Chris Davidson

The amount of people still on the corner might indicate a time earlier than 12:43. Anyhow, window positions for comparison with Murray photo. chris

Thanks Chris. Great frame ! I can't help noticing how much "darker" the womans sweater looks in that frame compared to Darnell. I have seen some of that footage before somewhere, but never with such clarity. Great stuff, and "good eyes" do you have any more frames in that quality which you could email me. Robin. Robin, You can download the movie clip here: http://76.89.77.141:8400/5A4E1/1.mov I tried sending you an email but got a rejection notice. Might be an old address. chris

Robin, Frame is from video footage in "Beyond the Magic Bullet" at 21 min/33 sec. Note center frame. It was filmed through a car windshield. chris

No Pull Down Frames. Not Enlarged. I believe I did lighten the shadow areas. Wall is somewhat stabilized, from what I remember. Better copies always welcome. chris

Part of email from Gary Mack: "I just stood outside on the northwest corner of Elm & Houston and sighted directly back to Bell’s location through Brennan’s spot on the wall. There is no discrepancy, Chris, just your inability to understand the spatial differences from the two photographer locations. It’s the same problem you’ve had with other of your alteration claims and why I keep teasing you about keeping your day job." Gary, You are CORRECT. I am WRONG. I finally came up with a photo comparison that gave me a better perspective. I'd been searching the past couple of days but didn't find anything of value, until this one. The pursuit continues!!! chris

Bell and Dorman movies stabilized and the composite photo again. Notice the movement of Railroad Man in each. I would say his movements appear to match, using the blue dress woman (in front of Rosemary) as a timing marker. How can Bell be on the low side of Railroad Man, who is on the low side of Brennan (see Dorman Film), while Railroad Man ends up on the high side of Brennan in Bell's movie. Impossible!!! One other point. The wall is either concave or convex, depending on what side you are viewing it from. From Bell's movie, is the shape concave or convex? chris

Go into it all you want, David ... each time you do you end up covered in doo-doo! Info received from the Gary Mack ... "The Bell and Dorman frames do not match because they are 1.25-1.5 seconds apart in time (Bell is earlier) and some bystander movement is to be expected. The overhanging tree branch is in shadow because another tree and/or branch is casting a shadow upon it. The Dorman camera was not “zoomed in” because it did not have a zoom lens. The cheap Brownie camera (which is in the Museum’s collection) had a poor lens that could not resolve the subtle changes within the concrete areas not exposed to full sunlight. The film was underexposed and was the grainy, inferior 3M brand, not Kodachrome II like everyone else used (except Towner)" Bill Miller If you want to believe these frame comparison's from Myer's are 20-24 frames apart, go ahead, but I would beg to differ. Rosemary Willis's position tells a much different story. So either Myer's sync is wrong and all of his film sync's are wrong, or Gary's wrong and we need to find at least 1.25-1.5 seconds of extra film. Let's see: Towner at 16-18 FPS or Towner at 23 FPS. I think that would include some extra film footage. chris

Thanks Robin. Here's a rough composite showing Bell's position within the Dorman composite. Once again, Brennan is higher up Elm than RRman, according to the expansion joint in the sidewalk. This is not what is depicted in Bell's movie. Jack, Took the horizontal flip and inserted it to fit. chris

Looking for those holes!!!!! chris

Jack, That is correct. You have simplified what I tried to explain in my other topic. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...st&p=156011 Brennan and RRman are in the wrong positions when comparing Bell and Dorman's films. Supplied is Bell's filming position. Also, if the sun is behind Bell, how can the tree branches be in shadow? chris

As in certain shadow conditions plus bad camera and angle obscuring the holes detail? Sure sounds reasonable to me Kathy...what do you think Chris? Dorman camera was zoomed in. Holes should be HUGE, regardless. Rosemary's shadow points where?. Is there sun coming through the visable holes? Rosemary is where in relation to the non visable holes? chris

Denis, Let me put any doubts to rest. chris

Denis, Take a look at the Bell frame from post 1. That's a backside view of the wall. chris

The background photo is a frame from the documentary "Murder in Dealy Plaza". It was filmed from Dorman's location in a recreation. The inset is a frame from Dorman's movie. Registering the two frames with the wall in alignment should give you a better understanding of the alterationist "holes in the wall fiasco". Since it was a nice SUNNY day with the sun behind Rosemary Willis, I see no reason why those wall holes do not appear next to her. Even in the recreation documentary, on what looks like a cloudy day, the wall holes are visable. chris

The red arrow points to the same gentleman ON the wall from Dorman and Bell. Look at the holes in the wall in each photo, in relation to the gentleman on the wall. Or in this case, the holes NOT in the wall That's the easiest proof of alteration I can supply. chris

Chris, Your Bell GIF ends one or two seconds before the Dorman frame, so no, they don’t match. Once you get them lined up properly, everything will match. As for your other question about the two cameras views not matching, the simple answer is that they were machined differently, which is why most projectors in those days had a Frame adjustment to compensate. Gary Mack Gary, Bell is northwest of conductor man and wall-man. Or, as he faces them, Bell is on their left side. Wall-man is on conductor man's left side in Bell. In Dorman, conductor man is farther downhill. You can use the sidewalk expansion joint/crack (red arrows) as the marker. If I'm Bell and conductor man is farther downhill than wall-man is, then conductor man should be on the left side of wall-man in Bell. In other words, if I'm Bell and I was filming directly behind wall-man, conductor man should appear on the left of him, which will match what is shown in Dorman. The Bell gif and Dorman frame from the previous post comparison do match, if you use the LADY in front of Rosemary Willis as your marker in both mediums. In fact, if what you are saying was valid, we should see conductor man waving in Bell, which would match my previous shadow gif posting of conductor man from Dorman. We don't, and there is a reason. This just adds more support to the Towner camera filming at it's true capability of 16-18 FPS and not the Myer's sync of 23-24 FPS, which eliminates 2-3 seconds of time. It's why the waving shadow motion of conductor man is too fast. It's why the Willis reflection is wrong. It's why the lady in orange from Z doesn't sync. It's why the speed of the limo according to the WC math and the Z film don't match. Remember frames 161-166 and the distance traveled. Not to difficult to figure out. Not sure what you are referring to with regards to the camera angles. If you are speaking to the Dorman/Z frame comparison, what does that have to do with 8mm film and the relationship of sprocketholes to main frame? chris

Don, Something similar to this view, I believe. chris

Since I've been discussing reflections, and shadows would be a similar interest, perhaps you can test this on a sunny day for yourself. Can I have my arm extended, waving to the president and within 1/3 of a second have my arms crossed again? (Bottom Right) Would my arm shadow appear circular as I bring it in to a folding position? Follow the waving shadow. Then, if you come to the conclusion that you can, ask yourself how 2 (8mm) films can have sprocket holes and frame width's that match, yet the vertical image within the frames do not. chris

Got it Lee. Here's Muchmore again using a more universal encoder, but more image degradation. If your using Quicktime try viewing it at twice the size, also. chris P.S. Looks like you have a fairly nice copy of Hughes to work from.

Don/Lee Too bad the quality of the films (as usual) suck. I created this stabilization of the County Records Building from Muchmore awhile back. Did it with Hughes also, but the angle cuts down alot of the movement. chris

More. chris

Some more. chris

I can't get the movies to play Chris. I keep getting a " Quicktime requires new software error " Thanks Anyway Duncan Duncan, Does this work for you? Less quality. chris

If it helps. chris

Fence stabilized, if it helps. chris