Chris Davidson

Hi Don, Here it is at full size. The previous version I reduced as a screen shot, to get more of the plat on the screen. BTW, the digital Drommer plat I'm using is 66.847 x 49.569 inches. As far as I know , this is the standard one that most other's are using. thanks, chris

Math2 topic should clinch it. chris

My original Math topic tried to supply everyone with an easy concept of speed and distance manipulation by the WC. Applying this to the film is next. Tom, thank you for your valuable input. Without the ORIGINAL information you have provided from Robert West, and your research, putting this part together may have never evolved. I've always held onto the belief that Zapruder (if it was him) was a better cameraman than what we see in the extant Zfilm. He was, and frame 356 among others, shows that. When I took my footage from the pedestal, the curb angle at approx Z313 is 3.9 degrees.(notice the X mark in the street for location purposes). I'm pretty sure somewhere in the WC volume's, this coincides with the Elm St grade too. In Zframe 356, take a very good look inside the red squares, the area lands on Clint's back, which is the ghost image area. I took my footage and superimposed the curbline which would be near 313 in the extant Zfilm, over the ghost image curbline in Z356. Yes, that area on Clint's back is from top to bottom: grass, grass edge, curb and street. If you have problems with that, just look to the right in the full frame and do a sync of those 4 items. The angle matches, the 4 items match, the curbline does not. In fact, there should be no curbline in the ghost image area at that point. It's indicative of a location some 30ft farther up Elm St.(Read the Math topic for more insight.) cheers, chris

1. Those survey notes are from the SS Survey in which vertical (elevation) control was first carried into Dealey Plaza. 2. The "C" is in fact "C""L", meaning Center Line. 3. I would have to go back to all of the survey notes to firmly establish "Station C". Tom 1. There was no "Station C" surveyed in by Mr. West. 2. The purpose of "Station A" appears to have been an attempt to stay away from the established survey stationing number which Mr. West had established during the SS Survey and re-enactment of December 1963. 3. Positions farther down Elm St. were established first, and since he had no other means of reference, Mr. West utilized the survey stationing of the Secret Service as his "reference point" for this work. He thereafter continuted to do so when he established "Position/Frame A", which is located at street elevation 428.70 4. Survey centerline stationing 2+75 is located at street elevation 428.80, which is in the approximate center of the street, whereas "Position/Frame A" is located off to the right lane of Elm St. 5. The survey elevation 428.94 (secret service)/99.5 (drommer) is the same location, and represents the TOP of the concrete street curb in that location. 6. This location is defined by extending a straight line off the building wall on the east side of Houston St. (at the point marked on the drommer plat with an elevation of 100.5), down Elm St. At the point at which this line intersects a 90-degree line running to the center of the south curb at the distance of 14.6 feet, is the location for the elevation 428.4(SS)/99.5 (drommer). 7. Straight out into Elm St. from this location is survey stationing 2+77 on the SS/FBI/as well as WC Survey Plats. Tom, Make's perfect sense. Looks like the WC killed multiple birds with 1 stone, around the Elm St. turn. Once again, a headshot 30ft farther down Elm than the 313 headshot. How do they hide it in distance? Move that particular starting point back 30ft to the corner of the TSBD. Align JFK with the TSBD corner in Towner by film splice for syncing, and bingo, the Altgens adjustment has been made. Incorporate two headshots, both made to arrive at 4+65(2 scenarios), but the audience knows of the film version only. chris

It always helps to break down those compound ideas. See document below!!! For instance: 1. Based on these films. I was under the impression there was only 1 Zfilm. 1. The limo was traveling 11.2 mph 2.The limo traveled 186 feet in 152 frames. 2.152/18.3=8.3 sec. 2.186ft/8.3sec=22.4ft per sec 2.22.4ft per sec=15.2 mph 3.Yes, 136ft/8.3 sec =11.2mph. Now, referring back to #2: If you add the 4+ft. that was shorted from frame 161-166 to the listed 186 ft, this =190ft. 190 ft is the distance between frame100 which is (station no. 2+75) and frame 313(station no. 4+65). But now the total frame span for distance traveled increases from 152 to 213 creating a limo speed of 11.11 mph. Two scenarios (11+15mph) integrated into 1 result. chris

When I did the original speed calculation for 11mph and 15 mph, I transposed the tenth's and hundreth's places. By doing that it left a difference of 6.1 ft per sec. Which, when plugged back into the equation gave me a 44ft distance. The correct difference was 5.88ft per sec , and when plugged back in gave me a 42.4 ft distance. The difference from elevation 428.94 to the end of the Drommer plat is : Well, here's a picture of it. chris P.S. Tom, as you stated before, whoever created Drommer was told exactly what to do. Nothing independent about it. chris

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=4272&relPageId=29 What was actually surveyed in was Z168. CE884 was changed to make it appear as if Z161 was what was surveyed in. I will get back to you on "Station C" as soon as I dig out the survey notes & the full sized copy of the WC Survey Plat. Which, by the way, clearly shows "Station "A"" marked on it. http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0464a.htm That "first line" as drawn from the sixth floor window of the TSDB to Elm St., goes to "STATION A", which portion of the WC Survey Plat I long ago posted here. Thanks Tom, The 40ft difference threw me off for a while, as the original distance from Station C to Position A was stated as 44ft. But on CE884, between frame 161 and 166 there is a distance of approx 1ft traveled. (An adjustment no where close to a steady 11 mph). Since Spector was keeping the speed consistent, I looked for a distance traveled among 2 other sets of frames 5 apart. The difference between frame 235 and 240 is 5.5ft. A difference of 4.5ft. Added back to the 40ft =44.5ft, which gets us back closely to the original 44ft mark. chris

How did you get your 1 inch equals 10 foot scale? Craig, It's on the Drommer plat. Here is a snapshot of it. chris

Now take a look at frame 161 . The recreation numbers say it is 94.7 ft to station C. When added to the real station C distance this equals 3+69. If you look at the chart, Spector has frame 161 at 3+29. That is a difference of 40ft approx. Limo's in the same spot, distances are incorrect. Beginning to get the picture. chris

Towner=168 total frames/18.3 fps=9.18 sec. Zfilm=132 frames/18.3 fps=7.21sec. A difference of approx 2 seconds. chris

I could never figure out the reason for the splice in Towner. Now it's rather obvious. Where is JFK in relation to the corner of the TSBD after the splice? Looks like a timing marker splice to me. chris

If I move 30ft farther up Elm than my 428.94 elevation point, I land approx at the corner of the TSBD. Each vertical blue line(1 inch apart) represents 10ft increments. chris

I'll now introduce this WC exhibit. This would indicate a final shot at station number 4+96 or approx 30ft farther down Elm than the 313 head shot. chris

That creates an obvious problem. How can Position A be frame 149, when the first frame we see the limo in, is 133. Position A is supposed to be higher up Elm than Zframe 133, yet the pictures tell a different story. chris

The elevation numbers on the right side are converted to represent what's on the leftside, which included the WC adjusted JFK height difference. Keeping the relationship between frame number, station number and elevation number the same, in this scenario, elevation 428.94 would be frame 100, while Position A would be frame 149. chris

If you take a look at Drommer, you can plot 428.94 on the plat. It should be right about here. chris

It looks like the original Station C was at an elevation of 428.80. I believe Spector would later use 428.94, the Horizontal Control Point as his calculation guide. (Revised chart coming) Of course, I do not utilize the Bullsh!! correction factor formula he used in the recreation process. chris

At what point does Car2 (15mph) catch Car1 (11mph and 42.4ft ahead) if they start at the same time. 15 mph=22.05ft per sec x 7.21sec (132frames/18.3sec)=158.98ft 11mph =16.17 ft per sec x7.21sec (132frames/18.3sec)=116.58ft+42.4ft=158.98ft. What is the first numbered frame the WC uses for measurements? Answer: 161 chris

That description of Station C was pretty ugly. Along with Position A, it might be difficult to get some exact measurements. But that will come in time. For now, here's a piece from Drommer giving you an idea of Station C and Position A's approx relationship to each other. This from deciphering Shaneyfelt's testimony. chris

My next question would be: Where is Station C located? WC testimony establishing Station C. chris

First formula is: 11mph=16.17ft per sec approx. 15mph=22.05ft per sec approx. A difference of 5.88ft per sec approx. 132frames before the limo appears/18.3fps= 7.21sec 7.21sec x 5.88ft per sec = 42.4ft. chris P.S. All information has been passed on to others as a safety measure. SORRY FOLKS. I ENTERED THE WRONG FIGURES IN MY INITIAL POST. THE NEW ONES ARE IN BOLD. THEY DO NOT HAVE TO BE EXACT TO GET THE POINT ACROSS, EVENTUALLY.

I proposed the idea that Rather having said he saw 'FILMS' - that he may have seen the Hughes film ... after all, how many other films showed the car turning onto Elm Street. No shots were reported fired until after the limo was gliding down Elm Street, and the Towner film shows a pretty uneventful turn onto Elm Street, so supposed you offer a logical reason why anyone would need to remove the limo turn onto Elm Street from the Zapruder film. It certainly cannot be to keep from ID'ing anyone for the films resolution isn't that sharp, so let us hear your working theory ... you certainly must have one before proclaiming an alteration took place, so share it with us. Let me ask you something .... what did you think of Zavada's presentation last Fall in Dallas concerning the impossibility that the Zapruder film was altered? I'm thinking you didn't see it?? Also, what have you done to seek out an expert who would examine the Zapruder film at the NARA and could you furnish this forum with your written request to the NARA to have it done? The reason why these questions are important is because I have heard the same complaints from people like yourself and Healy who haven't educated yourselves as to why Zavada is wrong about the Zapruder film not being altered, nor have you offered the name of anyone even close to the man's expertise who is willing to do the same. It seems to me that if you were serious about all this, then you would put in motion some sort of effort to get the job done ... yet you have not. Is it because you do not know how to find the address of the NARA? Can you explain yourself? Bill Miller Bill, The Towner splice and Zfilm Elm St. turn have nothing to do with people identification. They have everything to do with math. A new topic I will soon start. chris

Yes but! You are attempting to extrapolate Z-frame numbers based on an "assumed" vehicle speed that is in fact inaccurate. The Presidential Limo most assuredly began to slow down, and especially so just prior to and after the headshot at Z313. Tom, I Understand. I tried to create a baseline difference between fact and fiction, pertaining to the newspaper article. Your exact numbers are a big help. For instance: The article says 170ft in the throat. It's changed to a more exact 175ft. 175ft=frame207 according to the WC. The purported impact point of the second shot impact on Elm St. is marked "P" on the survey plat. (187 feet slant distance from window to pavement)=frame220 approx according to the WC. Throat shot =187ft=frame220 refer back to chart. Difference between newspaper article description and WC version =approx 220-207=13 frames. Tom, I believe you arrived at frame 354 for the Altgen's shot. I used a frame per foot formula initially, which is 12.25mph. This put the final shot at Zfilm 342/343 You apply the limo slow down calculation, as I apply the 13 frame difference. 220+122+13=Frame 355 chris P.S. I wonder what confused the reporter? The Stemmon's sign rears it's ugly head. Once again, something tells me the reporter was viewing an original.

Pat, At approx 39 minutes into the interview, Blaine describes Clint's incredible feat. It goes like this: The limo was going 11mph. There was 85 feet for Clint to catch up to.Clint ran about 15 mph to catch up, but got there after the 3rd shot. The WC has the limo traveling 10.51 mph between frames 255-313. That is 15.44 ft. per sec. 15 mph=22.05 ft. per sec. So, in order for Clint to catch the limo at some 85 feet back, it will take him approx 13 seconds to do so. Since Clint is still on the Queen Mary in Altgen's at 255, when does he start his incredible dash toward the limo? chris

Thanks Tom, Keep it coming!!! 5. The purported impact point of the second shot impact on Elm St. is marked "P" on the survey plat. (187 feet slant distance from window to pavement) This would place a shot at approx Zframe 220. Throat shot. Referring back to the article, 74+48 =122 frames after the throat shot = a shot hits the president's head. 220+122=frame342. (4+65)=frame313 1 frame per foot=12.25mph (4+95)=30 ft farther down the road= approx 30 frames frame 313+30 frames=frame343 The shot near Altgen's? Approx Frame342/343. chris