Thomas Graves

Dear David, Just curious -- how many people do you figure you've converted to your theory over the years? Ten? Fifteen? Thank you, --Tommy

I think that's a great idea, Tommy. Let's make this one look like Tidd's thread so maybe they'll divert this one the way we want them to. Kinda like James Jesus Angleton would do with his orchids... Here goes: Dear Mr. Jon G. Tidd, I think that's an excellent question, Jon. Fast-forwarding here to a recent exchange we had on the difference between being set up and being framed, couldn't the setting up of Oswald as the patsy have involved his being framed, after the fact, by the manipulation and distribution of his legend? And couldn't that have led seamlessly to the cover up? --Tommy Bumped in a probably-futile attempt to keep from being banished. LOL(?) PS I guess the bad guys were just really fortunate to have an ex-Marine (all Marines are, by definition, good marksmen), itinerant, Marxist, former "defector" to Russia, Kostikov-connected, pro-Castro demonstrator working in the TSBD when JFK's motorcade drove by -- you know, to frame for the assassination, after the fact. Talk about serendipity. They must have been beside themselves with joy for the great good luck they'd fallen into. I mean, Oswald worked out so much better than, say, Jack Dougherty or Billy Lovelady or Joe Molina would have, didn't he. LOL bumped to get , uhhh... "back on track" (snicker, snicker)

I think that's a great idea, Tommy. Let's make this one look like Tidd's thread so maybe they'll divert this one the way we want them to. Kinda like James Jesus Angleton would do with his orchids... Here goes: Dear Mr. Jon G. Tidd, I think that's an excellent question, Jon. Fast-forwarding here to a recent exchange we had on the difference between being set up and being framed, couldn't the setting up of Oswald as the patsy have involved his being framed, after the fact, by the manipulation and distribution of his legend? And couldn't that have led seamlessly to the cover up? --Tommy Bumped in a probably-futile attempt to keep from being banished. LOL(?) PS I guess the bad guys were just really fortunate to have an ex-Marine (all Marines are, by definition, good marksmen), itinerant, Marxist, former "defector" to Russia, Kostikov-connected, pro-Castro demonstrator working in the TSBD when JFK's motorcade drove by -- you know, to frame for the assassination, after the fact. Talk about serendipity. They must have been beside themselves with joy for the great good luck they'd fallen into. I mean, Oswald worked out so much better than, say, Jack Dougherty or Billy Lovelady or Joe Molina would have, didn't he. LOL

So that Jon G. Tidd's great thread "Was The Set Up Distinct From The Cover Up" (or something like that) can be resumed? Perhaps a separate thread for Greg and Jo Jo , et al. (myself included) , to civilly argue about Armstrong's Lee and Harvey and Henry, Too could be started, as well? Thank you, --Tommy

Dear Mr. Tidd, That's an excellent question. Fast-forwarding here to a recent exchange we had on the difference between being set up and being framed, couldn't the setting up of Oswald as the patsy have involved his being framed, after the fact, by the manipulation and distribution of his legend? And couldn't that have led seamlessly to the cover up? --Tommy Bumped in a probably-futile attempt to keep from being banished. LOL(?) PS I guess the bad guys were just really fortunate to have a pissed off dishonorably-discharged undesirably-discharged ex-Marine (all Marines are, by definition, good marksmen), prone-to-violence, itinerant, minimum wage earning, Marxist, former "defector" to Russia, married-to-a-Russian, Kostikov-connected, pro-Castro demonstrator already working in the TSBD for a few weeks when JFK's motorcade drove by -- you know, to frame for the assassination, after the fact. Talk about serendipity. They must have been beside themselves with joy for the great good luck they'd fallen into. I mean, Oswald was so easy to finger (because he was an Odd Duck) and to frame (because he was an Odd Duck) and worked out so much better than, say, Jack Dougherty or Billy Lovelady or Joe Molina would have, didn't he. But was he set up, in advance, as the patsy? Heavens no. It was all just ... just ..... coincidental. LOL --Tommy

Right, Jon. Well, I guess the really high-level guys could have their buddies do magical things with 8mm film clips back in the day. Maybe the bad guys had Walt Disney alter the Martin and Hughes "Lovelady" film clips. "Big Mac" probably knew Walt. Walt probably owed him, big time. You know, the opium and everything. --Tommy bumped

Dear Mr. Jon G. Tidd, I think that's an excellent question, Jon. Fast-forwarding here to a recent exchange we had on the difference between being set up and being framed, couldn't the setting up of Oswald as the patsy have involved his being framed, after the fact, by the manipulation and distribution of his legend? And couldn't that have led seamlessly to the cover up? --Tommy

Dear Robert, If you're saying that Altgens 6 "Doorman" was Oswald, that Altgens 6 "Doorman" was not altered, and that the FBI photos of Lovelady were altered to make Lovelady look like Altgens 6 "Doorman", what you're really saying is that Lovelady, in the FBI photos, was altered to look like Oswald. Do you realize how nutty that sounds? I say that Altgens 6 "Doorman" was always Billy Lovelady, and that he was wearing his long sleeved, mostly red "plaid" shirt in that photograph. And I'm starting to think that Doorman = Prayerman = Lovelady, and that Shelley and Lovelady and Baker and Truly lied. Most people who look at "Doorman" in Altgens 6 agree with me and say that "Doorman" is Billy Lovelady. --Tommy

On this we must agree to disagree, forever. You need to believe it was the vertically-striped shirt because you believe that Doorman in Altgens 6 was photographically altered from Oswald to Lovelady. I refuse to go along with that scenario. Who, other than Lovelady, could have been wearing a red shirt on the TSBD steps as the motorcade went by, as captured in other photographs or films taken that day? Or were they altered, too? --Tommy

Sorry, you need to rephrase that to "Thomas, it does not matter that the vertical stripes can not be discerned." And btw, you haven't "illustrated" anything here. Only in your own mind. You know, the funny thing is that I tend to agree with you that it is Lovelady and Shelley in Darnell / Couch or Weigman or whatever it is. What we disagree on is the kind of shirt he's wearing. I say he's wearing his long sleeved, mostly-red "plaid" shirt, and you insist (for Cinque-est / Altered "Doorman" reasons) that he's wearing his short sleeved, red-and-white vertically-striped one, but that's totally understandable because you are suffering from cognitive dissonance, aren't you. LOL --Tommy

Unless they remembered incorrectly or lied, Robert P., unless they remembered incorrectly or lied. Now, why would they lie? --Tommy

Have you noticed that his shirt has a distinct "plaid" or "bold checked" pattern for several consecutive "frames" at the beginning of the slo-mo gif? The fact that it looks "plaid" or "boldly checked" for so long suggests to me that what we are seeing there is not the result of the "enlarging" process, contrary to what you suggest. And if it were the case, then you'd still be SOL because it would be impossible to tell exactly what kind of pattern the shirt he's wearing has got, wouldn't it. --Tommy

Tosh Plumlee told me in an e-mail that DCM was "Gator," a member of the abort team, and that "Gator" was raising his arm like that in an attempt to get the attention of Tosh and Sergio on the opposite grassy knoll, trying to let them know that he'd lost radio contact. He told me that after the shooting stopped, "Gator" walked down towards the underpass to "clear the area." He also told me that "Gator's" legs tended to cramp up after sitting for a few minutes, and that the guy filmed several minutes later, walking from right to left across the infield grass with a bad limp, might have been "Gator.". Sorry Tosh, but the only part I buy is that the guy limping across the infield grass might have been DCM. --Tommy

Only if the Chargers move there. Just kidding. "Just stay, baby." --Tommy Fine. Thanks. Now how about my second question in that post. To wit, when did the bad guys decide to (not set up, but) frame "Marina's husband" -- five minutes before the assassination, or five minutes after? --Tommy bumped

If you watch a closeup of the Couch / Darnell film clip at issue, you'll notice that "Lovelady's" shirt has a bold "checked" or "plaid" pattern, not a vertically-striped one. credit: Gerda Dunkel

Only if the Chargers move there. Just kidding. "Just stay, baby." --Tommy Fine. Thanks. Now how about my second question in that post. To wit, when did the bad guys decide to (not set up, but) frame "Marina's husband" -- five minutes before the assassination, or five minutes after? --Tommy

Only if the Chargers move there. Just kidding. "Just stay, baby." --Tommy

Right, Jon. Well, I guess the really high-level guys could have their buddies do magical things with 8mm film clips back in the day. Maybe the bad guys had Walt Disney alter the Martin and Hughes "Lovelady" film clips. "Big Mac" probably knew Walt. Walt probably owed him, big time. You know, the opium and everything. --Tommy

I feel your pain, Jon. After watching thread after thread I started on Oswald being hijacked here a few years back, I was told by one of the main hijackers that no one has proprietary ownership of threads. This was not disputed by the owners or moderators at the time. Maybe that policy has changed? Dear Mr. Jon G. Tidd, Just curious -- what's the difference between being set up as a patsy and being framed? BTW, have you decided yet when it was that the bad guys decided to "set up as the patsy" or "frame" "Marina's husband" for the murder of JFK -- five minutes before the assassination or five minutes after? Thank you, --Tommy

Mark, You think Oswald was a "mole" who got whacked by mobbed-up Angleton? How about the idea that he was used as a "dangle" in Russia to catch Popov's mole? Or is it just that you like guacamole? --Tommy

Brad, Since "alterations are not always easy to detect in visual copies," it's all too easy and tempting to say that everything photographic was altered or "staged" and then to try to force the disbelievers (like me) to "prove" that they weren't. Isn't it. LOL --Tommy

FWIW, I think Shelley was lying when he said "Yeah" instead of "Yes" or "Yes, sir." I also think he was lying when he says "Yes, uh-huh" after being asked if he had seen Baker run into the TSBD while standing on the "divider" between Elm Street and the Elm Street Extension. He answers all of the other questions with a "Yes" or a "Yes, sir." That's my "take" on it. --Tommy Interesting observation, Thomas. Thanks, Robert P. Now for a little Devil's Advocate argument: If Shelley and Lovelady remained on the TSBD steps until Gloria Calvary told them JFK had been shot, why then aren't they visible on the steps in any of the films / photographs after Altgens 6? Or are they? --Tommy

FWIW, I think Shelley was lying when he said "Yeah" instead of "Yes" or "Yes, sir." I also think he was lying when he says "Yes, uh-huh" after being asked if he had seen Baker run into the TSBD while standing on the "divider" between Elm Street and the Elm Street Extension. He answers all of the other questions with a "Yes" or a "Yes, sir." That's my "take" on it. If Shelley and Lovelady remained on the TSBD steps until Gloria Calvary told them JFK had been shot, why then aren't they visible on the steps in any of the films / photographs after Altgens 6? Edit: Or are they? Here's part of Shelley's WC testimony: Mr. BALL - Then what happened? Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute. Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there? Mr. BALL - Yes. Mr. SHELLEY - That little, old side street runs in front of our building and Elm Street. Mr. BALL - It dead ends? Mr. SHELLEY - There's concrete between the two streets. Mr. BALL - Elm Street dead ends there just beyond the building, doesn't it? Mr. SHELLEY - Well, that's also Elm that goes under the triple underpass. Mr. BALL - That is Elm that goes under the triple underpass? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - You went to the concrete between the two Elm Streets? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, where they split. Mr. BALL - You went out there and then what did you do? Mr. SHELLEY - Well, officers started running down to the railroad yards and Billy and I walked down that way. Mr. BALL - How did you get down that way; what course did you take? Mr. SHELLEY - We walked down the middle of the little street. Mr. BALL - The dead-end street? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building? Mr. SHELLEY - Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island. Mr. BALL - While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building? Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit. Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Going to watch the rest of the parade were you? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - The Vice President hadn't gone by, had he, by your place? Mr. SHELLEY - I don't know. I didn't recognize him. I did recognize Mr. Kennedy and his suntan I had been hearing about. Mr. BALL - How did you happen to see Truly? Mr. SHELLEY - We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly. Mr. BALL - And Truly? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building? MMr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in. Mr. BALL - Were they moving at the time, walking or running? Mr. SHELLEY - Well, they were moving, yes. Mr. BALL - Were they running? Mr. SHELLEY - That, I couldn't swear to; there were so many people around. Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do? Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end. Mr. BALL - At the west end? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room. Mr. BALL - When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody? Mr. SHELLEY - I saw Eddie Piper. Mr. BALL - What was he doing? Mr. SHELLEY - He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room. Mr. BALL - Of the first floor of the building? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes. Mr. BALL - Who else did you see? Mr. SHELLEY - That's all we saw immediately. Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Vickie Adams? Mr. SHELLEY - I saw her that day but I don't remember where I saw her. Mr. BALL - You don't remember whether you saw her when you came back? Mr. SHELLEY - It was after we entered the building. Mr. BALL - You think you did see her after you entered the building? Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; I thought it was on the fourth floor awhile after that. --Tommy

Robert P., I can't imagine that Lovelady, a convicted purveyor of stolen military guns and former fugitive, would lie about anything. LOL --Tommy That is possibly what made it easy to make him lie in his testimony. "You ever been to prison, son? Wellllll, we'd hate like hell for you to end up back there now, wouldn't we." "But we gotta 400-pound boy we gotta keep inna cage by the name a 'Bubba' who's jus' a-dyin' ta meet ya." --Tommy PS for Robert P. -- I don't think that's Gloria Calvary running past "Shelley" and "Lovelady" in Darnell / Couch. Calvary was photographed wearing a light-colored dress and a dark-colored blouse or coat, but in Couch / Darnell the colors are reversed. credit: Gerda Dunkel credit: posted on jfkassassinationforum by Robin Unger

Why do you believe Lovelady? He was a convicted criminal -- purveyor of a stolen military weapon and former fugitive. --Tommy "Maddening" Mady, Why do you believe Lovelady? He was a convicted criminal -- purveyor of a stolen military weapon and former fugitive. --Tommy "Maddening" Mady, It's funny how you never did answer my questions in a declarative manner. Guess you are simply incapable of doing that. Regardless -- What if Groden was wrong and the Martin and Hughes "Lovelady" clips were filmed, let's say, 18.75 or 23.50 or 46.25 minutes after the assassination. Would you be happy then? How long after the assassination must it be for you to be willing to accept the fact that that's Lovelady standing and smoking a cigarette in front of the TSBD in the Martin and Hughes clips? Oh, I see. The big problem is the long sleeved, mostly red "plaid" shirt that Lovelady's wearing in those clips. It's a big problem for you because it would mean that Doorman was Lovelady, not Oswald, in Altgens 6. But wait! Haven't you heard of Sean Murphy's Prayerman who has been shown to (most probably) be Oswald? It's too bad that Prayerman / Oswald was so far above and behind and to the left of Lovelady in Altgens 6 as to not be visible in that photograph. But he is visible in Couch / Darnell, which was shot from a "better" angle. And it's too bad that Lovelady is not visible on the steps in Couch / Darnell. Or is he? Maybe he's sitting down again, finishing his lunch... --Tommy