Thomas Graves

Dear Jon G Tidd, That's right, we don't want to know that "Big Mac" McGeorge Bundy had JFK killed. Respectfully, --Tommy

Maybe he did well on the Marine Corps aptitude tests for that particular MOS? Just a wild guess on my part. --Tommy

Not manipulated beyond the run-of-the-mill manipulation we are all subjected to throughout our lives re loyalty, for Uncle Sam / king and country and all the rest of it... He was not a spy (as such). If he collected information, it was information which was legal to obtain and to have. He was a courier initially. Dear Greg, I'm not saying he was a spy. I'm saying he thought he was a spy. Respectfully, --Tommy

Larry, I'm not interested in the Campbell character. I'm not interested in the Joannides character. They could be Timex salesmen for all I care. I am interested in the Morales character, however. Respectfully, --Tommy

Larry, Here's an excerpt. "The BBC report also was apparently wrong about David Morales, a swaggering paramilitary expert known for his counterintelligence network in Cuban Miami and for his hatred of both John and Bobby Kennedy. Family members insisted that the man caught on TV news cameras at the Ambassador was not Morales, pointing out that the man in the news footage looked more like a light-skinned African-American than a Mexican-American. The man said to be Morales appears only in the background of video footage from a TV camera on the other side of the hotel ballroom. The image is both small and blurred making reproduction, comparison and indentification difficult. New photos of Morales, taken in the late 1960s and early 1970s, shows a distinctly different-looking man than the one in the Ambassador footage, with grayer hair and the strong Indian features that gave Morales his nickname, "El Indio." Morales, Viet Nam 1969-1971. (enlarge) Morales, Peru 1966-1967. (enlarge) Morales, Viet Nam 1969-1971. (enlarge) " The sentence I highlighted in the excerpt, above. is incorrect. A man resembling Morales can be seen in two other scenes in the video. Respectfully, --Tommy

Ian, There are only a couple of "verified" photographs of William Shelley before the assassination. Have you tried googling "william h shelley" (in quotation marks) and then clicking on "images"? --Tommy William Hoyt Shelley's high school photograph. As found on Greg Parker's wonderful ROKC website. Shelley having coffee and talking to reporters inside the TSBD.

Shelley's testimony is suspect on many counts, but I don't think he's Prayer Man because of the clothing differences. It seems you can barely make out Prayer Man's t-shirt or bare chest under his dark shirt. Shelley was wearing a suit and tie that day. --Tommy Tommy, Would you please direct me to where this is stated as fact please. Thanks. Ian, It is photographically "stated as fact." You know, the photographs and film clips which show Shelley (circled in red, below), Danny Arce, and Bonnie Ray Williams being escorted to and getting into the police car? William Shelley on the far right in this clip. Detective Brown in the flashing red circle. Do you know of any documents which "state as fact" anything to the contrary? If so, would you please direct me to them please? Thanks. bumped again

Shelley's testimony is suspect on many counts, but I don't think he's Prayer Man because of the clothing differences. It seems you can barely make out Prayer Man's t-shirt or bare chest under his dark shirt. Shelley was wearing a suit and tie that day. --Tommy Tommy, Would you please direct me to where this is stated as fact please. Thanks. Ian, It is photographically "stated as fact." You know, the photographs and film clips which show Shelley (circled in red, below), Danny Arce, and Bonnie Ray Williams being escorted to and getting into the police car? Do you know of any documents which "state as fact" anything to the contrary? If so, would you please direct me to them please? Thanks. bumped for Ian Lloyd

Shelley's testimony is suspect on many counts, but I don't think he's Prayer Man because of the clothing differences. It seems you can barely make out Prayer Man's t-shirt or bare chest under his dark shirt. Shelley was wearing a suit and tie that day. --Tommy Tommy, Would you please direct me to where this is stated as fact please. Thanks. Ian, It is photographically "stated as fact." You know, the photographs and film clips which show Shelley (circled in red, below), Danny Arce, and Bonnie Ray Williams being escorted to and getting into the police car? William Shelley on the far right in this clip. Detective Brown in the flashing red circle. Do you know of any documents which "state as fact" anything to the contrary? If so, would you please direct me to them please? Thanks.

I think you're reading too much into it, Tommy. You're entitled to your opinion, Greg. That's what Steel said. Verbatim. --Tommy Tommy, show me where he mentioned that the ONI office was the Command Post for the assassination. That is your interpretation, and you are entitled to it. But those are not his words. Parker, Don't put your words into my mouth. To answer your question, it's known as putting two plus two together and reading between the lines and using a little intuition. Of course he didn't come right out and say, on tape, "The Dallas ONI office was in in the Terminal Annex Building, the same building that the command center for the JFK assassination was in." Would you expect him to say that, even if it was? You were not there with him. I was. I asked him where the Dallas ONI office was in 1963, and he said: "It was across the street. It was in the postal building. It was in the building that Kennedy was killed from." I thought about that for a long time and I couldn't see how JFK could have been killed from the Terminal Annex Building because Jackie was in the way, but then I realized that the upper floors of that building offered a commanding view (pardon the pun) of the assassination, and would have been an excellent location for the command center, and I came to the conclusion that that was what Steel was obliquely referring to and that he had almost let the cat out of the bag.. I think that Steel's statement, quoted verbatim above, taken in conjunction with his apparent inability to remember where he was when he heard that JFK had been shot, makes his statement much more sinister than you would have it. Respectfully, --Tommy

Not manipulated beyond the run-of-the-mill manipulation we are all subjected to throughout our lives re loyalty, for Uncle Sam / king and country and all the rest of it... He was not a spy (as such). If he collected information, it was information which was legal to obtain and to have. He was a courier initially. Greg, Once again we disagree. I think Oswald was gullible and wanted to be a spy and, let's face it, he was a Marine Corps "aviation electronics operator" with U-2 experience, and the CIA / ONI took advantage of this and led him to believe that he would be an important spy / U-2 "dangle" in Russia, but the CIA /ONI wasn't planning on using him as a spy / dangle there at all, but only in making him look like an "Odd Duck" Marxist "defector" -- a perfect patsy for any future "dirty work" that might come up in those Cold War years. It's like what Larry Hancock and Jon G. Tidd have said on this forum. Oswald couldn't offer the Russians any information about the U-2 that they didn't already know. They already knew how high it could fly, the codes were changed on a regular basis, etc. But Oswald didn't know all that. Respectfully, --Tommy

Paul B., Yes. Please go to the "Who Killed Bobby?" thread in the "Robert Kennedy" part of the "Controversial Issues In History" section and read my post and watch the video by Shane O'Sullivan from 6:35 on and be prepared to "freeze" the video several times in order to get a good look at the horseshoe-mustached "Michael Townley" character I'm talking about. Notice how the "Morales" character has turned his head completely around in "Townley's" direction, and how "Morales" snaps his head back around to the front as soon as he sees "Townley." http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13105#entry299808 Thanks for the interest and the continuing moral support, --Tommy

Obviously not for the assassination of yet-to-be-elected JFK, but for any "dirty work" that might come along which would require a Marxist, defector-to-Russia-and re-defector "odd duck" patsy? Oswald could have been manipulated into "defecting" to Russia by leading him to believe that he would be functioning there as a high-value CIA or ONI spy, of great interest to the KGB because of his "aviation electronics operator" and U-2 background. --Tommy

Yes John. In case some of our members and guests don't know, Harry Holmes was a postal inspector and his office was on an upper floor of the Terminal Annex Building and he watched the assassination through binoculars from his office window. He had a wonderful view. I don't think the shots came from there because Jackie would have been in the way, but I do think it would have been an ideal location for the command / observation center. --Tommy

I think you're reading too much into it, Tommy. You're entitled to your opinion, Greg. That's what Steel said. Verbatim. --Tommy

Tommy, I'm sure he meant "across the street. It was in the Postal Building. It was [across the street from] the building that Kennedy was killed from." No, Greg. He said, "It [the Dallas ONI office] was in the building that Kennedy was killed from." Translation: The Dallas ONI office was in the Terminal Annex Building / the Postal Annex Building which was across the street from where JFK was killed, and it was in the same building that the JFK assassination command center was situated. The upper floors of the Terminal Annex Building / Postal Annex Building offered a wonderful view of the killing zone and the buildings around it. Respectfully, --Tommy PS Don't you find it strange that Steel couldn't remember where he was when he heard that JFK had been shot, but he could remember how long his small ship was during WW II, and he could remember where he was when he heard that Pearl Harbor had been attacked??

Greg, http://jfkcountercoup2.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-oni-letter.html I don't remember how Bill Kelly came up with it. I read the letter to Steel and he admitted writing it I wish Kelly would return my tape of the interview to me, as he said he would do a couple of years ago and as recently as a month ago, but I still haven't received it. Regarding the interview, the most important things Steel told me were: 1 ) He couldn't remember where he was when he heard JFK had been shot, 2 ) Paul Bentley was a personal friend of his, and 3 ) the Dallas ONI office was "Across the street. It was in the postal building, it was in the building that Kennedy was killed from." Note: He didn't say it was in the Post Office building, he said it was in "the postal building," which I take to mean the Postal Annex Building, aka the Terminal Annex Building (which was "across the street"). --Tommy

Another post from the other thread: Vanessa Loney, on 06 Apr 2015 - 9:39 PM, said: Vanessa, I didn't know that, actually, but I wouldn't be surprised. I do know that the Terminal Annex Building was a federal building and had a lot of federal offices in it, including a Navy Recruiting Office in 1962 and perhaps later. Are you sure you aren't confusing Dealey Plaza with Bannister's office in New Orleans, which was supposedly within walking distance of the offices where the "big boys" (CIA, ONI, FBI, etc) worked? But I digress yet again. --Tommy And finally, here's the telegram letter Steel sent Bentley on 11/22/63 11/24/63. : Vanessa Loney, on 06 Apr 2015 - 10:55 PM, said: Vanessa, Here it is, but now I'm not sure it was a telegram. Maybe a letter. Mailed / sent on 11/24, not 11/22. My bad. Det. Paul Bentley Dallas Police Dept. Dallas, Texas 7960 June Lake Dr. San Diego, 19, Calf. 24 Nov. 1963 Dear Paul, Perhaps you are aware that ONI has quite a file on Oswald, which no doubt has been made avbailable on the Washington level. If not I am certain that this information can be obtained for you through our resident special agent in charge of our Dallas office, A.C. Sullivan, who is a wonderful agent, and whom I hope you know. As a personal friend I congratulate you - wish you continued success - and pray that your guardian angel will remain close at hand and vigilant, always. Respectifully, Robert D. Steel Commander USNR-R Originally posted by the illustrious Bill Kelly. Spelling errors are Kelly's. http://jfkcountercou...ul-bentley.html --Tommy PS Bill Kelly still hasn't sent me back the tape of my Steel interview, even though he said about a month ago on this forum that he would do so. He told me in an e-mail or PM a couple of years ago that he would send the original back to me, or at least a good-quality, complete copy. I'm still waiting, Mr. Kelly.

Another post from the other thread: Vanessa Loney, on 06 Apr 2015 - 9:39 PM, said: Vanessa, I didn't know that, actually, but I wouldn't be surprised. I do know that the Terminal Annex Building was a federal building and had a lot of federal offices in it, including a Navy Recruiting Office in 1962 and perhaps later. Are you sure you aren't confusing Dealey Plaza with Bannister's office in New Orleans, which was supposedly within walking distance of the offices where the "big boys" (CIA, ONI, FBI, etc) worked? But I digress yet again. --Tommy

Vanessa, Please note that Steel sent Paul Bentley the congratulatory letter on 11/24/63, so if Steel was in Dallas on 11/22/63, he had plenty of time to travel back to San Diego before sending it. I think it's just amazing that he very quickly answered both of my "lead up" memory-testing questions from 1941 and WW II (see post #1, this thread), but for the life of him he just couldn't seem to remember where he was when he heard that JFK had been shot. --Tommy

Vanessa Loney, on 06 Apr 2015 - 9:13 PM, said: Vanessa, Good one! Btw, when I asked him where the ONI office was situated in Dallas in 1963, he said, "It was across the street (from the TSBD?), it was in the Postal building (the Terminal Annex Building had a post office in it !), it was in the building Kennedy was killed from ("killed from" meaning where the command center / observation center was located? -- maybe even Harry Holmes' upper floor office?) " But I digress, again. --Tommy Vanessa, To answer your question, he was living in San Diego at the time and was assigned to the old Eleventh Naval District. He told me he was "the best investigator the ONI had" (bragging to me a few times that his IQ was 170), so he traveled a lot, investigating the really important stuff for the Navy. He was from Texas and knew a lot of the ONI and FBI and CIA people in Dallas and traveled there on business quite a bit. He was a native Texan, born in Brownwood. From a Wikipedia article: "The Eleventh Naval District, headquartered at the Lake Training Station in Lake Bluff, Illinois, was established on 7 May 1903 in accordance with General Order No. 128, signed by Acting Secretary of the Navy Charles H. Darling. The district was activated in 1911 as part of a larger administrative unit known as the "Ninth, Tenth and Eleventh Naval Districts." In 1920 the Eleventh Naval District became a separate Naval District. In 1945 the district was headquartered at San Diego, California, and consisted of the following geographic areas:New Mexico; Arizona; Clark County, Nevada; southern part of California, including Counties of Santa Barbara, Kern, and San Bernardino, and all counties south thereof. The Eleventh Naval District was disestablished on 30 September 1980." --Tommy

Vanessa Loney, on 06 Apr 2015 - 9:13 PM, said: Vanessa, Good one! Btw, when I asked him where the ONI office was situated in Dallas in 1963, he said, "It was across the street (from the TSBD?), it was in the Postal building (the Terminal Annex Building had a post office in it !), it was in the building Kennedy was killed from ("killed from" meaning where the command center / observation center was located? -- maybe even Harry Holmes' upper floor office?) " But I digress, again. --Tommy

Vanessa, Everyone who is old enough can remember where they were and what they were doing, right? Except, of course, the retired ONI special agent, Robert David Steel, who told me he had "very probably" done the investigation of Oswald at El Toro when Oswald defected to Russia, who was a good friend of Oswald's arrester, Paul Bentley, and whom I interviewed on tape a few years ago (and which tape I am still waiting [edit: even today, 3/26/18 !] for Bill Kelly to return to me, as promised). Steel could remember how long his small WW II ship (USS Sea Scout) was, where he was when he heard that Pearl Harbor had been attacked (Brownwood, Texas), but for the life of him he couldn't seem to remember where he was when he heard JFK had been shot. But I digress. --Tommy

Maybe it's a case of "Top step" vs. "Landing," and different people referring to them in different ways --Tommy Then it would be even more crowded, as that step would only be a foot wide. When some people said they were standing on the "top step," maybe they were standing on the landing, instead. Whereas when others said they were standing on the "top step," maybe they really were standing on the top step (which was, by definition, just below the landing). --Tommy

I think there's general agreement on this, Jon, i.e. when OSWALD was in the USSR he was used as a "dangle" by the ONI or CIA or whatever Intelligence Agency sent him there. That was pointed out by Ex-CIA Agent Victor Marchetti in the 1990's. It seems to me that the ONI/CIA wanted OSWALD to stay in the USSR much longer than he did -- but his wife just had a baby and he wanted to show off his fatherhood to his family back in the USA. So he quit the USSR program. IMHO, this was the reason why the Marines lowered OSWALD's discharge status -- OSWALD had broken his contract as a "dangle". As I recall, Marchetti also explained the value to the CIA of having multiple "dangles" in the USSR, strategically positioned. They wanted to keep their "dangles" inside the USSR as long as possible -- ideally until the end of the Cold War. By breaking his "dangle" contract, this suggests to me that OSWALD lost the favor of the Intelligence Agencies, and he was too young and naïve to know what he was doing. He always wanted to get back into their good graces. This explains how Guy Banister and Company could so easily exploit OSWALD in NOLA, by pretending to be official agents for the CIA. But after OSWALD left the USSR, the Intelligence Agencies would only regard OSWALD with suspicion, and would think twice before laying on any more interviews; it seems to me. Regards, --Paul Trejo Did the Marine Corps "lower Oswald's "discharge status," as you put it, while he was still in Russia or not until he'd come back to the U.S.? No need for a lecture here. I already know that before he went to Russia he was given a "dependency discharge" from active duty and placed into the Reserves. Then after he defected he was given an "undesireable discharge" which his mother mistakenly told him in a letter was a more serious "dishonorable discharge." --Tommy