Thomas Graves

1 minute ago, Rick McTague said:

Actually, reading that post, Robin's conclusion is that it was Carl Jones.

MY BAD.

--  TG

18 minutes ago, Rick McTague said:

True of the female African Americans, but the male's head is behind the left hand column of the alcove of the building, right?  You only see like 2/3 of his head.

The Black man's name is ROY LEWIS.

Credit: Robin Unger

--  TG

35 minutes ago, Rick McTague said:

In Altgens 6, there is a figure of an African-American male's head facing east directly in front of Shelley, behind the front of the building, in the alcove area, at his chest level.  Where is that person in the lower screen shot showing PM, and in the color picture Andrej posted?

Thanks

Rick

Rick,

That African American is much closer to the camera that the people on the steps.

--  TG

1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Andrej,

Could Prayer Man be fiddling with his purse?

(Only semi-sarcastic)

--  TG

39 minutes ago, Robin Unger said:

  (photos)

Thanks, Robin.

--  TG

13 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

That would include Roy Truly, Marrion Baker, Will Fritz, and Jim Bookhout. (And if Fritz and Bookhout weren't lying, then Oswald himself lied about encountering the policeman on the SECOND floor.)

Now, I wonder which option is more likely to be correct:

All of the above people were liars....or Victoria Adams simply made an honest mistake about exactly how long it took her to get to the first floor?

Is that really a tough choice for you, Sandy?

David,

That's why it's important to try to determine whether or not: 1) the largish woman on-the-steps-20-seconds-after-the-assassination is indeed Gloria Calvery (and 1a. whether or not she's talking with Billy Lovelady on the steps, and 1b. whether or not, as Andrej claims, Bill Shelley can be seen on the steps), and 2) whether or not Molina, who claimed Calvery told him in "the lobby" that JFK had been shot, and who also claimed that he saw Baker enter the front door at the same time as he, Molina, was talking with Calvery, can be positively identified on the steps in Couch-Darnell or Weigman or ...

Because if Baker and Truly DID enter the building so soon after the assassination, then their encountering a guilty (or possibly even "set up") Oswald in the 2nd floor lunch room is more likely than if they had entered the building a minute or two later. 

--  TG 

10 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Excellent point, Tommy.

So much so it has inspired me to write up a quickie presentation on it.

 

Sandy,

Someone should invite The Sixth Floor Museum's Stephen "Smilin'-n'-Noddin'" Fagin to join the Forum.

Smiling Out Loud,

--  TG

12 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Why in heaven's name would we trust someone's 55-year-old memory when we have films and photos to gather information from directly?

Also we have Calvery's son who certainly knew his father's height. That alone (well, along with the films) proves that the woman you believe to be Calvery is too short.

 

Sandy,

We must ask ourselves why in the world Stella Mae Jacob, who worked the billing department of the Texas School Book Company, is hanging out with "Westbrook" of the Southwestern Publishing Company, and "Calvery" of the Southwestern Publishing Company, a minute or two after the assassination, instead of with her Texas School Book Company colleagues Gloria Jeanne Holt (who also worked in the billing department), and Sharron Simmons (who worked as a clerk for the Texas School Book Company), especially since they had witnessed the tragedy together.

--  TG

1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

In fact, it seems that not only Billy Lovelady is on steps in Darnell but also, not surprising, Bill Shelley. Bill Shelley stands at the spot on the top landing which he also occupied in Altgens6 and Wiegman film. The lady wearing a dark headscarf appears to stand as if talking while the lady wearing a white headscarf is moving continuously up the steps over successive frames in Darnell. 

Andrej,

Is your Shelley the man in the coat and tie, or the person behind him?

--  TG

Just now, Bart Kamp said:

No Tommy, you and Sandy are, and this is the end of it for me, you do not provide anything to the table only your opinion. it's worthless.

If you two are so certain then do what Robin Unger suggested and contact the 6FM or Westbrook direct and dig it out.

There is no need to drag your rear all over the EF carpet trying to convince everyone as no one has joined your club.

And please stop spamming this forum.

Bye Bye, Bart!

--  TG

On 3/26/2018 at 6:46 PM, Thomas Graves said:

 

I will hereby take the liberty of casting Sandy's and Bart's and Andrej's and Michael Walton's votes for them, based on what they said a year ago on the same issue.

 

Question:

Which one of the two women in the three-photo column does the crying gal in Darnell more closely resemble:

#1 -- "Miss High School Portraits"

-- or --

#2 -- "Miss Styling Glasses" ?

 

Sandy: #1

Bart: #2

Andrej: #1

Walton:  #1

Me:  #1

Andrews (if I understand correctly):  #1

 

SO, as of right now, it's five "Miss High School Portraits" to only one "Miss Stylin' Glasses"!

Anyone else care to vote, or shall I declare "Miss High School Portraits" the winner?

 

--  TG

 

PS   Don't be shy!

 

bumped

4 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

Nice try Sandy, but it amounts to sod all.

It is Calvery.

Bart.

You're mistaken.

--  TG

2 hours ago, Robin Unger said:

Are you seriously telling me, that you think this tall heavy set woman is Gloria Calvery.

 

Yes, Robin.  That is what Sandy and I are seriously telling you. 

You sound incredulous.  Why is that?

--  TG

On 1/20/2018 at 5:26 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

Bart doesn't think there was enough time for Gloria Calvery to get back to the steps and be talking to Lovelady at the time we see Baker running across the extension. Bart claims she had only 20 seconds to do so.

In another thread I told Bart that I'd heard that the time lapse was more like 30 seconds. I then did a simple analysis showing that Gloria could easily have made it to the TSBD steps by the time we see her there. Which Bart just ignored.

But beside that, we have this photographic proof that Calvery and her friend, Woman in All White, indeed did have time to return to the steps:

 

 

Last year we did a thorough search and found only one woman in the TSBD area wearing all white, including a white scarf. There she is above, first as a spectator as shown in the Z-film (inset), and then on the TSBD steps in Darnell. She can be seen in the Darnell film pulling on the arm of the woman next to her as she continues walking up the steps. Not surprisingly, the coloring of this other woman's clothes matches that of the large woman standing near Woman in all White in Zapruder... the woman Tommy and I had earlier identified as Gloria Calvery.

As for whether or not Lovelady left the steps before Gloria arrived, the fact that he remains facing the road makes me think that he did not leave the steps. The reason I've written that he left the steps is only because Frazier testified that he did. Reading everybody's testimonies lead me to believe the following: Shelley left the steps first. He was followed by Lovelady, Pauline Sanders, and probably also Sarah Stanton. For some reason Lovelady returned to the steps before going far. Meanwhile Shelley bumped into Gloria Calvery on the concrete island and the two of them returned to the steps.

But it's possible that Frazier was wrong and that Lovelady did not leave the steps. In fact, this is a strong possibility if Frazier revealed this only later, in his WC testimony. Because he may have participated in the BIG LIE, that Shelley and Lovelady left the steps, only to return in the west door to be seen there by Victoria Adams.

It's possible that Gloria returned to the steps without Bill Shelley, and he returned later. And that's why we don't see him in Darnell.

 

Excellent post, Sandy, and more than deserving of a "bump" in my humble opinion.

--  TG

1 hour ago, Robin Unger said:

I admitted 6-months ago that i was incorrect when i originally labelled the Zapruder and Cabluck images in my gallery.

I then deleted the incorrectly labelled images from my gallery.

 

and yet you still continue to post the incorrectly labelled images, even after i freely admitted that i had made an error in my original spectator identifications.

Robin,

Have you finally correctly labeled Stella Mae Jacob, Gloria Jeanne Holt, and Sharron Simmons?

If so, my bad. 

But at least in my above post I suggested that the mislabeling was done in the past, wouldn't you agree?

--  TG

EDIT:  I just now looked at your recently re-labeled trio of women in the frame from the Darnell clip, and I'm sorry to say that the only one you got right is Stella Mae Jacob. 

But at least you're making progress, Robin, because iirc for many years you had those three women (Jacob, Holt, and Simmons) mislabeled as "Calvary, Hicks, and Reed"!

What in the world influenced you to get self-described Native American *Stella Mae Jacob* right this time, anyway?  The fact that she's dark complected and has black hair and a classic Native-American nose?

Haven't you ever wondered where the two gals she said she was with (Gloria Jeanne Holt and Sharron Simmons) ... are in that Darnell clip?

What the heck happened Stella Mae's co-workers?!

Has it ever crossed your mind, Robin, that Stella Mae Jacob might have been walking with Holt and Simmons in that Darnell clip which was shot a minute or two after the assassination?

Have you ever noticed how gosh-darned similar Holt looks in that 1963 high school photo of her (not the 1962 one!) to the crying gal in Darnell (especially when she's actually got her eyes open and is looking at the camera)?

59 minutes ago, Robin Unger said:

Karen Westbrook identified two bystanders.

She identified herself as the woman wearing the blue scarf.

and she also identified the red headed woman standing next to her as Gloria Calvery.

 

 

 

Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.

Robin,

The problem is, Mrs. Westbrook-Scranton tried to identify herself and her "red haired" friend from behind and fifty-five years after the fact.

(It's interesting that she wasn't sure who the dark-haired gal was, don't you think?)

Lot's of people have red or redish-colored hair, Robin.  If Westbrook-Scranton remembers correctly that her old pal had "red" hair, then it's a shame that the real Gloria Calvery was wearing a headscarf that day.

Do you really think that long-faced gal wearing the blue headscarf is the same person as square or round-faced Westbrook-Scranton?

--  TG

3 hours ago, Linda Giovanna Zambanini said:

Hello Tommy, 
Well that's your opinion; I have mine.  Meanwhile, back to the facts at hand with the Crying Trio. Tommy, how do you square Holt's very short hair in her '63 yrbk photo with the crying woman in the trio who has beaucoup hair? 

 

Hi Linda,

Well, she had really fast-growing hair and more than a year to grow it (if the photo was taken early in the school year)?

She was wearing a wig?

(Beats the heck out of me.)

Now some questions for you, Linda:

1)  Do you agree that the dark-complected gal (whom for many years was mislabeled by Robin Unger & Co. as "Gloria Calvary" (sic), and believed by many researchers to have been an Afro-American woman) is, in reality, self-described Native American Stella Mae Jacob?

2)  How long after the assassination was the Cabluck photo taken? Not so long after the final shot as to preclude your Calvery from getting to the "island" or the steps (or wherever) to talk with Shelley and Lovelady before they started bookin' it down Elm Street Extension?  And not too late to talk with Joe Molina in the "lobby" around the same time that Joe said Officer Baker entered the building?

3)  Why isn't your Calvery wearing her otherwise ever-present "styling glasses" in the Darnell clip?

--  TG

45 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

  .....

Hello, old friend. (Linda, I mean.)

I'm sorry to say that I'm terribly disappointed that you've not only gotten Gloria Jean Holt confused for Westbrook's "Calvery, sans glasses," but that you've also confused Jacob, Holt, and Simmons with three completely different gals in that photo by Allen!

--  TG

4 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Tommy,

If we were to do a study on Gloria Calvery's height, I'm pretty sure that Bart's Calvery would be far shorter than the real Calvery. Just look at the height of our Calvery in the Z-frame.

Gloria's husband was 6 ft. tall according to their son. That would make Gloria 5' 8" to 5' 9" tall. Or 5' 7" to 5' 8" tall in low heels.

 

Look at how tall our Gloria is... tallest woman there. 5 ' 8" seems about right.

 

 

Now look how tall Bart's Gloria is:

 

 

Wow, look how tall Bart's Westbrook is! She must be close to 6 ft herself if that is Bart's Gloria standing next to her.

 

(Gee, I wonder why Bart's Gloria isn't wearing those glasses she ALWAYS wears.)

 

Sandy,

Being fair-minded but ignorant and lazy, I gotta ask this question: were they walking on a level sidewalk there, or on the slight slope that comprises the right side of the Grassy Knoll near the curb?

--  TG

21 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

I think that even Bart believes they are the same three women.

They look the same to me.

 

Sandy and David,

What are the chances of finding two different groups of three women who are individually dressed the same way in two photos that are taken two or three minutes apart and in the same area, and who have the same individual hair color and hairstyles in both photos?

David, the difference it makes is this: If it can be shown that Gloria Calvery, whom Lovelady in his first day affidavit stated he started talking to on the steps right after the assassination (and right before Shelley and he allegedly went walking down Elm Street Extension to the railway yard and thence to the rear of the TSBD first floor), was standing close enough to the TSBD during the motorcade to be able to run there within twenty-five seconds (and be "captured" there in Couch-Darnell), then this casts into doubt Lovelady's and Shelley's claim that they walked down to the railway yard (at least when they say they did) because although the two men in Couch-Darnell who APPEAR to resemble them seem to be walking towards the railroad yard, they are doing so  WHILE OUR POSITIVELY IDENTIFIED CALVERY IS SIMULTANEOUSLY TALKING WITH SOMEONE WHO LOOKS AN AWFUL LOT LIKE LOVELADY ON THE STEPS.  The possibility that Calvery is talking to Lovelady on the steps in Couch-Darnell cast doubt on Shelley's and Lovelady's timing of events in their later statements (if not their mysterious actions, themselves) and lends more credence to Vicki Adam's estimation of how long it took her to walk down the wooden staircase to the first floor.  As you know, this is critically important as it bears on whether or not Oswald could have come down from the sixth floor to the second floor lunch room during the same period of time without being seen or heard by Adams and her colleague.

Calvery's being caught on the steps in Couch-Darnell so soon (20 to 25 seconds) after the assassination also reflects on how soon after the assassination Officer Baker entered the TSBD.  For the simple reason that Joe Molina claimed to have entered the building at about the same time Baker did, and said that he did so right before or right after (going from memory here) having encountered, "in the lobby," a near-hysterical Calvery and the gal who was with her (the Woman In White who appears to be pulling Calvery away from Lovelady in Couch-Darnell?).

As you know, if Baker entered the building shortly before or after Molina encountered Calvery and friend, and if Molina encountered them right after they had arrived at the steps (which we know from Couch Darnell was within 25 seconds of the assassination), then it makes more plausible the possibility that Baker (and Truly, who was near the front steps in Couch-Darnell) really DID arrive at the second floor lunch room as soon as they said they did ...

--  TG

19 minutes ago, Mike Kilroy said:

The CIA risked a lot over the decades to keep this secret. Helms never told the WC as CIA liaison.  Joannides never told the HSCA as Congressional liaison.  Helms perjured himself to the HSCA when he said he knew nothing more related to the assassination.  If discovered, both would've faced obstruction of justice charges and prison and the CIA might have been dismantled.  In fact, I think both men were put in those liaison positions precisely for what they needed to keep secret.

The agency later fooled the JFK Records folks from including Joannides' files in that release.  And they are still fighting lawsuits from Jefferson Morley to release the files.

You don't take these kinds of measures for decades over "embarrassment," IMO.   What's left to be embarrassed about?  We've known for nearly 2 decades they lied about the DRE. 

My personal belief is they are hiding guilt of some kind.  Unless they provide a better explanation someday, I'll stick with that.  They've earned it.

Okay.

--  TG

5 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

The Gary Underhill Scenario:

From Larry Hancock's Someone Would Have Talked, pg 496:

<quote on, emphasis added>

[Former CIA employee Gary] Underhill's concern was that he had become aware of a "clique" within the CIA--a clique
dealing with weapons and gun-running and making money. These individuals had Far Eastern connections, narcotics was
mentioned, supposedly the clique was manipulating political intrigues to serve their own ends. Underhill believed
that these individuals had been involved with JFK's murder; he felt that JFK had become aware of their dealings and
was about to move against them in some fashion. He also believed that members of the clique knew that Underhill was
aware of their dealings and that his own life could well be in jeopardy.

<quote off>

Supposedly?

Supposed by whom?

By Underhill?

Or by Hancock?

Both?

--  TG

I will hereby take the liberty of casting Sandy's and Bart's and Andrej's and Michael Walton's votes for them, based on what they said a year ago on the same issue.

Question:

Which one of the two women in the three-photo column does the crying gal in Darnell more closely resemble:

#1 -- "Miss High School Portraits"

-- or --

#2 -- "Miss Styling Glasses" ?

Sandy: #1

Bart: #2

Andrej: #1

Walton:  #1

Me:  #1

Andrews (if I understand correctly):  #1

SO, as of right now, it's five "Miss High School Portraits" to only one "Miss Stylin' Glasses"!

Anyone else care to vote, or shall I declare "Miss High School Portraits" the winner?

--  TG

PS   Don't be shy!

11 minutes ago, Mike Kilroy said:

That's a good question that I don't have an answer to.  Both Hosty's later book and the CIA's 201 file say the agencies considered Kostikov as part of Dept. 13.  Who labelled him that first would be an interesting thing to know but it's not critical to my central point:

o The CIA told MC station to essentially stand down on LHO with the "maturing effect" memo that used two-year-old State Dept language.  Even though they knew LHO - or someone claiming to be LHO - had spoken with Kostikov in MC.  And even though they knew of LHO's recent escapades with CIA assets in NO.  After the assassination, the CIA let investigators know about Kostikov and Oswald. This helped scare LBJ away from a real investigation.

o On the other hand, when it came to the relationship between the CIA and DRE, all agency parties with that knowledge kept their mouths shut.  THAT information, if known by the WC, might have led to an investigation into the DRE and its CIA handlers.  So this withholding of information by the CIA also stopped any real investigation of the agency or its assets.

Again, highly suspicious to me if not incriminating.

Mike,

Do you think there could possibly a reason for that nondisclosure which is not directly related to the assassination?

--  TG

1 hour ago, Mike Kilroy said:

Thought I had read San Diego in one of his files.  But his 201 files says Ensenada and Tijuana.

I don't think it matters if Kostikov was actually Dept 13 or not.  He was presented that way to FBI and then to LBJ, as is my understanding, and that was instrumental in halting any real investigation and spawning the WC to conduct its intentional but 'benign' - at least to Warren and others - whitewash.

Who did the "presenting," pre-assassination? 

FBI to CIA, or vice-versa?

--  TG