Ashton Gray

Thanks, Robert. Robert Charles-Dunne's observations are always incisive and perceptive. The rest I fear reads like a CIA public relations pamphlet (glorifying Richard Helms, of course), starting right at the title: "The James Schlesinger Directive." The order that produced the "Family Jewels" never was anything but an op by William Colby, Vernon Walters, and fellow CIA thugs, signed off by Schlesinger as he was picking up his hat and coat on his way out the door—all, of course, only after the pinworms Helms and Gottlieb had destroyed the worst of the evidence, which would have fried all of them. The self-authored martyred story of CIA "confessions" actually was one of the most effective cover-ups of CIA crimes ever, as I at least partially documented on forum page 5 of the thread Masters of Deceit, Propaganda, Disinformation and Corruption. No forum thread title ever was more apt, and the Colby directive (signed off by Schlesinger) was one of the masterful applications ever of deceit, propaganda, disinformation, and corruption. It saddens me to see the fiction still given so much currency in an enlightened forum, just the way the CIA wrote it for their own aggrandizement. Ashton

It's rather disconcerting to realize that I once worked with the CIA, although not as an agent (at least as far as I know). While in the Peace Corps in Peru in the 1960s, I established a small library in the community where I lived, thanks to funds from AID. And the AID folks seemed like such nice people. I suppose this is proof that the CIA, through a front company, has done something good at least once. I don't recall having to do anything in return, nor being subjected to any mind-altering drugs (other than pisco, a powerful Peruvian brandy that I often bought and administered myself). I was also able to get a medical post started in my community through funds from a concert by the U.S. Marine Band. (The funds came through the Peace Corps office. I didn't hear this concert, and only assumed that something called the U.S. Marine Band actually existed.) I guess this means that I once had a connection, however indirect, with Naval Intelligence. My work with the CIA and ONI was technically against Peace Corps policy, as the PC was determined not to be associated (at least officially) with intelligence agencies. Even then Peruvians would sometimes accuse PC volunteers of being American spies. My stock answer was to ask them what they had in Peru to spy on. That always stumped them. Little did I know that they were indeed being spied on, by AID. My naivete in Peru reached its apex when in 1964 I voted by absentee ballot for Lyndon Johnson for president. (What choice did I have? Barry Goldwater was going to escalate the war in Vietnam.) I have never lived that down and never will. If good people weren't accomplishing good things through the auspices of front organizations, they would be ineffective fronts indeed. Parasites attach themselves to extremely benign hosts. Ashton

I only have some sketchy information that has started taking foggy shape in the Wayback Machine on this at the moment, but it was such a head-turning curiosity to me that I felt I ought to at least get this topic started, hoping and believing that it is going to grow significantly. G. Gordon Liddy was in the FBI from 1957 until September 1962, and prior to resigning in September 1962 had been involved in COINTELPRO. In his autobiography, "Will," he leaps from 1962 to 1965 with hardly a nod to anything in between except Too Much Information about the rhythm method, birth control pills, the Catholic religion in relation to all of that, and his crisis of faith. Before getting into the little bit of substantive data he does let slip out, let me mention that in a sworn deposition, Liddy moved his resignation from the FBI an entire year, claiming that it was September 1963 instead of September 1962. Oh, what a difference a year makes. When Liddy "resigned" from the FBI in September of 1962, he went to work at this father's law firm, which recently had moved from we-know-not-where to Wall Street in New York City. And one of Sylvester Liddy's clients was Marathon Oil. Liddy is extremely cagey and vague about dates during this period. Efforts are being made to get records that will open this up, and any information that can be supplied on this by anyone will be invaluable. But here are a few interesting coincidences in time and place leading up to Liddy's pretty thoroughly unexplained "resignation" from the FBI: On 3 August 1962, the CIA's Louis "Jolly" West, of the Department of Psychiatry, Neurology, and Behavioral Sciences at the University of Oklahoma School of Medicine, killed an elephant with a massive dose of LSD. On 5 August 1962, Marilyn Monroe was found dead, purportedly a suicide. On 13 August 1962, a congressional hearing was held regarding Ruth Hyde Paine's brother-in-law John Lindsay Hoke, associated with the CIA front organization, Agency for International Development (AID). Ruth Hyde Paine's father, William Avery Hyde, was in some way also connected with AID (but little information can be found on his role with AID). The hearings were over financial improprieties in a project of boat development between AID and Hoffman Electronics Corporation of California under circumstances which Congressman Hardy described as "collusion." On 21 August 1962, the CIA granted an Approval for Liaison by CIA Engineering Staff with John Lindsey Hoke, who had been cleared for classified information up to and including Top Secret since 19 April 1954. On 27 August 1962, George De Mohrenschildt sent a chart of Haiti and surrounds from Port-au-Prince, Haiti, to a Mr. Raigorodsky of Dallas, Texas, marked with various claims of development DeMohrenschildt purportedly was planning. Although the chart doesn't say so, DeMohrenschildt was in league with Clemard Joseph Charles at the time. On or about 1 September 1962, G. Gordon Liddy retired from the FBI and went to work for his father's law firm on Wall Street in New York City, where he would remain, primarily, into sometime in 1965—bracketing the Kennedy assassination. And one of the accounts of the firm at the time was Marathon Oil. On Tuesday, 25 September 1962, CIA's Mrs. Van Sast called Naval Intelligence wanting to know John Lindsay Hoke's Top Secret "clearance and basis." On Tuesday, 25 September 1962, an article about John Lindsay Hoke appeared in the Washington Daily News titled "AID Official Has Wings Clipped." The article simply charged that Hoke has been alleged to have been planning to "make personal profit from" a venture for AID. On Friday, 28 September there was this CIA notation regarding Ruth Hyde Paine's brother-in-law John Lindsay Hoke: "EAB card reflects on September 28, 1962, Subject's Security Officer advised that SAC was cleared for access to classified information up to and including Top Secret." On Friday, 9 November 1962, the Assistant United States Attorney, Frederick G. Smith, quietly declined to prosecute John Lindsay Hoke, saying that the violations of federal law by Hoke were "merely of a technical nature." Okay, I've just got to stop right there. Don't you love the way these scum operate? If the Hoke Joke doesn't rip open the whole squirming bag-o-maggots that is Washington, D.C. for you, check to see if your breath will fog a mirror. Now, there's lots else going on around all of this, but these are some of the very interesting things surrounding G. Gordon Liddy's rather sudden and unexplained "resignation" from the FBI (and COINTELPRO) to go off to the Big Apple and work with Daddy Liddy on Wall Street in Daddy's law firm—which had Marathon Oil as one of its clients. Of course, also there in New York City on Wall Street at the time was the investment firm of Train, Cabot and Assossiates—CIA front for WUSALINE and the WUBRINY operations tied to Thomas James Devine and George H.W. Bush. And it is while G. Gordon Liddy is working there on Wall Street that Clemard Joseph Charles and George DeMohrenschildt are known to have been in New York City in April 1963, including their visit to Train, Cabot, after which Clemard Joseph Charles met with vice president of Chase Manhattan Bank Jerry W. Johnston and secured a loan of $1 million dollars—as long as it was backed by the CIA front AID (who Ruth Hyde Paine's father and brother-in-law BOTH were working for at the time). And who else was in New York City during this fertile period in 1963? James McCord, of CIA's Manhattan Field Office. In fact, there are some indications that McCord may even have been the "Special Agent In Charge" of the Manhattan Field Office. And I'm going to leave this here at the moment, except to say that one of the offshoots of this little research investigation is a trip G. Gordon Liddy took sometime in 1963 to Ohio and trips to Washington, D.C., puportedly on the Marathon Oil account. And while this is still being narrowed down, it's beginning to look like Liddy's little D.C. and Ohio trips very well might have coordinated awfully closely with Ruth Hyde Paine's little trip to Washington, D.C., to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and to Ohio between 24 August and 10 September 1963. And if that's not scary enough, look at this little section of timeline: On Thursday, 22 August 1963, the CIA again granted an Approval for Liaison with John Lindsay Hoke "on a continuing basis," reaffirming his clearance for classified information "up to and including Top Secret." Three days later, on Sunday, 24 August 1963, Ruth Hyde Paine traveled to Baltimore, Maryland, then the next day to Washington, D.C. "to stay with sister." And "sister" happens to be Sylvia Hyde Hoke—who has a CIA-blessed secret clearance from AID, and whose husband is John Lindsay Hoke. Five days later, on Thursday, 29 August 1963, Ruth Hyde Paine left the Hokes and went to Paoli, Philadelphia, just outside Philadelphia, to "wait for" her father would will join her there. Her father, of course, is William Avery Hyde, also of AID. On 10 September 1963, Ruth Hyde Paine left Paoli for Ohio to see "relatives and friends." Also in Ohio is the headquarters of Marathon Oil—where G. Gordon Liddy was afoot around this time. Ashton Gray

I'm posting this in two topics where it seems particularly germane. In regard to the throat wound—which could not possibly have been caused by a projectile, as demonstrated repeatedly in this thread and others, and demonstrated again in the message just above—I several times have posted this image below as a type of device that could have been used to create the throat wound after John F. Kennedy's arrival at Parkland Hospital: I think it's now time to mention a salient fact: prior to the murder of John F. Kennedy in 1963, at an exact date unknown, the CIA's Operation Division of the Office of Medical Services had produced a ball-point pen rigged with a hypodermic syringe. The purpose of the pen was a delivery system for a potent and deadly poison. The needle was "so fine," CIA's Dr. Edward Gunn later boasted, "that the victim would hardly feel it when it was inserted." Gunn compared it with "the scratch from a shirt with too much starch." Indeed, and so well put, Dr. Gunn. Of course if one is lulled into believing the CIA's own cover stories, one can become gullible enough to believe that this device had been developed to assassinate Fidel Castro—which never happened. The same year the CIA developed this delivery system for poison, though, the President of the United States was assassinated. After having been shot several times, but not in the throat, he somehow came to have a puncture wound delivered to his throat—after arriving at Parkland Hospital—with some device not dissimilar in size and shape to a ball-point pen, a device very probably rigged with a hypodermic needle as a delivery system for a potent and deadly poison. All useful forensic evidence of the puncture wound was almost immediately destroyed by Malcolm Perry in Trauma Room One of Parkland Hospital, and very soon afterward Malcolm Perry proclaimed to the entire world that the wound in the throat had been an "entry wound" of a bullet. Ashton Gray

In regard to the throat wound—which could not possibly have been caused by a projectile, as demonstrated repeatedly in this thread and others—I several times have posted this image as a type of device that could have been used to create the throat wound after John F. Kennedy's arrival at Parkland Hospital: I think it's now time to mention a salient fact: prior to the murder of John F. Kennedy in 1963, at an exact date unknown, the CIA's Operation Division of the Office of Medical Services had produced a ball-point pen rigged with a hypodermic syringe. The purpose of the pen was a delivery system for a potent and deadly poison. The needle was "so fine," CIA's Dr. Edward Gunn later boasted, "that the victim would hardly feel it when it was inserted." Gunn compared it with "the scratch from a shirt with too much starch." Indeed, and so well put, Dr. Gunn. Of course if one is lulled into believing the CIA's own cover stories, one can become gullible enough to believe that this device had been developed to assassinate Fidel Castro—which never happened. The same year the CIA developed this delivery system for poison, though, the President of the United States was assassinated. After having been shot several times, but not in the throat, he somehow came to have a puncture wound delivered to his throat—after arriving at Parkland Hospital—with some device not dissimilar in size and shape to a ball-point pen, a device very probably rigged with a hypodermic needle as a delivery system for a potent and deadly poison. All useful forensic evidence of the puncture wound was almost immediately destroyed by Malcolm Perry in Trauma Room One of Parkland Hospital, and very soon afterward Malcolm Perry proclaimed to the entire world that the wound in the throat had been an "entry wound" of a bullet. Ashton Gray

You are right. First of all, it has to be online to update it. And I found just what you said. Someone put a building at 26 degrees 57'13.58 North and 80 degrees 50'46.34 West. If you click on the i there, it tells about this man who wanted to put things on Google Earth that are artistic. And he planted one. I don't like this idea. If he wants to paint a picture, find a canvas. Kathy Kathy, I don't disagree that it's at least of some peculiar interest that this particular address, out of the millions available, has had a 3D structure plunked down on it. I just wanted to clear up the mystery of why it appeared as it did in Google Earth. Ashton

Oh. Well, perhaps I didn't quote enough of Malcolm Perry to give him an opportunity to explain just to what lengths he went to accomplish exactly that. Here's a reprise of his relevant testimony, expanded: MALCOLM PERRY: ...I then began the tracheotomy making a transverse incision right through the wound in the neck. SPECTER: Why did you elect to make the tracheotomy incision through the wound in the neck... MALCOLM PERRY: The area of the wound, as pointed out to you in the lower third of the neck anteriorly is customarily the spot one would electively perform the tracheotomy. ...Therefore, for expediency's sake I went directly to that level to obtain control of the airway. ...Once the transverse incision through the skin and subcutaneous tissues was made, it was necessary [sic] to separate the strap muscles covering the anterior muscles of the windpipe and thyroid. At that point the trachea was noted to be deviated slightly to the left and I found it necessary [sic] to sever the exterior strap muscles on the other side to reach the trachea. ...At that point I was down in the trachea. Once the trachea had been exposed I took the knife and incised the windpipe at the point of the bullet injury. Now, I'm the first to admit that Malcolm Perry did not take a hot poker and cauterize the throat wound, or pour Red Devil Lye or Drano on it, or carve the whole thing entirely out of the body and take it home in his pocket as a souvenir, and I would stand up to defend him in a court of law as not having done a single one of those things. Failing that, though, I don't know exactly how he could have destroyed all evidence of the throat wound any more thoroughly. See detailed account of butchery above. Damn good question. I think you'll find the evidence points to just the opposite conclusion: there is a bullet hole through both JFK's coat and through JFK's shirt that match up very precisely with the hole in the autopsy photo of the back, viz: John Dolva finds my results on the above questionable, and is sporadically posting messages in another thread to the effect of "I am moving my left foot... I am moving my right foot" and someday may—or may not—get around to posting a meaningful result. Meanwhile, I stand by the above. The throat wound that Malcolm Perry destroyed, on the other hand, has no corresponding bullet hole in shirt or tie whatsoever, and could not possibly have been caused by a projectile of any description: The only conclusion possible is that the throat wound was created at some point after John F. Kennedy arrived at Parkland Hospital—which, of course, would fully account for why all evidence of it had to be destroyed. And, consistent with that, the throat wound was created precisely where just such medically "justified" destruction could be carried out and explained away. Ashton

That roof on this Google Earth is not a real roof, but a computer generated one...why? I went back and looked again, and the roof does appear to be faked. Whey would anybody put a fake roof on this building? Jack Google bought the 3D program Sketch-Up and issued Sketch-Up Free, then created a plug-in that allows people to create 3D structures and "place" them in Google Earth. It appears to me that that's what is being seen in the image. Whether there is a way to overide such user-placed 3D creations or not is something I haven't bothered finding out. It talks about placing such things in Google Earth at the bottom of the left column on this page. Ashton

The left side autopsy photo shows a gaping tracheotomy inciscion. A single scalpel swipe is sufficient Dr. PERRY - Yes. Once the transverse incision through the skin and subcutaneous tissues was made, it was necessary to separate the strap muscles covering the anterior muscles of the windpipe and thyroid. At that point the trachea was noted to be deviated slightly to the left and I found it necessary to sever the exterior strap muscles on the other side to reach the trachea. I noticed a small ragged laceration of the trachea on the anterior lateral right side. I could see the endotracheal tube which had been placed by Dr. Carrico in the wound, but there was evidence of air and blood around the tube because I noted the cuff was just above the injury to the trachea. I noticed a small ragged laceration of the trachea on the anterior lateral right side. I could see the endotracheal tube which had been placed by Dr. Carrico in the wound, but there was evidence of air and blood around the tube because I noted the cuff was just above the injury to the trachea. At that point I was down in the trachea. Once the trachea had been exposed I took the knife and incised the windpipe at the point of the bullet injury. And asked that the endotracheal tube previously placed by Dr. Carrico be withdrawn slightly so I could insert a tracheotomy tube at this level. This was effected and attached to an anesthesia machine which had been brought down by Dr. Jenkins and Dr. Giesecke for better control of circulation. 1. Perhaps when one takes into consideration the entire aspects of the surgical procedure, then the actual size of the tracheotomy incision just may have a different perspective. One, two! One, two! And through and through The vorpal blade went snicker-snack! He left it dead, and with its head He went galumphing back. —Lewis Carroll Malcolm Perry clearly did every "justified" thing he could dream up to destroy all evidence of the throat wound—which conveniently was precisely where he could do that very thing. Yes, faith can be a good thing. God and the CIA both work in mysterious ways. Ashton Gray

Are you going to finish this? Ashton

Well & also; For what it may or may not be worth. The ONLY Registered Professional Land Surveyor to conduct any of the re-enactment survey work (Mr. Robert West), at no point and/or time did he mark on any of the survey plats, or conduct any survey work for impact points of bullets and/or bullet fragments to the curb of Elm St. In fact, had one taken the time to ever speak with him he would have most probably referenced how much time was expended in looking for any such marks which could be attributed to bullets or fragments, with no results. An interesting point that I believe may extend further. It seems that fiction doesn't leave a concrete trail, either. Ashton Fiction doesn't leave a paper trail. Which also happens to be highly fictionous! Having intentionally left a few deliberate "fictionous" paper trails, it is quite simple to accomplish. If you had bothered to study the Watergate forum and the links I've provided repeatedly to articles concerning that, you would know that the methods applied there exposed numerous fictional, fraudulent "paper trails" for just what they were—just more fiction. And fiction doesn't leave a paper trail. Ashton Gray

Well & also; For what it may or may not be worth. The ONLY Registered Professional Land Surveyor to conduct any of the re-enactment survey work (Mr. Robert West), at no point and/or time did he mark on any of the survey plats, or conduct any survey work for impact points of bullets and/or bullet fragments to the curb of Elm St. In fact, had one taken the time to ever speak with him he would have most probably referenced how much time was expended in looking for any such marks which could be attributed to bullets or fragments, with no results. An interesting point that I believe may extend further. It seems that fiction doesn't leave a concrete trail, either. Ashton

IOW Carrico demonstrated with his hand for the WC that the wound was "right above where your tie is."Carrico recalled and elaborated on this for Weisberg (Post Mortem, pp. 375-376; quoted in Never Again, pp. 241-242): I consider Carrico to be a very credible witness, I do not believe he was a conspirator, and I believe based on his certainty about what he saw and testified to that the throat wound was ABOVE THE COLLAR. So poof, there is no mystery as to why no hole in the collar, tie, or front of the shirt. Without wishing at all to "change your mind," Ron, because I never fiddle with a man's faith, I yet would feel remiss in responsibility not to point out for the benefit of others—again—the testimony of another eyewitness, Secret Service Special Agent Kellerman, whose testimony directly contradicts Carrico's very lonely assertion (which was made, if you'll notice, under the guidance of Allen Dulles himself). Here, in contrast, is SA Kellerman's testimony: SPECTER: ...Did you observe any hole in the clothing of the President on the front part, in the shirt or tie area? KELLERMAN: No, sir. SPECTER: From your observation of the wound which you observed in the morgue which you have described as a tracheotomy, would that have been above or below the shirtline when the President was clothed ? KELLERMAN: It would have been below the shirtline, sir. In support of Mr. Kellerman's observation, we have the testimony of Malcolm Perry that he made the tracheotomy incision "right through" the throat wound, and this visual evidence—from two different views that both tell exactly the same tale—concerning the location of said tracheotomy incision and its relationship to the collar and tie: Ashton Gray

Inherent in my original hypothesis on this question (at the beginning of this thread)—that the purpose of the back wound was to provide a "plausible explanation" for a front throat wound (that actually wasn't a bullet wound at all)—is one of two possibilities: What you said (with the addition that somebody at Parkland was going to make damned sure it became "dislodged" during resuscitation efforts and be "found" later, not in the back), or, The use of just such a disintegrating projectile as Cliff Varnell has described for the back shot, with a "magic bullet" of doubtful origin being "found" at just the right time. Both of these possibilities have alignment with the facts as known. In regard to 1. above (and possibly to 2. as well), there is some literature I've seen on a .22 caliber gun purportedly utilized by CIA and underworld mechanics, sometimes with half-loads. Maybe someone familiar with half-loads will shed some light on their effects. In regard to 2. above, if such a calling-card disintegrating round in fact had been used, a primary concern of the perpetrators would be to preemptively get mention of such possibility into the record, and immediately have it "debunked" by the timely "finding" of a loose bullet. It's funny, but the latter is exactly what happened. FBI Agent Sibert wasted not a second doing exactly that the moment the back wound was identified and probed during the autopsy, then made damned sure it got put into the FBI 302. Funny how that kind of crap works out, isn't it? If, e.g., E. Howard Hunt had written that into one of his pulp spy fictions, a decent editor probably would have cut it out with hedge clippers when he stopped laughing. Now the bricks lay on Grand Street Where the neon madmen climb. They all fall there so perfectly, It all seems so well timed. —Bob Dylan Ashton

Bill, it was just a pinch back. I realize the Filemaker Pro format is limited to those who have that program. I think the same fields can be set up in pretty much any spreadsheet or database program (I haven't had any time to subject this to real-world tests, though, and am strapped by my own technical and program-owning limitations). Also, I've tried to negotiate just getting the entire populated database uploaded somewhere as-is in a variety of formats that could then be imported into any database or spreadsheet program, but as I understand it there are complications with that, e.g., the database containing entire news and magazine articles (obtained from NEXIS and other sources) that are copyrighted works, only some of which have also been reduced to non-copyrighted abstracts. Another complication is the way the date fields work so "circa" dates can be included for day and month. I don't even know the technical details of exactly how that works, except that "c." notations can be put into the day and month fields, and that all then gets munched in some kind of calculation that outputs the full date as a text string with the "c." notations. The short story of what I know is that efforts are being made to: get the existing database timeline populated with more specific JFK-related data as fast as possible, exclude certain non-related and copyrighted data entries while leaving all, e.g., CIA-related entries, and, get it all into as many exportable accessible formats as possible and make those public in some fashion. It is a gargantuan task, though, with no resources except sweat equity. One hopeful note: there are some things in the works that might result in the database timeline being ported over to MS Access format soon, which may or may not make it accessible by more people. Ashton

Hi Alan. Here's the relevant excerpt from Perry's Warren Commission testimony: MALCOLM PERRY: ...I then began the tracheotomy making a transverse incision right through the wound in the neck. SPECTER: Why did you elect to make the tracheotomy incision through the wound in the neck... MALCOLM PERRY: The area of the wound, as pointed out to you in the lower third of the neck anteriorly is customarily the spot one would electively perform the tracheotomy. ...Therefore, for expediency's sake I went directly to that level to obtain control of the airway. Isn't it convenient that the throat wound happened to be precisely where one customarily would electively make an incision for a tracheotomy? Yes, Malcolm Perry certaintly destroyed the evidence of the throat wound—however that wound got there in the first place, which wasn't from a projectile—by electing to make an incision [/b]"right through the wound"[/b]. Whether someone else later "more destroyed" it of course is open to question, but seems extremely unlikely. Either way, there clearly was eradication any useful forensic evidence of that wound forever. Perry had a scalpel in his hand. Perry sliced "right through the wound in the neck." And however badly or mortally or fatally wounded, John F. Kennedy was not dead when he arrived at Parkland Hospital. Ashton

You don't exactly make it easy to reply The facts at issue are the stumbling block you're encountering. And the facts are that Wikipedia is publishing fiction and misrepresenting it as fact. I realize full well just how difficult it is to respond on the facts. That's why the Watergate forum here is pretty much dead as an anvil. The Watergate fiction has been stripped bare in the articles I've provided you links to. The fictions, by the way, were penned by CIA's E. Howard Hunt and G. Gordon Liddy. By his own admission, Liddy actually dictated the purported "logs" that Alfred Baldwin claims to have type "almost verbatim" in real time—which is physically impossible for even an accomplished typist by actual test. That's just one example of the shoddy, absurd pulp spy fiction that your organization shamelessly spreads all over the world as "history." So, no: it isn't easy to reply when trying to defend the indefensible. I feel your pain. There were no "Watergate burglaries" (plural). That's the entire point: There was no "first break-in." Apparently you don't yet comprehend even the most fundamental material fact at issue. I've given you the link now for a second time to the article, with supporting articles linked therein, that prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there was no "first break-in." There's an open invitation in that article, regarding a study of the supporting articles, as follows: That's stood since 17 June 2006 and not one person has had the temerity to attempt it. Would you? I'll happily meet your there if you'd like to drag Wikipedia's version over and attempt to advocate for it. Wikipedia has allowed the very title of the original Troth article to be changed so even the title now is a complete fiction. It's willful deceit. That's all. And that's always indefensible. That's always difficult to answer. The appropriate response from any responsible organization devoted to factual information would be alarm at learning that they were peddling fiction as fact and effective action to get it corrected—not blasé, supercilious one-liners. I expect in response more blasé, supercilious one-liners. Speaking of which: Regarding the Remote Viewing Timeline, you wrote: One man's "due process" apparently is another man's lynch mob. I've seen that page of drooling hysteria, thanks. There isn't a single valid comment anywhere on it, and the timeline was deleted anyway. Not one single event in that timeline ever was documented by any person in that "due process" lynch mob as being in any slightest way false or inaccurate. The article had over 125 cites, far more than 90% of the drek that makes the cut at Wikipedia. Yet your "due process" page has plenty of completely false and unsupported claims that entries in the timeline were false, doesn't it? The Inquisition had a "due process," too. If only Torquemada had been around to take lessons from that page you linked to. Well, lord knows I wouldn't want these trivial matters to keep you a minute from making sure the speckle-breasted titwiller page over there isn't burdened with POV. Ashton Gray

(1) All versions are anyway kept in the Page History (assuming the article was not deleted). (2) I have commented before on the Disclaimer. (3) Any chance of keeping religion out of this? (3) I always put someting on the table I'm willing to take off. And nudge it over kind of close. Look how cleverly you found it! It's off the table. So now what's your responsive reply to the issues of material fact that I raised? Ashton

I'm hoping Mr. Matthews will reply candidly and responsively to the issue of Wikipedia's condoned systematic sabotage of an article created there around the middle of last year, which is covered in the forum topic The Watergate "First Break-In" Dilemma. In that case, a propaganda mechanic calling himself "Beek" appeared very shortly after that article on the alleged "first break-in" at the Watergate had been created in Wikipedia. No article at all on it had existed prior to its creation. "Beek" started industriously and systematically whitewashing the article from its entirely neutral POV to the 100% government approved (and 100% fraudulent) "Official Story." Fortunately, the original article has been entirely preserved here, thanks to the good graces of the Education Forum, in the topic linked to above. With the invaluable information contained therein, it has been proven beyond any reasonable or rational doubt that There was no "first break-in" at the Watergate, yet the last time I checked, Wikipedia had completely reverted the factual and non-POV article to push the CIA-created fiction off on the world as "fact." The same can be said for the Wikipedia "version" of the Pentagon Papers, when it also has been determined beyond any reasonable doubt by sound research that Daniel Ellsberg at all relevant times was a witting agent working in the interests of CIA, and that The "Pentagon Papers" leak was a CIA op. The last I bothered to look, Wikipedia merely peddles the romanticized fiction of a phony martyr, just the way CIA scripted it. In another utterly scandalous case, Wikipedia allowed a lynch mob to eradicate entirely from existence a very thoroughly and well-referenced dispassionate Remote Viewing Timeline that first appeared on Wikipedia when no such factual timeline existed there. Fortunately, this knowledge, too, was rescued from the Wikipedia Censorship Machine and preserved for posterity. The site linked to in this paragraph originally had the full story of Wikipedia's witch-hunt of "Right Think" that attempted to completely erase that invaluable collection of references from the web, and I deeply regretted seeing that they took it down from the top of that page. It was such a brazen case of censorship that a senior editor at Wikipedia had forbidden anyone even to link to that timeline after those people put it up on the web. What possible hubris can justify such a pervasive web presence as Wikipedia to style itself as a purveyor of fact when in some of the most crucial issues of history it stands as nothing but a mouthpiece for federally-funded fictions and the most vicious, unfounded censorship? Whatever "success" Wikipedia and its management enjoy in these despotic attacks on knowledge, I direly hope they all are devout materialists. Then they have nothing to worry about in regard to their souls. Ashton Gray

More information has turned up on "the other Gladys Palmer," the one from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, the one who worked cheek-by-jowl with Allen Dulles's sister Eleanor, the one connected with the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania (and anyone who hasn't gone to that link and studied the alumni list has no idea what they are missing). And this is one of those infuriatingly strange cases where the more one finds out, the less one seems to know. In other words, the "answers" are so thoroughly vague and incomplete that it almost has to be by design, not chance. But the "coincidences" that have turned up in timelining what little is known simply must be added here. Before I post this, though, while I'm not one for gratuitous melodrama, I recommend that if you're reading what follows at night, you leave a light on. Briefly to revisit the bizarre overlaps and overlays that started this thread, concerning two purported predictions of the assassination of John F. Kennedy, both at the same mental health facility at Jackson, Louisiana, both within hours of each other, and how the name "Gladys Palmer" fits in: First, there is the case of Rose Cheramie (or Cherami): Found unconsciousness by the side of the road at Eunice, Louisiana, on 20 or 21 (disputed) November 1963 and taken the state hospital in Jackson, Louisiana—stay tuned. Cheramie told doctors and nurses at the Jackson mental facility that she had been thrown out of a car by two gangsters who worked for Jack Ruby. She claimed that the men were involved in a plot to kill John F. Kennedy. Now compare the story of one Gladys Palmer: Palmer was a resident of Jackson, Louisiana who supposedly had been employed by Jack Ruby in Dallas. On or about 8 November 1963 ("two weeks before the assassination), Palmer reportedly drove herself in a black Lincoln Continental to the state hospital in Jackson, purportedly for "treatment of alcoholism." Then two hours prior to the assassination, on 22 November 1963, Gladys Palmer reportedly said, "This is the day of the President's assassination." But there is this other Gladys Palmer, the Philadelphia Gladys Palmer, that I've now gotten further information on—such as it is—in an exported text timeline format. I'm going to lay this little chronology out here, not in the terse data-data-data format I got it in, but with some comment and exposition of my own, starting with this narrative about the beginnings of the unit Gladys Parker worked in at the Wharton School. So walk with me, if you will, way back in the Wayback Machine, all the way back to 1904. In 1904, the Carniegie Institution funded a little something called the Station for Experimental Evolution at Cold Spring Harbor, New York—on Long Island. By 1910, Averell Harriman's mother paid for the creation of the Eugenics Record Office. Though created as "a branch of the Galton National Laboratory in London," the Eugenics Record Office was hosted in the United States at the Carnegie-funded Station for Experimental Evolution. Coming forward to 1921, we find something called the Industrial Research Department (name later changed to Industrial Research Unit) being created at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania. It was funded in large part by the Carnegie Corporation—the same dirty "angels" of the eugenics movement with a slightly twisted name. The major Research Associates of the Industrial Research Department during this period, some continuing well up into the 50s and 60s, were C. Canby Balderston, Hiram S. Davis, Eleanor L. Dulles (sister of Allen Dulles), Marion Elderton, W. E. Fisher, Miriam Hussey, George W. Taylor—and our own Gladys L. Palmer. She was made director of the department. Without getting into the few details that are known about the apparent "research" being carried out by this group up to and through World War II, it had everything to do with demographics and statistics related to population studies in the workforce, with several books published (which can't account for a tithe of the industry that had to be being expended). Leaping ahead, though, to 1953—after the creation of the CIA and its equally evil twin, Office of Policy Coordination (OPC)—a great deal of curiously related vectors begin to intertwine like vines: c. Tuesday, 20 January 1953 A man named Harold Blauer dies in the New York State Psychiatric Institute of a mescaline derivative, Experimental Agent 1298, that had been given to him first with his reluctant consent, then against his consent. The drugs had been supplied to the psychs in charge through the Department of the Army. The head of CIA at the time is General Walter Bedell Smith—of the U.S. Army. Monday, 9 February 1953 General Walter Bedell Smith, of the U.S. Army, ends his tenure as Director of CIA. Monday, 26 February 1953 Allen Dulles—brother of Eleanor Dulles of the Industrial Research Department at the Wharton School—becomes Director of CIA. Monday, 13 April 1953 CIA Director Allen Dulles authorizes Operation MK-ULTRA, the CIA’s major drug and mind-control program. It is the brainchild of Richard Helms, a high-ranking member of the CIA’s Clandestine Services. Thursday, 16 April 1953 • Lee Harvey Oswald is admitted to "Youth House" in New York City as a truant, and is placed under the jurisdiction and control of psychiatrist Renatus Hartogs for about two weeks. • On the same day, President Dwight Eisenhower delivers his "Chance for Peace" address of April 16, 1953, which is "the opening gun of the post-Stalin phase of the Cold War." The speech has been co-authored by C.D. Jackson—a friend of Allen Dulles (and the publisher of Life magazine, who later buys and suppresses the Zapruder film)—and Walt Rostow. Thursday, 23 April 1953 Charles P. Cabell, still an active Air Force officer, is appointed Deputy Director of CIA under Allen Dulles. c. July 1953 (specific 1953 dates unknown) • The name of the Wharton School's Industrial Research Department (IRD) is changed to Industrial Research Unit (IRU), itself a unit of Wharton's Department of Industry (name later changed to Deparment of Management). Gladys Palmer is appointed as its director. Her unit is provided a grant from the Rockefeller Foundation. • Clemard Joseph Charles is Controller General of Haytian [sic] Southern Banana Industry, and travels to London as a Member of the Economic Mission of the Haytian [sic] Government. [NOTE: George DeMohrenschildt had been in Haiti in 1947, the year that Clemard Joseph Charles had been made Controller General of Haytian Southern Banana Industry.] • CIA operative Thomas James Devine "resigns" to "go into private business." He is a close associate of George H.W. Bush. • George H.W. Bush founds Zapata Oil Company. Sunday, 26 July 1953 Fidel Castro leads 119 rebels in a failed attack on stategically important army barracks in Santiago de Cuba. And less than a month later: Wednesday, 19 August 1953 The CIA's Operation AJAX, masterminded by Allen Dulles and Frank Wisner, succeeds in overthrowing and arresting Prime Minister Mossedegh, who had nationalized Iran's oil industry, and the Shah is set up to run Iran. Tuesday, 1 c. December 1953 The CIA establishes operational headquarters in Miami, Florida to begin the overthrow of Jacobo Arbenz Guzman, President of Guatamala. [NOTE: See entries re: United Fruit.] There are of course many tendrils and offshoots from this tangle circa 1953, but these are some of its trunk vines near the root. And specifically germane to Gladys Palmer of the Wharton School, it is amazing how little can be found of any record of what she and the Industrial Research Unit were engaged in doing from 1953 until...well, I'm afraid until 1963. Most of the following events, for some strange reason, have vague and disputed dates. And here's where to make sure there's a light on: c. early September 1963 (but could be late September) Lee Harvey Oswald purportedly visits the home of Louisiana State Representative Reeves Morgan (who also is said to work as "a guard" at East Louisiana State Hospital, a psychiatric institution, in Jackson, Louisiana), supposedly trying to get work. Oswald then purportedly goes to the State Hospital in Jackson to "apply for a job." c. early October 1963 The Industrial Research Unit of the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania deposits some 200 cubic feet of material—which includes a group of 53 cubic feet specifically marked as "related to the research in price, wages, cost, and employment"—in the University of Pennsylvania Archives. The unit's offices are demolished. [NOTE: There is no known record of what became of Gladys Palmer, except this quoted from one source: "There was no successor for [Gladys] Palmer, who was incapacitated by illness prior to her retirement..." Note also that the specifically referenced 53 cubic feet of materials within the 200 cubic feet of materials supposedly put into the university archives has never been found.] c. early November 1963 A woman named Gladys Palmer allegedly drives herself in a black Lincoln Continental to the State Hospital in Jackson, Louisiana and checks into the hospital "for treatment of alcoholism." [NOTE: As the story later turns out, on 22 November 1963, two hours before the assassination, this Gladys Palmer will tell hospital personnel: "This is the day of the president's assassination." 21 November 1963 A woman name Rose Cheramie (alias) supposedly is brought to the State Hospital in Jackson, Louisiana the night before the assassination, and at some point predicts the murder of John F. Kennedy. c. Wednesday, 1 January 1964 Herbert R. Northrup is named as Wharton School's chairman of the Department of Industry and new director of the Industrial Research Unit, replacing Gladys Palmer—who apparently has been "incapacitated by illness." Nighty-night. Sleep tight. Ashton Gray

In a thread where it was off-topic, Bill Kelly posted the following, directed at me: What you said or didn't say has no bearing whatsoever on a database timeline that a group of people have been doing at their own expense, on their own initiative, in their own time for something like ten years, with invested volunteered man-hours running probably into the tens of thousands. You and everybody else in the world were provided free of all strings, right here in this thread in the very first message, with the exact same database template that they have been using for years for a variety of timelining purposes not directly related to the JFK assassination, but certainly to Watergate (and so to the JFK assassination indirectly by the invidious connections we all know exist). In the JFK Joint Chronology Timeline Project topic you started, I posted the exact fields necessary to convert any other format of timeline/chronology for import into the database template that these people are using, and in every case and opportunity—starting with this thread before you began the JFK Joint Chronology Timeline Project topic—I have urged a coordinated effort to collect and compile existing JFK assassination chronology materials into the kind of complete and reconciled timeline database without which this case will never be solved. Six months ago, when John Simkin was seeking my participation in a project related to the JFK assassination, I said I would be more than happy to participate on any basis, with the one condition that provisions were made for at least a minimal accurate timeline to be done first. Everything went silent. As you well know, I made every good faith effort, through your coordination, to make it possible for the Mary Ferrell foundation to import her chronological materials into this lean, mean database machine, and invested considerable time that I didn't have at the time trying to facilitate that, or, failing their own industry at it, to have them supply ASCII versions of the materials with my promise to find somebody and some way to get that data converted to the necessary date and data formats and imported into that database machine. The line went dead as a hammer. I've said right here in this thread (last message, first forum page) that some acquaintances of mine—who freely supplied the database template in the first place—have turned their attention to devoting their own time, without the slightest compensation, to doing what they can to start to incorporate specific JFK assassination data into their version of the timeline—which already contained over 10,000 entries wholly unrelated to the JFK assassination. Their personal privacy choices happen to be none of your business, and none of my business. Since I first posted the database template, I've a few gotten periodic updates of the populated database with JFK-related entries, but mainly text exports of relevant parts of it germane to JFK assassination, and when and as I can, and as soon as I can, I have posted every bit of it that I felt had probative significance. And you want to complain about that? Well, here's the sure solution I offer to everybody who wants to piss and moan about anything I post: You and your high horse both stop reading my posts. There. That's simple enough, isn't it? Meanwhile, I'll go right on posting what I have available to me that I think is relevant, and I will go right on contributing what I can to their generous efforts, in the hopes that one day—despite the apathy of this "research community" on this particular matter—a comprehensive JFK timeline will be done and can be segregated and exported in full in a variety of formats. And I'll leave you with this little story that some people's mommas should have read them when they were still in diapers: The Little Red Hen The little red hen found a seed. It was a wheat seed. The little red hen said, "Who will plant the seed?" The pig said, "Not I." The cat said, "Not I." The dog said, "Not I." The little red hen said, "I will." And she did. The little red hen said, "Who will cut the wheat?" The pig said, "Not I." The cat said, "Not I." The dog said, "Not I." The little red hen said, "I will then." And she did. The little red hen said, "Who will thresh the wheat?" The pig said, "Not I." The cat said, "Not I." The dog said, "Not I." The little red hen said, "I will then." And she did. The little red hen said, "Who will grind the wheat?" The pig said, "Not I." The cat said, "Not I." The dog said, "Not I." The little red hen said, "I will then." And she did. The little red hen said, "Who will bake the bread?" The pig said, "Not I." The cat said, "Not I." The dog said, "Not I." The little red hen said, "I will then." And she did. The little red hen said, "Who will eat the bread?" The pig said, "I will." The cat said, "I will." The dog said, "I will." The little red hen said, "You shall not eat the bread. I will eat it." And she did. Ashton Gray

John: which of the marks on JFK's back is the bullet hole? Ashton

Well...now what am I going to do with all this popcorn? I just knew we were fundamentally in agreement. I feel exactly the same way. Would you like some of my popcorn? Uhhhhh, yeah. (Without stipulating to the existence of any No-See-Um called "ego," "id," "atavistic reptile brain," or any other psychobabble.) John, let me ask you a question for moment, and I'd appreciate it if you'd give this some long sober consideration before answering: Have you ever seen the slightest indication that I—*I*—have been vying for some kind of popularity? Sheeeeeeeeeesh... I'll second that. Hell, I'll drink to that! So let's stop the tango and get to the truth: on JFK's back, which is the bullet hole and which is the standard Government-Issue rabbit hole? Ashton

Ayup. Of course, in some barbaric locales and settings and circumstances, they refer to such a process as "a jury." Very bizarre concept. Well, I don't know about anybody else, but I got my buttered popcorn and Junior Mints and a big ol' Coke, and keep waiting for the movie to start. When are the previews going to be over? Ashton

Double post hangover.