Jonathan Cohen

17 minutes ago, Charles Blackmon said:

How would Oswald have behaved in former U.S.S.R. (not Russia) if he had not been young, idealistic and in "way over his head"? I don't think this argument in any way shows it to be unlikely that he was being used by intelligence. 

I'm not saying it's impossible that he was used by intelligence. I'm saying that if he was, I see little to no evidence he was AWARE he was being used. He certainly wasn't in on the plan or in cahoots with the U.S. government from the beginning ...

2 hours ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

LHO may not have been on a "hidden intelligence mission" as traditionally understood. His defection could have been simply to test the response of the Soviets and also perhaps be some ploy by Angleton to find the suspected mole. LHO's file was in a special location so anyone looking for it would have been flagged. 

While this is theoretically possible... if it were true, I find little to no evidence that Oswald was aware he was being used in this fashion. His behavior in Russia is completely consistent with a young, idealistic man way over his head in a foreign country, who eventually realized that country was no better than the one from which he came -- thus his return.

1 hour ago, Michael Griffith said:

And people forget how many times Livingstone rejected various conspiracy claims because he correctly found them wanting. 

... only to then conjure some of the most absurd conspiracy theories of his own, harass people like Harold Weisberg and Mary Ferrell with his paranoid delusions, have to be physically separated from attacking other JFK researchers at the Dallas ASK symposiums in the '90s, and champion people like Tom Wilson, whose claims of being able to find and then "peel back" alterations in the assassination evidence record have never been duplicated, much less verified.

25 minutes ago, Charles Blackmon said:

Why, because LN author >fill in the blank< said so of course.

No.. rather, because the preponderance of the evidence does not support the claim that Oswald was in Russia on a U.S. intelligence mission.

7 minutes ago, Gerry Down said:

INS didn't want to let her into the country but the State department intervened and told them to let her in because a child was involved, June, and it would look bad if they broke up a family by letting Lee back into the U.S. but not Marina and June caught in the middle of all this. 

Gerry is correct. There was no "hidden intelligence mission of Oswald."

2 hours ago, Micah Mileto said:

 

Livingstone said in a letter to Harold Weisberg dated 7/1/1991 “I have had a total nightmare with many things going on:...”, “...Year after year of hostile action up to and including an attempt to blow up my car by a federal employee whom I worked with. I have lived with fear, often great illness, and terror most of my life” (Harold Weisberg Archive, jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/L Disk/Livingstone Harrison Edward/Item 007).

I admire your stamina to attempt to go through all of Livingstone's paranoid, bizarre ravings. Due to them, I can no longer accept much, if anything, that he actually put forward related to the JFK case.

3 minutes ago, Michael Crane said:

We should see Arnold in the Moorman photgraph if he didn't already hit the ground.

There sure doesn't look to be a human being on the ground anywhere in this photo.

27 minutes ago, Kathy Beckett said:

Where did you get 8 feet west of the corner of the fence?  James files?

I do know that Mack was in DP during an acoustic recreation, and he stated you couldn't tell where the shots were coming from because the sound was bouncing all over.

Out of curiosity, why isn't Gordon Arnold visible in any films or photos of the assassination sequence? 

1 hour ago, Tom Gram said:

Oh come on. Even the WC realized that Marina’s testimony was full of contradictions and that she wasn’t a credible witness.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=233350#relPageId=26

I never said her testimony didn't have contradictions, but this can hardly be used to completely invalidate her claims that she took the photos. If she didn't, then who did? And if she didn't, then can you offer an explanation for the copy of the photo signed by Oswald and given to George DeMohrenschildt in April 1963?

50 minutes ago, Charles Blackmon said:

I don't remember everything Jack White said about his photo analysis. It seemed like there were enough posts to fill a book. While some of his ideas may have been shown to be wrong, I doubt he was "thoroughly debunked". 

Oh, he most surely was.. including many times right here on this forum, via Josiah Thompson's work quashing White's "Moorman in the street" nonsense, and on non-JFK sites such as Bad Astronomy, which destroyed White's "the moon landing was faked" claims.

9 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Somewhere up above, Jack White is flapping his wings.

While down here the real world, Jack White's absurd photo "analysis" has, thankfully, been thoroughly debunked, but I wonder if the conspirators who operate the evil, modern-day Dealey Plaza surveillance system are wondering why Jack and John Costella never visit the area with their surveying equipment anymore?

10 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Marina's word versus Lee's. Lee is infinitely more credible than Marina!  IMO

Oh sure.... the camera she didn't even know where the viewfinder was.

Another Marina lie. (Can't blame her though, given what she was put through.)

What.... you mean that faked autograph? LOL

Right. So, as usual, all the evidence is fake and every witness is a l**r, huh ? Seems like your answer for everything.

8 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I believe that Lee Harvey Oswald is one of the more credible sources of information regarding himself. Possibly the most credible.

OK, so that must mean you believe the photos are genuine, considering Oswald autographed a print of one of them for George DeMohrenschildt. That must also mean you believe he attempted to assassinate General Walker, since he told Marina that he'd done so. I'm sure you're aware that Marina has insisted from day one that she took the backyard photos herself.

3 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

As I recall, this was long-ago exposed as Soviet disinformation. They forged the letter to try to implicate H.L. Hunt, not realizing the CT's to whom they leaked it would seize upon it being Howard Hunt. 

Pat, Jerry Kroth has an interesting video on this subject, although I'm not sure I agree with his overall conclusion that the letter is genuine based on its repetition of a particular Oswald misspelling. According to his research, the Mitrohkin angle is bunk, and not supported by the trove of Mitrohkin documents housed overseas.

3 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

Three handwriting experts consulted by the Dallas Morning News concluded that Oswald wrote the Hunt letter. If Oswald didn't write it, it was a very good forgery.

Federal investigators didn't want to admit that Oswald wrote the letter because it raises several troubling questions, nor did they want to explore who may have forged the letter if it was in fact a forgery, since such a highly skilled forgery would suggest the involvement of intelligence personnel.

Two major problems, depending on who you think the "Mr. Hunt" was. If It was E. Howard Hunt, why would Oswald have been writing to him using his real name, when Hunt frequently used aliases during intelligence operations? If it was a member of the Hunt oil family, why on earth would they get involved in the assassination and then pay for a full-page ad in the local newspaper advertising just how much they hated and despised President Kennedy? E. Howard Hunt himself believed the document was a forgery made by the Russians to implicate him in the assassination plot.

3 hours ago, Leslie Sharp said:

At the risk of invoking Marguerite among a readership that will likely jump down the throat of anyone who chooses to venture here, Lee's mother knew her son better than certainly Marina let alone Ruth, and also recognized that Ruth was not a "friend" to be trusted. I believe numerous records reflect that Ruth was never in their company as a friend again?

Leslie, this is simply wrong. For one thing, Oswald went out of his way to cut ties with Marguerite when he returned to Texas after Russia, so you cannot reasonably say she “knew” him well during this period of time. Marguerite’s opinion of the Paines is similarly uninformed and largely based on her own profound jealously and sense of entitlement - she was incensed that Lee and Marina would rather rely on the Paines than her. Lastly, the notion that the Paines were somehow obligated to maintain a relationship with Marguerite after the assassination is foolish, especially in light of the fact that they were blanketed by Secret Service and other federal and local agents.

45 minutes ago, John Cotter said:

Saying something is ridiculous is not a logical rebuttal. Neither is an ad hominem attack.

Thanks for the validation.

Back to "ignore" for you, laddie.

1 hour ago, John Cotter said:

Ruth Paine certainly didn't apply the presumption of innocence principle to Oswald when he was dead. Her badmouthing of him then was despicable and it destroys her self-presentation as a kind and virtuous person.

To do that to a murdered man was inexcusable. What made it even worse is that it effectively condoned the actions of the Dallas police in their facilitating Oswald's murder.

In view of Ruth Paine's behaviour in these respects alone, she cannot be considered innocent.

This is one of the most ridiculous “takes” I’ve heard in a long time, but it’s not surprising considering the source.

24 minutes ago, Gil Jesus said:

Ruth Paine was fine human being, especially after Oswald was arrested. She really helped him out didn't she ?

Yes, she absolutely did help him and his family. In fact, she went above and beyond, considering the circumstances. No amount of your evidence-free conspiracy theories will change that.

1 hour ago, Leslie Sharp said:

One can be "used" without realizing it, Jonathan, as I'm guessing you're aware. 

Of course. But, again, there is no evidence whatsoever that the Paines were being "used without realizing it."

1 hour ago, Leslie Sharp said:

Are you at all curious about the prior friendship the Paines shared with the Ubiquitous Bard who frequented the same barbershop as Oswald? 

Nope! I'm sure you could draw plenty of tangential connections like this but they require actual evidence to mean anything on a larger scale.

50 minutes ago, Leslie Sharp said:

Those in DPD responsible for the Paine garage must have recognized the friendly relationship between FBI SA Bard Odum — first name basis including Bard's nickname — and figured if he was okay with Ruth and Michael, there was no reason to grill them? 

They were grilled plenty .. and in nearly 60 years, there has never been any concrete evidence pointing toward them being involved in a conspiracy, despite what most people on this forum apparently believe.

27 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Jonathan,

      Mark Lane noted at the coroner's inquest that the audio tape indicated that an intruder had entered the house (triggering a security alarm) shortly before De Mohrenschildt was murdered.

      See Hit List. Sky Horse. (2013) Richard Belzer & David Wayne.  pp. 236-37.

I'm not so sure about that, and would definitely like a better source than a book by Richard Belzer ...

Just now, Pat Speer said:

It might not be relevant, but context is everything. By 1963, the American public, of all stripes, had been inundated with stories and movies depicting good Quakers who would not harm a fly. It makes sense to me that whatever normal instincts the DPD had about the Paines--that they shouldn't be trusted--were put into the deep freeze once they realized they were Quakers. I mean, these were freakin' Quakers, for crying out loud. 

I had a similar response in my personal life. When my dad died in a different state, I had to go up and sort through his stuff, etc. At the time he was working as a property manager for a religious couple--I think Mennonites. In any event, they had his keys and could have stolen all sorts of stuff--cash, jewelry, electronics, etc. But they were super nice. And religious. So it never crossed my mind. 

 

Pat, I agree.. which is all the more reason to brush aside conspiratorial overtones involving the DPD search of the Paine household.

10 minutes ago, Pamela Brown said:

He may have been suicided.  

There is no evidence that he didn’t kill himself. The entire incident is captured on an audio recording.

8 minutes ago, Michaleen Kilroy said:

Considering how the authorities treated a far less intimate acquaintance of LHO’s - Buell Frazier - grilling him for hours - also shows how strange this is.

There’s really nothing strange about any of this, despite the attempts by people here to lump the Paines in with a conspiracy.