Thomas Graves

Being the kind of person who believes in giving credit where credit is due ... 

I would like to say that I am currently in communication with Brian Doyle, the researcher who deserves full credit for discovering that the "Running Woman" in Couch-Darnell is Margaret "Peggy" Burney, and who claims that he recently independently confirmed, by speaking on the phone with Gloria Calvery's son, that Gloria Calvery is the tall woman visible above the windshield in Betzner3 (as I posted unbeknownst-to-Brian on the Forum last March), and that Gloria Jean Calvery is the tall woman who is standing directly to the left of John Templin in the Robin Unger-labeled Z-Frame. 

Brian Doyle recently referred me to the 2013 Sixth Floor Museum interview of Buell Wesley Frazier that I referenced in an earlier post in which Frazier, starting at the 14:00 mark, talks about a "crying woman (Gloria Calvery?) who came by the steps after the assassination and announced that the president had been shot," and how he (Frazier) had turned to a "Sarah" at that time and confirmed with her that they had heard their disbelieving ears correctly. 

Brian Doyle has told me that he believes that Frazier's "Sarah" was none other than TSBD employee Sarah Stanton, and that Sarah Stanton has, therefore, been misidentified by serious researchers as "Prayer Man."

--  TG

PS  And I must say that ... gulp ... I'm inclined to agree with Brian Doyle on this scenario.

5 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Tommy:

The possibility that some researchers, including myself, pursue  is that Prayer Man was Lee Harvey Oswald. You asked the right question: who was Prayer Man if every of Depository employees' whereabouts is well known and none of them reported to stand in the western part of the doorway,  It is the matter of debate and research to establish the body height of this person which I believe was 5'9''. This body height would qualify this person to be a man. So, we likely have here a Caucasian, a man, measuring exactly as Oswald measured, and displaying a hairline similar to Oswald's hairline. Mr. Frazier, to my knowledge, was not able or willing to say who Prayer Man was, however, he clearly testified something which was not true during his Warren Commission testimony: how can he then be trusted in this particular issue? To recall, Mr. Frazier said that he had returned to the Depository and went to the basement soon after the shooting. However, in his later interviews, Mr. Frazier said he actually had seen Oswald walking on the Houston street because he (Mr. Frazier) was in front of the Depository entrance. While Mr. Frazier always spoke nicely about Lee Oswald, all his statements, including those regarding the package Oswald brought to work, were very damning for Lee Harvey Oswald. My point is that Mr. Frazier still covers his role in framing Lee Harvey Oswald and he would not answer the question who Prayer Man was even if it were Lee Harvey Oswald.   

Andrej,

Frazier said he returned to the Depository from where?  From the front steps, or from somewhere else?

--  TG

1 minute ago, Trygve V. Jensen said:

Your nr. 3 - entry in the list. 

Will always repeat: ( I do not necessarily agree with the views expressed, -- in any of my videos. Just for the sake of sharing information. If it is false, or correct, - others will decide for themselves.)

Once again, can you think of anyone who isn't already on the list?

--  TG

8 minutes ago, Trygve V. Jensen said:

Your nr. 4 - entry in the list. 

( I do not necessarily agree with the views in any of my videos. Just for the sake of sharing information. If it is false, or correct, - others will decide for themselves.)

Can you think of anyone who isn't already on the list?

--  TG

1)  James Angleton 

2)  Allen Dulles (retired, but hey!)

3)  David Phillips

4)  Bill Harvey

5)  David Sanchez Morales

6)  Rip Robertson

7)  David Ferrie

8)  Guy Banister

9)  Ruth Paine

10)  Michael Paine

11)  George DeMohrenschildt

12)  Roy Truly

13)  Buell Wesley Frazier

14)  Bernard (Macho) Baker

15)  Ann Egerter

... to be continued

Whom am I forgetting?

There must be many more.

--  TG

Edit:  Oh yeah!  ...... 

4 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Tommy:

there were two ladies on the top landing who have been missing for 54 years. They were Mrs. Sarah Stanton and Mrs. Pauline Sanders. One of the ladies was short and was standing very close to the glass door in the eastern part of the doorway.  This lady was not seen in Algens6 because the view of her figure was obstructed by Bill Shelley. She was not seen in in Wiegman film because this film never captured the eastern part of the doorway where she stood. The short lady was not seen in most frames of Darnell because she was behind Mr. Molina who just happened to step down one step and that was the reason for seeing her in one of the final frames of Darnell film. This short lady, according to the testimonies, could be Pauline Sanders.

The other lady who by exclusion was Mrs. Sarah Stanton is seen in Altgens6. Her figure is largely hidden by Billy Lovelady, however, a small bright blob located between the heads of Mr. Lovelady and Mr. Shelley suggests that there was a person in that location in Altgens6. There are faint contours of that lady in the shadow behind Mr. Shelley's right shoulder can be seen in Darnell. The point is that that frame in Darnell shows not only the short lady )Sanders) and this other lady (Stanton) but also Prayer Man. Thus, Prayer man could not be Mrs. Stanton as there were no other ladies besides Stanton and Sanders on the top landing.

You can read details here: https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/   or in the thread on this forum: "Mrs. Sanders, Mrs. Stanton, where are you?"

Andrej,

Did Frazier ever say he saw Oswald on the front steps?

Do you believe him?

If so, who was "Prayer Man"?

--  TG

On 2/16/2017 at 2:36 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

  .......

From looking at the photographic evidence of Altgens 6, Wiegman Frame and Darnell Frame, and cross referencing it with the 'testimony' of those who said they were on the steps at the time  it's reasonable to say that 10 of them have been identified; Molina, Williams, Dean, Reese, Shelley, Lovelady, Jones, Frazier, Davis and McCully.

Who is left over? Stanton and Sanders

If we look at what each of them said as to where they stood;

Stanton: says she was with Sanders, Shelley, Lovelady and Williams.
Sanders: says she took up a position on the top steps and that Stanton was standing next to her.

*Point of contention: Sanders said she was on the top step at the 'East' entrance!

*A point of interest; Molina: says he stood at the railings on the 'east side' of the building but does not recall who stood beside him but does know that Sanders viewed the motorcade.

As we look at the photographic evidence of the steps, the 'east side' is the right hand side as we look at it, and the 'west side' is the left hand side as we look at it.

Molina was certainly correct about being on the 'east side' as that is backed up by the photographic evidence, Sanders can't be beside him because he mentions her after saying that he does not recall who stood beside him! From the photographic evidence the two people that stood 'beside' him look to be Williams (up left as we look at it) and either Davis or McCully (down right as we look a it). So when Sanders said she was at the 'east' entrance that is not backed up by the photographic evidence...

... what if then, when Sanders said 'east' she actually meant the opposite side from where Molina is. How could she make such an error? Look at a compass, which side is East as you look at it? To the right hand side! What if, then, Sanders, when she said she was on the 'east' side she meant the 'right hand side' (from her perspective - facing out) and thus she was in real terms standing on the 'west side' of the steps.

Sandy,

Could "Prayer Man" have been ... gasp ... Sarah Stanton?

Starting at the 34:00 mark in his 2013 Sixth Floor Museum interview (below), Buell Wesley Frazier says that, "before Shelley and Lovelady left the steps to walk towards the Triple Underpass," a "crying woman"  (Gloria Calvery?) "came by and said that the president had been shot."  Frazier then mentions in the interview that he turned towards a "Sarah" and that he and she kind of asked each other what the heck the woman had said.  (At one point he also says that after standing there "for a couple of minutes," he went down to "the first step where Lovelady was standing.")

Now, in a blown-up slow-mo (?) version of Couch-Darnell, you can actually see Frazier turn his head towards "Prayer Man."  

Question:  Are Frazier and "Prayer Man" talking to each other in Couch-Darnell? 

If so, couldn't that mean that "Prayer Man" wasn't a man at all, but Frazier's "Sarah"  i.e.,  ... Sarah Stanton?

--  TG

22 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Yes, please do.

These two are the best ones for discerning Stella Mae Jacob's darker (Native-American) complexion.

Credit: James Darnell.  From Robin Unger's photographic pages at JFK Assassination Forum

And this one is the best one for comparing with Gloria Jeanne Holt's (the gal in the middle) high school photo, if I can ever figure out a way to get my "screen capture" of it uploaded to this thread and others ...

--  TG

21 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

But the Z-Film portion of any comparison is only showing the BACKS of the women. Not the front. So how can you be sure? Do you think you got a "positive match" on the clothing? Or the hair style? Or hair color? Or some other distinguishing feature?

I'm not saying you guys are dead wrong on your attempted IDing of the women on Elm. But I'm somewhat skeptical about declaring a "positive identification" of the Elm Street ladies, since we can't see any of their faces.

David,

That's because you evidently weren't following our posts when they "hot off the press," and now, unfortunately, the $400-to-replace photos that were in them are gone ...

--  TG 

PS  I do remember that a year ago Sandy and I convinced Andrej Stancak that Robin Unger's "Hicks" (and, now, Karen Westbrook's buddy "Calvery") was Gloria Jeanne Holt.

 Why don't you ask him?

On 12/27/2016 at 2:09 PM, Michael Clark said:

Greetings, I was born and raised in the northeast USA. I graduated from the State University of NY with a BA in English. I am now a telecommunications technician. From a young age I was politically aware and had doubts about the official story on the assassination of JFK. In my late teens I began to do some reading on the subject. From the beginning of my college studies until last year I did not dig deeply into the JFKA. Last fall (2016) I dug in deeply and am now committed to keeping the events of the 60's and 70's fresh in my mind and to stay up to date on and continue my research. I want to thank the forum hosts for maintaining this forum and allowing me to participate.

A belated "Welcome to the Forum," Michael!

Are you on Facebook, by any chance?  Most everybody is these days, but I can't seem to find you.  Would love to become FB "friends" with you if you so desired.  (My FB page is very easy to find.)

SUNY has 64 campuses.  Which one did you graduate from if you don't mind my asking? 

--  TG

4 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

David,

Be careful... you are speaking from a position of ignorance. You haven't seen the photos we have.

For example, there IS a photo where we see them clearly from the front.

 

That's right, Sandy.  I'd forgotten about that one.  Thanks.

--  TG

30 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

 .....

And you feel confident that can make such a positive identification of that woman in the Z-Film, even though you can only see her FROM BEHIND, with no facial features available to view whatsoever?

Would you take such an identification to Vegas and bet the farm on it?

 

Yes I would, David.

Too bad you didn't see the photos and clips Sandy and I posted here about a year ago, and which have since disappeared.

--  TG

23 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

No, that's not correct. Simmons/Nelson never said "south side" (or north side). Her CD706 statement merely says she was "standing on the sidewalk on Elm Street".

 

No. And in my previous post, I acknowledged the fact that the Holt/Jacob "south side" statements were incorrect:

"I realize that somebody must have made an error when they said "south side" in those reports, because there's not a group of women standing on the SOUTH side of Elm halfway between Houston St. & the Underpass." -- DVP

 

Yes, apparently I did. I haven't been following very much of the Calvery/Lovelady/Prayer Man discussions. I just look in on them occasionally.

 

None of those things you just mentioned are thingsd that have been "realized" by me at any point in time right up to the present moment. (And I doubt that any such "realization" by anyone interested in the events of 11/22/63 really makes much difference--if any--when it comes to the Big Ticket questions relating to the assassination. (Do you?)

 

And you feel confident that can make such a positive identification of that woman in the Z-Film, even though you can only see her FROM BEHIND, with no facial features available to view whatsoever?

Would you take such an identification to Vegas and bet the farm on it?

David,

I thought you could read better than that.  Please read my post again.

You've never seen the Darnell clip showing Unger's (or somebody's) "Calvary (sic), Hicks, and Reed" walking back towards the TSBD?

I can no longer find that very short Darnell clip which was viewable on this forum about a year ago, but I can post two frames of it for you here.  Shall I do that for you, David? 

In one of them in particular, you can see that the woman who is labeled Calvary (sic) has a dark complexion and a classic Native American nose.  That's because that woman is not Thierry's and Roberdeau's and Unger's Gloria Calvery, and neither is it Westbrook's "Carol Reed ... maybe," but self-described Native American Stella Mae Jacob, instead.

The high school photos of Gloria Jeanne Holt are no longer on this forum, either.  But at least I had the presence of mind to take a "screen shot" of that Photobucket page when it was here, and if I can figure out how to take that screen shot and downsize it and upload it here, or e-mail it to Sandy for him to do that technical stuff, you will soon be able to see for yourself that Westbrook's "Calvery" was, indeed, Gloria Jeanne Holt.

--  TG

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

Hi Thomas Graves,

I'm sure you've researched all the TSBD employees a lot more than I have. (I've never really had a huge interest in trying to identify every single person in every film or photo....although, I admit, such an exercise can be rather entertaining at times.)

Now, maybe you're right and Karen Westbrook-Scranton is 100% wrong regarding the identities of the ladies in the Z-Film....but I'm wondering if you have any idea WHY both Stella Jacob and Gloria Jeanne Holt (in their respective and almost identically worded) FBI reports each (apparently) told the FBI that they each were standing on the SOUTH side of Elm Street during the motorcade?

I realize that somebody must have made an error when they said "south side" in those reports, because there's not a group of women standing on the SOUTH side of Elm halfway between Houston St. & the Underpass. The mistake must have come from either Jacob and Holt themselves, or (more likely) from the FBI, who no doubt had a lot to do with the identically worded phrases that appear in nearly all of the 73 statements we find in CD706. But I'm just wondering if you, or anyone, knows why the FBI (or Holt or Jacob) would say SOUTH when they so obviously meant to say NORTH?

Also --- How can you be so sure my yellow arrow is pointing to Nelson (nee Simmons) and not Westbrook? How can anybody know with 100% certainty who any of those women are? After all, there's no faces to identify in the Zapruder Film. I would tend to lean more toward Westbrook's own personal identification of (at least) herself in the Z-Film. That's not to say she couldn't have made a mistake too. Maybe she did. There are, after all, several ladies wearing scarves on Elm Street. But Karen's identification comes from a rare source---i.e., somebody who was THERE on 11/22/63.

David,

It wasn't only Jacob and Holt that said that, but their colleague Sharron Simmons (Nelson), too.

Since the wording in their three FBI statements is identical (iirc) regarding where they were during the assassination, I would say that maybe they were all three in the interview room at the same time, and the first one to give her statement made that simple, easy-to-make mistake, and the other two women "followed suit."  Either that, or the secretary who typed up their statements, after realizing that they had been together, somehow made that mistake for them.

Regardless, they all said they were standing near Elm Street.  Can you find three women close together on the south side of Elm Street in Zapruder or any of the other films / photographs?

Sandy and I and others went all over this subject about a year ago.

Apparently you missed it.

--  TG

You do realize that Robin Unger's "Calvary" (sic) in the labeled Z-Frame is dark-complected, don't you?  As is discernable in a "side profile" from the Z-Film of that woman's face, as well as the way she looks in a Darnell clip that was made, a few minutes after the assassination, as she and her two lighter-skinned colleagues were walking back towards the TSBD?

 And you do realize, don't you, that Stella Mae Jacob described herself as a Native American?

Have you seen Gloria Jeanne Holt's high school photos?  (They've disappeared from the Forum.)  If you had, you would already know that Westbrook's "Calvery" is actually Gloria Jenne Holt.

Etc.

On 3/24/2018 at 10:07 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

 

This is incredible.

Brian Doyle has been claiming for months if not years that Gloria Calvery (who we all know -- or should know -- was a large woman) is the same person as Running Woman (who we all know -- or should know -- was a slender woman). I don't know why he thought that, but he did. And you know Doyle... he NEVER changes his mind once he makes it up.

And then a miracle happens... Doyle changes his mind! Why? Because he got the truth from someone who would know... Gloria Calvery's own son. Her son pointed to the very same woman in (Betzner 3) who Thomas, Prudhomme, and I have been pointing to for a year as the woman we believe to be Gloria Calvery.

And so now what? We have Bart saying Doyle is fibbing? Oh come on man! Why would Doyle do that?? I can't even imagine the amount of pride Doyle had to swallow to make that admission. It just makes no sense.

Everything points to the large young woman in the Z-frames being Gloria Calvery. Bart Kamp is the only holdout.

 

You're right, Sandy.

Brian told me by FB Messenger yesterday that he'd spoken with Mr. Calvery on the phone, and that Mr. Calvery had directed his attention to the tall woman in black, above Queen Mary's windshield, in Betzner3, and informed Brian that that woman was his (Mr. Calvery's) mother.
 

I commend Brian Doyle for swallowing his pride (he asked me to give you his apologies, btw) and confirm that you and I and Bob were right all along about Gloria's being on the steps of the TSBD about 25 seconds after the assassination.

--  TG

6 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

FWIW....

According to another TSBD employee, Karen Westbrook, the person whom some people here think is Gloria Calvery (wearing a scarf on her head) can't be Gloria. Westbrook, in the 2017 interview below, says that she and Calvery can be identified just to the left (east) of the Stemmons sign in the Zapruder Film----and Gloria C. was not wearing a scarf. Karen seems pretty positive that the red-headed woman to her left in the Z-Film is Gloria Calvery (although Karen repeatedly refers to her as "Gloria Calvert" [with a T], instead of using her correct last name, Calvery).

 

 

Related Debate:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2017/12/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-121.html

 

 

Yes, David, I'm very aware of the Westbrook interview.

Haven't you been following my posts on Calvery, Holt, Jacob, et al.?

By the way, your big yellow arrow isn't pointing to Karen Westbrook (or to Carol Reed, for that matter) in the Z-Frame,, but to Sharron Simmons, one of self-described Native American Stella Mae Jacob's colleagues.

Regarding light-skinned and perhaps red-haired Calvery's location during the motorcade (as well as Westbrook's own), Westbrook-Scranton was seriously mistaken.  As was for so many years and in a different way, Thierry Speth, Don Roberdeau (he finally got it right on his revised map), and Robin Unger. 

Which is totally understandable for Westbrook-Scranton to do, seeing as how her Sixth Floor Museum interview (above) not only was made some fifty-five years after the fact, but that the figures by the Stemmons Sign are not visible from the front, but from the behind.

--  TG

On 2/18/2017 at 4:36 PM, Thomas Graves said:

What about the possibility that Shelley went for a widdle stroll all by him widdle self, while Lovelady stayed on the steps and was caught in Couch-Darnell as he was semi-crouching (and talking or listening to someone else there? edit: Gloria "Big Girl" Calvery!), and then slowly rising to his "full height" (lol), right below Prayer Person's right elbow?

Why did Shelley and Lovelady have to stay together, wherever that might have been?  Because they later said that they had?  

--  Tommy

edited and bumped

--  TG

On 3/25/2017 at 5:43 PM, Thomas Graves said:

Let me start with Gloria Calvery. 

1 ) From her high school and wedding photographs, we have a good idea what Gloria Calvery looked like.  We know she was a full-faced, always glasses-wearing, large-framed gal, and that she was almost as tall as her husband.

 

2 )  We know from Calvery's FBI statement (and from those of the people mentioned in her statement, and from their statements) that she was standing, with four other ladies, "on the north side of Elm Street" "about half-way between Houston Street and the Triple Underpass." 

(Open the document, press "ctrl" and "F" at the same time, type calvery into the drop-down search box)  https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf

 

3 )  Having eliminated the mislabeled "Gloria Calvary," "Karan Hicks," and Carol Reed" from consideration in the labeled Z-Frame below, and believing that the real Calvery, Hicks, and Reed must, due to what they'd said in their FBI statements, be fairly near "Calvary, Hicks, and Reed" in said Z-Frame, Sandy Larsen and I started to focus our attention on the four headscarf-wearing ladies standing together ten-to-twenty feet up the sidewalk from the CalvAry Group, (not realizing at the time that there is a fifth head-scarf wearing lady -- whom I believe to be "June" Inez Juanita Hart Dishong -- standing in front of the woman labeled "Jane Berry") because we noticed that of the twenty or-so women who are visible on the north side of Elm Street in that frame, only five of them are wearing headscarves (one of whom is my recently-identified, light-blue-scarf wearing Sharron Simmons at the far right of the frame).  I had a hunch that co-workers Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Westbrook might all be wearing them as an unconscious example of "group bonding" or "conformity".

The tall, black headscarf-wearing woman standing to the right of "Peggy Burney" was of particular interest to me because no one seemed to know enough about her as to even hazard a guess about her identity!

 

4 )  I found a photograph, taken during the motorcade by Hugh Betzner, which shows the same tall, black headscarf-wearing Mystery Woman standing in the background, on the other side of the "Queen Mary" follow-up car, and Sandy and I agreed that not only was she wearing her dark hair like the documented Gloria Calvery wore hers, but that she also appears to be wearing glasses.

Here she is, standing next to a "short" guy, John Templin, between the second and third Secret Service agents from the left. She's wearing a dark-colored blouse and headscarf. 

Betzner 3

The "short" guy she's standing "next to" is John Templin (who goes to Dealey Plaza every year on 11/22 with his friend, Ernest Brandt. Both of them are labeled correctly in the Z-Frame, below).

5 ) Then Sandy and I started looking at the famous Couch-Darnell film (whom Robert Prudhomme and others were convinced showed Lovelady rising from a squat or leaning-over position to full heigh to the TSBD steps), in which we believed we had previously spotted Billy Lovelady talking with a woman, dressed in a dark-colored blouse and headscarf, in front of him on the steps about 30 seconds after the assassination.  I noticed that this woman was being physically "urged" to walk up the steps by the woman to her right, and Sandy noticed that the woman doing the "urging" was wearing a white dress and a white headscarf, just like the woman labeled "Betty Thornton" in the aforementioned Z-Frame.  Finally, I noticed that the woman "being urged" by this woman in white was not only wearing a dark-colored blouse and headscarf like the largish "Mystery Woman" on Elm Street, but that she was wearing a lighter-colored, boldly-patterned skirt like her, as well.

6 ) Bearing in mind that William Shelley said that he'd walked from the TSBD steps to the concrete "Island" immediately after the assassination and encountered a crying Gloria Calvery there, Sandy and I believe that the woman Lovelady is talking to on the front steps is Gloria Calvery, and that after Shelley left her to run inside the TSBD to call his wife, Gloria walked across Elm Street Extension to enter her workplace, the TSBD, and encountered Lovelady there on the steps and started talking with him there, as "captured" in Couch-Darnell.  Please note that a bit of Calvery's patterned, lighter-colored skirt can be glimpsed to the right of the dark-suited Turning Man's shoulder, and that although her dressed-in-white friend / colleague is walking up the steps while pulling on Clavery's right arm, Calvery remains stationary, talking to a man who looks an awful lot like Billy Nolan Lovelady. 

--  Tommy

[to be continued]

bumped

5 hours ago, David Josephs said:

It would have to follow then that Leonard McCoy was also KGB as it was he who reopened the conclusions about Nosenko and convinced CIA He was for real....   Without McCoy's paper none of this happens and we go on believing Golitsyn.

His analysis and summary of his work are in the recent release...

I just find it hard to talk Nosenko and not include McCoy....  

David,

Excellent point.

Scroll down to some of what Bagley had to say about Leonard McCoy in his PDF Ghosts of the Spy Wars, a 2014 follow-up to his excellent 2007 book Spy Wars: Moles, Mysteries, and Deadly Games :

On 4/11/2007 at 8:36 AM, Douglas Caddy said:

Ghost of the Cold War

By David Ignatius

Wednesday, April 11, 20075

Washington Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...id=opinionsbox1

Roll back the tape to January 1964: America is still reeling from the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, and investigators don't know what to make of the fact that the apparent assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald, lived for three years in the Soviet Union. Did the Russians have any role in JFK's death?

Then a KGB defector named Yuri Nosenko surfaces in Geneva and tells his CIA handlers that he knows the Soviets had nothing to do with Oswald. How is Nosenko so sure? Because he handled Oswald's KGB file, and he knows the spy service had never considered dealing with him.

For many spy buffs, the Nosenko story has always seemed too good to be true. How convenient that he defected at the very moment the KGB's chiefs were eager to reassure the Warren Commission about Oswald's sojourn in Russia. What's more, Nosenko brought other goodies that on close examination were also suspicious -- information that seemed intended to divert the CIA's attention from the possibility that its codes had been broken and its inner sanctum penetrated.

The Nosenko case is one of the gnarly puzzles of Cold War history. It vexed the CIA's fabled counterintelligence chief, James Jesus Angleton, to the end of his days. And it has titillated a generation of novelists and screenwriters -- most recently providing the background for Robert De Niro's sinuous spy film "The Good Shepherd."

Now the CIA case officer who initially handled Nosenko, Tennent H. Bagley, has written his own account. And it is a stunner. It's impossible to read this book without developing doubts about Nosenko's bona fides. Many readers will conclude that Angleton was right all along -- that Nosenko was a phony, sent by the KGB to deceive a gullible CIA.

That's not the official CIA judgment, of course. The agency gave Nosenko its stamp of approval in 1968 and again in 1976. Indeed, as often happens, the agency itself became the villain, with critics denouncing Angleton, Bagley and other skeptics for their harsh interrogation of Nosenko. In its eagerness to tidy up the mess, the agency even invited Nosenko to lecture to its young officers about counterintelligence.

It happens that I met Angleton in the late 1970s, in the twilight of his life in the shadows. I was a reporter in my late 20s, and it occurred to me to invite the fabled counterintelligence chief to lunch. (Back then, even retired super-spooks listed their numbers in the phone book. I can still hear in my mind his creepily precise voice on the answering machine: "We are not in, at present. . . .") Angleton arrived at his favorite haunt, the Army and Navy Club on Farragut Square, cadaverously thin and dressed in black.

He might have been playing himself in a movie. He displayed all the weird traits that were part of the Angleton legend, clasping his Virginia Slims cigarette daintily between thumb and forefinger and sipping his potent cocktail through a long, thin straw.

And he was still obsessed with the Nosenko case. He urged me, in a series of interviews, to pursue another Russian defector code-named "Sasha," who he was convinced was part of the skein of KGB lies. The man ran a little picture-framing shop in Alexandria and seemed an unlikely master spy. I gradually concluded that Angleton had lost it, and after I wrote that he himself had once been accused of being the secret mole, he stopped returning my calls.

Bagley's book, "Spy Wars," should reopen the Nosenko case. He has gathered strong evidence that the Russian defector could not have been who he initially said he was; that he could not have reviewed the Oswald file; that his claims about how the KGB discovered the identities of two CIA moles in Moscow could not have been right. According to Bagley, even Nosenko eventually admitted that some of what he had told the CIA was false.

What larger purpose did the deception serve? Bagley argues that the KGB's real game was to steer the CIA away from realizing that the Russians had recruited one American code clerk in Moscow in 1949 and perhaps two others later on. The KGB may also have hoped to protect an early (and to this day undiscovered) mole inside the CIA.

Take a stroll with Bagley down paranoia lane and you are reminded just how good the Russians are at the three-dimensional chess game of intelligence. For a century, their spies have created entire networks of illusion -- phony dissident movements, fake spy services -- to condition the desired response.

Reading Bagley's book, I could not help thinking: What mind games are the Russians playing with us today?

I've just now come upon this 2007 post by Douglas Caddy, so I'm bumping it for y'all.

--  TG

On 2/14/2017 at 12:34 AM, Robin Unger said:

As I understand it, Bob Prudhomme's Lovelady is supposedly the person seen against the west wall, just under Prayermans right elbow.

(edited and bumped 3/24/18)

Robin,

That's correct.

In some of the un-blurry "frames" of this GIF you can see his white t-shirt under the darker shirt, his eyes and mouth, and hair on the side of his bald forehead.

I believe you can even make out some of the plaid pattern of his shirt.

--  TG

PS  Also note that Buell Frazier is turning his head to his right and appears to be talking with the person in the corner.

4 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

About a year ago, Robin Unger posted this photo with the caption "Side Profile"

 

Thanks, Robin.

That side profile of your mislabeled "Gloria Calvary" (third person from the right; actually self-described Native American Stella Mae Jacob) shows how dark-complected Jacob was.

--  TG   (3/23/18)

Left to Right:  Stella Mae Jacob, Gloria Jeanne Holt, Sharron Simmons.

On 1/28/2016 at 1:43 AM, Robin Unger said:

 .....

dupe

11 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Oh good for you Tommy you squeezed out another post, well done!

Doyle got his selfie stick out and proved he had met Groden, but did he actually talk to him?

Did he record it? Nope.

Did he discuss Prayer Man and did that convo yield anything substantial? If he had then he would have shouted it from the rooftops in Aug 2016, but he did not. He mentioned it off the cuff almost a year later. If he had the convo with him he would post it at DPF while still being Albert And now you believe he talked to Calvery, why has he not shown the recording/proof ,on his prayer Woman page??? Doyle has been economical with the truth since day 1. You just ate his lemons.

Check your facts Tommy, keep re-checking.

 

Is it not time you atone for your BS Tommy, I mean that you have been dead wrong about Calvery and that you turned this forum into a mess because of it? You and Sandy Larsen....and your wacko beliefs! And now you have railroaded this thread as well and for what, to obfuscate the previous mess? Do me a favour do something productive for a change instead of being an internet warrior every day.....it is becoming hella boring!

Bart, 

Two serious questions:

1)  Have you been able to spot Gloria Calvery in the Z-Film or in the Couch-Darnell clips?  

2)  If so, do you believe "Running Woman" is Gloria Calvery?

Please don't equate me with Sandy Larsen.

He's much more intelligent than I am, as evidenced by the fact that he fervently believes in the Harvey and Lee theory, and I don't.

--  TG

On 8/26/2015 at 10:42 PM, Thomas Graves said:

Well, Robert.

How were my questions totally irrelevant and misleading? Misleading?

The apparently dark-complected woman (face in shade?) identified by many / most researchers as Gloria Jean Calvery (standing with those two other women down by the Stemmons Freeway sign on Elm Street) was caught on film a few seconds after the assassination walking calmly with those two other women up the sidewalk on Elm Srteet in the general direction of the TSBD. So if she was walking, I think it's safe to say she wasn't running. And she's approaching the TSBD from a completely different direction than the woman running in Couch / Darnell. Also, as you well know, the clothes this Gloria Jean Calvery (the apparently dark complected woman) was wearing were different from the clothes the running woman was wearing. So that's why the running woman couldn't be Gloria Jean Calvery, IMHFO.

I know from previous posts that you doubt that the apparently dark-complected woman was Gloria Jean Calvery. Have you changed your mind?

Or conversely, do you think the running woman in Couch / Darnell was Calvery and that Calvery simply wasn't watching the motorcade where she said she was watching it, and with whom she said she was watching it?

What's your current position on all this if you don't mind my asking.

--Tommy

PS I do think the apparently dark-complected woman down by the Stemmons sign could have walked up the Elm Street sidewalk to the TSBD in 30-40 seconds, and encountered Joe Molina there roughly in the time frame he mentioned. What do you think, Robert?

Where do you think the real Gloria Jean Calvery was standing during the motorcade? If you don't think the apparently dark-complected woman was Calvery, who do you think the apparently dark-complected woman was?

An unknown or unaccounted-for friend or co-worker of Carol Reed and Karan Hicks?

 

 

3/22/18  Edit: 

I now believe that the dark-complected woman "by the Stemmons Sign" was self-described native American Stella Mae Jacob, that the tall black-blouse-and-black-headscarf-wearing woman standing directly to the left of John Templin in the Z-Film was Gloria Calvery,  and that the "Running Woman" on Elm Street Extension in Couch-Darnell was Peggy Burney.

 

--  TG

 

edited and bumped