Thomas Graves

On 3/26/2018 at 5:02 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

 

  .....

 

deleted

--  TG

6 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Bart,

 

You mean ... gasp ... I've made a horrible mistake in saying that those two high school photos of Gloria Jeanne Holt very strongly resemble your alleged "Gloria Calvery"?

How will I ever live this down, Sandy?  Andrej?

Robert Prudhomme?

 

--  TG 

Gloria Jeanne Holt's 1963(?) high school photo:

[Hold on, folks.  I'm having a few technical problems with this android ... hehehe ... I might have to do it later on my user-friendly laptop ...]

 

Four (4) Darnell frames showing Bart's and Westbrook's crying, alleged "Gloria Calvery," posted here so that Forum members might compare them with the (1963?) high school photo (above) of Gloria Jeanne Holt:

https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=19&pos=12

 

Edited and bumped so that Forum members might judge for themselves [EDIT:  ... eventually ... hehehe ...]

(Larsen, Prudhomme, and Stancak were on record a year ago as agreeing with me that the crying woman in the Darnell frames was Gloria Jeanne Holt.)

--  TG

1 hour ago, Bart Kamp said:

Incorrect Tommy boy, and stop asking me to speculate as you are good at this already you do not need my input.

Bart,

You mean ... gasp ... I've made a horrible mistake in saying that one of those two highschool photos of Gloria Jeanne Holt very strongly resembles your crying "Gloria Calvery," and that it's therefore highly unlikely that the crying light-haired gal (your "Gloria Calvery") walking up the *north* side of Elm Street with ... gasp ... Stella Mae Jacob ... and one other gal (who has a very-unlike Westbrook *long* face, btw), ISN'T Gloria Jeanne Holt, after all, but ... but ... but ... Gloria Calvery ???

How will I ever live this down, Sandy?  Andrej?

Robert Prudhomme?

--  TG 

Four (4) Darnell frames showing Bart's and Westbrook's crying, alleged "Gloria Calvery," posted here so that Forum members might compare them with this (1963?) high school photo of Gloria Jeanne Holt:

[here in a minute or two, Lord willing ...]

You be the judge, Forum members.

https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=19&pos=12

5 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

Karan Hicks

That is probably correct, Bart.

What's the point you're trying to make by posting this photo?

--  TG

1 minute ago, Bart Kamp said:

That hair of hers grew mighty fast did it not?

1963 yearbook

I believe this is her 1962 photo, and the other one is from 1963, correct?

Do you think she might have grown some during the intervening year, Bart?

--  TG

14 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

How long have you been on forums?

And i was Linda Giovanna Zambanini who posted them originally.

Crying woman in the centre is not Holt, it is Calvery.

Thanks, Bart.

Yes, that's the photo of Gloria Jeanne Holt that convinced me, Sandy, Andrej, and others that the young woman Speth, Roberdeau, and Unger had mislabeled as "Karan Hicks" was, in fact, Gloria Jeanne Holt.

Thanks again!

--  TG

PS  My sincere apologies to my former colleague here, Linda Giovanna Zambanini.

I will forever be grateful for her finding and posting on ROKC the high school photos of "Westbrook's Calvery," Gloria Jeanne Holt.

16 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Bart,

The woman you say is Gloria Calvery has light-colored hair, almost blond. Gloria Calvery has dark hair. You can't see that?

 

Sandy,

I suspect that Calvery had dark red hair and that Holt had light red hair.

Either that, or Westbrook's memory is really, really bad.

--  TG

BTW, Brian Doyle told me by FM Messenger today that Mr. Calvery mentioned on the phone that his mother had told him that she was wearing a headscarf that day.

6 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

What's excellent about it?

Point me to the spot where they met?

That they met is a given, is there a time frame on this? No.

Could they have bumped into each other and Calvery could have stayed there longer? Possibly.

 

Does anything of this matter? None whatsoever.

 

 

You two are still smartening from the fact that you have been dead wrong about the Calvery ID, your cover up is not working. Nor does it point to anything valuable in this case, but no for three years running yack yack yack, Gloria Gloria Gloooooooria.......

You two have failed miserably lately, seriously take a break or hang with Brian Doyle at his Prayer Woman page.......

 

Bart,

Looks as though you're getting quite desperate.

Could you please tell me how to upload to this forum the screenshot I took of Gloria Jeanne Holt's high school photos?  You know, the ones your buddy Stan Dane so kindly posted on ROKC about a year ago?

(Are the still there by the way, or have they been deleted?)

--  TG

5 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

He probably has, but just doesn't buy the crap you two are obliterating this forum with.

Just because you post it a million times doesn't make it true.

it is Calvery and not Holt.

Bart,

Why has Don Roberdeau (correctly) labeled those three women as Jacob, Holt, and Simmons in his revised map?

And why have you at least (correctly) identified the brown-coat-wearing woman in Cabluck as Stella Mae Jacob? 

(Sarcasm: Was that a mistake on your part?)

--  TG

25 minutes ago, Mike Kilroy said:

Not sure we’re in disagreement here, Thomas.  My point is that some agency officials withheld key knowledge, e.g. the DRE relationship, while others were only too happy to give up other information, eg Kostikov, whether faked or not.

BTW, for what it’s worth, the Kostikov file that was recently released shows the agency putting Kostikov under close surveillance during a trip the KGB agent made to San Diego two weeks after meeting LHO. In other words, he was important to them at the time.

Right.  Because they already knew he was KGB, and they *suspected* that he was Department 13.

Question: Did he cross the border and come to my hometown of San Diego, or did he only go to Ensenada and Tijuana?

--  TG

14 minutes ago, Mike Kilroy said:

Thomas -

If the CIA can explain why Richard Helms, David Phillips and George Joannides said nothing to any authorities the night of the assassination when the networks ran the NO footage of Oswald messing with the DRE, I'll drop them off my list.  These CIA men maintained their silence about their intimate knowledge of the agency/DRE relationship to their deaths.

If you can also get them to explain their reticence discussing the coin-operated DRE but spilling the beans on Oswald and Kostikov the day after the assassination (while giving LHO a pass when the two actually met), you can remove Angleton as well.

Until then, no dice.  They're suspects, IMO.

Mike

Mike, 

Sorry, ... "while giving LHO a pass when the two actually met" ??

What makes you think Oswald and Kostikov actually met?

Was the cable that Kostikov and Nechiporenko and/or Yatsov claimed after the assassination to have sent to Moscow about their meeting with Oswald ever released by the Kremlin?

Wasn't Tennent H. Bagley's belief that Oswald had met with Kostikov based on what turned out to have been a phone call by an Oswald imposter who "couldn't remember" the name of the Soviet consul he had supposedly met with a just couple of days earlier?

And even though CIA already knew that Kostikov was KGB, wasn't CIA's only reason for suspecting that he was Department 13 ultimately based on what false double-agent Aleksei Kulak (aka Fedora) had told CIA-hating J. Edgar Hoover?

--  TG

10 minutes ago, Trygve V. Jensen said:

And the reasoning for this one (asked for the 3rd time) . 

Just the faintest shred of anything that indicates this, would be appreciated. 

Devil's Advocate Rhetorical Questions: 

"Why did Frazier deny that Oswald watched the motorcade with him?"

"And why did he say Oswald took a long package to work that day?"

--  TG

2 hours ago, Robin Unger said:

Living history with Karen Westbrook

 

 

 

Robin,

Sandy and I are already well aware of Westbrook's major boo-boos in that interview, as well as Thierry Speth's, Don Roberdeau's, and YOURS regarding your collective misidentification of Jacob, Holt, and Simmons, respectively, as "Calvary, Hicks, and Reed" in the Z-Film back in the day.

Are you aware that Roberdeau FINALLY got it right about Jacob, Holt, and Simmons on his revised map?

My God, haven't you been following our posts on the subject matter, Robin?

--  TG 

25 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Excellent point, Sandy.

I hadn't thought of that.

It would appear that Bart's "modified limited hangout" has backfired on him, big time.

 

--  TG

 

PS

Could you or someone else please tell me how to post here a "screenshot" that's on my hard drive?

My laptop is using (non-touch) Windows 10, Google Chrome (and Mozilla Firefox).

It has neither Word, nor Office, nor Photo bucket, nor PhotoShop, nor any "snipping tools" (that I know of).

Thank you.!

--  TG

PPS  Or how to send it to somebody as an e-mail attachment, for that matter?

 

Major "PS" and bumped

47 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Well then, when and where do you think Shelley and Lovelady interacted with Gloria Calvery? You believe Shelley and Lovelady were well on their way to the railroad track before Officer Baker had even reached the TSBD steps. And that Calvery was wandering down by where the limo had been. So when and where did they interact?

In Shelley's first-day statement he said that he bumped into Calvery at the corner concrete island. That could not have happened according to your version of the facts.

 

Excellent point, Sandy.

I hadn't thought of that.

It would appear that Bart's "modified limited hangout" has backfired on him big time.

--  TG

PS

Could you or someone else please tell me how to post here a "screenshot" that's on my hard drive?

My laptop is using non-touch Windows 10, Google Chrome (and Mozilla Firefox).

It has neither Word, nor Office, nor Photo bucket, nor PhotoShop, nor any "snipping tools" (that I know of).

Thank you!

--  TG

41 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Tommy,

From what I can tell, Bart now agrees with us that the woman on the left is (native American) Stella Mae Jacob. He now believes the one in the middle is Gloria Calvery because of the 55-year Karen Westbrook interview. You and I know her to be Gloria Holt. And, again because of the 55-year Karen Westbrook interview, Bart believes the woman on the right is Karen Westbrook herself. You and I know her to be Sharon Simmons.

Bart has photos of both Karen Westbrook and Sharon Simmons posted on his web site:

 

      
LEFT:    Sharon Simmons
RIGHT:  Karen Westbrook

 

Too bad they look as similar as they do, so we could make a positive ID. I will note that Sharon Simmons has her hair brushed down over her forehead, in contrast to Karen Westbrook who brushed her hair back, both in high school and in her 55 year interview. The woman in the Z-film has her hair brushed down, as Sharon Simmons does.

Luckily for us, we have plenty of photos of Gloria Calvery, and she clearly does not look like the blond woman above. I can't believe that Bart thinks they are the same person.

We also have Gloria Holt's high school photos, and she does indeed look like the blond woman above.

 

Excellent work, Sandy.

It's obvious to me that Simmons has a longish face, and that Westbrook has a squarish or even roundish face.  You can see that about Westbrook here, and even more so in her recent Sixth Floor Museum interview.  

It's too bad Smilin' Stephen Fagin didn't turn Westbrook onto Darnell's film of Jacob, Holt, and Simmons walking toward the TSBD.  If he had, then Westbrook would have undoubtedly realized the mistakes (plural) she was making in her "identifications."

--  TG

On 3/2/2017 at 11:06 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

Just to summarize, here are the three woman said to be standing on the south side of Elm:

• Stella Mae Jacob       (Native American)
• Gloria Jeanne Holt     (blond)
• Sharon (Simmons) Nelson

Sharon Nelson said she was "standing on the sidewalk on Elm Street about midway between the TSBD building and the underpass." This places her and her friends in the same location as the woman marked as Calvery, Hicks, and Reed.

It's looking to me like you've identified the real names of the three woman, Thomas.

Calvery, Hicks, and Reed are really Jacob, Holt, and Nelson, respectively. Or so it seems.

(Note: Testimony indicates a few other woman were standing with these three. So I/Thomas might be misidentifying the woman labeled as Reed.)

 

 

Sandy,

"Or so it seems" ??

I'm Laughing Out Loud, Comrade!

--  TG

26 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

I wonder if Sarah Stanton had stepped behind Frazier by the time of Darnell/Wiegman and that why we can't see her.

 

Sandy,

Either that, or (presumably shorter than LHO's 5' 9.5") Sarah Stanton was fiddling with her purse or something back there in the corner while saying to Buell, "Yep, that's what I heard Gloria say to Billy, too!"

--  TG

23 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Tommy,

I don't believe the evidence indicates that Sarah Stanton was standing near where we see Prayer Man to be.

Before explaining why, I need to point out that I believe Prayer Man was standing alone in the back corner of the entrance. Andrej believes he was standing near the front of the top landing. If I were to be convinced that Andrej is right, that could make a difference in my assessment. But for now I still believe Prayer Man is back in the corner.

According to Andrej,

Stanton: says she was with Sanders, Shelley, Lovelady and Williams.
Sanders: says she took up a position on the top steps and that Stanton was standing next to her.

The whole time we see Prayer Man he/she is standing alone. Yet Stanton said she was with Sanders, Shelley, Lovelady, and Williams. And likewise Sanders said she was with Stanton. This doesn't sound like what I see in the photo.

 

Sandy,

Have you ever considered the fact that the top landing area and the steps comprised such a small area that everybody on same was effectively close and within speaking distance of everybody else on same?

How far do you think Frazier was from "Prayer Man" and vice versa?  (I agree with you BTW that PM was standing in the corner.)

Have you watched a blow up of the GIF and noticed how Frazier turns his head towards "Prayer Man" as though he's talking with him or her?

Do you believe that "Prayer Man" was your "Harvey" (oops, let's not even "go" there right now), and that Frazier lied, lied, lied when he said he didn't see Oswald during the motorcade?

(Had any luck finding any of those photos we posted about a year ago, comrade?)

--  TG

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

For the record, what Tommy has quoted above is originally from an Alistair Briggs post. Alistair had put a lot of effort into his analysis and I wanted to see what I could gain from it. His original presentation is posted here

 

Sandy,

Do you have anything to say whatsoever about my previous post about Gloria Jeanne Holt's "expired" high school photos?

Did you miss it?

--  TG

PS  Did I ruthlessly plagiarize something, or perhaps forget to give someone, once-removed, credit?

9 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

 

  11 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Crash and Burn Tommy.....

http://www.prayer-man.com/living-history-with-karen-westbrook-scranton/

Updated, especially for you and that other cretin with that filthy haircut

 

Bart,

Boy, are you ever confused.  That photo by Cabluck on your website shows Stella Mae Jacob consoling GLORIA JEANNE HOLT, not Gloria Jean Calvery (who was either already on the TSBD steps when the photo was taken, or on the way there). 

Oh well, at least you got one of the two hugging women in the photo right -- Stella Mae Jacob -- so there's hope for you yet, Bart. IIRC, it wasn't too long ago that you (and many others, "thanks" to Thierry Speth's and Donald Roberdeau's and Robin Unger's mislabeling of Stella Mae Jacob back in the day) believed that Stella Mae was Gloria Calvery!  

It's interesting that Karen Westbrook Scranton thought Stella Mae Jacob might be Carol Reed in the interview, huh?  (I wonder if Westbrook saw the mislabeled Z-Frame photo before the interview and it influenced her to say that? Easy mistake to make, I guess, looking at people not only from a distance, but from behind in a 8mm film frame some 55 years after the fact.)

 

--  TG

 

PS  If you want to see photos of what Gloria Jean Holt looked like in 1962 and 1963, why don't you ask your buddy Stan Dane to provide you with her highschool yearbook pics which he had up on the ROKC website about a year ago (are they still there?). 

When I came across them at ROKC, I "copied and pasted" them to a thread at right here at the JFK Assassination Debate forum, but unfortunately they, like many other photos that Sandy and I posted around that time, have since "expired" and are no longer viewable here.

Not to worry, though!  Because your "Cretin Tommy" had the presence of mind to make a "screen shot" of those Gloria Jeanne Holt highschool photos while they were still here on the EF, and I will be more than happy to upload them here again as soon as I can figure out how to downside the image containing the two photos of Holt. (My laptop has Windows 10 and my browser is Google Chrome. I don't have Office or Word or Photo Bucket or any "snipping tools," so any advice on how to do this would be greatly appreciated.)

When I do that you'll realize, Bart, that Westbrook's "Calvery" was actually "light reddish-blondish haired" Gloria Jeanne Holt, and that Westbrook was way, way off in her identification of her "red haired chum, Gloria Calvery" in a film frame that was shot from behind 55 years ago.

 

Major edit and bumped

, if so, if so,

13 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Crash and Burn Tommy.....

http://www.prayer-man.com/living-history-with-karen-westbrook-scranton/

Updated, especially for you and that other cretin with that filthy haircut.

Boy are you ever confused, Bart.  That photo by Cabluck on your website shows Stella Mae Jacob consoling GLORIA JEANNE HOLT, not Gloria Jean Calvery (who was either already on the TSBD steps when the photo was taken, or on the way there). 

Oh well, at least you got one of the two hugging women in the photo right -- Stella Mae Jacob -- so there's hope for you yet, Bart. It wasn't too long ago that you (and many others) believed that Stella Mae was Gloria Calvery!  

It's interesting that Karen Westbrook Scranton thought Stella Mae Jacob might be Carol Reed in the interview, huh?  (I wonder if Westbrook saw the mislabeled Z-Frame photo before the interview and maybe it influenced her to say that? (It's an easy mistake to make, I guess, you know, trying to identify people not only from a distance in an 8mm film frame, but from behind and some fifty-five years after the fact.)

--  TG

PS  If you want to see photos of what Gloria Jean Holt looked like in 1962 and 1963, why don't you ask your buddy Stan Dane to provide you with her highschool yearbook pics which he had up on the ROKC website when I checked a year ago (are they still there?).  When I came across them at ROKC, I "copied and pasted" them to a thread at right here at the JFK Assassination Debate forum, but unfortunately they, like many other photos that Sandy and I posted around that time, have since "expired" and are no longer viewable here.

Not to worry, though!  Because your "Cretin Tommy" had the presence of mind to make a "screen shot" of those Gloria Jeanne Holt highschool photos while they were still here on the EF, and I will be more than happy to upload them here again as soon as I can figure out how to downside the image containing the two photos of Holt, I will do so. (My laptop has Windows 10 and my browser is Google Chrome. I don't have Office or Word or Photo Bucket or any "snipping tools," so any advice on how to do this would be greatly appreciated.)

When I do, you'll realize, Bart, that Westbrook's "Calvery" was actually "light reddish-blondish haired" Gloria Jeanne Holt, and that Westbrook was way, way off in her identification of her "red haired chum, Gloria Calvery" in a film frame that was shot from behind 55 years ago.

14 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Yup

Bart,

Yup what?

Yup you are trying to provoke me?

(I've got some bad news for you, Bart, it isn't working.  See how civil I'm being?  I even called you by your preferred name!)

By the way, while you're here, please answer the following questions for us:

Do you believe Karen Westbrook Scranton was correct in that Sixth Floor Museum interview you posted when she "identified" her friend Gloria Calvery (from behind and fifty-five years after the fact) in that Z-Frame? 

If not, do you prefer to believe that Gloria Calvery was the dark-complected and dark-haired woman "caught" in Darnell's clip and therefore recognizable as being the woman standing closer to the Stemmons Freeway sign whom Thierry Speth, Don Roberdeau, and Robin Unger labeled "Gloria Calvary" back-in-the-day?

If not, do you prefer to think that Gloria Calvery was that lithe "Running Woman" running across and down Elm Street Extension?

Or, when it comes right down to it, would you now prefer to say that for some mysterious reason you haven't been able to spot Gloria Calvery in the 11/22/63 photos and films, yet?

Thanks,

--  TG

1 hour ago, Bart Kamp said:

 

Ha Ha  (                  )  Ha Ha Ha  and the evidence for that convo?

I mean yesterday I spoke with Roy Truly and told me that what I was doing was first rate research and he was sorry for lying so much that weekend and shortly after..........keep at it Tommy besmirch this whole thing some more, your rep is in tatters anyhow...right?? Might as well go down in flames by goading like there is no tomorrow.

 

That the best you can do, Bart?

(Quite impressive, actually.  How long did it take you?)

--  TG

2 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

You did the right thing Jim, Doyle is slagging you and others off like there is no tomorrow on his Prayer Woman FB page.

Thomas Graves knows his time is up here so he rather behaves like this as a final sendoff.....laughable really.

Bart,

My time is up here?  Do you know something I don't know?  About my standing on the Forum, that is?

You aren't trying to provoke me, now, are you?

I mean, isn't that against the rules?

Have you noticed how I stopped saying "With all due respect" to fellow members a week ago, and how civil and polite I've been, and how I even voluntarily acceded to James DiEugenio's desire to refer to me as "TG" by calling myself the same?

Seeing as how the moderators are very fair-minded people, and how I've been quite civil ever since the "Perfect Storm" of Kathy Beckett's being on vacation in England for ten days, and James Gordon's PM box being full, and David Josephs not really having been banned, but Dawn Meretith's evidently being told by David that he had been banned, and Paul Brancato's dramatic threatening to leave as a reaction thereto, etc, etc, etc, etc, why in the world would my time be "up" anymore that anyone else's here?

Regardless, I do have a serious question for you now that you are here:  Do you believe Karen Westbrook Scranton was correct in that Sixth Floor Museum interview when she "identified" her friend Gloria Calvery (from behind and fifty-five years after the fact) in that Z-Frame?

--  TG