Duane Daman

A simple construction that Bush the Unelected's role model might appreciate:

Until the life of the terrorist is valued as highly as the life of the terrorized, the terror will continue.

Charles

Man do you EVER have it backwards...

Until the TERRORIST learns to value his OWN life as well as the lives of his victims, the terror will continue.

Man do you EVER have it backwards ...

The REAL terrorists value their own lives very highly ... It's the lives of their victims that they obviously don't give a crap about .

Well said, Duane. Some don't know who the real terrorists are.

Mark .... I do believe I just found a few of the real terrorists ...

Oh and since you claim some grand governmental coverup, where is your proof?

" Everytime that idiot opens his stupid mouth I'm afraid he's gonna blow our 9/11 cover-up . "

There is also good reason for the government not to divulge the names of the people who bought the put options; I assume that unless they have enough information to indict them for a crime that would be considered personal information.

There is also good reason for government criminals not to implicate themselves in this crime ....I would assume that they never intend to divulge the names of any of the inside traders , for obvious reasons .

Why not name name Lenkin? Yes the sums ARE paltry in todays world. As to those who have not claimed the money, has it ever passed through the minds of the 'truthers' that those who placed these wagers are in fact the sects of radical Islam who planned and carried out the attacks? Maybe not as it goes against the truther 'worldview'

$ 10 to $ 15 million is "paltry in today's world " ?? .. What planet do you live on ?

If the inside traders were "in fact sects of radical Islam" , then why doesn't the US government conduct a proper investigation into this theory and expose these alleged Islam radicals bad guys ? .... Doesn't it seem as if the government knows very well who the inside traders might be and are conducting a cover-up instead of a proper investigation ? ... Maybe not as it goes against the sheeple 'worldview'.

IF Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and their puppetmasters can ever be FOUND GUILTY OF

PERPETRATING THE 911 ATROCITY, ARE YOU IN FAVOR OF ADMINISTERING THE

DEATH PENALTY? Some say it would wreck our nation if the president were sentenced

to death. I think it would make us respectable again.

Jack

Jack ... First of all , none of these men are ever going to be found guilty of anything because there will NEVER be an official inquiry that isn't a rigged cover-up .

Second of all , if by any wild stretch of the imagination they were to ever be found guilty of the 9/11 attacks , I believe that impeachment , trials for crimes of high treason against the citizens of the United states , and then life in prison would be the thing to do , as enough people have died already .

Third of all , I don't believe that America will ever be respected again ... Not even by many of it's own citizens .

Ah Len, slippery as ever.

... Yep, as slippery as they come .

Duane seems pretty obviously to have meant what wrote not your spin on it

What I wrote was an an answer to Mark's question about there never being an investigation into the inside trading and put options ( ie: the money trail ) ... Not your spin on it .

I only mentioned it to show that no matter how you interpret Duane’s absurd remark it was wrong. The claims of insider trading fall flat based on info in the public domain.

Len ... I would say that based on this article which is a link off of one of the links you posted , that it would be your remarks which are absurd .

...........................................................

Suspicious profits sit uncollected

Airline investors seem to be lying low

Investors have yet to collect more than $2.5 million in profits they made trading options in the stock of United Airlines before the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, according to a source familiar with the trades and market data.

The uncollected money raises suspicions that the investors -- whose identities and nationalities have not been made public -- had advance knowledge of the strikes.

"Usually, if someone has a windfall like that, you take the money and run," said the source, who spoke on condition of anonymity. "Whoever did this thought the exchange would not be closed for four days.

"This smells real bad."

The source and others in the financial industry speculate that the purchaser or purchasers -- having initially assumed the money could be picked up without detection -- now fear exposure, or that the account has been frozen.

The markets were closed for four days after the attack, giving investigators time to notice the anomalous trades.

Securities regulators and law-enforcement agents throughout the United States and Europe are investigating unusual patterns in short sales and the purchase of "put" options, both of which are financial-market bets that the price of a given stock will fall. Authorities here and abroad have not publicly disclosed any conclusions they have reached and refuse to discuss the case.

There was an unusually large jump in purchases of put options on the stocks of UAL Corp. and AMR Corp. in the three business days before the attack on major options exchanges in the United States. On one day, UAL put option purchases were 25 times greater than the year-to-date average. In the month before the attacks, short sales jumped by 40 percent for UAL and 20 percent for American.

A put option gives the buyer a right to sell the underlying security at a certain price on a certain date; the purchaser profits when the share price drops lower than the agreed sale price. In a short sale, an investor borrows stock from a broker and sells it, hoping to buy it back at a lower price.

October series options for UAL Corp. were purchased in highly unusual volumes three trading days before the terrorist attacks for a total outlay of $2,070; investors bought the option contracts, each representing 100 shares, for 90 cents each. Those options are now selling at more than $12 each. There are still 2,313 so-called "put" options outstanding, according to the Options Clearinghouse Corp.

Other financial professionals have told The Chronicle that an estimated $5 million to $10 million in all could have been made on the trades, including trading on other days and purchases of options on the parent company of American, AMR Corp. Four United and American aircraft crashed in the attacks.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...29/MN186128.DTL

....................................................................

I'm simply amazed that in this day and age anyone would think that 2 million or even 4 million could be considered a huge profit.

Maybe Craig Lamson doesn't think that $2 million to $4 million is much money , but I sure wouldn't mind having it .... Anyhoo , the real figures appear to be more like $5 million to $10 million that some traders are too afraid to collect ... Hmmm ... I do believe I smell a big rat.

A simple construction that Bush the Unelected's role model might appreciate:

Until the life of the terrorist is valued as highly as the life of the terrorized, the terror will continue.

Charles

Man do you EVER have it backwards...

Until the TERRORIST learns to value his OWN life as well as the lives of his victims, the terror will continue.

Man do you EVER have it backwards ...

The REAL terrorists value their own lives very highly ... It's the lives of their victims that they obviously don't give a crap about .

That's the thing about equations, they have a happy knack of being verifiable, regardless of how dull you find them! I can assure you the equation is completely and 100% valid, no matter how bogus you think it is.

It's the figures you plug into that equation are measurable and hence subject to error. If I've made an error in measuring them I'll happily admit to it (though like I said, I used a wide margin for error to take that into account).

So while you're waiting for your think-tank to do the maths, what figures have you measured for the height of the drop, and the time of the drop?

Dave ... It's seems as if I mis-spoke in my last post to you ... It was not the equations that my "think tank" had a problem with , it was indeed your figures which seem to be in error .... So I stand corrected .

Speaking of my "think tank " it looks as if they are extremely busy and haven't had the time to do the maths yet .... So it might be me that needs those extra cold pints of Guiness , instead of you .

As for your question , I do believe the height estimate of the drop is the same as your figure ... As for the time , I will have to get back to you after I light a fire under a certain "think tank"

Very interesting, Duane.

A full and open investigation of 9/11 insider trading, if it ever happens, would reveal that certain well connected insiders had the ability to see into the future, and they didn't let an impending tragedy stop them from making a killing.

Mark .... Unfortunately that investigation will probably never happen ... At least not as long as those responsible for the attacks are still running the show ..

Even if by some miracle the next election is not rigged and a Democrat once again takes office , I don't believe there will ever be any formal government investigation into 9/11 .... If the truth is ever known , it would most likely mean the demise of America as we know it , as the result would bring a revolution against a government which is no longer for the people or by the people , but is rather intentionally killing it's people .

Some secrets need to be protected at all costs ... and so they are .

Wow a 6 year-old report written less than a month after 9/11, couldn’t you find anything more current? Since then a lot of light has been shed on this matter. It seems the trades weren’t as anomalous as 1st though.

http://www.911myths.com/html/put_options.html

Funny logic some guy at the CIA on 9/11 was the number #2 guy at a bank supposedly linked to these trades 4 years earlier and this supposed to prove what exactly?

http://www.911myths.com/html/the_puts_and_the_cia.html

Yes , it is a six year old article , but it might still be news to those who weren't aware of how much money was made off of the 9/11 attacks , with insider trading and put options ... and that those who did make this money obviously had prior knowledge of the attacks .

BTW , those two disinformation links you posted in your rebuttal attempt , are probably just as old .

Cheney Made Millions Off Oil Deals With Hussein

by, Martin A. Lee

San Francisco Bay Guardian

Here's a whopper of a story you may have missed amid the cacophony of campaign ads and stump speeches in the run-up to the elections. During former defense secretary Richard Cheney's five-year tenure as chief executive of Halliburton, Inc., his oil services firm raked in big bucks from dubious commercial dealings with Iraq. Cheney left Halliburton with a $34 million retirement package last July when he became the GOP's vice-presidential candidate.

Of course, U.S. firms aren't generally supposed to do business with Saddam Hussein. But thanks to legal loopholes large enough to steer an oil tanker through, Halliburton profited big-time from deals with the Iraqi dictatorship. Conducted discreetly through several Halliburton subsidiaries in Europe, these greasy transactions helped Saddam Hussein retain his grip on power while lining the pockets of Cheney and company.

According to the Financial Times of London, between September 1988 and last winter, Cheney, as CEO of Halliburton, oversaw $23.8 million of business contracts for the sale of oil-industry equipment and services to Iraq through two of its subsidiaries, Dresser Rand and Ingersoll-Dresser Pump, which helped rebuild Iraq's war-damaged petroleum-production infrastructure. The combined value of these contracts exceeded those of any other U.S. company doing business with Baghdad.

Halliburton was among more than a dozen American firms that supplied Iraq's petroleum industry with spare parts and retooled its oil rigs when U.N. sanctions were eased in 1998. Cheney's company utilized subsidiaries in France, Italy, Germany, and Austria so as not to draw undue attention to controversial business arrangements that might embarrass Washington and jeopardize lucrative ties to Iraq, which will pump $24 billion of petrol under the U.N.-administered oil-for-food program this year. Assisted by Halliburton, Hussein's government will earn another $1 billion by illegally exporting oil through black-market channels.

With Cheney at the helm since 1995, Halliburton quickly grew into America's number-one oil-services company, the fifth-largest military contractor, and the biggest nonunion employer in the nation. Although Cheney claimed that the U.S. government "had absolutely nothing to do" with his firm's meteoric financial success, State Department documents obtained by the Los Angeles Times indicate that U.S. officials helped Halliburton secure major contracts in Asia and Africa. Halliburton now does business in 130 countries and employs more than 100,000 workers worldwide. Its 1999 income was a cool $15 billion.

In addition to Iraq, Halliburton counts among its business partners several brutal dictatorships that have committed egregious human rights abuses, including the hated military regime in Burma (Myanmar). EarthRights, a Washington, D.C.-based human rights watchdog, condemned Halliburton for two energy-pipeline projects in Burma that led to the forced relocation of villages, rape, murder, indentured labor, and other crimes against humanity.

A full report (this is a 45 page pdf file - there is also a brief summary) on the Burma connection, "Halliburton's Destructive Engagement," can be accessed on EarthRights' Web site: http://www.earthrights.org

Human rights activists have also criticized Cheney's company for its questionable role in Algeria, Angola, Bosnia, Croatia, Haiti, Rwanda, Somalia, Indonesia, and other volatile trouble spots. In Russia, Halliburton's partner, Tyumen Oil, has been accused of committing massive fraud to gain control of a Siberian oil field. And in oil-rich Nigeria, Halliburton worked with Shell and Chevron, which were implicated in gross human rights violations and environmental calamities in that country. Indeed, Cheney's firm increased its involvement in the Niger Delta after the military government executed several ecology activists and crushed popular protests against the oil industry.

Halliburton also had business dealings in Iran and Libya, which remain on the State Department's list of terrorist states. Brown and Root, a Halliburton subsidiary, was fined $3.8 million for reexporting U.S. goods to Libya in violation of U.S. sanctions.

But in terms of sheer hypocrisy, Halliburton's relationship with Saddam Hussein is hard to top. What's more, Cheney lied about his company's activities in Iraq when journalists fleetingly raised the issue during the campaign.

Questioned by Sam Donaldson on ABC's This Week program in August, Cheney bluntly asserted that Halliburton had no dealings with the Iraqi regime while he was on board.

Donaldson: I'm told, and correct me if I'm wrong, that Halliburton, through subsidiaries, was actually trying to do business in Iraq?

Cheney: No. No. I had a firm policy that I wouldn't do anything in Iraq – even arrangements that were supposedly legal.

And that was it! ABC News and the other U.S. networks dropped the issue like a hot potato. As damning information about Halliburton surfaced in the European press, American reporters stuck to old routines and took their cues on how to cover the campaign from the two main political parties, both of which had very little to say about official U.S. support for abusive corporate policies at home and abroad.

But why, in this instance, didn't the Democrats stomp and scream about Cheney's Iraq connection? The Gore campaign undoubtedly knew of Halliburton's smarmy business dealings from the get-go. Gore and Lieberman could have made hay about how the wannabe GOP veep had been in cahoots with Saddam. Such explosive revelations may well have swayed voters and boosted Gore's chances in what was shaping up to be a close electoral contest.

The Democratic standard-bearers dropped the ball in part because Halliburton's conduct was generally in accordance with the foreign policy of the Clinton administration. Cheney is certainly not the only Washington mover and shaker to have been affiliated with a company trading in Iraq. Former CIA Director John Deutsch, who served in a Democratic administration, is a member of the board of directors of Schlumberger, the second-largest U.S. oil-services company, which also does business through subsidiaries in Iraq. Despite occasional rhetorical skirmishes, a bipartisan foreign-policy consensus prevails on Capital Hill, where the commitment to human rights, with a few notable exceptions, is about as deep as an oil slick.

Truth be told, trading with the enemy is a time-honored American corporate practice – or perhaps "malpractice" would be a more appropriate description of big-business ties to repressive regimes. Given that Saddam Hussein, the pariah du jour, has often been compared to Hitler, it's worth pointing out that several blue-chip U.S. firms profited from extensive commercial dealings with Nazi Germany. Shockingly, some American companies – including Standard Oil, Ford, ITT, GM, and General Electric – secretly kept trading with the Nazi enemy while American soldiers fought and died during World War II.

Today General Electric is among the companies that are back in business with Saddam Hussein, even as American jets and battleships attack Iraq on a weekly basis using weapons made by G.E. But the United Nations sanctions committee, dominated by U.S. officials, has routinely blocked medicines and other essential items from being delivered to Iraq through the oil-for-food program, claiming they have a potential military "dual use." These sanctions have taken a terrible toll on ordinary Iraqis, and on children in particular, while the likes of Halliburton and G.E. continue to lubricate their coffers.

Martin A. Lee is author of The Beast Reawakens, a book about resurgent fascism.

His column, Reality Bites, appears every Monday on http://www.sfbg.com

Source: www.sfbg.com/reality/04.html

http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/cheney.html

Great article Jack .... I watched that ridiculous 9/11 debunk show the other night on the History Chanel and it was exactly what I assumed it would be .... Government disinformation at it's most obvious ... This documentary was nothing but a handful of government shills pretending to be "experts" and selectively choosing which "conspiracy theories" to pick apart .... If the current administration ( which is busy destroying America ) is anything , it's predictable ...Considering how long this false flag information has been available on the internet , I was wondering what was taking them so long to take it to mainstream television .

Thus , the cover-up begins ....

On Sept. 6, 2001, the Thursday before the tragedy, 2,075 put options were made on United Airlines and on Sept. 10, the day before the attacks, 2,282 put options were recorded for American Airlines. Given the prices at the time, this could have yielded speculators between $2 million and $4 million in profit.

SUPPRESSED DETAILS OF CRIMINAL INSIDER TRADING

LEAD DIRECTLY INTO THE CIA'S HIGHEST RANKS

CIA EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR "BUZZY" KRONGARD

MANAGED FIRM THAT HANDLED "PUT" OPTIONS ON UAL

by Michael C. Ruppert

FTW, October 9, 2001 - Although uniformly ignored by the mainstream U.S. media, there is abundant and clear evidence that a number of transactions in financial markets indicated specific (criminal) foreknowledge of the September 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. In the case of at least one of these trades -- which has left a $2.5 million prize unclaimed -- the firm used to place the "put options" on United Airlines stock was, until 1998, managed by the man who is now in the number three Executive Director position at the Central Intelligence Agency. Until 1997 A.B. "Buzzy" Krongard had been Chairman of the investment bank A.B. Brown. A.B. Brown was acquired by Banker's Trust in 1997. Krongard then became, as part of the merger, Vice Chairman of Banker's Trust-AB Brown, one of 20 major U.S. banks named by Senator Carl Levin this year as being connected to money laundering. Krongard's last position at Banker's Trust (BT) was to oversee "private client relations". In this capacity he had direct hands-on relations with some of the wealthiest people in the world in a kind of specialized banking operation that has been identified by the U.S. Senate and other investigators as being closely connected to the laundering of drug money.

Krongard (re?) joined the CIA in 1998 as counsel to CIA Director George Tenet. He was promoted to CIA Executive Director by President Bush in March of this year. BT was acquired by Deutsche Bank in 1999. The combined firm is the single largest bank in Europe. And, as we shall see, Deutsche Bank played several key roles in events connected to the September 11 attacks.

THE SCOPE OF KNOWN INSIDER TRADING

Before looking further into these relationships it is necessary to look at the insider trading information that is being ignored by Reuters, The New York Times and other mass media. It is well documented that the CIA has long monitored such trades - in real time - as potential warnings of terrorist attacks and other economic moves contrary to U.S. interests. Previous stories in FTW have specifically highlighted the use of Promis software to monitor such trades.

It is necessary to understand only two key financial terms to understand the significance of these trades, "selling short" and "put options".

"Selling Short" is the borrowing of stock, selling it at current market prices, but not being required to actually produce the stock for some time. If the stock falls precipitously after the short contract is entered, the seller can then fulfill the contract by buying the stock after the price has fallen and complete the contract at the pre-crash price. These contracts often have a window of as long as four months.

"Put Options" are contracts giving the buyer the option to sell stocks at a later date. Purchased at nominal prices of, for example, $1.00 per share, they are sold in blocks of 100 shares. If exercised, they give the holder the option of selling selected stocks at a future date at a price set when the contract is issued. Thus, for an investment of $10,000 it might be possible to tie up 10,000 shares of United or American Airlines at $100 per share, and the seller of the option is then obligated to buy them if the option is executed. If the stock has fallen to $50 when the contract matures, the holder of the option can purchase the shares for $50 and immediately sell them for $100 - regardless of where the market then stands. A call option is the reverse of a put option, which is, in effect, a derivatives bet that the stock price will go up.

A September 21 story by the Israeli Herzliyya International Policy Institute for Counter terrorism, entitled "Black Tuesday: The World's Largest Insider Trading Scam?" documented the following trades connected to the September 11 attacks:

- Between September 6 and 7, the Chicago Board Options Exchange saw purchases of 4,744 put options on United Airlines, but only 396 call options. Assuming that 4,000 of the options were bought by people with advance knowledge of the imminent attacks, these "insiders" would have profited by almost $5 million.

- On September 10, 4,516 put options on American Airlines were bought on the Chicago exchange, compared to only 748 calls. Again, there was no news at that point to justify this imbalance; Again, assuming that 4,000 of these options trades represent "insiders", they would represent a gain of about $4 million.

- [The levels of put options purchased above were more than six times higher than normal.]

- No similar trading in other airlines occurred on the Chicago exchange in the days immediately preceding Black Tuesday.

- Morgan Stanley Dean Witter & Co., which occupied 22 floors of the World Trade Center, saw 2,157 of its October $45 put options bought in the three trading days before Black Tuesday; this compares to an average of 27 contracts per day before September 6. Morgan Stanley's share price fell from $48.90 to $42.50 in the aftermath of the attacks. Assuming that 2,000 of these options contracts were bought based upon knowledge of the approaching attacks, their purchasers could have profited by at least $1.2 million.

- Merrill Lynch & Co., which occupied 22 floors of the World Trade Center, saw 12,215 October $45 put options bought in the four trading days before the attacks; the previous average volume in those shares had been 252 contracts per day [a 1200% increase!]. When trading resumed, Merrill's shares fell from $46.88 to $41.50; assuming that 11,000 option contracts were bought by "insiders", their profit would have been about $5.5 million.

- European regulators are examining trades in Germany's Munich Re, Switzerland's Swiss Re, and AXA of France, all major reinsurers with exposure to the Black Tuesday disaster. [FTW Note: AXA also owns more than 25% of American Airlines stock making the attacks a "double whammy" for them.]

On September 29, 2001 - in a vital story that has gone unnoticed by the major media - the San Francisco Chronicle reported, "Investors have yet to collect more than $2.5 million in profits they made trading options in the stock of United Airlines before the Sept. 11, terrorist attacks, according to a source familiar with the trades and market data".

"The uncollected money raises suspicions that the investors - whose identities and nationalities have not been made public - had advance knowledge of the strikes". They don't dare show up now. The suspension of trading for four days after the attacks made it impossible to cash-out quickly and claim the prize before investigators started looking.

"October series options for UAL Corp. were purchased in highly unusual volumes three trading days before the terrorist attacks for a total outlay of $2,070; investors bought the option contracts, each representing 100 shares, for 90 cents each. [This represents 230,000 shares]. Those options are now selling at more than $12 each. There are still 2,313 so-called "put" options outstanding [valued at $2.77 million and representing 231,300 shares] according to the Options Clearinghouse Corp".

"The source familiar with the United trades identified Deutsche Bank Alex. Brown, the American investment banking arm of German giant Deutsche Bank, as the investment bank used to purchase at least some of these options" This was the operation managed by Krongard until as recently as 1998.

As reported in other news stories, Deutsche Bank was also the hub of insider trading activity connected to Munich Re. just before the attacks.

CIA, THE BANKS AND THE BROKERS

Understanding the interrelationships between CIA and the banking and brokerage world is critical to grasping the already frightening implications of the above revelations. Let's look at the history of CIA, Wall Street and the big banks by looking at some of the key players in CIA's history.

Clark Clifford - The National Security Act of 1947 was written by Clark Clifford, a Democratic Party powerhouse, former Secretary of Defense, and one-time advisor to President Harry Truman. In the 1980s, as Chairman of First American Bancshares, Clifford was instrumental in getting the corrupt CIA drug bank BCCI a license to operate on American shores. His profession: Wall Street lawyer and banker.

John Foster and Allen Dulles - These two brothers "designed" the CIA for Clifford. Both were active in intelligence operations during WW II. Allen Dulles was the U.S. Ambassador to Switzerland where he met frequently with Nazi leaders and looked after U.S. investments in Germany. John Foster went on to become Secretary of State under Dwight Eisenhower and Allen went on to serve as CIA Director under Eisenhower and was later fired by JFK. Their professions: partners in the most powerful - to this day - Wall Street law firm of Sullivan, Cromwell.

Bill Casey - Ronald Reagan's CIA Director and OSS veteran who served as chief wrangler during the Iran-Contra years was, under President Richard Nixon, Chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission. His profession: Wall Street lawyer and stockbroker.

David Doherty - The current Vice President of the New York Stock Exchange for enforcement is the retired General Counsel of the Central Intelligence Agency.

George Herbert Walker Bush - President from 1989 to January 1993, also served as CIA Director for 13 months from 1976-7. He is now a paid consultant to the Carlyle Group, the 11th largest defense contractor in the nation, which also shares joint investments with the bin Laden family.

A.B. "Buzzy" Krongard - The current Executive Director of the Central Intelligence Agency is the former Chairman of the investment bank A.B. Brown and former Vice Chairman of Banker's Trust.

John Deutch - This retired CIA Director from the Clinton Administration currently sits on the board at Citigroup, the nation's second largest bank, which has been repeatedly and overtly involved in the documented laundering of drug money. This includes Citigroup's 2001 purchase of a Mexican bank known to launder drug money, Banamex.

Nora Slatkin - This retired CIA Executive Director also sits on Citibank's board.

Maurice "Hank" Greenburg - The CEO of AIG insurance, manager of the third largest capital investment pool in the world, was floated as a possible CIA Director in 1995. FTW exposed Greenberg's and AIG's long connection to CIA drug trafficking and covert operations in a two-part series that was interrupted just prior to the attacks of September 11. AIG's stock has bounced back remarkably well since the attacks. To read that story, please go to http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ciadrugs/part_2.html.

One wonders how much damning evidence is necessary to respond to what is now irrefutable proof that CIA knew about the attacks and did not stop them. Whatever our government is doing, whatever the CIA is doing, it is clearly NOT in the interests of the American people, especially those who died on September 11.

On this particular night the crowd looked promising. I introduced myself to two women there, and after a short while, one of the women told me she worked for the CBOE. The CBOE is the Chicago Board Options Exchange. It is the exchange that handles trading in, among other things, stock options. I half-jokingly asked her, "Whatever happened to the CBOE investigation of all the profits made by those who bought put options on airlines stocks before 9-11?" (You make money on put options when a stock goes down in price.)

Her answered floored me. She said, "It probably would have been easy for us to find out who was behind the trades, but the government came in and told the CBOE president to stop the investigation."

Just to make sure I heard her right, I said to her, "The government came in and told the CBOE president not to investigate?" She said, "Yeah, it was really strange."

The conversation changed for a minute, but I wanted to get back to the government not wanting an investigation. I said to her again, a third time, making sure I heard right, "The government didn't want you to investigate?" She looked at me said "Yes, that's right." Then she looked at me a little longer, she knew I had interest in this topic, she looked a little nervous and then blurted out to me, "We erased the data. Our data on the trades is gone."

[© COPYRIGHT, 2001, Michael C. Ruppert and FTW Publications, www.copvcia.com. All Rights Reserved. May be reprinted or distributed for non-profit purposes only.]

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/illegaltades.html

There is no doubt that disinformation tactics exist. In certain cases, it may be prudent. I just doubt it is as widespread as some would indicate.

I don't doubt that these tactics exist either ... but I will have to disagree with you on this point ... I believe it's more widespread on internet discussion forums than most people could ever imagine .

Hell of an ego you've got there Duane, thinking that my posts have anything at all to do with you. Here's a hint... I was replying to someone else, not you.

Was I wrong? Or is Daniel's intuition 100% infallible and he shouldn't even consider the posibility that he is incorrect?

Hey , lighten up there Kev ... I didn't say that your post had anything to do with me ... I was merely trying to figure out what the hell you were attempting to say , and having a little fun with your rather strange wording .

BTW , I sure have missed you on YouTube "phunkytowel" ... be sure to come back and post some of your memorable and meaningful comments again sometimes , ok ?

Dave ... Sorry for the delay in getting back to you with those rebuttal equations , but I promise you , they are coming .... and when they do , I'm afraid you won't be very happy with the results .

I have a few people who are qualified in high math and physics working on this for me , and greenmagoos is at present making videos for the three bag drops, hammer and feather with timecodes, plus stills.

So if you would like to go ahead crunch your numbers for the other bag drops , that would be great .

I'm not sure when my second opinion will be ready on the physics equations , or when green will be finished with his video evidence ... Plus , I have a very busy weekend coming up and won't be able to post ... but hopefully we will have our rebuttal to your bogus claims ready by the first of next week .

Have a great weekend !

I'll try and have a look at the other bag drops when I get the chance (well, I'll probably do one but can't guarantee all of them in the immediate future - my PC is packed away as I'm plastering and decorating at the moment).

Bert the 16 year old Dutch whizz-kid made a decent effort at the hammer and feather drop last year for Jarrah White. I'll review that and see if it needs any tweaking and post that with his permission (not wasting time re-inventing the wheel!)

You have a great weekend too - mine will start off with a pint of extra cold Guinness tonight around 8pm

I'm looking forward to your next set of bogus equations very much Dave , as I have always found physics and math equations so interesting ...

I have a feeling by the time this particular debate is over with , you are gonna need several pints of extra cold Guinness !

Steve, pursuant to the issue of potential agents of provocation in research forums, and to the potential mental health issues alluded to previously....

the thing I keep trying to deal with in various encounters is when I read something that seems odd or ridiculous to me, particularly coming from someone who garners respect, I only seem to be able to come to two conclusion: either they're just really, really stupid, or they're doing it on purpose

You're missing a third option, that you were wrong about it being odd or rediculous. And I don't mean it as an ad-hom or anything else, but if you honestly think the only 2 posibilities when you disagree with someone is that they are wrong or they are lying, you've must have godlike knowledge and infalibility.

... Sometimes I think Kevin posts here just to see his name on the board ... Or perhaps just to cover up mine ?

Dave ... Sorry for the delay in getting back to you with those rebuttal equations , but I promise you , they are coming .... and when they do , I'm afraid you won't be very happy with the results .

I have a few people who are qualified in high math and physics working on this for me , and greenmagoos is at present making videos for the three bag drops, hammer and feather with timecodes, plus stills.

So if you would like to go ahead crunch your numbers for the other bag drops , that would be great .

I'm not sure when my second opinion will be ready on the physics equations , or when green will be finished with his video evidence ... Plus , I have a very busy weekend coming up and won't be able to post ... but hopefully we will have our rebuttal to your bogus claims ready by the first of next week .

Have a great weekend !

Actually Peter, I was thinking along similar lines to Len (if I get his meaning); you have stated things quite correctly, except they apply to other than the people you had in mind - I think.

The problem is that on the internet the provacateur can create a lot of havoc in a short time. I'm sure we all have certain names in mind....They ask you to document it further...and then further. Then later, to document it all over again.

I wasn't really sure about this one, exactly what you meant. I had in mind the way some people raise a proposition, have it disproven, then wait for a while and then raise it again - ignoring the challenges that were given previously.

They naysay and cast doubt.

Correct. As soon as something happens, it is a CIA plot or a secret government experiment gone wrong or another example of.... something like that. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

They made attacks on the person more often than the information.

This more than anything makes me think of one individual. They complain about ad homs whilst are dishing them out all the time - and rarely actually address the argument given to them.

They divert threads and which they choose is always of interest.

Unsure of meaning.

They try to tempt one to spend all of one's time convincing them [when they can't be convinced...they came with fixed ideology] so the thread doesn't progress and others of good will can't interact easily.

Yep, there is no changing of their opinion. My objective is to show a different opinion, provide alternative explanations, and to highlight where inaccuracies have occurred.

Speaking of the art of disinformation , the above quote would have to be a prime example of this ....There's nothing like twisting other people's words around to have the opposite meaning ... and in doing so , suit their own agenda ..... Correct me if I'm wrong Peter , but it appears that Evan missed your point entirely .

" Everyone from Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck, so-called "conservative"

news websites and columnists, and even local talk radio shows have

done everything in their power to define Ron Paul as a 'nut-

job,' 'dope,' and 'moron,' calling for his removal from the debates

because his views are supposedly 'dangerous' for the country."

Sounds familiar doesn't it Jack ? ... These are the same sad tactics used by a few of the neo-con disinformation artists on this very forum .

Interesting article on the radical right and their agenda of suppressing not only freedom of speech but the truth , on the Fox Noise Network .

I don't have more accurate figures yet, but I'll go with the guesstimates for the time being just to keep the debate moving along. The figures can be refined later if required.

The video footage I've used is http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=66pmBn7En4U, timestamp 1:12.

Looking athe the footage several times, the bag starts rolling forward before it falls off the edge of the sample pouch to the right of the astronaut. This means it will have an initial velocity, both in the horizontal and vertical directions.

This analysis will be in 2 stages. Firstly, I'll assume the video was filmed on earth. Secondly, I'll assume the video was filmed on the moon. In each case, the assumption is made that this is filmed in a vacuum. I'll only consider motion in the vertical direction, with downwards being defined as positive.

Let's define the initial downward vertical component of the velocity of the bag as 'u'.

I'll assume the height of the fall s = 1.25 +- 0.2 m.

From the video, I estimate that the bag starts to fall at 2:06 (i.e 2 seconds, 6th frame), and stops falling at 3:02 (3 seconds, 2 frames). Total frames = 20. Since there are 24 frames per second, this equates to 20/24 seconds = 0.833 seconds.

Hence, t = 0.833 sec

=============================

Scenario I - filmed on Earth?

=============================

Using the equation of motion,

s = ut + ¹/₂at²

We have measured s and t, and know that a = 9.8 ms^-2

Rearranging to solve for u:-

s - ¹/₂at² = ut

u = (s - ¹/₂at²)/t

Plugging in the figures gives

u = (1.25 - (9.8x0.833^2)/2)/0.833

= -2.58 +/- 0.8 ms^-1

Since we have defined the positive direction to be downwards, this means that in order for this video to have been filmed on earth, the bag must have had an initial velocity in the range of approx 1.8 to 3.4 ms^-1in an upwards direction. From the video this clearly isn't the case.

Conclusion - the video can not have been filmed in a vacuum on Earth

=============================

Scenario II - filmed on Moon?

=============================

Acceleration due to gravity on the moon is 1.62 ms^-2

Hence,

u = (1.25 - (1.62x0.833^2)/2)/0.833

= 0.83 (+/- 0.5) ms^-1

So the bag must have had an inital downwards velocity in the range of approx 0.3 to 1.3 ms^-1. The bag started rolling in between frame 1:19 and 1:23 and started falling at 2:06, a total of 7-11 frames (approx 0.25 - 0.5 seconds), so it's not unreasonable to expect an initial downward velocity in this range.

Conclusion - the fall of the bag in this video is not anomalous with the video being shot on the moon

Thanks for your figures and estimates Dave ... Now we have something to go by in refuting your claims .

I will post the rebuttal as soon as we have the numbers together .

...and the crowd goes wild.....

Yeah the crowd went wild when nasa pretended to land men on the moon too .

Speaking of pretending to land on the moon , have you seen Apollo astro-not Alan Bean's amazing art work yet ? ... Even ole' Al knows it was all a farce ... Interesting how he chooses to paint nothing from his memory but only strange interpretations of the faked Apollo photography instead ...

Here's his pal Conrad , with the stagelight reflected in his visor ( oops )

And here is Al's drawing of that stagelight reflection , but now it looks more like a giant spider !!! ... So do you think that reflection was really a stagelight on the moonset , or maybe really a giant alien spider on the moon ?!!?

I'm quite busy right now so I'll make this brief. The Hubble A17 landing zone image is a "birds eye" view. The image in question is an oblique view. It was created by overlaying and warping the "birds eye view" over a 3d model to produce the "oblique view" To Jack, Duane< Percy and the fellow who wrote the article Duane is so taken by, Google is your friend. Did Duane post "misinformation" or "disinformation"?

I'm quite busy right now too Craig but thanks for this "information" .

" This image was constructed by overlaying the Hubble Advanced Camera for Surveys image of the Apollo 17 landing region within the Taurus-Littrow valley, taken on Dec. 16, 2005, with a digital-terrain model acquired by the Apollo program to provide a perspective view looking from west to east up the valley. "

In posting that article ( which I never saw ) you just proved that nasa did in fact alter the image of the alleged Apollo 17 landing site , and in doing so also proved David Percy right .... Thank you .

It would seem that nasa has a bad habit of screwing with all of their photos .... They even took it upon themselves to deliberately alter the color of the Mars photos so we would all think it really was a "red planet " , when in fact , it looks just like our planet .... Imagine that ?

I wil get back to you later Dave ... I don't have the time at this moment to post a proper reply .

bump

Well, it's my contention that it was filmed in a vacuum. On top of that, I don't know how you're going to make allowance for the effect of drag in an atmosphere. I'll continue with the assumption that it is in a vacuum to begin with, and compare scenarios (earth g, lunar g). If you want to factor in atmospheric drag it's going to complicate things more difficult for you. Are you familiar with the drag equation? What is your estimate for the coefficient of drag for a small plastic bag? Let me know how you intend to factor this in.

I believe that we will need the estimates for the drag factor also .... You can assume that it was filmed in a vacuum but that doen't mean that it was .... No , I'm not familar with the drag equation , so unlike you I am seeking help with this .

I made no accusation that Percy sped the film up. I said it "appears to have been sped up" - whether it actually was, or whether it was Percy, I don't at this point. Again, I'd need to know the mission and timestamp. We can look at this clip at a later point if you like, but I think we should stick to the agreed one for the time being for simplicities sake.

"APPEARS TO BE SPED UP" ?? - How are you coming to that conclusion ?? Because the bag is obviously dropping faster than it should be ?? ..I don't know the timestamp for the bag drop and I already told you that Percy didn't speed up this film and wouldn't do so , unless he stated beforehand that he had and why .

I looked at the position of the larger features, and compared them to some smaller craters. Their relative position appear to match. If you're referring specifically to the striations on the South Massif, I don't know why they are apparent in the orbital photo. Something to do with shadow angles? How the photo is processed? I really don't know. I could probably find out with more time, but we have other fish to fry at the moment..

Well you may have other fish to fry but I think it's important to find out why nasa's Hubble photos don't match their other Apollo photos ... and if the striations or ( grooves ) were put in the image for some particular reason ... It's very strange that nasa would be capturing and then possibly photoshopping Hubble images of the alleged Apollo 17 landing site that don't jive with their previous Apollo 17 photos allegedly taken on the moon .

It's quite simple: either you believe that the camera was working properly to begin with, then was severely damaged to be point of being of no further use to the mission, or you believe that the camera was working fine up until they removed it from the LM to set up on the surface, when after a few seconds they decided to pretend that the camera wasn't working, for whatever reason. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one...

Yes it is quite simple ... They obviously did have something to hide ... They also had the 16 MM DAC which could have been used to capture some of the 2nd EVA ... It's a fact the the Apollo 11 and 14 TV footage is a disgrace and that Apollo 12 convienantly " broke their camera " ... Maybe they didn't have their moonset SFX ( WIRES and SOUNDSTAGES ) up to scratch ?

Always happy to help! The TV camera used on Apollo 12 and the one used on Apollo 15 are of a completely different design. The new camera design was commissioned because of the failures on Apollo 12.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_TV_camera

I'm not sure where you got the idea that the 2 cameras were of the same design, but clearly they aren't, so can we consider that particular part of the argument refuted?...

They may not have been of the same exact design but you can hear quite clearly in the video transmission that mission control is demanding that the TV camera be pointed AWAY FROM THE SUN , but as we could all see , the spotlight on the Apollo 15 and 17 moonset did NOT "break" the camera .

I think we started with the gravity equations then got side-tracked, so how about we continue with analysing the videos??...

What's the problem ? ... Don't tell me this is too much for you.... Greenmagoos and I both have seen these antics of yours before many times ... Haven't you managed to throw together a "tiny URL" yet , showing the different direction of the Apollo 15 flag , before the LM ascent ??... Something that Percy

spotted on the Apollo 11 soundstage also ... Those stagehands sure were busy moving the flags around to assure the best positions for the TV coverage .

Disinformation is the deliberate dissemination of false information .....It also includes the distortion of true information in such a way as to render it useless.

And this is exactly what you do ... So I should apologise for what ?

Fortunately I'm entirely capable of doing this myself, although I don't have a problem with collaborative efforts. It can often help to bounce ideas around, or brainstorm. That's exactly what these forums do anyway, share ideas and information. I may ask someone to render the relevant clip from the DVD set and send it to me, using the Youtube video will introduce large errors: especially since there appears to be a rather huge problem with the timer that Greenmagoos added to it! You might want him to check it out. The decimal part of the time never gets higher than .2-something. I want to be as accurate as I can with the figures, so will analyse the video with some software that can step through a frame at a time when I get chance.

As a ball park figure, I'd guesstimate the height at approx 1.25m+/-0.2 m, and the time of the drop at (approx) 1 second (+/- 0.2 seconds). (These figures are very rough and will need refining). It's difficult from the video to ascertain exactly, but it seems as if the bouncing motion introduces an initial downward velocity to the vertical component, difficult to guess so I'll leave that as a variable (u in the s=ut+0.5at^2 equation).

So, do you concur with my rough guesstimates? Do you have more accurate figures? .

First off , all the timecode is - SECS +- FRAMES PER SEC- ie. - 20 FRAMES PER SEC ... I can provide still snapshots if required .... How did you reach that estimate ? ... What is the height of Jack Schmitt in his space suit ?