Chris Davidson

Hi Duncan Is this the thread. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=16847&st=40 Dorman frame showing part of the Limo and follow up car during the turn. Dorman frame showing the distance from the south side curb to the motorcycles. Chris / Martin It would be interesting exersise to try to overlay the Dorman frame showing the Limo & follow up car onto a scaled overhead of the Dealey plaza corner. Note the motorcycle is siiting next to the white road stripe ! Robin, I don't believe we have a true overhead of this corner to work with. Do you have something particular in mind? chris

Maybe you had received an answer to your question, but didn't catch it. You can post your image again or link it because I am not interested in wasting lots of time with it. I do know that it was not uncommon for newspapers to airbrush photos so to sharpen them up where ever possible. I would have to see your images again, feel free to post a link to them or repost them again. Bill Bill, The detail in the flag between the red arrows. As I asked previously, if someone has a non-newspaper copy of Altgen's with this detail, I'm all ears. It does not exist in any of the best copies that have been submitted so far. chris Chris: If you watch my presentation in Minnesota (on you-tube) you will see that there were several versions of Altgen's 6. Doug Weldon Thanks Doug, I will take a look at your presentation. If you are in possession of several Altgen's 6 copies, can you state whether any of them hold the same detail as the one I have provided? That's non-newspaper versions of course. chris

This details the problem with using repro images to judge photo quality, too many unknowns to make a firm conclusion. In your example of the z frames in Life yes they do look different but why? Is the original film different? Where there differences in the quality of the dupe photos from the original frames? Were the sep films shot differently? Did the guys at the film stripping table get the the one page slighlty out of register? Where the forms on which each page was placed tun on a different press? On a different day? By a different pressman? Was a printing plate out of register? Did they make adjustments to the color fountains to compensate for an ad images that ran just above or below the z frames on the form? Did they use makeready pages in bindery, made while getting the press "up to color"? I know you do prepress, were you around pre-digital? When sep films were made in a process camera and films cut and pasted, by color layer, by guys using razor blades and red litho tape? Lots of silly things happened in this workflow. Heck even today with current tech and the best presses and pressmen around its still a crapshoot when you have the same image span two pages and jump the gutter. Getting both halfs to match is nutty. I have piles of examples of the same image in a brochure looking different from one page to the next. Craig, Thank you for acknowledging there is a difference. I agree with the variables you list in regards to the reproduction process. But, there is a distinct quality difference in the Life pages. All frames but 230 on pgs 40-41 are out of focus. All frames on pg 42 are in focus, matching frame 230. Past the Stemmon's sign and the quality frames appear. In the case of the Altgen's newspaper photo, the detail is there. It's in the flag, the TSBD wall, the limo visors, etc, etc. The limo is basically the closest object to Altgen's, the original or anything close should provide at least this same level of detail in a non-newspaper form. I keep hearing a reference to Thompson's best print, but I'll bet the detail doesn't match the newspaper edition. If it did, we would have seen it by now. chris

I personally wouldn't waste time on obviously altered Newspaper prints. The one above has had the rear view mirror mount removed and I am certain that JFK didn't have such a narrow head ... just to name a few obvious alterations/air brush attempts. The clearest Altgens 6 print I have seen is the print Josiah Thompson posted long ago ... that would be the print that doesn't show JFK's head as narrow as most pan fish. If a newspaper print shows more detail in the flag than Josiah's print, then it has been retouched, especially when other signs of retouching are seen. So someone actually took time to add that detail to the logo on the flag. O.K. !!!! I guess detail was added to the stonework of the TSBD, in the upper right side of the photo, too. Or, maybe the newspaper version is a copy from a better generation Altgen's, than what is available, regardless of what doctoring/airbrushing/ etc,etc was done to the original. chris

Robert, If your Altgen's print is the best available, I would expect it too show this detail (between the red arrows) on the flag. What I supplied is from a newspaper 11-23-63. A quality non-newspaper print of an original Altgen's 6 should show this detail. chris

Maybe you had received an answer to your question, but didn't catch it. You can post your image again or link it because I am not interested in wasting lots of time with it. I do know that it was not uncommon for newspapers to airbrush photos so to sharpen them up where ever possible. I would have to see your images again, feel free to post a link to them or repost them again. Bill Bill, The detail in the flag between the red arrows. As I asked previously, if someone has a non-newspaper copy of Altgen's with this detail, I'm all ears. It does not exist in any of the best copies that have been submitted so far. chris

Are you sure you aren't talking about the back cover of MAD Magazine ...... Bill, Do you even understand the point? Or, did this one go over your head, just as the Altgen's flag logo did. Instead of a snide comment, why not comment on the Life magazine frame differences. Or, do you not see a difference between pages. My wife saw it immediately and she has no interest in this case at all. chris What exactly is it you are seeing Chris? Craig, There is a sharpness and clarity difference among the 2 pages. Bill, I never did receive an answer to my question about the detail in the flag logo. Not from you nor anyone else. Once again, I'm waiting for anyone to supply a non-newspaper copy of Altgen's 6, which possesses the same detail in the limo flag, which the San Francisco Chronicle printed on 11-23-63. It's not a difficult request if other versions previously supplied are even close to the original. chris

Are you sure you aren't talking about the back cover of MAD Magazine ...... Bill, Do you even understand the point? Or, did this one go over your head, just as the Altgen's flag logo did. Instead of a snide comment, why not comment on the Life magazine frame differences. Or, do you not see a difference between pages. My wife saw it immediately and she has no interest in this case at all. chris

In that third floor window, the blinds are all the way down, so to be able to fire a rifle from there while remaining out of view, it was necessary to cut out an opening in the blinds. In the Altgens photo we see the white outlines of the cords which hold the blinds together. It is very clear, that the cord on the left side has been cut, causing a gap and the top and bottom of that cord to be out of alignment with one another. I also created a video recently, on that subject. First Shot Hi Robert, Once again, I'll state the quality of the Altgen's photo used to form your opinion is questionable. If you want to argue your point, provide a Altgen's photo with more detail, such as the 1st floor of the DalTex building. chris

Bill, If Thompson's print was so clear, how did it miss the detail in the limo's flag? Which would be a lot closer to Altgen's, than the doorway of the TSBD. chris

Hi Duncan, I think if one has the opportunity to look at the Nov25, 1966 edition of Life Magazine, they do so. I recommend they look at Page 40-41 which comprises Z frames 193,206 and 222-231. Then turn to Page 42 and flip back and forth between the two pages, looking at the overall frames on each page. If it doesn't hit you, bend page 42 in half and compare "side by side" with page 40. You'll know what my answer to your question is. chris

David, In regards to the Darnell video. It might be more interesting to know if the figure that appears, at the end of this segment, is inside or behind the pergola. chris P.S. I vote behind.

Thank you Duncan Thanks Martin / Chris Very nice work as always. Chris In your Bronson GIF i noticed two things. (1)- the Toni Foster "side step" as can be seen in the nix frames. (2)- something happening in the East pergola area,just near the Hesters looks like a man walking out of the left side of the pergola, possible Charles Hester on the move ? Click on Attachment: Thanks Robin, I'm a little more interested in the red box and surrounding area. That looks like the guy in Z. Should we also see at least one of the three down closer to the street? Altgen's being one of them. chris P.S. I believe Martin has it correct in that, it is a newspaper reflection, which is held by Beatrice Hester. If that is the area you are describing.

David, I think I can tell you when Babushka stopped filming or took her last picture. Watch those arms drop. I like the lady in pink, she's frozen in time. chris

Robert, Notice some detail missing from the flag in your photo? chris

Yet another prime example of not having the largest and best images available. After all these years and research how is it we do not have a repository of the very best images for analysis? with free FTP clients all over, file size should no longer matter. soapbox sermon over..... DJ David, There are images available, the problem is, they are not the originals and possibly, not close to original. I've already introduced a version of Altgen's 6 with detail on the limo flag, printed in the SF Chronicle on 11-23-1963. That's a newspaper. I have never come across, nor seen, another version with this detail. To me, that means, the version that is being used to distinguish broken glass,blinds, boxes or what have you, is not the best of quality. Someone needs to supply a nice clean, early generational copy of Altgen's 6, then we can move forward. chris

Robert, What is the angle of JFK's right arm in Towner? What is the angle of his arm in the previous frame I posted, which by the way, was the end of a waving sequence. Here's another part of a video for you, so you can be sure I'm taking this footage from a waving motion. chris

Chris, I believe there may be a couple things you are overlooking. First, notice that JFK begins to close his hand while it is still at its peak height. I can see that happening after his hand is brought down, but not in the midst of waving. More importantly, while it may be perfectly normal for you to ball your hand into a fist as you are waving, it was not at all normal for JFK. In fact, looking at him waving numerous times in the DCA (Dallas Cinema Associates) movies, I never see him ball his hand into a fist at any time - before, during or after waving. And then there is that falling to the left, which I seriously doubt is what you do. JFK's reactions during the Towner film were unique Chris and unlike anything he had ever done before. He was reacting to a gunshot then. Chris, please address the issues I raised. Why didn't JFK EVER ball his hand into a fist either during or after waving? And why did he begin to make that fist before he had even begun to lower his hand? Do you honestly believe that his reactions during the Towner film was like anything he had ever done before??? Robert, Once again, the point involving the fist is subjective. I can only show comparisons. I'll leave it up to others to decide whether a distinction can be made. You are trying to convince me with footage from Towner, that is less than desirable. Even if the footage was conclusive (it's not), how do you know what a fist signify's? The point of these photo's is not to disprove, it's to show that his waving and succeeding actions took many different forms. Why not concentrate on something more concrete/provable. chris

David, Roy Truly goes into specific detail about the wide turn. He was standing in front of the TSBD. Here is his testimony. chris

Bill, Not sure Connally remembered everything in the correct sequence. The Chaney article is from the Houston Chronicle 11-24-63. chris

Robert,, I also created an abbreviated version of Towner with the background stabilized, taking Tina's camera movement away. If interested, I suggest downloading this. And playing it frame by frame, continuously. It is about 30 megs in size. Martin, another one for you, as well as others. Pretty sure the footage is from " Beyond The Magic Bullet. chris http://98.155.3.209:8400/0C215/TOWNER.mov

Robert, In regards to the Towner film. I have created a video looping back and forth for you. When JFK stops waving and starts to put his hand down, he also starts the closing of it. I believe this is pretty much normal for most people to do, especially when the elbow is more than likely supported by an object. In fact, sitting at my desk with my elbow on it, imitating a waving motion then terminating the wave, the most natural motion for me, is to start closing my wave into a gradual fist, while lowering it. I would say this is subjective at best. chris http://98.155.3.209:8400/99823/Towner.mov

The question is not why do I complain about people who deliberately lie and harass legitimate researchers. The question is why does everyone else remain silent? Robert, The topic is too subjective. I recommend watching two videos if you haven't already, for footage of the motorcade. 1. JFK: The Lost Tapes 2.JFK: 3 Shots That Changed America I could easily say JFK is wiping sweat from his face as the motorcade proceeds. Right or wrong? Who knows!!! chris

The retouched remark I made had to do with the obvious windshield view differences. The flag was constantly waving and seen at different angles depending on which source one is looking at ... this would explain its design shape changes. Bill I assume Chris is refering too the slight difference in the "circle on the flag" as seen between different newspaper versions of Altgens 6 The flag waving doesn't come into the equation. Willis 2 crop showing the FULL CIRCLE This is only seen in the better quality newspaper image, the unbroken circle does NOT appear in the poor quality newspaper copy, or in my Corbis copy. ? I think Chris's question is, what does the Altgens negative show. A broken circle on the flag, OR a complete circle as seen in Willis 2 Thank you Robin for breaking it down into simplified terms. Apple to Apple comparisons. chris

Details!!!! chris