Thomas Graves

Everyone knows that you are not interested in collaboration so cut the crapola. As another Michael has observed, you are usually one of the ones who is likely to call "fire" in a crowded theater or to kick a man when he is down. http://educationforu...330#entry262341 This thread, that you created and put Thomas's name on is but another example of your abuse of power. Thomas is not on moderation, just like I am not on moderation. But Scully has his own special set of rules. No other moderator does what you do. This thread should not even exist. You created it for your own purpose. It has nothing to do with the JFK assassination. Michael, --Tommy

According to this great article by David Boylan, "Some of the people that [John Lawrence Howard] claimed to know and who's [sic] names appeared in his address book were:" Pedro Diaz Lanz Frank Fiorini [sturgis] Frank Fernandez of Dallas Lester Logue Clint Wheat William Gale Larry Laborde Enrique Molina Rivera -- "who Hemming and Howard claimed was a Castro agent" Alexander Rorke Richard Butler Rolando Masferrer Rojas (and Masferrer's brother Kiki) Robert K. Brown Dr. Grennan [Dr. Stanley Drennan] Eddie Field -- "right winger and friend of John Lechner" Roy Hargraves Nico Crespi Dr. Robert Morris Tony Varona Renee Valdez Edgar Eugene Bradley Question: Does anyone know if this address book is viewable online? If not, where can it be found? Thanks, --Tommy

Tom, if you have something to say, why don't you come right out and say it? My command of the material is not the issue -- nor is my attitude. Nor do I have "everything figured out." But I do call 'em like I see 'em -- whenever I see irrelevant information -- like birth certificates and death certificates of the children of people who talked to the FBI about Sylvia Odio -- I will call it irrelevant unless somebody can use clear sentences to explain the relevance. Quantity of information may be important, but quality of information is more important. Lucille Bass Connell had time on her hands -- what is the problem with that? Don't you know any right-wing housewives with time on their hands? Such people are a cliche in the South. Is it really relevant that Lucille Bass Connell's husband was a pall bearer at the 1964 funeral of the founder of Dallas Catholic Relief? Clearly -- Lucille Bass was an active volunteer for that Charity, and clearly she wanted to be a matron for her city -- so she volunteered her husband. It happens every day. But if you think there is something suspicious about it, please explain why. You say that "this all smacks of a private witness protection program," but you don't provide your reasoning. Why not? Is it really so astounding that a northeast appliance business owner of the Jewish faith ended his life with an obituary naming the children of C. Lee Connell of Dallas as his children? Surely you have heard of divorce, re-marriage and adoption. Surely you're heard about people bickering about renaming their children after a divorce. You suggested that it is important to "attempt to run down the background details," so, have you done that? If so, do you have some actual connection to share? If so, why not just spell it out? As for my opinions, I try to stay close to the topic of Leonardo, Angel, Sylvia Odio, Lee Harvey Oswald and the personnel in question inside the thread upon which I comment. I am surprised to have to respond to insults about being a "turn off" simply because I have an opinion and I express it. If you disagree, Tom, feel free to explain your reasoning. But posting insults along with tons of material that are largely irrelevant to the specific focus of the thread at hand seems to me to be counter-productive. Regards, --Paul Trejo Paul, --Tommy

Bernie, Actually, Bernie, I think that most of the moderators here do a very good job. --Tommy

It would be nice to know if there was a listing for Nico Crespi, or any Crespi for that matter, in Dallas in 1962-1963. --Tommy edited and bumped

It would be nice to know if there was a listing for Nico Crespi, or any Crespi for that matter, in Dallas in 1962-1963. --Tommy

Well, Nico Crespi, who was evidently an anti-Castro acquaintance or colleague of Loran Hall's, knew that Oswald was making speeches in Dallas, and, suspecting LHO of being a double agent (i.e. pro Castro), was on his way downtown to "heckle" him one day in early October, 1963. --Tommy Tommy [...], [...] Lee Harvey Oswald in this scenario was addressing Cuban Exiles like Sylvia Odio who hated Castro fiercely. Therefore, the speech that Oswald delivered in Dallas to the Cuban Exiles was anti-Castro. If that isn't obvious please tell me why. [...] Best regards, --Paul Trejo Paul, Well obviously, if LHO was making speeches to small groups of (presumably) anti-Castro Cuban exiles in Dallas, it only makes sense that he was making anti-Castro speeches to them. Otherwise, those "hot blooded" Cuban exiles would have physically attacked him, IMHO, and we would know all about that from press reports, police reports, FBI reports, etc. So, given the fact that LHO was most likely making anti-Castro speeches, Nico Crespi's telling Hall that he was going downtown to "heckle" LHO suggests to me that Crespi thought that Oswald was only pretending to be anti-Castro. Instead of thinking that LHO was really pro-Castro, maybe he thought that LHO was trying to penetrate some anti-Castro groups for a governmental agency or two... --Tommy

Well, Nico Crespi, who was evidently an anti-Castro acquaintance or colleague of Loran Hall's, knew that Oswald was making speeches in Dallas, and, suspecting LHO of being a double agent (i.e. pro Castro), was on his way downtown to "heckle" him one day in early October, 1963. --Tommy . Edit: Apparently, Colonel L. Robert Castorr's original last name was Castorri. I say this based on the fact that the following obituary (from 2005) says that when he died, L. Robert Castorr was survived by two brothers, Albert (R.) Castorri and Larry Castle, and that he was preceded in death by another brother, Arthur Castorri. http://www.legacy.co...060#fbLoggedOut FWIW, Albert R. Castorri had been a U.S. Army master sergeant stationed in Brasil in 1951. http://fl.findacase....40308.FL.htm/qx --Tommy edited significantly and bumped edit #2: Larry Castle's obituary http://www.fredhunters.com/obituary/94968/Larry-Castle/

Well, Nico Crespi, who was evidently an anti-Castro acquaintance or colleague of Loran Hall's, knew that Oswald was making speeches in Dallas, and, suspecting LHO of being a double agent (i.e. pro Castro), was on his way downtown to "heckle" him one day in early October, 1963. --Tommy . Edit: Apparently, Colonel L. Robert Castorr's original last name was Castorri. I say this based on the fact that the following obituary (from 2005) says that when he died, L. Robert Castorr was survived by two brothers, Albert (R.) Castorri and Larry Castle, and that he was preceded in death by another brother, Arthur Castorri. http://www.legacy.co...060#fbLoggedOut FWIW, Albert R. Castorri had been a U.S. Army master sergeant stationed in Brasil in 1951. http://fl.findacase....40308.FL.htm/qx --Tommy

Tommy, I have no information about Nico Crespi, but I'm accumulating information about Loran Hall. He was a close associate of Gerry Patrick Hemming -- they fought in battles together along with Larry Howard. I want to emphasize that at one point the late Gerry Patrick Hemming (a long-time member of this list) was like Harry Dean in that he personally knew Fidel Castro and Che Guevarra in 1959, and personally fought alongside of them to defeat the Batista regime. Other people that helped Castro in 1959 included Frank Sturgis, David Ferrie, Loran Hall and Larry Howard. After Castro won his revolution and then showed his true colors -- Red on Red -- he also started subjecting his former USA supporters to firing squads. That is why Gerry Patrick Hemming quit Castro. That is why Harry Dean quit Castro. That is why Loran Hall and Larry Howard and Frank Sturgis and David Ferrie and many others quit Castro. In the late 1950's, it was hip and cool to support Fidel Castro. Ed Sullivan, famous TV host, also supported Fidel Castro. So did TV host Jack Parr. Everything changed when Castro showed his Communist colors. Most of the USA supporters not only quit Castro, they also began attacking Castro, and spying against him for the USA intelligence community. I mention this because many of the former pro-Castro supporters from the USA suddenly turned against Castro in the early 1960's, and began conducting raids on Cuba -- guerrila raids of nighttime bombing of small villages, or burning sugar crops. This is where Gerry Patrick Hemming, Loran Hall and Larry Howard become relevant. This is what they did, first with INTERPEN, run successfully by Hemming, and then Loran Hall and a few of Hemming's guys tried to split off and form their own band of guerrilla warriors, collecting money from Castro-haters like Sylvia Odio (whose parents languished in a Castro jail cell in Cuba.) We should notice that Lee Harvey Oswald also fits a similar profile. He was at one point sympathetic to Castro -- like most young hipsters in 1959. But he snapped out of it when Castro began shooting Americans -- and evidently LHO became a double agent. We find him associating mainly with Cuban Exiles in New Orleans. That is very important. Yet we also find LHO -- according to Sylvia Odio -- making speeches in Dallas to Cuban Exiles. That is extremely interesting -- and the Warren Commission heard about this one week after the JFK assassination -- and decided to ignore this trail. So -- to hazard an answer to your question, Tommy, Loran Hall was known to Lee Harvey Oswald through -- at the very least -- the Cuban Exile community, who shared paramilitary training grounds and equipment with the Minutemen, and who were sometimes led by USA paramilitary operatives like ex-General Edwin Walker and LHO himself. Therefore, it is entirely plausible that Nico Crespi was on his way to hear LHO speak -- and to make a donation. Best regards, --Paul Trejo Paul, Loran Hall was quoted as saying that Nico Crespi told him on a Dallas sidewalk that he was on his way downtown to heckle Oswald. --Tommy

Tommy, Thanks for the discussion. I'll respond to two of your points, and then I'll pose some further questions for you. (1) You note that Odio gave her testimony to the WC on 22 July 1964, and that Loran Hall was interviewed by the FBI seven weeks later on 16-20 September 1964. Clear that is not "immediate" but that is tangental to my point -- why did they choose Loran Hall and Larry Howard, since Odio could make no identification aside from their alleged "war names"? (2) You note that their war names, "Leopoldo" and "Angelo" are "somewhat similar phonetically" to "Lorenzo" and "Alonzo," which were Hall and Howard's war names, but that still doesn't make a convincing link. These are only first names. The FBI had a ton of first names -- without last names would they even bother? I don't see the feasibility there. OK, now I'll bring up a point that is rarely discussed, namely, the FBI's Warren Commission Exhibit #3108, which is dated only 7 days after the JFK assassination (11/29/1963). In this FBI report, Sylvia Odio's name is mentioned along with Lee Harvey Oswald and General Edwin Walker. Are you familiar with this, Tommy? Here is an excerpt: ----------------------- BEGIN EXCERPT OF FBI COMMISSION EXHIBIT No. 3108 ------------------------------------ Mrs. C. L. CONNELL, 6949 Lake Shore Drive, Dallas, Texas, advised she has been a voluntary assistant to the Catholic Cuban Relief Committee of Dallas, Texas, for approximately the past year. She stated one of her Cuban refugee acquaintances, SYLVIA ODIO, 1616-A West Davis Street, Dallas, advised her telephonically on November 28, 1963, that she knew LEE HARVEY OSWALD, and that he had made some talks to small groups of Cuban refugees in Dallas in the past. ODIO stated she personally considered OSWALD brilliant and clever, and that he had captivated the groups to whom he spoke. ODIO further reported to CONNELL during this conversation that a call had been made in recent months by a Cuban associate of hers to an unknown source in New Orleans, Louisiana, requesting information on LEE HARVEY OSWALD. ODIO volunteered that information was in turn received from the New Orleans source to the effect that OSWALD was considered by that source in New Orleans to be a "double agent". The source stated OSWALD was probably trying to infiltrate the Dallas Cuban refugee group, and that he should not be trusted <snip> CONNELL voiced the opinion that General EDWIN A. WALKER and Colonel (FNU) CASTER, a close acquaintance of WALKER, have been trying to arouse the feeling of the Cuban refugees, in Dallas, against the KENNEDY administration. She based this statement upon information furnished her by various Cubans to the effect that WALKER and CASTER made speeches before Cuban groups in recent months in the Dallas area in opposition to the KENNEDY administration policies. --------------------------- END EXCERPT ------------------------------------------------ I find this information riveting. Here's my first take on it: (1) Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) was seen giving speeches in Dallas to small groups of (anti-Castro) Cuban Exiles in Dallas prior to the JFK assassination. (2) Sylvia Odio witnessed at least one of these speeches, and she was impressed by LHO, and she said that other Cuban Exiles were also "captivated".. (3) Sylvia Odio said a Cuban friend of hers called "somebody" in New Orleans requesting further information about LHO. (4) "Somebody" in New Orleans reported to her friend that LHO was considered a "double agent" and that the Cuban Exile group should not trust him. (5) Ex-General Edwin A. Walker and his close associate, Colonel "Caster" (first name unknown) had also been making speeches in Dallas among the (anti-Castro) Cuban Exiles in Dallas, attacking the JFK Administration before the JFK assassination. Here is evidence from the FBI that should have been seized upon in 1963. But it wasn't. Why? I think it was because ex-General Walker's name was involved, and the FBI had orders to tip-toe around this outspoken enemy of JFK. But there are other implications -- Sylvia Odio knew LHO *before* she saw him at her house on or about Wed25Sep63, and that is precisely why she could make a positive identification of him. Also, LHO was on the right-wing, making speeches to Cuban Exiles on the right in Dallas. This harks back to his visit to Carlos Bringuier in New Orleans, offering to train Cubans to fight Castro at a local training camp (probably Lake Pontchartrain). Ex-General Walker was also making speeches to anti-Castro Cubans in Dallas. How much interaction did Walker have with anti-Castro Cubans? After Walker was acquited by a Grand Jury in Mississippi in January, 1963 for his role in the bloody riots at Ole Miss University on 30 September 1962, Walker roared that he would now seek justice from the JFK administration "through the Cuban community." Did he start his interaction with Cuban Exiles as early as January, 1963? Is it possible Walker and LHO met each other during some of these Cuban Exile meetings in Dallas? Best regards, --Paul Trejo Paul, So, when Loran Hall ran into the mysterious Nico Crespi on a Dallas sidewalk in early October of 1963, was Crespi on his way downtown to "heckle" Oswald for being a suspected double agent? --Tommy

I'm going to say no. In Mary Ferrell's database, she identifies them as two different people, and in A Farewell to Justice, Joan Mellen says that Nico Crespi was a Ford Motor salesman. Antonio Crespi was an employee of the Republic Transcom Co. Steve Thomas I think you are right, Steve. As to the JURE connection and hence the Odio visit, it may be worth noting here that a man by the name of Jorge Volsky (Cuban citizen but of Polish origin) was solidly connected into the Cuban community both in Miami and Dallas via his position with the USIA office in Miami. He also had involvement with propaganda activities for the JURE. Volsky also worked closely with Rogelio Cisneros. The curious part is that Volsky was also in communication with JM/WAVE from February of 1963 to November of 1963. His case officer was a man by the name of Stanley Zamka. Stanley Zamka was an alias for David Morales. (emphasis added by T. Graves) James I stumbled upon this 2008 newspaper article on George (Jorge) Volsky while trying to do some so-called research on Nico Crespi today. (Volsky's CIA cryptonym was AMTRUNK-1) http://www.miaminewt...-david-brown/2/ Edit: Here's a picture of him 5 years ago at age 87, from the same newspaper: http://blogs.miamine..._the_gables.php And here's an interesting CIA document about AMTRUNK: http://www.maryferre...963&relPageId=1 --Tommy

David, Thanks. I'd forgotten that. What would you consider "a good picture of Tony Cuesta?" One that we can judge his height in? --Tommy

David, Do you think Cuesta was at Silvia Odio's apartment in late September of 1963? --Tommy http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/belligerence/cuesta.gif

Well, Tommy, first of all, yes, I've read TMWKTM, and I've studied it, and my copy is marked up. Secondly, I concur that spies are trained to notice such facts -- but my main point was that Sylvia Odio could not be expected to remember such points under the circumstances. But what does it mean that Nagell and Bishop grasped the physical dimensions of Lawrence Howard when the question is identifying the visitors who came to Odio's house on Wednesday 25 September 1963? No matter how accurate Nagell and Bishop might be in their recollections, the simple fact is that they themselves were not present at Sylvio Odio's doorstep on that day. So, in order to make any useful match, we must also guarantee that Sylvia Odio had the same spy training as Nagell and Bishop, so that she was also trained to notice such features. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case. Without a trained, educated description of the physical characteristics of her visitors from Sylvia Odio, what good is the data from Nagell and Bishop? That was my point. Odio could not (or would not trust the WC to protect her if she did) identify Loran Hall and Lawrence Howard as the men at her door that day. Her physical descriptions, given from memory, are very unclear. If there was FBI involvement in a cover-up of Lee Harvey Oswald's activities in late September 1963, then we would expect the FBI to add pressure to Sylvia Odio's tortured life, and not offer her protection, comfort or encouragement. Therefore, seeking to identify those visitors without a positive identification of two of the three, or without an accurate match of her physical description with the physical description offered by experts -- we seem to be at an impasse. However -- it only adds fuel to my unanswered question -- since Odio admitted she could not identify Leopoldo or Angel (except by these vague "war names") why in the world would the FBI immediately pick up Loran Hall for questioning? Any ideas? Best regards, --Paul Trejo Paul, Well, Silvia Odio gave her testimony to the Warren Commission on July 22, 1964. Loran Hall was first interviewed by the FBI almost two months later on September 16, 1964 (and then re-interviewed on September 20, 1964). So, in my humble opinion, Loran Hall was not picked up for questioning "immediately" after Odio gave her testimony. As you know, Silvia told the WC that the two men who were at her apartment (with Oswald) called themselves "Leopoldo" (definitely) and "Angelo" (or something like that). These names are somewhat similar phonetically to Hall's and Howard's "war names" of "Lorenzo" and "Alonzo," respectively. Therefore, it's possible that the "war names" mentioned by Silvia reminded someone (who was privy to her testimony) of Hall's and Howard's "war names," and that that person, for whatever reason, pointed the FBI in the direction of Hall and Howard. The only reason I'm "arguing" with you (more as a "devil's advocate" than anything else) is because I find it curious that the FBI report says that Hall described himself as having been 5'11 1/2" and 200 pounds in September of 1963, and that he described Larry Howard as being 5'11" and 235 "fat" pounds. I'm perplexed by the fact that Silvia testified that "Leopoldo" was "thin," if indeed 200-pound Hall was "Leopoldo," and I'm equally perplexed that she testified that "Angelo" (or something like that) was only 5'7" and "stocky," if indeed "Angelo" really was big, "fat" Larry Howard. Even ordinary people who don't work in carnivals can appreciate the difference between 5'7" and "stocky" and 5'11" and "fat," and, no, I don't think these discrepencies are due to Silvia's so-called language problems. Also, both Hall and Howard told the FBI that they had had full beards when they were in Dallas in September of 1963, another thing that, if true, Silvia seems to have not noticed... Of course I realize that I've probably completely misinterpreted what you wrote and/or that I've been "researching" the wrong documents and/or that I've misquoted the documents, so I appologize in advance... http://www.maryferre...5&relPageId=152 --Tommy P.S. I wonder if Hall or Howard were known to (occasionally?) wear prescription glasses back then? Also, it's interesting that Hall said that he towed the trailer from Los Angeles to Dallas with his blue-and-white 1956 Oldsmobile. I do wonder if it was a station wagon. Lee Bowers said one of the three "mysto" cars that came into his area a short time before the assassination was a blue-and-white 1959 Oldsmobile station wagon with out-of-state plates.... Edit: I've been thinking about it some more (oh, no!), and I suppose it's possible that Hall, Howard, and Oswald were all three at Silva's apartment, but, due to her strong sense of self-preservation, Silvia was willing to identify only Oswald for the authorities. In this scenario, she may very well have (intentionally) given misleading descriptions of Hall and Howard to the WC... --Tommy (edited and bumped; sorry about the double post)

Well, Tommy, first of all, yes, I've read TMWKTM, and I've studied it, and my copy is marked up. Secondly, I concur that spies are trained to notice such facts -- but my main point was that Sylvia Odio could not be expected to remember such points under the circumstances. But what does it mean that Nagell and Bishop grasped the physical dimensions of Lawrence Howard when the question is identifying the visitors who came to Odio's house on Wednesday 25 September 1963? No matter how accurate Nagell and Bishop might be in their recollections, the simple fact is that they themselves were not present at Sylvio Odio's doorstep on that day. So, in order to make any useful match, we must also guarantee that Sylvia Odio had the same spy training as Nagell and Bishop, so that she was also trained to notice such features. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case. Without a trained, educated description of the physical characteristics of her visitors from Sylvia Odio, what good is the data from Nagell and Bishop? That was my point. Odio could not (or would not trust the WC to protect her if she did) identify Loran Hall and Lawrence Howard as the men at her door that day. Her physical descriptions, given from memory, are very unclear. If there was FBI involvement in a cover-up of Lee Harvey Oswald's activities in late September 1963, then we would expect the FBI to add pressure to Sylvia Odio's tortured life, and not offer her protection, comfort or encouragement. Therefore, seeking to identify those visitors without a positive identification of two of the three, or without an accurate match of her physical description with the physical description offered by experts -- we seem to be at an impasse. However -- it only adds fuel to my unanswered question -- since Odio admitted she could not identify Leopoldo or Angel (except by these vague "war names") why in the world would the FBI immediately pick up Loran Hall for questioning? Any ideas? Best regards, --Paul Trejo Paul, Well, Silvia Odio gave her testimony to the Warren Commission on July 22, 1964. Loran Hall was first interviewed by the FBI almost two months later on September 16, 1964 (and then re-interviewed on September 20, 1964). So, in my humble opinion, Loran Hall was not picked up for questioning "immediately" after Odio gave her testimony. As you know, Silvia told the WC that the two men who were at her apartment (with Oswald) called themselves "Leopoldo" (definitely) and "Angelo" (or something like that). These names are somewhat similar phonetically to Hall's and Howard's "war names" of "Lorenzo" and "Alonzo," respectively. Therefore, it's possible that the "war names" mentioned by Silvia reminded someone (who was privy to her testimony) of Hall's and Howard's "war names," and that that person, for whatever reason, pointed the FBI in the direction of Hall and Howard. The only reason I'm "arguing" with you (more as a "devil's advocate" than anything else) is because I find it curious that the FBI report says that Hall described himself as having been 5'11 1/2" and 200 pounds in September of 1963, and that he described Larry Howard as being 5'11" and 235 "fat" pounds. I'm perplexed by the fact that Silvia testified that "Leopoldo" was "thin," if indeed 200-pound Hall was "Leopoldo," and I'm equally perplexed that she testified that "Angelo" (or something like that) was only 5'7" and "stocky," if indeed "Angelo" really was big, "fat" Larry Howard. Even ordinary people who don't work in carnivals can appreciate the difference between 5'7" and "stocky" and 5'11" and "fat," and, no, I don't think these discrepencies are due to Silvia's so-called language problems. Also, both Hall and Howard told the FBI that they had had full beards when they were in Dallas in September of 1963, another thing that, if true, Silvia seems to have not noticed... Of course I realize that I've probably completely misinterpreted what you wrote and/or that I've been "researching" the wrong documents and/or that I've misquoted the documents, so I appologize in advance... http://www.maryferre...5&relPageId=152 --Tommy P.S. I wonder if Hall or Howard were known to (occasionally?) wear prescription glasses back then? Also, it's interesting that Hall said that he towed the trailer from Los Angeles to Dallas with his blue-and-white 1956 Oldsmobile. I do wonder if it was a station wagon. Lee Bowers said one of the three "mysto" cars that came into his area a short time before the assassination was a blue-and-white 1959 Oldsmobile station wagon with out-of-state plates.... Edit: I've been thinking about it some more (oh, no!), and I suppose it's possible that Hall, Howard, and Oswald were all three at Silva's apartment, but, due to her sense of self-preservation, Oswald was the only one she recognized for the authorities. In this scenario, she may have intentionally given misleading descriptions of Hall and Howard to the WC... --Tommy

Well, Tommy, first of all, yes, I've read TMWKTM, and I've studied it, and my copy is marked up. Secondly, I concur that spies are trained to notice such facts -- but my main point was that Sylvia Odio could not be expected to remember such points under the circumstances. But what does it mean that Nagell and Bishop grasped the physical dimensions of Lawrence Howard when the question is identifying the visitors who came to Odio's house on Wednesday 25 September 1963? No matter how accurate Nagell and Bishop might be in their recollections, the simple fact is that they themselves were not present at Sylvio Odio's doorstep on that day. So, in order to make any useful match, we must also guarantee that Sylvia Odio had the same spy training as Nagell and Bishop, so that she was also trained to notice such features. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the case. Without a trained, educated description of the physical characteristics of her visitors from Sylvia Odio, what good is the data from Nagell and Bishop? That was my point. Odio could not (or would not trust the WC to protect her if she did) identify Loran Hall and Lawrence Howard as the men at her door that day. Her physical descriptions, given from memory, are very unclear. If there was FBI involvement in a cover-up of Lee Harvey Oswald's activities in late September 1963, then we would expect the FBI to add pressure to Sylvia Odio's tortured life, and not offer her protection, comfort or encouragement. Therefore, seeking to identify those visitors without a positive identification of two of the three, or without an accurate match of her physical description with the physical description offered by experts -- we seem to be at an impasse. However -- it only adds fuel to my unanswered question -- since Odio admitted she could not identify Leopoldo or Angel (except by these vague "war names") why in the world would the FBI immediately pick up Loran Hall for questioning? Any ideas? Best regards, --Paul Trejo Paul, Well, Silvia Odio gave her testimony to the Warren Commission on July 22, 1964. Loran Hall was first interviewed by the FBI almost two months later on September 16, 1964 (and then re-interviewed on September 20, 1964). So, in my humble opinion, Loran Hall was not picked up for questioning "immediately" after Odio gave her testimony. As you know, Silvia told the WC that the two men who were at her apartment (with Oswald) called themselves "Leopoldo" (definitely) and "Angelo" (or something like that). These names are somewhat similar phonetically to Hall's and Howard's "war names" of "Lorenzo" and "Alonzo," respectively. Therefore, it's possible that the "war names" mentioned by Silvia reminded someone (who was privy to her testimony) of Hall's and Howard's "war names," and that that person, for whatever reason, pointed the FBI in the direction of Hall and Howard. The only reason I'm "arguing" with you (more as a "devil's advocate" than anything else) is because I find it curious that the FBI report says that Hall described himself as having been 5'11 1/2" and 200 pounds in September of 1963, and that he described Larry Howard as being 5'11" and 235 "fat" pounds. I'm perplexed by the fact that Silvia testified that "Leopoldo" was "thin," if indeed 200-pound Hall was "Leopoldo," and I'm equally perplexed that she testified that "Angelo" (or something like that) was only 5'7" and "stocky," if indeed "Angelo" really was big, "fat" Larry Howard. Even ordinary people who don't work in carnivals can appreciate the difference between 5'7" and "stocky" and 5'11" and "fat," and, no, I don't think these discrepencies are due to Silvia's so-called language problems. Also, both Hall and Howard told the FBI that they had had full beards when they were in Dallas in September of 1963, another thing that, if true, Silvia seems to have not noticed... Of course I realize that I've probably completely misinterpreted what you wrote and/or that I've been "researching" the wrong documents and/or that I've misquoted the documents, so I appologize in advance... http://www.maryferre...5&relPageId=152 --Tommy P.S. I wonder if Hall or Howard were known to (occasionally?) wear prescription glasses back then? Also, it's interesting that Hall said that he towed the trailer from Los Angeles to Dallas with his blue-and-white 1956 Oldsmobile. I do wonder if it was a station wagon. Lee Bowers said one of the three "mysto" cars that came into his area a short time before the assassination was a blue-and-white 1959 Oldsmobile station wagon with out-of-state plates.... Edit: I've been thinking about it some more (oh, no!), and I suppose it's possible that Hall, Howard, and Oswald were all three at Silva's apartment, but, due to her sense of self-preservation, Oswald was the only one she recognized for the authorities. In this scenario, she may have intentionally given misleading descriptions of Hall and Howard to the WC... --Tommy

Tommy, I'd like to firmly identify the men who visited Sylvia Odio on Wednesday 25 September 1963, but the information remains inconsistent. I would add that only a few people can accurately guess the height-weight-age of a stranger on sight. (A person who has a talent for guessing height-weight-age could work for a carnival side-show, because it is such an oddity.) Most of us can only offer ballpark guesses. The information is useful only to identify gross mismatches -- for example, one person might say Mr. X was extremely skinny, and another person says that Mr. X was obese -- clearly we have a mismatch. Or, one person says Ms. X is Asian, and another person says Ms. X is British -- clearly we have a mismatch. Or, one person says Ms. X was "very tall" while another person says Ms. X was "very short". That's a clear mismatch. But the attempt to make identifications based on guessing the height-weight-age of a stranger on sight, and trying to scale by inches and ten-pound weights -- that seems fruitless to me. A police record of the height-weight-age of Angel, compared with a medical record of Angel -- now that makes scientific sense. But random guesses by ordinary people based on the few glances -- that's simply not scientific evidence in any case. It also neglects my principal question -- when Sylvia Odio told the Warren Commission about that September 1963 visit by Leopoldo, Angel and Leon in December 1963, she told them she could not identify anybody except Lee Harvey Oswald in that trio. Yet the FBI immediately picked up Loran Hall for questioning. Why in the world was that? Best regards, --Paul Trejo Well Gosh, Paul-- "Random guesses by ordinary people" ? I don't think Richard Case Nagell and Colonel William C. Bishop were just "ordinary people" making "random guesses" about the physical characteristics of the men they both knew as "Leopoldo" and "Angel". Nagell and Col. Bishop were both highly-trained intelligence operatives who had been chosen/accepted for that kind of work in the first place for, one would assume, their ability to observe and remember such things. --Tommy P.S. Have you read The Man Who Knew Too Much?

OK, Tommy, I'd be pleased to look up those pages that you're referring to by Dick Russell in his, TMWKTM (2003). [...] Best regards, --Paul Trejo <edit typos> Paul, Yes, it is interesting that 5'6" Silvia/Sylvia Odio told the Warren Commision that "Angel" was shorter than Oswald and was only about 5'7". Unfortunately, this contradicts the recollections of "Angel" of both Richard Case Nagell and Colonel William C. Bishop: From: The Man Who Knew Too Much, "Second Carroll & Graf trade paperback edition 2003" (588 pages) From pages 183-184: And who was the unidentified man - "said to have been an ex-CIA employee" - whom Nagell observed talking with Artime and Masferrer that January 1963 day in Miami? Based on other material supplied me by Nagell, I believe it was a Cuban exile who used the "war name" of "Angel" (pronounced On-hel). He, along with a partner, would later come into direct contact with Lee Harvey Oswald. In a ten-page outline of "highlights" I sent Nagell in 1976, returned to me with his corrections, here is what Nagell delineated: "The other two figures directly involved were known to Oswald by the given names 'Angel' and 'Leopoldo,' and were said to be former CIA employees of Cuban extraction, born and raised in Cuba. Both were connected with a violence-prone faction of a CIA-financed group operating in Mexico City and elsewhere. In 1962, both had participated in a bomb-throwing incident directed against an employee of Mexico's Cuban Embassy. Both were said to be well known to Mexican and Cuban authorities, and of course to the CIA. In Mexico, one name for the group may have been 'Alpha 66.' [...] Nagell also outlined his observations of "Angel" in a letter to Fensterwald, as follows: "Angel was in Miami during the latter part of January 1963. He may have stayed at the Holiday Inn located on Biscayne Boulevard [where Nagell was also residing]. On several occasions he visited a well-lighted Cuban restaurant that was located on Flagler Street. He also visited a small photo shop that was located on a street perpendicular to the long axis of Flagler; this shop had some kind of connection with the MRP" [the exile group Movimiento Revolucionario del Pueblo]. 25 Nagell added in another letter that Angel also used the pseudonym or "Rangel" or "Wrangel" as a surname on at least one occasion. 26 According to a description furnished by Nagell in 1968 for the Garrison investigation, the exile was twenty-eight to thirty years of age. He stood about five feet, eleven inches or six feet tall and weighed a stocky 180 pounds. He had black hair and hazel eyes. 27 When I asked Nagell on two occasions whether he knew Angel or his partner's real names, the first time he would say only, "I might have suspected a lot of things." The next time he added: "I know the names that were supposed to be real. I knew names. And their backgrounds." 28 [emphasis added] ........ And, from page 335: I asked (Colonel William C.) Bishop whether Angel and Leopoldo may have operated off and on out of Mexico City. "I can tell you that much," he replied. When I asked for a physical description of Angel, Bishop glowered at me: "You're trying to come in the back door is what you're trying to do." Then he offered a similar description for Angel as Nagell had provided -- "five-ten, 160-165 weight, swarthy complexion -- before cutting himself off, saying, "I think I'd better stop at that." [emphasis added] --Tommy P.S. Sorry-- I was dead wrong in my earlier post when I said that RCN had told Dick Russell that "Angel" was 5'11" - 6'0" when in fact this is what, according to Russell, Nagell had told the Garrison Investigation. My bad. I appologize (again)......

Tommy, I believe that you may be recollecting descriptions given by Sylvia Odio herself to the Warren Commission in 1964. I would caution readers, however, to grant Sylvia Odio some ESL leeway. Since English is her second language, her grammar must be weighted differently, IMHO. She is being honest, but her command of English differs from a native speaker. Let's review her testimony before the Warren Commission with that in mind and see where that leads us. Best regards, --Paul Trejo Paul, Actually, I was referring to what Richard Russell said Colonel William C. Bishop and Richard Case Nagell told him about "Angel", separately and independently of each other, as recounted in Russell's book, The Man Who Knew Too Much. I don't have the book in front of me at the moment at this library computer, but I will be happy to post the page numbers later so you can verify it if you so desire. (In case you're wondering, I've got the more recent edition, in "paperback" or whatever it's called.) --Tommy

"The page could not be found" --Tommy P.S. Do you test the links you put in your posts after you've posted them? Just an idea.

B.A., Well, I think the theory is that the bad guys needed LHO's prints so they could transfer them to the rifle. (Is that what you're asking about?) --Tommy

Thanks for the feedback, Tommy. Regarding the relative height of people, I believe that taller people have an easier time estimating the height of other people. I think Sylvia Odio might have meant that Hall was tall for a Cuban. Yet Harry Dean also thought that Hall was at least 6 feet tall; yet again, Harry Dean isn't particularly tall. Please recollect and share your source that says Hall was 5'10", Tommy. Also, height can be socially relative. For example, one FORUM member is certain that the "great" Frank Sturgis was "much taller" than 6 feet, yet photos of Sturgis next to other men suggest he was shorter than 6 feet. Now, when Sylvia said that "Leopoldo" was "thin," this could mean many things. Descriptions of Loran Hall suggest that he was very muscular with hefty arms and shoulders and a trim waist with six-pack abs. If this was the case, then a Latina might consider that to be "thin," meaning, "thin around the waist." In America, however, we tend to say a person is "thin" when that person is thin from head to toe. I'm not aware of a photo showing Hall lecturing Howard in the presence of Seymour. Please recollect and share that source if you can. As for Sylvia repeating that "Leopoldo" had an unusual forehead or hairline, we should examine a few more photographs. Here are some photographs of Loran Hall's face that just might be new to you. They are from a 1975 TATTLER special report that concentrates on Loran Hall, ex-General Walker, Interpen and Harry Dean: http://www.pet880.co...ren_Hall_02.JPG http://www.pet880.co...ren_Hall_06.JPG Both of those photos show Loran Hall with a "beard." Now, regarding "Angel" and Sylvia Odio's description of his face that looked seriously weathered, this is typically a difference between a swarthy Mexican complexion and a more Spanish-influenced Cuban complexion. I believe it does fit Larry Howard. Here are three pictures of Larry Howard from that same 1975 TATTLER article: http://www.pet880.co...ren_Hall_07.JPG http://www.pet880.co...ren_Hall_09.JPG http://www.pet880.co...ren_Hall_11.JPG I think you can see why both Sylvia and Annie Odio described the "Angel" character as "probably a Mexican". They were mostly correct, since Larry Howard was a half-breed with clear Mexican features, as his photographs show. As for Oswald's Mexico trip, the disinformation that surrounds it was blessed by those who would keep Lee Harvey Oswald a mystery to the American people. I think Harry Dean's information clarifies and simplifies the entire situation. Coupled with clues from Dick Russell, I think the contours of the trip are pretty much explained. Hall and Howard were to ensure that Oswald had a meeting with Guy Gabaldon in Mexico. Thus they would drive him all the way there. Somebody else was on that bus, and Gaudet's story was deliberately sketchy. Also, thanks for correcting my typo about Larry Howard (not Hall). Also, yes, your synopsis of my opinion is correct. Also, I believe that Loran Hall could talk straight when he wanted to, but he was terrified of the consequences of the truth on a daily basis. That National Enquirer article that I shared yesterday explains why. His attitude grew even worse over time. Finally -- to read most of that TATTLER issue, just change the final digit of that URL above to a figure between "01" to "13". Best regards, --Paul Trejo <edit typos> Paul, I just spent the better part of an hour replying to you and lost it all when I clicked on "clear selection" after getting the Education Forum "error message" informing me that the photo (from Spartacus Educational's website's page on William Seymour) I had tried to upload to this thread was "too large". So I'm a bit frustrated now and I'm gonna keep this "short". I WAS WRONG ABOUT LORAN HALL'S BEING 5'10", 160-165 LBS. I GOT HIM CONFUSED WITH "ANGEL" (LARRY HOWARD?). That's what I get for going from memory. MY BAD. I APPOLOGIZE. (BTW, This was according to Colonel William C. Bishop's description of "Angel" to Dick Russell in TMWKTM.) Also, Russell quotes Richard Case Nagell as telling him that "Angel" was 5'11" - 6'0", and a "stocky" 180 pounds. If that's true, then we have two different people (Bishop and Nagell) saying that "Angel" was somewhere between 5'10" and 6'0". Not exactly "short" in anyone's book, is it? So I wonder how Sylvia Odio could have called him "short" (Or did she? Hmmm... Going from memory here. I should probably appologize in advance. She probably said he was just "shorter" than Leopoldo, or perhaps she said he was really, really "tall". Oh, my!) Regarding the photo of Hall "apparently lecturing" Howard in the presence of Seymour and an "unidentified Cuban," please go to Spartacus Educational's wonderful website page on William Seymour. When you find the photo, please post it here if you want to. P.S. I just knew I shouldn't have used the phrase "(apparently) lecturing" . LOL .... http://www.spartacus...JFKseymourW.htm Thanks, --Tommy . P.P.S. My whole point about Hall (and/or Howard) having a full beard at that time (late September 1963) was that IF they were at Sylvia Odio's apartment door with whomever (Oswald, Seymour, The Tooth Fairy, etc), wouldn't Sylvia have mentioned that Hall (and/or Howard) had a full beard? I don't remember reading anywhere that she'd mentioned that. Just something about a mustache on the face of either "Leopoldo" or "Angel." (of course, I can't remember which one right now. But there I go, again, relying on my memory. I appologize....