Thomas Graves

Has anyone tried to find Clean Linen Service in the Dallas phone books of the day? --Tommy

Jon, I figured you'd try to avoid my difficult questions by asking me a question. Yes, Jon. I do indeed believe that the guy with the bald spot and wearing a whit t-shirt under his long sleeved, mostly-red "plaid" shirt is Billy Lovelady. Please bear in mind that he is jutting his chin out and exhaling cigarette smoke through his mouth, thereby distorting his face. Also notice that he was overdue for a haircut and looked like he'd been pigging out and / or drinking too much beer (overweight) I know that his presence in front of the TSBD at that time might conflict with other "evidence" in the case, or might be a "spanner in the works" for some "researchers." Tough beans. I also believe that Lovelady was "captured" in another film while he was sitting in a chair in the police station and Oswald was taken past him, and I note his bald spot and how it also appears on the "Lovelady character" in the Martin film clip. I do not believe that the individual "captured" on film in the police station was a dwarf actor wearing Lovelady's shirt... That's what I believe, Jon. Please try to talk me out of it. Sincerely, --Tommy PS Why do you ask? edited and bumped Could that be Secret Service agent Rufus Youngblood, top left of steps, wearing the fedora with the wide black band?

Jimmy Durante once asked me on a train if I'd caught any fish. True story. Now that was a moment. --Tommy

Dear Jon, I figured you'd try to avoid my difficult questions by asking me a question. Yes, Jon. I do indeed believe that the guy with the bald spot and wearing a whit t-shirt under his long sleeved, mostly-red "plaid" shirt is Billy Lovelady. Please bear in mind that he is jutting his chin out and exhaling cigarette smoke through his mouth, thereby distorting his face. Also notice that he was overdue for a haircut and looked like he'd been pigging out and / or drinking too much beer (overweight) I know that his presence in front of the TSBD at that time might conflict with other "evidence" in the case, or might be a "spanner in the works" for some "researchers." Tough beans. I also believe that Lovelady was "captured" in another film while he was sitting in a chair in the police station and Oswald was taken past him, and I note his bald spot and how it also appears on the "Lovelady character" in the Martin film clip. I do not believe that the individual "captured" on film in the police station was a dwarf actor wearing Lovelady's shirt... That's what I believe, Jon. Please try to talk me out of it. Sincerely, --Tommy

Jon, I think you're starting to catch on. --Tommy

Dear Jon, I'm only talking about the Martin and the Hughes clips which show Lovelady in front of the TSBD after the assassination. Do you think it was possible for the bad guys to photographically insert Lovelady into both clips and synchronize his movements in them? -or- Do you think it was possible for the bad guys to "stage," at a later date, the TSBD / Lovelady scene in Martin's and Hughes' film clips, and get away with it? Do please try to be all inclusive. But only about these two clips and the circumstances under which they might have been altered or staged... --Tommy

Jon G. Tidd,, You seem to be suggesting that the bad guys either photographically altered both the Martin clip and the Hughes clip to make Lovelady appear in them, or that the scene was staged at a later date. Update: Taking your most recent post on the subject (#23, this thread) into consideration, do you think that the guy who at least resembled Lovelady and was wearing the mostly-red "plaid" shirt in front of the TSBD was wearing a shirt like Lovelady's by sheer coincidence, or do you think that this TSBD scene was staged at a later date? --Tommy

Great punchline, Mark. Kinda took my breath away... But seriously, Marlon, what do you think of my idea that Bender / Droller was "Charron"? -- Question: Would it have been logical for W.C. King to include Bender / Droller in the August 21,1959, brainstorming session which dealt with what Phillips should do if he were to be interrogated by the Cuban authorities? And a new question: Could it have been Bender / Droller who, in mid-1960, sicced David Attlee Phillips on Antonio Veciana in Cuba, through Veciana's friend / Bender's contact, Rufo Lopez-Fresquet? http://www.jfk-online.com/daphscavec.html (see footnotes 122, 144, and 162) https://books.google.com/books?id=aCw19CUXpqkC&pg=PA396&lpg=PA396&dq=jon+anderson+che+guevara+%22frank+bender%22&source=bl&ots=JT-Mer9_sN&sig=-8mPZnnuzx8stWFtCASGYoSF1KM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2VgKVYP2CsLYggSRrIEw&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=jon%20anderson%20che%20guevara%20%22frank%20bender%22&f=false Thanks, --Tommy Bumped for Bill Simpich or a comparable heavyweight.

Knock yourself out, John. I can just about tell the time on a clock. Can any of the women in the clips be identified? If so, were they interviewed or did they give testimony? --Tommy

Thanks Ray. Time for an update. Current Poll Results: The Question: Were the Martin and Hughes clips, which show Lovelady in front of the TSBD 8 to 15 minutes after the assassination, "abnormal" (faked/staged at a later date) or "normal" (not faked/staged)? "Abnormal" -- Robert Mady "Normal" -- Tommy, Carmine, Vanessa, Paul B., Bob P., Gary, LARRY HANCOCK, Roger. Ray, and Randy. Aren't there any more "abnormals" out there? Is Robert Mady the only one? lol --Tommy Ten "normals" to one "abnormal" so far. The normals seem to be running away with it... --Tommy

It was Jarman, Greg. We do not know exactly what was happening on the steps, why Williams is left where he is whilst either Jarman or Norman are dragged back inside. Timestamping this film is difficult because of the mess left behind by the three of them concerning their movements. This could be 3-4 minutes after the assassination or it could be much longer. I don't know it this helps, but we do know that Bonnie Ray Williams, Danny Arce, and Bill Shelley were taken away in a police car for questioning at some point. If that event could be time stamped, it might help us to narrow down the period of time during which the Martin and Hughes clips (showing Lovelady, et al. in front of the TSBD after the assassination) were shot. --Tommy

Thanks Ray. Time for an update. Current Poll Results: The Question: Were the Martin and Hughes clips, which show Lovelady in front of the TSBD 8 to 15 minutes after the assassination, "abnormal" (faked/staged at a later date) or "normal" (not faked/staged)? "Abnormal" -- Robert Mady "Normal" -- Tommy, Carmine, Vanessa, Paul B., Bob P., Gary, LARRY HANCOCK, Roger. Ray, and Randy. Aren't there any more "abnormals" out there? Is Robert Mady the only one? lol --Tommy

In order to get this thread back on track, why don't we just start all over again. LOL --Tommy

And last but not least, the "poll" results as they now stand: Vanessa, Okie dokie! Into the "normal" side Bob P. goes. Unless, of course, he really really insists on being on the "abnormal" side (lol) , or would prefer to abstain. Poll Update: The Martin and Hughes Clips Showing Lovelady In Front Of The TSBD After The Assassination Were-- "Abnormal / Suspicious / Faked / Staged" -- Mady "Normal" -- Tommy, Vanessa, Carmine, Paul B, and have I forgotten anybody...? Oh yes -- Bob P. --Tommy

Another one: Vanessa, In this poll, casting an "abnormal" vote is the same thing as saying that one agrees with Mady that the two film clips showing Lovelady in front of the TSBD after the assassination are "suspicious" -- that they were "faked" or "staged" sometime after 11/22/63. "Abnormal" here means "Suspicious" which is a polite word for "Faked" and "Staged". My using the word "abnormal" was a joke, a play on words, so that I could put Mady in the "abnormal" category, at least semantically speaking. Get it? I should have just said "Suspicious," I guess. I suspect that Bob P. thinks that the two clips are not suspicious / faked/ staged, but instead that they are perfectly "normal." I thought he was just making a joke himself when he wrote, "You want abnormal? I'll give you abnormal." Now I'm really confused. But then again for me that's perfectly ............. normal. So which side of the poll do you want me to put Bob P. on? On the "abnormal" side with Mady, or on the "normal" side with you and me? lol --Tommy

Another post from the "Oswald Leaving TSBD?" thread which I've decided to bring over here: Are you nuts? The President of the United States has just been shot, apparently from the TSBD. The sniper may still be inside the building. The authorities are searching for him inside the building. They could theoretically drag the sniper out through the front door at any moment. A policeman is doing "traffic control" at the front door. It's an exciting afternoon and the TSBD is one of the focal points. I see nothing unusual whatsoever about two amateur photographers filming the goings on outside the TSBD some 8 to 15 minutes after the assassination. What do other members think about this? Are these two film clips of a suspicious or normal nature, given the circumstances? Thanks, --Tommy PS -- Mady, The burden of proof is on you. It's your theory.

Ever heard of common sense, Robert? None of the "extras" spilled the beans because of "National Security"? LOL --Tommy Mady wrote: So in other words you have no evidence to show that the scenes could not have been staged. Is it that you feel very strongly that it could not be conceivably possible? I don't want to put words in your mouth but you have not provided any reasoning for your opinion other than it is unimaginable to you. [...] I have no doubt they could have done it, there is no technical reason or insurmountable obstacle to have prevented them from doing so. The fact that WILLIAMS and ARCE and extras never spilled the beans could be a proof of "national Security" threat wouldn't it? [...] Mady, The burden of proof is on you, not me. It's your theory. So please tell us how the bad guys could have / would have "staged" or "faked" the scene which was captured simultaneously in the John Martin and Robert Hughes films in which Lovelady is smoking a cigarette in front of the TSBD a few minutes after the assassination and in close proximity to his co-workers Bonnie Ray Williams and Danny Arce. You do agree that Bonnie Ray Williams and Danny Arce are visible in the John Martin film (post #1470, this thread), don't you, or do you think they were paid "extras"? You do agree that they are in front of the TSBD, don't you, or are they in front of a fake building made to look like the TSBD? You do agree that both films were shot during daylight hours, don't you, or do you think they were shot at night, using artificial light? You do agree that DPD policemen are visible in both films, don't you, or do you think they were paid "extras"? Etc... If you think both films were "faked" and "staged" just to make it look like Lovelady had been wearing his long sleeved, mostly-red, "plaid" shirt on 11/22/63, why do you think the bad guys went to the trouble to film the scene from two slightly-different positions? Wouldn't one fake film have been sufficient? --Tommy Post # 1470, this thread. Scroll down to see the John Martin and Robert Hughes clips of this scene juxtaposed: Robert, Yes, that's Lovelady at 1:33 (wearing his unbuttoned red, grey, and black plaid shirt over his white t-shirt) directly under the letter "T" in "DEPOSITORY". To answer your question, I think it was several minutes after the assassination as the police are letting workers into the building again. In fact at the very end you can see Lovelady start making his way up the stairs towards the front door. Sorry I can't be more specific. Perhaps another forum member can educate us. --Tommy And now for a little followup. From post # 1156, this thread, by Sean Murphy: #2. LOVELADY IS ASKED EXPLICITLY ABOUT A PRAYER MAN-STYLE SCENARIO. First the HSCA interviewer asks Lovelady to identify himself in Altgens. Lovelady immediately does so. Next Lovelady is shown an image he has never seen before: a frame from the John Martin film [contemporaneous with the Robert Hughes clip you're talking about, Mr Prudhomme] showing him (Lovelady) standing over by the east side of the entrance some 8-15 minutes post-assassination (a time estimate given by photographic consultant Robert Groden, who is present in the room). Lovelady identifies himself immediately. [...] --Tommy And last but not least! From a Robin Unger post # 142 on the "Neweusem Displays Oswald's Shirt" thread: Martin / Hughes film sync TSBD doorway Credit: Gerda Dunckel Give the Gif time to load (If you look closely at the Martin clip, you'll see that Lovelady is smoking. When he exhales through his mouth, it distorts his face because he juts his jaw out. Also note that when he turns his head away from the TSBD and exhales, a tiny vertical strip of Lovelady's t-shirt is visible in his chest area. So his shirt was unbuttoned, after all!) Note: Lovelady is visible in the Hughes clip above, too, but you can't see much of his shirt. Just his huge bald spot. LOL --Tommy Is that Howard Brennan (wearing the hardhat and overalls) walking in from the left with someone else near the end of the Hughes film? PS Please note that Bonnie Ray Williams is visible in both clips, and Danny Arce is visible in the Martin clip. Mady, Can you recognize the "Bonnie Ray Williams" and "Danny Arce" characters in the Martin clip, and "Bonnie Ray Williams" in the Hughes clip ("Danny Arce" is obscured by people standing in the foreground)? They are there. Let me know if you need some help spotting them. Did you know that Bonnie Ray Williams and Danny Arce were Lovelady's co-workers at the TSBD? --Tommy Not wanting to derail the "Oswald Leaving The TSBD?" thead any more than I already have, I've decided to start a new thread.

Susan, What you say about psych research on long-term versus short-term memory is fascinating to me for the following reason. A few years ago I interviewed a (since deceased) ninety-something year old former ONI special agent who admitted to me that he had "very probably" conducted an investigation of Oswald at Marine Corps Air Station El Toro right after Oswald "defected" to Russia not only because El Toro was in the agent's assigned Naval District, but also because, well, the agent just happened to be "the best investigator the ONI had." He told me that he was a very close friend of fellow Texan Paul Bentley, the cigar-chomping polygraph-specialist Dallas Police Officer who helped drag Oswald out of the Texas Theater, and he had also known most of the Dallas FBI agents, etc, back in the day due to his working with them on his many ONI-related visits to Dallas over the years. Paul Bentley on youtube: Now, getting back to the memory deal, when I asked the retired ONI special agent some "trick questions" to kinda set him up and test his long-term memory, I decided to ask him how long the small ship was that he had commanded during WWII (his answer ended with "and a half-foot" and was "off" from Wikipedia's specs for the ship by only -- and exactly -- one foot), so that kinda impressed me regarding his long-term memory. Then I asked him if he remembered where he was when he heard that Peal Harbor had been attacked, and he immediately said "Brownwood, Texas," which also favorably impressed me. But when I asked him the sixty-four thousand dollar question, he just sat there and looked at me like the proverbial deer in the headlights, and said that for the life of him he just couldn't remember. The question of course was "Where were you when you heard that President Kennedy had been shot?" It's absolutely amazing which memories fade away completely over the years, isn't it. Probably just the personally unimportant ones or maybe just the ones that are just too gosh darned painful to recall. By the way, when I asked him where the Dallas ONI office was situated in 1963, he said that it was "across the street, it was in the Postal Building, it was in the building that Kennedy was killed from." Which makes me think that although Kennedy wasn't necessarily shot from the Terminal Annex Building, the observation post / command post might very well have been in one of it's upper-floor offices. Just sayin'..... Good luck with your research, --Tommy PS the correct spelling of the guy you're talking about is "Tippit." not "Tippet." Just a little friendly "tip" for you... PPS In case anyone is interested, the retired ONI special agent I interviewed on tape a few years ago was Robert D(avid) Steel, Lt Cmdr U.S. Navy, retired. I sent the tape of Steel's interview to the great researcher and blogger Bill Kelly, but I don't know if he ever transcribed it correctly and completely. The last time I checked his blog site a couple of years ago, he hadn't. Unfortunately, I didn't make a "dub" of the tape for myself to keep and Bill Kelly has refused, so far, to return the original to me. I guess he lost my mailing address or e-mail address or something, or maybe the tape was "lost" or "accidentally erased"... http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKkellyW.htm bumped

Since it's Kelly's thread, I'd say it's totally irrelevant. Hi Bill! (just kidding) --Tommy PS When are you going to send me my interview of retired ONI special agent Robert D. Steel tape back, or a good copy of it? Which you said in an e-mail you would do a couple of years ago. --Thanks bumped for Bill Kelly who is with us as I type this...

Vanessa, Okie dokie! Into the "normal" side he goes. Unless, of course, he really insists on being on the "abnormal" side (lol) , or would prefer to abstain. Poll Update: The Martin and Hughes Clips Showing Lovelady In Front Of The TSBD Were-- "Abnormal / Suspicious / Faked / Staged" -- Mady "Normal" -- Tommy, Vanessa, Carmine, Bob. P., have I forgotten anybody?, oh yes -- Paul B. --Tommy

Since it's Kelly's thread, I'd say it's totally irrelevant. Hi Bill! (just kidding) --Tommy PS When are you going to send me my interview of retired ONI special agent Robert D. Steel tape back, or a good copy of it? Which you said in an e-mail you would do a couple of years ago. --Thanks

Vanessa, In this poll, casting an "abnormal" vote is the same thing as saying that one agrees with Mady that the two film clips showing Lovelady in front of the TSBD after the assassination are "suspicious" -- that they were "faked" or "staged" sometime after 11/22/63. "Abnormal" here means "Suspicious" which is a polite word for "Faked" and "Staged". My using the word "abnormal" was a joke, a play on words, so that I could put Mady in the "abnormal" category, at least semantically speaking. Get it? I should have just said "Suspicious," I guess. I suspect that Bob P. thinks that the two clips are not suspicious / faked/ staged, but instead that they are perfectly "normal." I thought he was just making a joke himself when he wrote, "You want abnormal? I'll give you abnormal." Now I'm really confused. But then again for me that's perfectly ............. normal. So which side of the poll do you want me to put Bob P. on? On the "abnormal" side with Mady, or on the "normal" side with you and me? lol --Tommy

Great punchline, Mark. Kinda took my breath away... But seriously, Marlon, what do you think of my idea that Bender / Droller was "Charron"? -- Question: Would it have been logical for W.C. King to include Bender / Droller in the August 21,1959, brainstorming session which dealt with what Phillips should do if he were to be interrogated by the Cuban authorities? And a new question: Could it have been Bender / Droller who, in mid-1960, sicced David Attlee Phillips on Antonio Veciana in Cuba, through Veciana's friend / Bender's contact, Rufo Lopez-Fresquet? http://www.jfk-online.com/daphscavec.html (see footnotes 122, 144, and 162) https://books.google.com/books?id=aCw19CUXpqkC&pg=PA396&lpg=PA396&dq=jon+anderson+che+guevara+%22frank+bender%22&source=bl&ots=JT-Mer9_sN&sig=-8mPZnnuzx8stWFtCASGYoSF1KM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2VgKVYP2CsLYggSRrIEw&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=jon%20anderson%20che%20guevara%20%22frank%20bender%22&f=false Thanks, --Tommy

Vanessa, I don't believe my fellow gold prospector has cast a vote yet as to whether or not he thinks the Martin and Hughes film clips, (viewable in post # 1592, above) were suspicious in nature (i.e., "abnormal") or not (i.e., "normal"). Please correct me if I am mistaken. Of course, on a personal level I believe that Bob P. is very, very ... --Tommy