Thomas Graves

From the EF's "History and Political Books" page, Larry Hancock: Someone Would Have Talked thread: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=693&page=18#entry293961 Didn't these exiles pretend to be pro-Castro (except, of course, to Silvia Odio; maybe they told Oswald they were trying to penetrate JURE for Castro)? I wonder if Oswald thought that he (Oswald) was monitoring pro-Castro "subversives"? That might explain why Nagell was unable to get Oswald to break away from them. --Tommy -------------------------------------------------------------------- PS "Don't worry, kid. We want ya to pretend to be pro-Castro and monitor these here two Cuban Communists for us. See, rumor is they wanna kill JFK from a buildin' in Chicago or Washington, D.C., or even Dallas. We're gonna get you a job at that buildin' so you can keep an eye on 'em. Don't you worry a bit, kid, jus' play along with 'em and keep reportin' to us-- we're gonna arrest 'em at the last minute and you're gonna be a gosh darn hero!"

Did these exiles pretend to be pro-Castro? I wonder if Oswald thought that he (Oswald) was monitoring pro-Castro "subversives"? That might explain why Nagell was unable to get Oswald to break away from them. --Tommy

"Atta couldn't fly a big Boeing jet." I guess you're right. I heard that he wasn't piloting it when it took off. And that he was kinda weak on his landings, too. So who "flew" it, Harvey or Lee? Or did The New World Order get some suicidal Boeing pilot to volunteer for the job? --Tommy

Do you believe Oswald was debriefed by the CIA when he returned from Russia in 1962? Do you think Oswald might have been a false defector sent to Russia by the CIA or the ONI? Do you think Oswald might have been sent to Russia to monitor another probable false defector, Robert Webster, and / or confuse the Russians about Webster (whom Oswald resembled)? http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Essay_-_Who_Was_Lee_Harvey_Oswald --Tommy

So Atta was a volunteer suicidal military operative. Or maybe he was drafted, and they told him "If you don't do this, were're gonna kill ya." LOL --Tommy

Former HSCA investigator Dan Hardway also presented at the 2014 AARC conference. He says that although George Joannides' supervisor at JMWave was William M. Kent, Joannides reported directly to Helms. Which doesn't make sense to me. I wonder if Kent knew Joannides was reporting directly to Helms. http://aarclibrary.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/dan_hardway_aarc_9_26_14.pdf In the fall of 1962, George Joannides was hand picked by Richard Helms to replace Ross Crozier as the CIA’s DRE case officer in Miami after DRE’s public opposition to the government’s policies during the October, 1962, missile crisis. Joannides reported directly to Helms. Joannides’s registered pseudonym was "Walter D. Newby". His supervisor was "Robert K. Trouchard" [William M. Kent]. --Tommy

Maybe he confused Hill's jumping off the Queen Mary / cameramen jumping out of the press car / motorcycle policeman running up the grassy knoll for "Secret Service men running up the grassy knoll with guns in their hands." --Tommy

Robert, Thanks for summarizing it like that so even I can understand. --Tommy

John Newman claims that the CIA people who plotted the assassination wanted the JFK/RFK-approved Cubela operation to go ahead but not be fulfilled so that Castro could survive and take the blame for JFK's murder. If so, that would implicate Fitzgerald or his boss, Helms, in the assassination IMHO. http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKfitzgeraldD.htm

Excellent stuff, Douglas! Here's the C-SPAN video of Newman's presentation. It includes something that's not in the transcript: a question and answer segment at the end, during which there's an interesting exchange regarding whether or not the plotters wanted to make it look like RFK had approved of the AMLASH plot against Castro. http://www.c-span.org/video/?321703-3/kennedy-assassination-cia Thanks, --Tommy John Newman says that George Joannides' boss at JMWave was William M. Kent, aka "Douglas Gupton", aka "Robert K.Trouchard", aka "Oliver H. Corbuston", and that Kent reconstituted the exiled-to-Miami DR into the DRE. He also says that one of the many pseudonyms of David Atlee Phillips was "Andrew F. Merton". Regarding Phillips, he says: "Without the knowledge that Phillips was Merton, a critical part of Phillips role on the path to the darkest operation disappears. It is the Merton history that takes us from Cubela in Cuba to Oswald in Mexico City." Newman says that the CIA officers who plotted the assassination of JFK only pretended to try to kill Castro with the Rolando Cubela (AM/LASH) plot; they wanted Castro to continue living past 11/22/63 so that they could blame Castro for killing Kennedy. Newman says, "After working for Phillips’ political and psychological branch of W/4 at headquarters, [William M.] Kent was sent to the JM/Wave station in Miami to be the chief of the JMWave psychological warfare branch. Kent’s subordinate, George Joannides, became the case officer for the DRE. [...] William [M] Kent managed the CIA’s use, through his DRE operations, of Lee Harvey Oswald." edited and bumped Edited and bumped again. Note that I took the Sforza stuff out. --Tommy

John Newman says William M. Kent's CIA pseudonyms were "Douglas Gupton", "Robert K.Trouchard", and "Oliver H. Corbuston". For more info on "Doug Gupton" see this: http://jfkfacts.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Crozier-on-Bishop-HSCA-011878.pdf --Tommy

Excellent stuff, Douglas! Here's the C-SPAN video of Newman's presentation. It includes something that's not in the transcript: a question and answer segment at the end, during which there's an interesting exchange regarding whether or not the plotters wanted to make it look like RFK had approved of the AMLASH plot against Castro. http://www.c-span.org/video/?321703-3/kennedy-assassination-cia Thanks, --Tommy John Newman says that George Joannides' boss at JMWave was William M. Kent, aka "Douglas Gupton", aka "Robert K.Trouchard", aka "Oliver H. Corbuston", and that one of the many pseudonyms of David Atlee Phillips was "Andrew F. Merton". Newman says that the CIA officers who plotted the assassination of JFK only pretended to try to kill Castro with the Rolando Cubela (AM/LASH) plot; they wanted Castro to continue living past 11/22/63 so that they could blame Castro for killing Kennedy. EDIT: Newman says, "After working for Phillips’ political and psychological branch of W/4 at headquarters, [William M.] Kent was sent to the JM/Wave station in Miami to be the chief of the JMWave psychological warfare branch. Kent’s subordinate, George Joannides, became the case officer for the DRE. The DRE which, as you already heard, ran a dark propaganda op, right after the Kennedy assassination suggesting that Oswald’s murder of President Kennedy was part of a Castro plot." Newman also says, "William [M] Kent managed the CIA’s use, through his DRE operations, of Lee Harvey Oswald." edited and bumped

Thanks, James. I defer to your knowledge and experience on this. --Tommy

Larry, Newman says that Joannides' boss was William M. Kent, with pseudos "Douglas Gupton", "Robert K. Trouchard", and "Oliver H. Corbuston". Could it be that William M. Kent was head of PP Staff at JMWAVE? https://books.google.com/books?id=CC_3AgAAQBAJ&pg=PT237&lpg=PT237&dq=%22bill+kent%22+cia&source=bl&ots=H8WO5RW-iF&sig=ZPzHEaDa6rIjvet40r2e3D0ezgQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MuWRVL-uCMmoyATw4YL4Ag&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22bill%20kent%22%20cia&f=false From Dan Hardway's 2014 ARRC presentation: "At some point between July 31, 1963, and May 15, 1964, Joannides replaced Kent as chief of covert operations at JMWAVE. While the scantily released documents on Joannides makes it impossible to determine the time, Kent/Trouchard references in JMWAVE files end after 7/25/63. By October, 1963, Kent is working at HQ WH/CA. (17) Where Kent/Trouchard was between the end of July and October 11, 1963, is not known. It is reasonable, therefore, to presume that Joannides became the director of covert operations at JMWAVE sometime between the end of July and the beginning of October, 1963. (18 )" [...] "As director of covert action, Joannides only retained direct responsibility for one operation: the student project involving “distribution of printed propaganda, production of radio programs, and the development of political action programs.”(20) footnote 20: "Interestingly enough, it was during this time frame that he [Joannides] also assumed responsibility for security reviews on JMWAVE’s covert action operations and has his fitness review conducted by David Morales, who noted “that he would be pleased to have [Joannides] work with [me] at any other Field Station that might be entrusted to [me].” A hope that would be subsequently fulfilled in Viet Nam." http://aarclibrary.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/dan_hardway_aarc_9_26_14.pdf FWIW, Hardway and Newman quote Kent's daughter as saying that the only thing her father ever said to the family about the JFK assassination was that "Oswald was a useful idiot". --Tommy

Excellent stuff, Douglas! Here's the C-SPAN video of Newman's presentation. It includes something that's not in the transcript: a question and answer segment at the end, during which there's an interesting exchange regarding whether or not the plotters wanted to make it look like RFK had approved of the AMLASH plot against Castro. http://www.c-span.org/video/?321703-3/kennedy-assassination-cia Thanks, --Tommy PS Newman presents a very convincing case that "Tony Sforza" was the CIA pseudonym of Francesco Antonio Tepedino (born 1900 in Salermo, Italy), the adoptive father of Carlos Tepedino Gonzalez (AM/Whip), and that Francesco Antonio Tepedino's other pseudonyms were "Henry J. Sloman", "Frank Stevens", and "Enrique". Newman reveals that Francesco Antonio Tepedino's CIA cryptonym was AM/Rye-1. Newman also reveals that one of the many pseudonyms of David Atlee Phillips was "Andrew F. Merton", and that George Joannides' boss was William M. Kent, aka "Douglas Gupton", aka "Robert K.Tr(o)uchard", aka "Oliver H. Cor(b)ust(o)n". Newman says that the CIA officers who plotted the assassination of JFK only pretended to try to kill Castro with the Rolando Cubela (AM/LASH) plot; they wanted Castro to continue living past 11/22/63 so that they could blame Castro for killing Kennedy. He says that JM/WAVE set up the Tepedinos, who were old friends of Rolando Cubela's, to recruit Cubela for the (unknown to them) fake assassination plot against Castro. --Tommy As to who headed up PP or KUCAGE in 1962-63, the following document might serve as a clue. It's dated June 12, 1961, and is signed by Stanley R. Zamka (David Sanchez Morales), "Chief of Station" JMWAVE. https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=37546&relPageId=2 Also see: http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/CIA/CIA_Diary_Agee.html EDIT: It's signed "Stanley R, Zamka" and the document says it's from Chief of Base, not "Chief of Station."

Excellent stuff, Douglas! Here's the C-SPAN video of Newman's presentation. http://www.c-span.org/video/?321703-3/kennedy-assassination-cia Thanks, --Tommy sun

If you aren't certain Oswald was a covert operative just knowing his basic background - then you are only fooling yourself. If it looks like a duck, walks like one, quacks like one - it's a duck. Oswald was trained by the Civil Air Patrol and USMC, and such specialties as radar, electronics, communications and the Russian language, he used PO boxes, kept an apartment away from his family, used codes, ciphers, intelligence trade craft and counter - surveillance techniques that he utilized in the aftermath of the assassination. He had intelligence associations with numerous others - deMornschildt-Paines-Phillips - all with intelligence agency connections - a domestic intelligence network that is only now being exposed - and one that is still functioning today. Oswald was also associated with a number of other covet ops - including his defection, the Houma Arms bunker raid, the Walker shooting, the FPCC, the DRE in New Orleans and the Mexico City operation, each of which tells us something about him - he was not crazy or deranged and as all of the CI investigations have concluded - was not capable of committing the assassination alone, was not a shooter and as the evidence indicates - was probably framed as the patsy as he claimed to be. Now I don't believe he was set up by Clay Shaw, David Ferrie and the New Orleans Yahoos who did the Houma Bunker raid - the Dealey Plaza Operation was a real slick job set up as a Northwinds type operation to blame Castro, a disinformation op only JFK's enemies in Washington and the Pentagon were capable of pulling off. If you believe Oswald the psycho motivated lone nut assassin you can go home - or content yourself with your beliefs, but if you recognize Oswald for what he is - a Covert Operational Personality profile - and that the assassination was a covert intel op by a domestic intel network then you can participate in the Counter-Intelligence investigation that must be conducted to expose and counter that network. This must be done for reasons of national security, the same reason the government is using to deny us the records they continue to with hold to protect that network. BK If you aren't certain Oswald was a covert operative just knowing just his basic background - then you are only fooling yourself. If it looks like one, walks like one, quacks like one - it's a duck. Oswald was trained by the Civil Air Patrol and USMC, and such specialties as radar, electronics, communications and the Russian language, he used PO boxes, kept an apartment away from his family, used codes, ciphers, intelligence trade craft and counter - surveillance techniques that he utilized in the aftermath of the asElmer Jenkins, had organized the assassination. He also named Rafael (Chi Chi) Quintero as one of the gunman. Up until that time Jenkins name hadsassination. He had intelligence associations with numerous others - deMornschildt-Paines-Phillips - all with intelligence agency connections - a domestic intelligence network that is only now being exposed - and one that is still functioning today. Oswald was also associated with a number of other covet ops - including his defection, the Houma Arms bunker raid, the Walker shooting, the FPCC, the DRE in New Orleans and the Mexico City operation, each of which tells us something about him - he was not crazy or deranged and as all of the CI investigations have concluded - was not capable of committing the assassination alone, was not a shooter and as the evidence indicates - was probably framed as the patsy as he claimed to be. Now I don't believe he was set up by Clay Shaw, David Ferrie and the New Orleans Yahoos who did the Houma Bunker raid - the Dealey Plaza Operation was a real slick job set up as a Northwinds type operation to blame Castro, a disinformation op only JFK's enemies in Washington and the Pentagon were capable of pulling off. If you believe Oswald the psycho motivated lone nut assassin you can go home - or content yourself with your beliefs, but if you recognize Oswald for what he is - a Covert Operational Personality profile - and that the assassination was a covert intel op by a domestic intel network then you can participate in the Counter-Intelligence investigation that must be conducted to expose and counter that network. This must be done for reasons of national security, the same reason the government is using to deny us the records they continue to with hold to protect that network. BK One thing that prevents me from believing that Oswald was an "Intelligence Agent" is the fact that he always seemed to be living "from hand to mouth", eating a cheese sandwich and an apple for lunch, etc., etc. Didn't he tell Dean Andrews that he was being paid $20 to hand out FPCC fliers? Hmmm... Maybe I'm wrong. After all, $20 in 1963 is worth a whopping $154.26 today. (Which means that William Cox, a loan officer at Jack Ruby's bank, saw Ruby carrying about $54,000 in today's dollars ($7000) on 11/24/63. Which he didn't deposit, by the way. But he only had about $15,426 in today's dollars ($2000) on him after killing Oswald. Question: Had he already given the balance to Sgt. Dean and other Dallas policemen in exchange for certain "favors"?) In this transcript of an excellent and recent John Newman presentation (with which Douglas Caddy started a new thread), Newman quotes the daughter of George Joannides' CIA boss, William M. Kent, as claiming that Kent, when asked about the JFK assassination, said "Oswald was a useful idiot." http://justiceforkennedy.blogspot.com/2014/11/transcript-with-documents-and-links-to.html?zx=1f29fd03d828c331 --Tommy

Yes, Larry. Definitely looking forward to that. Going back a few posts, are you "good with" the statement by another member that Nagell worked for "MID" ? Thanks, --Tommy

Larry, If FOI wasn't super-secret, it's interesting that Dick Russell would write on page 50 of TMWKTM: During the 1950s, according to Nagell, FOI was considered sacrosanct by Military Intelligence (MI). Both upon his entry into and departure from the organization, "I was required to sign papers subjecting myself to ten years' imprisonment or a ten-thousand-dollar fine, or both, if I disclosed to unauthorized persons the nature of my duties or other classified information, including the fact that an organization existed. I was instructed to never mention the phrase 'Field Operations Intelligence' or the acronym 'FOI' outside of a secure place or in the presence of unauthorized persons, even around headquarters. (19) On page 51 Russell also wrote: I also raised the subject of Field Operations Intelligence with a retired Army colonel by the the name of William Bishop during an interview in 1991. I went to see Bishop because I had heard from another source that he might possess some knowledge of Nagell's activities. But I was not prepared for Bishop's reaction when I brought up the subject of FOI. "Where the hell'd you hear that?!" he exclaimed, then added "Let me say this -- walk on eggshells on this one. There are some areas you shouldn't deal in, and this is one of them. Because there's nothing there that you could conceivably make a decent story out of, without hurting a lot of people who don't need to be hurt. And to answer your question -- no comment." (22) https://books.google.com/books?id=XJQX-4khd2QC&pg=PA50&lpg=PA50&dq=%22field+operations+intelligence%22&source=bl&ots=qp-HOJNC2t&sig=LkeLGWQMbAXYNZci4dEBlINWfXw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=B_uQVMTaL83TgwTukYGYAw&ved=0CEkQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=%22field%20operations%20intelligence%22&f=false --Tommy PS Regardless, it will be interesting to see what you come up with regarding Nagell's being assigned to a U.S. Army military intelligence detachment in Japan. PPS Let us not forget that Nagell also said that he had worked for HID, the Korean military intelligence service. https://books.google.com/books?id=XJQX-4khd2QC&pg=PA50&lpg=PA50&dq=%22field+operations+intelligence%22&source=bl&ots=qp-HOJNC2t&sig=LkeLGWQMbAXYNZci4dEBlINWfXw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=B_uQVMTaL83TgwTukYGYAw&ved=0CEkQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=hid&f=false

Larry, I think you mean Army's super-secret Field Operations Intelligence. https://books.google.com/books?id=XJQX-4khd2QC&pg=PA50&lpg=PA50&dq=nagell+foi&source=bl&ots=qp-HOJIxXA&sig=THGa_iOvQRA2cNC9EzNWZkrO6zs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TOWQVIf1O8vkggS-oYTQAw&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=nagell%20foi&f=false When you say Nagell worked for a "military intelligence detachment" in Japan, is that the same thing as saying he worked for "MID" with capital letters, as in Military Information Division? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Information_Division_%28United_States%29 Thanks, --Tommy PS Here's a Wikipedia article on the Military Intelligence Corps which explains the history and organization of U.S. Army intelligence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Intelligence_Corps_(United_States_Army)

Chris, Now we're getting somewhere! Keep up the good work. --Tommy

Jon, How much alike do you think the lookalikes looked? 1) A little. 2) A lot. 3) A whole lot. 4) Almost identical. 5) Identical. If you say 2, 3, 4, or 5, how do you explain the CIA's being able to arrange, so far in advance, for that to happen? Genetic engineering? Plastic surgery on two boys they figured would end up being short and skinny? They were fraternal or identical twins born in Hungary and separated at birth, or just brothers, born in Hungary, and separated? The CIA just got lucky? If you say 1, how do you explain the impostor's ability to fool so many people into thinking they'd encountered the man who married Marina Prusakova and was killed by Jack Ruby? Because he looked a little bit like him and identified himself as "Lee Harvey Oswald"? Thanks, --Tommy PS I think it would be more accurate to say that the Oswald who married Marina and was killed by Jack allegedly spoke Russian like a native speaker rather than was one.

You can catch two glimpses of a placard around Oswald's neck in the footage young James "Jim" Doyle took of him on 8/09/63 in New Orleans. Doyle's sister saw the placard and claimed that it said "Viva la Fidel" (which my Hispanic friends tell me is bad Spanish -- it should have said "Viva Fidel"). See my posts, above. --Tommy

Pat, Kennedy-hater Kerry Thornley, from New Orleans, somewhat resembled Oswald and was known to wear a beard. (I don't know how tall he was or how much he weighed, etc). At the time of the assassination he was renting an apartment in New Orleans from John Spencer, a friend of Clay Shaw's. After the assassination he hurriedly moved Arlington, Virginia, and for six months, according to Jim Garrison, lived in an apartment which cost more that he was making as a doorman at that upscale apartment building. Then he moved to California and became a friend of Johnny Roselli. In 1992 he apparently confessed to being involved in the assassination plot on the TV program A Current Affair. http://www.wf.net/~biles/jfk/spencer.txt --Tommy

Jon, I'm not sure if you're saying that Oswald would have learned how to speak Russian before reading or writing it, or vice versa. If the former, OK. If the latter, then all I can say is that maybe John Armstrong was right, and the Oswald who went to Russia was actually born in Hungary, where the people speak Hungarian, a non Indo-European language, and where the people used to have to learn Russian as a second language. Question: Would a person who spoke Russian with a Hungarian dialect sound like they were from the Baltics (Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia) to a Russian like Marina, who allegedly thought Oswald was from there? --Tommy