Cliff Varnell

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And by what alchemy of logic did you arrive at that conclusion? Every conspiracy theory is of a false flag operation? I've never posited the deaths of RFK, MLK or MM as false flag operations -- please leave your own words to your own mouth, okay? The JFK assassination and 9/11 are linked as no two other historical events, as I shall argue going forward. Okay, Thread Cop, write me up and I'll be on my way... Those were the words of the writer of the article. If you actually read Dr. Quintiere's comment he cites the pancake collapse as MORE LIKELY. Hardly the blanket dismissal you suggest. He also says there's been no "official" explanation whatsoever for the fall of WTC 7 -- which is equivalent to the clothing evidence in the JFK assassination. WTC7 and JFK's shirt and jacket are the physical evidence defenders of the Official Faith have to ignore. And it then turned into billowing dust after it buckled? What happened to the three-core structures, Len? They didn't melt. There wasn't a huge pile of weak steel. What happened to the massive steel cores and how did they collapse straight down in free-fall speed? Since the steel didn't melt why was there molten metal burning at Ground Zero for TWO MONTHS afterward? Why did Rudy Guiliani say he had been forewarned of the Towers collapse? There's going to be a new investigation after Bush and Cheney leave office. Sentient Americans will demand it. To make a long story short, you have no Official Explanation for WTC7 -- and the walls of dis-info are coming down, Len, whether you like it or not. The guy is an expert on the impact fire has on steel -- how does that disqualify him? Haluk Akol, Architect & Structural Engineer Lafayette, CA Dennis J. Kollar, P.E., Structural Engineer West Bend, WI

Nice try, Cliff. The JFK assassination was a total success -- including its false false flag aspect. Charles Our degrees of certainty on this score are significantly different, Charles. I qualifed my observation with "very likely." At this point I'm looking for consistencies in the evidence, rather than hard historical conclusions. I take issue with the construction: total success. To so readily dismiss the importance of Havana in black market operations, and the "deep" powers behind those operations, strikes me as unwise. I differ from most here in my assessment of JFK's control of US foreign policy in SE Asia in the fall of 1963. This tape of JFK a few days after the Diem coup tells me of a man who was detached from the decision-making process. http://tapes.millercenter.virginia.edu/cli...nam_memoir.html The White House voice for the coup was Mike Forrestal! Where the Hell was John F. Kennedy in the decision to overthrow Diem? Who called the shots on the Diem coup? Averell Harriman. Who pulled up at the White House minutes after LBJ arrived on Eleven Twenty Two to tell Johnson that the Commies had nothing to do with the assassination? Averell Harriman. Do I think JFK was murdered because of his policies on Vietnam? Perhaps, but I doubt it -- it sure looks to me like Averell Harriman was in control.

Not at all. The JFK assassination was very likely a failed false flag operation; the attacks of 9/11 were a highly successful false flag operation. The American people must insist its foreign policy is never again so hijacked. The added emphasis in the following is mine... Dr. Quintiere scientifically ratifies the controlled-demolition scenario as possible albeit "less likely" than his pancake collapse theory. Others disagree and posit a controlled-demolition as far "more likely." http://patriotsquestion911.com/ Wrong. See above.

The "official story" is falling apart. http://www.opednews.com/articles/genera_al...ief_of_nist.htm Amen.

No, you failed to grasp my drift. In my original statement I equated the price we pay for our freedom to drive and freedom to bear arms with the price we might pay for the 1st, 4th and 6th Amendments. You choose to hype the crack pot fear of nuclear annihilation to a point of absurdity bordering on the egregious. Tim, I've seen this tactic before. You won't answer a single point I've made, and you choose to ignore the answers I've given. We're done here.

Oh, I beg to disagree. If you were SO concerned about your daughter you'd know ALL about the Valerie Plame case and you'd be livid over the flat-out treason of Bush. But as your comments indicate, you know little about the case. Scooter Libby isn't concerned about a nuke-terror attack; you're not really concerned about a nuke-terror attack; and since I mentioned "multiple Nine One Ones" before you introduced this strawman -- I'd have to conclude this whole "nuke terror" scenario is mere rhetorical froth. And every time you take the wheel you potentially threaten my family members. I do not ask you to give up your driving because it "might" possibly lead to a car wreck with my relatives. You haven't convinced me your fear of a nuke-terror attack justifies the loss of rights hard won. That you would trivialize the 1st, 4th, and 6th amendments as mere "protection of library records" indicates to me that you're not really into this "American Experiment" thing. How many car accidents will you tolerate before you forbid people to drive? You're using a transparently hysterical fear to rationalize a revolutionary overthrow of the American Constitution.

Tell me how many Americans have died to preserve our liberties, Tim. Does the blood of America's patriots over 230+ years mean so little to you and your daughter that you'd give it all up for some crack pot fear tactic? Move to another country. Your fear-mongering is hysterical. I only hope your daughter grows up to have sterner stuff.

Google: Brewster Jennings. My point is, Tim, since Bush/Cheney & Co. obviously weren't concerned about the threat of nukes -- why should the rest of us be? Factually incorrect. Robert Novak outed Valerie Plame. His first source was Armitage, but his second source was Karl Rove. Scooter Libby was a busy beaver outing Plame himself. Scooter wasn't worried about his kids being incinerated, why should you, Tim?

There's been a wholesale gutting of the the 1st, 4th and 6th Amendments to the Constitution. http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0928-20.htm http://www.archipelago.org/vol6-2/feingold.htm http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/09/11/this...-like/#comments Let me suggest you save your bogeyman for the rubes and marks among us. Valerie Plame headed an intel operation that sought to prevent the very same scenario you've outlined. That operation was put out of business by the very same prosecutors of your "War On Terror," who outed Ms. Plame for petty political reasons. That act of treason doesn't seem to resonate very well with you, Tim, so your fear of the nuke-terror scenario rings a tad hollow. Besides, the old Soviet arsenal had to be maintained to remain operable, which it wasn't. The whole "suitcase bomb" scenario is right-wing hysteria. What else to expect from a pack of chicken hawks? As Ben Franklin said, those who give up liberty for security deserve neither. I live in the Haight. We're not a blue hood -- we're green. I guarantee my neighbors agree with my assessment. We do not consent to the loss of our rights merely because some of our fellow Americans are cowards. Tell it to the Rev Lennox Yearwood. He got a broken leg for wearing a "I love the people of Iraq" button.

Every year 40,000 or so Americans die from auto accidents. That's the price we pay for living in a free society. Every year 20,000 or so Americans die from gunshot. That's the price we pay for living in a free society. IF (mega-IF) the repeal of the Patriot Act and the Military Commissions Act 2006 lead to multiple Nine One Ones a year -- that is the price any American patriot would pay to live in a free society. Under a democratic President, it won't be Islamic terrorists we'll have to worry about -- it'll be right-wingers like McVeigh and Rudolph. Isn't it sad that the people who get the most uptight when an American flag is burned will cheerlead the burning of our sacred Constitution. Norman the Pod is a traitor working for another traitor -- Rudy Mussolini.

What on earth makes you think bin Laden has the U.S. on the ropes? The amount of sheer hysteria this guy engenders is hilarious! America's resolve is flagging? Since the only area in which "resolve is flagging" is the idiotic enterprise in Iraq, am I to conclude that you (along with Bush) argue that "Iraq is the central front in the War on Terror"? If so, I refer to my prior offer of a position on several local bridges... Bush's policies were self-assured failures. You cannot make a country like you and want to adopt your form of government by invading, occupying, and killing hundreds of thousands. It is the American occupation of Iraq that has lead to public resentment of the U.S. Since when has the U.S. been held responsible for terrorist attacks in other countries? It would? When I was in Germany in 1971 and 1996 there were plenty of Germans who were questioning whether they wanted Americans there in the first place. People don't like foreign troops on their soil, Pat. That's why the Sunnis in Anbar are attacking Al-Qaeda-in-Iraq. Once those guys are taken care of, they'll go back to attacking Americans with the weapons the Americans gave them. Bin Laden is winning the war of ideas? Really. That's funny, I don't see a lot of people clamoring for a 7th Century lifestyle...

Not at all. In March of 2002 Bush said he didn't even think that much about bin Laden, and the gop won big in 2002. The Bush family and the bin Laden family are long-time business partners. Black markets thrive in chaos. Mission accomplished. This is 2007. Bush's political party suffered huge losses in 2006, and stands to suffer bigger losses in 2008. None of which has anything to do with Bush's failure to capture bin Laden. Check the exit polls from 2006 -- how many people voted democratic because Bush failed to capture bin Laden? The issue isn't even on the screen. When bin Laden popped up on video in 2004 Bush's support went UP. Right, and at such time Bush has to rely on his family friend, Osama, to put out not one but two (!) videotapes to give Bush a boost. Pat, surely you must realize that it is the Iraq War, the faltering economy, failing health care system, and republican greed/incompetence which are the sources of the public's disenchantment with all things GOP. For anyone who buys the above: I'm happy to report an excellent business opportunity here in my home town, San Francisco. I have an exclusive position on a couple of bridges you might want to think about purchasing. I highly recommend the orange one...

duped post...on a thread showing people duped!

Not at all. In March of 2002 Bush said he didn't even think that much about bin Laden, and the gop won big in 2002. The Bush family and the bin Laden family are long-time business partners. Black markets thrive in chaos. Mission accomplished.

Great thread! Isn't it interesting that bin Laden always pops up when Bush needs him the most? The Bush presidency was floundering in 2001, until 9/11. In his 2004 video OLB may as well have been wearing a "Kerry for President" button four days before the election, giving the Preznit a crucial boost. Now he pops up just as the Bush Crime Family is rolling out it's fall war product, Surge II. I'm convinced there's a direct line between Dealey Plaza and the Green Zone by way of the Gulf of Tonkin and Ground Zero -- false flag operations designed to facilitate the black markets in weapons, oil, and narcotics. Guns, Oil, Drugs -- the G.O.D. in which they trust. http://www.infowars.com/articles/London_at..._coinciding.htm

When he says, "Open your mouth," you say -- "Open your ring."

America eats its heroes. An order of ruthless Bobby with a side of clueless Big Jim? Pass. Preferring to regard "heroic acts" more than our always-flawed "heroes," I will admit John Lennon is a hero of mine, w/ a side of John Lydon.

...Uh, pardon me? Sloppy sloppy. Prouty and Krulak IDd the gent with the stooped right shoulder, the turned left hand w/class ring photographed with the 3 tramps. http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/USO/appD.html

My comments in burgundy.

1. According to the FBI men at the autopsy, there was a "general feeling" among the prosectors immediately following the autopsy that JFK was hit with blood soluble rounds, a suspicion supported by the neck x-ray and the Zapruder film. This preceded their becoming aware of the Magic Bullet-CE399-Q1, at which point their perceptions became tainted by the political decision in Washington to blame a lone shooter/3-shots. Personally, I go with first day first hand accounts, and I wonder why such are so readily dismissed by so many. 2. The western corner of the TSBD 6th fl may have allowed the Connally shot.

About five years ago on Lancer I discussed Rahn's "Tague Frag Theory" with him. When I pointed out to him that his 3g head-shot fragment had to maintain a straight line trajectory into the teeth of a hard swirling wind, he simply denied that a 20mph wind would have any significant impact on the fragment's velocity or trajectory over a course of 85-yards. And this guy teaches Atmospheric Chemistry? Officer Marrion Baker testified that a strong wind from the north almost knocked him over at the corner of Houston/Elm -- but at the moment of the headshot the strong wind was blowing from the south-west. A couple of times Rahn has pooh-poohed anything I had to say because I'm a poker dealer and not an academic. A fraud and a snob to boot!

The only people capable of pulling that off would be US intel. Welcome aboard, Tim...

Thomas Arthur Vallee: "member of the John Birch Society and a vocal Kennedy critic," Jim Marrs, Crossfire, pg 242. Another possibility: there was a contingency plan to blame an undeniable conspiracy on right wingers -- in case the Castro-did-it scenario and the Lone-nut scenario didn't hold. This might explain why Richard Nixon called Hoover the afternoon of 11/22/63 and asked, "Was it the right wing nuts?" It may also explain why on 11/23/63 one George Bush called the FBI to finger right wing young Republican James Parrott for making threats to kill Kennedy. It may explain why potential patsies like Jack Lawrence and (perhaps) Charles Harrleson were picked up the afternoon of the assassination. In this view, picking up Vallee in Chicago and getting Joseph Milteer on tape could be spotlighted post-assassination to buttress this contingency.

Allow me to put a finer point on it -- in order for JFK's policies of detente with the Communist world to succeed, he and his brother would had to have overthrown the "Shadow Government."