Gene Kelly

Paul: I have no further knowledge of Mr. Porter beyond the fact that he worked at Collins. For me, its just another one of those many "coincidences" that crop up all around the Oswalds and Paines. On one hand, Mrs. Porter has remained in the Dallas area and is apparently still married to Mr. Porter after all these years. Quite an accomplishment in this day and age. On the other hand, there has been much written about Collins Radio and its government connections, including the Carl Mather (Tippit neighbor) incident, the mission(s) of the Rex ship, and Oswald's visit with retired Admiral Chester Brouton, a Collins executive, to name a few. So it seems odd that two years after the assassination, Marina marries a man from Collins. She was so young at the time (24) and it was a volatile period for the post-Warren cover-up. Ruby was still alive and in jail (trying to talk). Witnesses were being eliminated (Dorothy Kilgallen was killed in November 1965) but Garrison wouldn't start his investigation for another year. Some biographies state that she "perfected her English" in those ensuing years. Had a son with Porter, became a naturalized citizen, and generally stayed out of the limelight. Pure speculation on my part, but it would seem that a protective layer would be formed around her. Gene

And two years after the assassination, Marina married a former Collins Radio employee, Kenneth Porter ...

Scott: Sorry for the spelling error. Believe it or not, my boss's boss's name is Scot (one 't') and it took me the better part of a year to learn to not spell it with two t's. He is pretty sensitive about that. After a few pithy emails from above, and some gentle admonishment, I finally got it straight. Then you come along ... and when I responded to you, the muscle memory went into effect. Regarding Dulles, I simply find it hard to ignore him. I am simply amazed at a guy who lasted that long in government service (since 1916, for goodness sake). He was a part of the CFR, the power council for a decade. He was in the middle of US foreign relations through two world wars, and into the Cold War. I agree that he probably deferred to the likes of Harriman, McCloy, Rockefeller, and others more senior and powerful. I'd also imagine that a guy like him viewed JFK as an inexperienced upstart. I have no clue as to whether he lead, followed, inspired, masterminded or executed the plot and murder. Determining his exact role is pure speculation; and, likely indeterminate. But it has his imprimatur all over it (that I'm certain of). Perhaps it was his dedicated followers - the acolytes that worshiped at his intelligence throne (Hunt, Angleton, Harvey, Helms, et al). I do know that whomever orchestrated this hit really knew what they were doing. They were very good and practiced at it. They're smart, and left an impossible trail to follow... very few loose ends. But that is what we're all chasing here, right? Gene

And before the week is up, we will be at "Ocean's Eleven" ... and I want to be Joey Bishop (a Philly guy)

Scot: What you'll get when you read Talbot's book is the fact that Dulles betrayed every President that he ever "served" (and I use that word loosely). From FDR to Truman, and then Eisenhower...up to and including Kennedy. He had his own selfish agenda, and everyone knew it. Justice Goldberg called him a traitor ... pretty strong words, if you ask me. His mistress (as well as his wife, if she were honest) would likely characterize him as essentially a Nazi, although their nickname for him was the "shark". In fairness to Talbot, the book is less about who masterminded the JFK hit, and more about the dark sides of Allen Welsh Dulles. As an informed person once told me (when asked his opinion of who did it): "What makes you think that the JFK plot was the worst thing that he ever did?" Gene

Tom: I too read DCB and Talbot was not suggesting that Dulles alone engineered the event. The book opened my eyes to several important observations. First, the de Gaulle action has the same earmarks of what happened to JFK ... clearly a CIA-assisted event. It is telling how active Dulles remained after his retirement from CIA, meeting with his faithful acolytes, and no doubt setting something in play. Being at the Farm (Camp Peary) during the weekend is conspicuous to say the least. Angleton's strange allegiance, and how he got his position and was possibly holding damaging information over Dulles is also interesting. The fact that Dulles manipulated the Unitarian/Quakers, and his use of liberal religious organizations as "an ideological mask over his operatives" is insightful, making a logic tie to the Paines (besides the mary Bancroft connection). So was his sponsorship of Richard Nixon, who became his "mouthpiece in Congress" after Truman was elected. For me, the Nixon relationship is the most chilling revelation as far as implicating others in the assassination is concerned. It suggests all manner of implications. Gene

Forgive me Paul, but she sounds just like you... she was not there to "help" Garrison. None of this passes the red-faced, Bozo test.

Letter from Ruth to Jim Garrison: "It has occurred to me that if I can be helpful to your search it is as a person who might raise doubts about your conclusions and data from a position basically sympathetic to your objectives. If there are ways I can help I shall be glad... I was struck by your passionate concern for Man, and by the intense grief you feel over the loss of President Kennedy. I, too, feel that loss acutely. He was a most remarkable person, and extremely valuable to our country. Yikes and yuck ... makes the blood curl. What arrogance. Reminds me of the self-serving and gratuitous letter that George de Mohrenschildt wrote to Janet Auchincloss, mother of Jackie Kennedy, a few weeks after the assassination. George wrote Janet from Haiti on December 12th and the tone of this letter - particularly his characterization of Oswald (markedly different from his previous descriptions) - demonstrates a manipulative and devious personality: “Since we lived in Dallas permanently last year and before, we had the misfortune to have met Oswald and especially his wife Marina sometime last fall. Both my wife and I tried to help poor Marina who could not speak any English, was mistreated by her husband; she and the baby were malnourished and sickly. We took them to the hospital. Sometime last fall we heard that Oswald had beaten his wife cruelly, so we drove to their miserable place and forcibly took Marina and the child away from the character. Then he threatened me and my wife, but I did not take him seriously. Marina stayed with the family of Russian refugees for a while, keeping her baby, but finally decided to return to her husband. Somehow then we lost interest in the Oswalds. It is really a shame that such crimes occur in our times and in our country. But there is so much jealousy for success and there is so much desire for publicity on the part of all shady characters that assassinations are bound to occur. Better precautions should have been taken. Remember our discussion one day on the plane from Dallas to Washington? We spoke of criminal children and of the terrible problem of delinquency in the South... Oswald is just an expression of that cancer which is eating American youth.” As Super Bowl approaches, it certainly invokes the pragmatic challenge; "C'mon Man!"

We tend to think of Marina Prusakova as an innocent in all of this. I've read some thought-provoking stuff that indicates she spoke much better English than she let on (e.g. with Robert Webster in Leningrad). As John Armstrong has pointed out, Marina's cooperation with the government and her ability to supply evidence at the most opportune times is noticeable and quite obvious. This would throw another variable into the Neely Street equation.

Scott: Your points are insightful. I am willing to separate the planning from the cover-up, as distinct players and impetus go. Dulles had few strong years left by 1961... but he was not a man to worry about losing his CIA job. I do think a legitimate case can be made that he was a psychopath. His contemporaries in government (e.g. Justice Goldberg) labelled him a traitor, and it was clear he was protecting United Fruit and rich interests abroad. His wife and his mistress both nicknamed him the "shark". To say he was a friend of Kennedy would be a stretch ... and I'm sure that Dulles was a guy who kept a few friends close, and his enemies even closer. It seemed JFK tried to give him a "soft landing" after he stepped down, and he was awarded the highest intelligence honors. But if you look at the work of Bill Kelly, Greg Parker and others, you'll se a distinct strategic pattern in the assassinations of Jorge Gaitán in 1948 in Columbia, the 1944 Valkyrie Plot, and the August 1962 attempt on Charles de Gaulle. The intelligence names commonly associated with the JFK hit are all Dulles' acolytes. It was obvious that he was instrumental in the cover-up ... but his hand and modus operandi are all over the planning and execution as well. For me, its a strong gut feeling (sixth sense) that doesn't go away, no matter what I read or learn. Gene

Ed: Just envision what a pressure-packed time it was in Dallas immediately after the President is assassinated. Anyone with Oswald knowledge or acquaintance is probably besides themselves. Imagine if that happened today with cell phones, social media, Facebook etc. Information would be traveling at the speed of light. But in 1963, people are considerably limited in sharing information. And ordinary common-folk are now being questioned by the FBI or DPD (or "reporters") ... in those days, one certainly didn't question authority like today. All you had to go upon was the television and newspapers. Fleeting glimpses of an Oswald persona (tee-shirt, black eye, handcuffed and surrounded by guys in Stetsons). The stilted reporting in the news. Your points are well taken, as one of the strong indicators of conspiracy for me (personally) is how the evidence and witnesses are being carefully managed on the ground. Kind of like the police lineups with Oswald; the Tippit eyewitnesses. Sandy, Minnie, Clydie and the Grays/William's never had a chance. Gene

Sandy: Regarding this Neely Street apartment and residency, the topic has caused me to step back and ask myself some basic questions such as: when exactly (date) did the Oswalds move in? why did they select this particular address... who facilitated their rental, since it seems they were being mentored and assisted by their so-called White-Russian friends their 'babysitters' became the Paines at this point - Ruth with Marina, Mike with Lee - and we have some record of Ruth moving them in (i.e. a white station wagon). Seems odd that Ruth (please stay with me, Marina) Paine would put them in an apartment ... why not her place? Was Neely Street close to Ruth's house? why was Gary Taylor (George D.'s son in law) visiting Neely? It's recorded that he was there for a "friendly visit" and told Marina about his impending divorce (from Alexandra). What's up with that? Oswald used Gary Taylor’s address to take out the post office box where the infamous Mannlicher mail order weapon was allegedly sent ... that fact alone starts to connects quite a number of 'dots' (coincidence mounting) when (date) and why did they leave? So Lee could find work in New Orleans? Why so far away? or did they leave because of the contrived Walker incident, and the potshot that someone took? A chronology that on March 2nd the Oswalds moved to the apartment on 214 West Neely Street, and on April 24th Lee arrived in New Orleans to stay with his aunt Lillian Murret. Can we believe those dates? Its interesting that - after this infamous residency (maybe we can call the movie "Seven Weeks at Neely") - no one else apparently rents or lives at Neely Street until after the assassination. When Lee returned from his fictitious visit to Mexico and NO, why didn't he just resume living at Neely Street (with Marina). This is the only recorded time when Lee shows a militant and violent side ... perhaps he was off his medications? He acquired a rifle and a pistol, posed with the weapons for the backyard photos, attempted to kill Walker, threatened to shoot Nixon. He is portrayed as essentially a pacifist before and after Neely. Bad water in the pipes? Spring fever? Its been pointed out that all we have to go upon is the word of the Paines and the de Mohrenschildt’s, and some second-hand interviews of the mysterious M. Waldo George. ... no records. If the Oswalds really didn't live there, then where were they living? Perhaps Neely Street was an arranged safe house, where all of the key evidence is being put into play. Maybe the game strategy is to keep Lee and Marina separate from each other, to better set the intricate web being created. A few cameo appearances at Neely, and some impostors to complete the picture. After all, such a manufactured legend would be entirely consistent with all of the other bogus bread crumbs being laid onto the trail at this pivotal period. Gene

Paul: I wish you well and respect your view on Walker. I can't sign-up to it, but that's OK. It too seems contrived ... tempting misdirection, by a bunch of characters no more trustworthy or admirable than JFK's killers. Stay on it, if you will, but my request is to leave the Ruth Paine threads alone... unless you think that she's central to Walker's schemes. The same holds for Carol Hewett's work ... its original, thought-provoking and moves the conversation forward. It doesn't need to be refuted, point-by-point, in detail. My interest in Ruth goes far beyond the contrived Walker letter, which is "discovered" eight days after the assassination. Ruth sent it to Marina, claiming that she had to have two books with her; one entitled Our Child and the other Book of Helpful Instructions. The FBI took seven latent fingerprints off the note; none of them matched Lee or Marina. Later in life - when Ruth is interviewed in California - she trots out the letter as an article of faith. This alone makes me all the more wary of it... and 50 years later, it still smells fishy. Letter aside, I mention Quakers, Philadelphia, Friends meetinghouses and the like not because I question Ruth's religious affiliations, but rather because these are a local part of history for me. That Ruth was associated with this area, and taught in Germantown in later years, makes her story more interesting and personal. Quakers are a staunch and idealistic bunch; Ruth seems cut from that cloth. Ruth was described by Jim Garrison as a “rangy, intelligent woman with widespread interests... ". It is her behavior that is of interest. And the preponderance of information and coincidence surrounding Ruth Paine make her a person of interest in the renewed investigation of John Kennedy's murder. Regards, Gene

Paul: I'm not quite sure what to make of you. I hesitate to be critical, as I appreciate reading some of your earlier work on Walker and your take on the plot, as it is different than mainstream. I wish to respect your views. You play this devil's advocate role in the Ruth Paine threads. You add nothing useful or insightful ... I can learn nothing from your rebuttals, as you offer nothing original. You simply refute, critique and lecture... then challenge others to bring "facts" when you have nothing yourself to offer except contrarian conjecture. I am here to learn as much as possible about the Paines, because I believe that they're suspicious and important to the underlying truth in the JFK's murder. Unfortunately, I cannot learn anything from you about them. To address your comments on my post, I have no clue as to what Mrs. Paine really was/is ... her affiliation, motive, even her religion. I have no particular insight as to her motives, and whether she was CIA, KGB, FBI, ACLU, KKK, FPCC, YWCA or Republican. I grew up and live near where she and Michael come from, and I know plenty of folks who are Quakers in the Philadelphia area. I drive by Friends Meetinghouses every day in my travels. I went to school close by Paoli PA (the so-called wealthy Main Line of suburban Philadelphia) and therefore find the Paines/Hydes and Young's to be interesting. I have no desire to brand or typecast Ruth. Those titles and characterizations are meaningless ... rebuttable presumptions (in Latin, praesumptio iuris tantum) to be debated ad nauseum. The Forum should be a healthy, engaging group dynamic. If you have nothing of value to offer with respect to the Paines, I respectfully suggest that you find a Walker thread where like minds deliberate on the radical right and their role in the murder of JFK. Gene

Jon: See the "Neely Street Mysteries" (2003, C. Wernerhoff) and the previous Education Forum threads with Greg Parker (2011, April 10) Re: "Neely St Questions". To quote some of the work done principally by Greg: The owner was not called to give testimony, despite the importance of Oswald's stay. He is listed with three names: "M.W. George", "Waldo George" and "Jim George". He worked for an insurance company no longer in business. One of the pieces of evidence placing Oswald at Neely Street was a pay stub found at the same time as the bus transfer, and which belonged to a former resident. No rental records were obtained by any of the investigating authorities, and the electric and gas were inconsistent with true occupancy The tenants of the ground floor apartment (Mr. and Mrs. George B Gray) would have been crucial witnesses to this extremely important time period (i.e. see Oswald with his rifle, or witnessed the backyard photo session, seen visitors). A Secret Service Report from December 1963, however, states succinctly: “The Gray family has now moved and Mr. George does not know where they moved to.” Few neighbors recognized Oswald from photos as anyone they recalled. One couple stated that the apartment was occupied during the relevant period by a couple with two kids. George Mohrenschildt's son in law (Gary Taylor) had photography experience. His former wife Alexandra confirmed “he was working on and off with a photographer”. Oswald himself (in custody) vigorously denied ever living there - despite such residency having little bearing on the authenticity of the backyard photos The mysterious owner, for reasons not given, claims to have padlocked the apartment after it was vacated in May. He also claimed some unknown party had been gaining access for unknown reasons in the months leading up to the assassination. Most of the "evidence" that Lee Oswald lived there comes from his wife (Marina), Ruth and Michael Paine, and George and Jeanne DeMohrenschildt. Oswald told his interrogators in custody not once but twice that he had never lived there. According to one Carl Wernerhoff (Neely Street Mysteries) "... when it was pointed out that certain friends of his had told police that they had visited him there, he assured the police that they were mistaken. The tendency to disassociate himself from Neely St. - at the cost of contradicting the statements of others - is a central mystery of the case". Gene

Sandy: Other than bringing forward what Greg (and others) have found about the Neely Street residence, my main point was that there seem far too many coincidences surrounding the Paines. If I were to boil down "the real Paines" to a simple conclusion, its simply too many coincidences. Ruth's two documented visits in March are an example of that theme. I only recently became aware of the research and facts surrounding the Neely Street duplex. Oswald's brief and questionable residency (imprecisely recorded as somewhere between March-May) at 214 W. Neely St. coincides with much of the evidence created to establish his legend as a radical, capable of violence. This is the pivotal period when he allegedly acquired a rifle and a pistol, posed with the weapons for the backyard photos, attempted to kill Walker, and even hinted at an attempt on the life of Nixon (shades of Arthur Bremer and Wallace). As many have surmised, everything about the Neely duplex sure smells "fishy". Coincidence abounds. Gene

According to some good factual digging by Greg Parker in 2011: March 12, 1963: Ruth Paine visits Marina at the new apartment on Neely Street (the safe house where he never lived). Also that day, Lee Oswald orders a rifle from Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago. March 20, 1963: Ruth Paine makes her second trip to visit Marina at the Neely St address. Also that day, the rifle and the revolver are shipped. Marina is allegedly taken away from the apartment on both occasions ... coincidence? I think not.

Scott: I would be interested in your opinion of why Watergate had to happen. Gene

Bill: Your Valkyrie analysis is most excellent. I am struck by how your instincts were drawn it, as the topic pops up several times, too many to be just coincidental. It points strongly towards Dulles et al (and Ms. Bancroft) as the true masterminds. "Castro Did it" is an obvious trap (in basketball, like a pick and roll, double screen down low). LBJ is also way too obvious to be real (used, yes... plotter, no) ... his complicity and need (cui bono) are misdirection and confusion. One begins to connect dots with the Gaitán assassination too. Good work, Gene

Don: I've had some experience in teaching, creating courses, and developing a syllabus and course outline. JFK is obviously a topic that can go in many directions, with numerous interesting aspects and subplots. Given that you are preparing for a semester and 15-20 classes (if you teach once or twice per week), I would approach this as follows. There's a separate thread recently that in essence asked "what is the one single compelling fact of this case that sticks out and convinces you of conspiracy?" That answer (or list) is different for many, but there are a handful of things that just don't add up or seem contrived, coincidental or suspicious. Why not structure the JFK course (i.e. each class) on those very topics, such as: A factual record in contention 50 years later Subverted and failed investigations (WC, Garrison, HSCA, AARB) Crime scene evidence pattern and control (TSBD, 10th & Patton, Paine garage) The Plaza kill zone (the case for triangulated ambush) The implausible Manlicher Carcano CE 399 Provenance of the Zapruder film (kept from public by C. D Jackson) Obfuscation of key testimony (e.g. Carolyn Arnold, Victoria Adams, Julia Mercer, Richard Carr) Ruby Oswald impersonators, doubles (Lee and Harvey) Mexico City Infiltration and collusion of DPD (Hill, Westbrook, Sawyer, Baker, et al) Secret Service protection breakdown Tippit murder Chicago plot/Thomas Valee Parkland physician intimidation Limousine damage and cleaning Wounds, jacket hole, autopsy photographic record, Sibert & O'Neill report Michael and Ruth Paine Backyard photograph authenticity Composition, conduct and "packaging"of Warren Commission Related/causal historical backdrops (Bay of Pigs, Cold War, Vietnam) Gene

Greg: In that basement picture (plenty of room for dark room developing), I do see a model train set on the table. Not sure if its Lionel or American Flyer but (as a train collector/enthusiast) it caught my eye. Not unusual for any family circa 1963 and just a month away from Christmas. This soberly reminds one that there were small children in this household and in the center of the story during these relatively 'dark' happenings. Back to the Worker and the Militant, I am struck by how flimsy that magazine story is ... and these are facts (not opinions or conjecture) backed up by statements and testimony. This one aspect alone seems enough to make the Paines persons of interest if not suspects or co-conspirators in the crime. It reminds me of the unfortunate events in San Bernardino CA last month and the neighbor who bought the guns for the shooters. He was charged with conspiracy and other counts related to the weapons, interrogated for 10 days by the FBI, and is in jail. Contrast that with how the Paines were treated with "kid gloves" in the murder of a president ... it makes my heart sink. Gene

"I was pleased to throw away anything I could ... I just didn't want it". Ruth's explanation for these two particularly auspicious magazines (i.e. timing of the mail, first-time mailings, awareness after the assassination, not reporting them to the FBI or authorities, and then discarding them) does not pass a red-faced test (pun intended).

Jim: I appreciate the renewed interest in the Paines. I do think they are "clear beacons leading to the killers" as Vincent Salandria stated. I also strongly sense the hand of Allen Dulles... I think he used them in the same fashion that he used Noel Field. I find this quote by Marguerite Oswald to be telling: "The proud and perfect Quaker ... I keep saying she is a fraud and xxxx; she is evil, and selfish and the cause of it all. I would wipe up the floor with her." Gene

Ed: Here is what Oswald said while briefly in custody about the sea bags: "The garage at the Paines' house has some sea bags that have a lot of my personal belongings. I left them after coming back from New Orleans in September. The name Alek Hidell was picked up while working in New Orleans in the Fair Play for Cuba organization. I did have a small rifle some years in the past. I had a shotgun in Russia and hunted some while there. I didn't bring the rifle from New Orleans. – Interrogation of Oswald by Capt. Fritz

Jim: Good insights about the Barrett article. I have no horse in his race, other than I came across it this morning after almost being done my reading of Talbot's book (which I have not been able to put down). I must also profess that I teach as an adjunct at Villanova (at nights), so it struck me that he had reviewed the book and had a certain view. I read his reservations as mainly with the generalizations of Eisenhower's lack of hands-on or knowledge about what was going on. I frankly didn't get that same impression from Talbot's work, although what did come across is how Ike got bamboozled by Dulles in much the same fashion as JFK. What has really struck me (about Devil's Chessboard) is how complicit and connected Nixon and Dulles were; almost as partners in crime, with the same world views and dirty laundry. That Dulles would have a dinner with Nixon (to commiserate) the night after the Bay of Pigs fiasco is telling. Nixon seems to have owed/leveraged his career to Dulles and company. That sets off all kinds of alarm bells for me. Gene