Thomas Graves

Larry, Didn't the Naval Attache at the US Embassy in Moscow send a cable right away, notifying ONI that Oswald had threatened to commit espionage? That would have been all ONI / CIA needed to initiate their investigations of Oswald's background and those of his Marine colleagues at El Toro. (Going from memory here. Always a dangerous thing.) What's interesting to me is that ONI kept bugging State not on the espionage issue, but on the "did he or did he not renounce his citizenship" issue. --Tommy

Larry, Going from memory again, but I've read that Oswald really didn't "belong" in that bar (the Queen Bee?) in the first place. It was supposedly a "classy joint" which catered to officers, not enlisted men, and would have been too expensive for him. That and the fact that he had a beautiful Japanese girlfriend (who I believe worked at the Queen Bee) and that he contracted a venereal disease "in the line of duty" in Japan suggests to me that he was performing some sort of intelligence mission at that bar, and that his "operational expenses" there were being paid for by someone else, perhaps the ONI. I've read that at least some of the beautiful girls who worked at the Queen Bee were suspected of being KGB agents whose job it was to ply military secrets from U.S. officers who had, perhaps, imbibed just a wee bit too much liquor there and, of course, simultaneously fallen "in love" with the girls who were giving them so much "attention". I think Oswald might have been sent to the Queen Bee by his ONI / Marine Corps superiors who realized that the girls would assume that Oswald, being just a poor enlisted man (a Private!), must himself be an intelligence agent, that they would probably try to "turn" him, and that this would afford the ONI an excellent opportunity to have Oswald feed the KGB some incorrect military information. Just wondering: Did Oswald pretend to his Queen Bee girlfriend (who was seen with Oswald in other places than the Queen Bee) that she had effectively "turned" him? --Tommy

Robert, Sounds good to me (so far). Thanks, --Tommy

Larry, I think there are indications that at least the CIA took seriously Oswald's treat to commit espionage. I read in Oswald and the CIA or somewhere that there were Marine Corps witnesses to the effect that there were two investigations of Oswald at El Toro right after he "defected" to Russia, a cursory "known" investigation by the ONI, probably by the retired ONI special agent from Texas whom I interviewed a few years ago in La Jolla (who told me he was, ironically, a good friend of Paul Bentley, the DPD polygraph officer who helped arrest Oswald at the theater), and a much more serious "secret" and in-depth investigation by "men in suits" (CIA?), who even brought with them a stenographer to take notes. When I asked the retired ONI special agent what kind of clothes he would have worn to his investigation of Oswald at El Toro (which he said he probably did because "he was the best investigator the ONI had"), he said "casual clothes", and when I asked him if he would have had a stenographer help him do that investigation, he said "no". Strangely, even though he could remember, in response to my questions, how long his small WW II ship was and where he was when he heard about the attack on Pearl Harbor, for the life of him he couldn't remember where he was when he heard JFK had been shot. He's the same guy who told me, in response to my question, that the Dallas ONI office "was in the postal building, in the building that JFK was killed from". I think he might have been hinting, inadvertently, that the assassination "command center" was in the same building that the ONI office was located in -- The Terminal Annex Building. But I digress... --Tommy

Thanks, Larry. I feel a little bit better now. Here's another thought: Since the Ruskies already knew all about the U2 (and the U.S. knew that the Ruskies knew), the only reason the ONI (in collaboration with the CIA and/or FBI) might have sent Oswald to Russia was to intentionally create a revocation or non-revocation of Oswald's citizenship "issue" with the State Department in a attempt to somehow smoke out suspected moles in the "Commie ridden" State Department. Too far fetched? I suppose it is. Oh well, back to the drawing board... --Tommy PS Do you believe that the ONI had a false defector program in the late 1950's? CIA? Air Force? Who else, if anyone? Do you think Robert Webster defected on his own (for the love of his Russian girlfriend)?

Robert, Just trying to understand what you're saying. So I gotta ask some "dumb" questions: was your "shot at approx. Z-189" a rifle shot? If so, was it the first "rifle shot"? Were all of the shots that were fired rifle shots? How many shots were fired all together? Believe it or not, I don't necessarily have an agenda on this. I'm not arguing with you here. Just trying to understand without reading all your previous posts. LOL Thanks, --Tommy

Larry, I just looked at it again and of course I was wrong. I made the cardinal sin of "going from memory" and confused his "hardship" discharge from active duty (before his "defection") with his "undesireable" discharge from the Marine Reserves which came after his "defection". OK, so Oswald was not sent to Russia by the ONI. Maybe by the CIA, but not by the ONI. Got it. Sorry... (Egg on face) --Tommy

Larry, (See page 5:) http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/S%20Disk/Scott%20Peter%20Dale/Item%2002.pdf --Tommy PS Of course now I'm afraid that you're going to conclude that I misinterpreted what Scott said. Which I probably did. LOL

Larry, Thanks. Question: What do you make of P.D. Scott's analysis in this essay? Specifically, his view that ONI and Marine G-2 collaborated ahead of time on Oswald's "hardship" discharge from active Marine Corp duty? Am I reading Scott correctly on that? If so, what are your thoughts on the subject? http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/S%20Disk/Scott%20Peter%20Dale/Item%2002.pdf Thanks again, --Tommy

Larry, So if what you say is true, do you think that would have precluded the ONI from sending Oswald to Russia as a false defector? P. D. Scott seems to think that ONI and Marine G-2 documents suggest that the ONI and Marine Corps collaborated before Oswald applied for a "hardship discharge" (or whatever it was called -- to take care of his "injured" - at - work mother) to ensure ahead of time that he would be granted that discharge. That is, if I'm understanding what he says... http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/S%20Disk/Scott%20Peter%20Dale/Item%2002.pdf --Tommy

Robert, I hope you understand that I agree with you that the limo slowed down dramatically before the fatal head shot. I've believed that for a long time. If that's what you're saying. LOL --Tommy

Jon, You ask: Why would the ONI have tracked Oswald? If Oswald wasn't an ONI false defector, he must have seemed to be a true defector or, heaven forbid, a wanna-be spy doing such crazy things as trying to renounce his citizenship and announcing his intention to commit espionage regarding the radar and new height-finding device he'd used for tracking the U2, as well as something "of special interest". Oswald's MOS was "aviation electronics operator" and, having worked with the U2 spy plane in that capacity, he probably had a high-level security clearance. (His former commanding officer at El Toro said that everyone who worked inside the radar "bubble" must have had a minimum security clearance of "secret".) Or was it something more "sinister" (in the context of the JFK assassination) than that? I believe ONI sent to Russia several false defectors in the late 1950's, and it seems to me that Oswald fit the profile of an ONI false defector, sent there to see if the Ruskies were interested in learning what he knew about Marine Corps radar and the U2. If they weren't interested, that would suggest that the drunk Russian general, whom Colonel Popov heard say (before Oswald appeared on the scene) that the Russian military already knew (or thought they knew) all about the U2, was correct, which in turn would indicate that there was a mole in US intelligence who had leaked the U2 information to the Russians. I said "sinister" because it would mean that Oswald had been an intelligence agent who had been manipulated while in Japan and in Russia and back in the U.S., again. Was Popov's mole real or just a figment of Angleton's imagination? If real, was he (or she) ever found by US intelligence? I realize that Popov himself was arrested and executed by the KGB probably due to the bungled trade craft of his CIA contacts / controllers in Russa, and not due to a mole per se. But what about what that drunken Russian general had told Popov about the U2? Did the Russians really know all about the U2 before Oswald went to Russia? I wouldn't be surprised if they did. Could Oswald have told the girls at the Queen Bee about the U-2? http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/S%20Disk/Scott%20Peter%20Dale/Item%2002.pdf --Tommy edited and bumped Edited and bumped again. Jus' tryin' to get a reasoned response from Tidd or Hancock, or...

Ray, IMHO, Hargis would have had plenty of room if just the Queen Mary (the SS car) stopped. But it's immaterial because Hargis' riding between the two cars obviously took place after the fatal head shot. What I'm willing to argue against is the idea that the limo came to a complete stop before the fatal head shot. --Tommy

Robert, I can't believe it. We actually agree on something. Maybe there's hope for me yet. LOL Have a good day, --Tommy PS The fact that the motorcycles and the Queen Mary caught up a bit with the limo and then stopped or nearly stopped would contribute to the illusion that the limo itself had come to a complete stop.

Hi B. A., Good to see you here again. My "take" on it is that the limo did not come to a complete stop but did slow down dramatically for a second or two. I think the witnesses who said that it came to a complete stop just noticed the red brake lights coming on as Greer braked, saw the limo slow down abruptly as Hill was running towards it, trying to climb aboard, and then saw the limo rapidly accelerate away, and due to the dreamlike and hectic "confusion of the moment", later thought they remembered seeing the limo actually stop, but it hadn't. But then again, I'm probably wrong, and I'm just a "dumb cluck" who's suffering from a very severe case of "Cognitive Dissonance". LOL --Tommy

Jon, You ask: Why would the ONI have tracked Oswald? Well, gosh, if Oswald wasn't an ONI false defector to Russia, then he must have seemed to be a true defector or, heaven forbid, a wanna-be spy doing such crazy things as trying to renounce his citizenship and announcing his intention to commit espionage.about the radar he'd used in tracking the U2 for the CIA and the Marine Corps (a department of the Navy), as well as something "of special interest". Oswald's MOS was "aviation electronics operator" and, having worked with the U2 spy plane in that capacity, he probably had a high-level security clearance. (His former commanding officer at El Toro said that everyone who worked inside the radar "bubble" must have had a minimum security clearance of "secret".) Or was it something more "sinister" (in the context of the JFK assassination) than that? To wit: I believe ONI sent to Russia several false defectors in the late 1950's, and it seems to me that Oswald fit the profile of an ONI false defector, sent there to see if the Ruskies were even interested in learning what he knew about Marine Corps radar and the U2. If they weren't interested, that would suggest that the drunk Russian general, whom Colonel Popov heard say (before Oswald appeared on the scene) that the Russian military already knew (or thought they knew) all about the U2, was correct, which in turn would indicate that there was a mole in US intelligence who had leaked the U2 information to the Russians. I said "sinister" above because this would mean that Oswald had been an intelligence agent who, by definition, had been manipulated or controlled by his intelligence "controllers" while in the U.S. and then in Russia and then back in the U.S., again. Here's a weird but interesting question that just now sprang into my mind: Could Oswald have been that mole, having spilled the U2 secrets to his beautiful Japanese "girlfriend" at the "Queen Bee" when he was stationed at Atsugi? Questions: Was Popov's mole real or just a figment of Angleton's imagination? If real, was he (or she) ever found by US intelligence? I realize that Popov himself was arrested and executed by the KGB probably due to the bungled trade craft of his CIA contacts / controllers in Russa, and not due to a mole per se. But what about what that drunken Russian general and what he had told Popov about the U2? Did the Russians really know all about the U2 before Oswald went to Russia? I wouldn't be surprised if they did. --Tommy edited and bumped

Dawn, Fair enough. --Tommy

Dawn, I agree with you that it would be nice if Baker were to submit to a polygraph exam. Let me say, however, that If I was standing in line at the post office (which usually lasts several minutes - lol) and noticed that the person in front of me was going to mail a letter addressed to someone in the Czech Republic, I would ask them if they spoke Czech, and if so, I would try to "impress" them by speaking a little Czech to them (having lived in that country for several years), so I don't think it's implausible that Oswald and Baker "just began" (as you say) to speak Russian with each other in that kind of situation. Maybe you think that's very strange behavior, but I don't. But then again, I'm not shy. Maybe Oswald was going to mail a letter to someone in Russia and Baker noticed it, and she struck up a conversation... You say that Baker unfriended you on FB and that you think she has "some serious mental health issues? I gotta ask - do you say that because she disagrees with Armstrong, or because she unfriended you, or both? --Tommy

Hoover's "incompetent" FBI was able to survive the disaster by having James Hosty destroy a crucial note and by having LBJ put The Bureau in charge of the Investigation. Which might have been a prearranged deal between Hoover and LBJ, anyway... --Tommy

I'd be willing to bet that their partial prints ARE on the note. Just not COMPLETE enough prints to be positively identified as theirs. You probably know more about it than I do. Were there any "partial" prints found on the note which were deemed useless for identification purposes? (I'll bet there were.) You're probably right, David. David Atlee Phillip's or E. Howard Hunt's or George DeMohrenschildt's "partials" were probably found on the note. LOL --Tommy

But the only alternative is to call Marina a bald-faced xxxx when it comes to the topic of the Walker note. Do you want to go down that path? She only said she found the note. To answer your question, I don't trust her because, for one thing, I think she spoke and read English a lot better before the assassination than she let on, and for another I think she was pressured by the FBI to say certain things after the assassination and perhaps even before. Don't you think it odd that neither Marina's nor Oswald's fingerprints were found on the note? --Tommy

I agree, David, but I think it odd that neither Marina's nor Oswald's prints were found on the note. What's the chance of that? --Tommy PS I guess Malcolm "Mac" Wallace was just unlucky that one of his fingerprints was found (or planted) on a box in the "sniper's lair".

With you, David, I'm gonna have to take a fifth, I mean The Fifth. It is interesting that seven latent fingerprints were found on the note, but none of them were Marina's or Oswald's... http://www.giljesus.com/Walker/note.htm --Tommy

Good questions. Comments regarding specific questions: 5. Did the person who translated the note make any comments about the grammatical quality of the note? It's logical to assume that if the grammar in the note was good, the translator wouldn't necessarily have mentioned it, whereas if the grammar was bad, the translator would have said so. 6. Is it odd in your view that the note is not signed or dated? If the note was written by Oswald, Marina would have recognized the handwriting and known that it had been written by him and put by him in the special place where she (allegedly) found it -- therefore there was no need for his potentially self-incriminating signature. If he indeed was to take a shot at Walker and was either arrested for it or were to go into hiding, Marina would have put "two plus two together" and realized that Oswald had not only written the ominous note but had actually followed through on the dastardly deed alluded to in it, and therefore no potentially self-incriminating date on the letter would have been needed for her to realize that he had written the note about his intentions against Walker. What good would it have done Marina if the note had been signed and/or dated? Should Oswald have signed it "I will love you and Junie forever"? Oswald was known for not dating many missives over the years. If someone forged the note, they could have easily forged Oswald's signature (as it apparently was forged on several other Warren Commission documents and pieces of "evidence") and correctly dated it, as well. 7. Is it odd in your view that there are no Oswald fingerprints on the note? Excellent point. See this analysis by Gil Jesus: http://www.giljesus.com/Walker/note.htm (The only thing I disagree with Gil about in his analysis of the note is whether or not Marina could read English-language newspapers well enough to be able to send to the Russian embassy any articles that might appear in the local newspapers about Oswald's shooting of Walker. I believe Marina only pretended to Ruth Paine that she couldn't speak or read English very well. In fact, in her Warren Commission testimony, Ruth Paine volunteers the information that one of her neighbors noticed that Marina's English seemed to improve so dramatically between October, 1963 and January, 1964, that the neighbor was "amazed". https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=38&relPageId=498 But I digress...) --Tommy Bumped in the interest of keeping this thread "on topic".

Why would the ONI have tracked Oswald? If he wasn't an ONI false defector to Russia, then maybe Oswald appeared to the ONI and Marine Intelligence be a true defector or even a wanna-be spy who had done such goofy things as trying to renounce his US citizenship in Russia and who had told the US Consul in Moscow that he intended to tell the Soviets all about the radar he'd used and also "something of special interest". Oswald's Marine Corps MOS was "aviation electronics operator" and, having worked with the U2 spy plane in that capacity, he probably had a relatively high-level security clearance. (His former commanding officer at El Toro said that everyone who worked inside the radar "bubble" must have had a minimum security clearance of "secret".) Or was it something more sinister than that? To wit: I believe ONI sent to Russia several false defectors in the late 1950's, and it seems to me that Oswald fit the profile of an ONI false defector, sent there to see if the Ruskies were even interested in learning what he knew about Marine Corps radar and the U2. If they weren't interested, that would suggest that the drunk Russian general, whom Popov heard say (before Oswald appeared on the scene) that the Russians already knew (or thought they knew) all about the U2, was correct, which in turn would indicate that there was a mole in US intelligence who had leaked the U2 information to the Russians. Could Oswald have been that mole, having told the U2 secrets to his Japanese "girlfriend" at the Queen Bee bar when he was stationed at Atsuki? --Tommy