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Posts posted by Bernice Moore
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lbj's announcing the texas trip 43 days it says before kennedy agreed to the trip... :blink:from Newcomb info..
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Bill; this one says freight elevator, now changed to a customer elevator..??
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thanks jack and martin, can you post your photos any larger martin, please..??
bill here is one of the customer elevator inside the lobby or so it said...fwiw...b
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http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Photos
SCROLL DOWN A WEE BIT/ B.
RFK Grand Jury Request Exhibits
Photographs used as exhibits in the 1992 Request to the Los Angeles County Grand Jury, requesting a review of the Robert Kennedy assassination. The photos relate to the issue of a "second gun" in the pantry.
RFK Assassination Photos
This set of photographs comes from the California State Archives and was donated to the MFF by the Assassination Archives and Research Center.
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Edwin Walker Documents
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Thanks for those pix B.
Especially the elevator.
Is that two of the same photos or two different photos?
Are they the same elevator or one of each. They look the same to me.
Why are there no photos of the two elevators together?
They are right next to each other, right?
BK
I BELIEVE THEY AREOF THE SAME ELEVATOR BILL..THESE WERE FOUND AT THE MF SITE, AND IF I RECALL ALL THERE WERE,I AM NOT SURE IF THEY ARE NEXT TO EACH OTHER,
I WILL HAVE ANOTHER SNOOP AROUND.
..B
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ONE OF THE REAR ELEVATOR OUTSIDE SHAFT.STAIRWELL AREA....B
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BILL SOME PHOTOS ELEVATORS ETC...IF OF ANY USE, SOMEONE MAY HAVE A PHOTO OF THE CUSTOMER ELEVATOR...B
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In another thread that went unnoticed, Terry Priest asked an important question:
Somebody who has actually seen the building might be able to give some insight. is there just one staircase?
The guys that were on the 5th floor, that heard in a deafening way 3 shots, and heard the shellcasings hit the floor, because the sub-floor was all there was, and there were cracks in it, i think all that is from posner, did they hot foot it down the stairs, or did they hide because they knew the assassin was coming down the stairs? did anybody ask them how tempted were you to see who was coming down the stairs?
if you are going to shoot the president from the sixth floor, with no accomplices, you got to assume you are not getting down those stairs. i think oswald would have been a nervous wreck all morning and somebody should have noticed it. it was no plan at all. the witness across the street said the shooter stopped, seemed calm, didnt seem in a hurry.
100 employees? the best vantage point would be the building, a lot of folks watching from windows, according to the witness. it would seem everybody in the building would hear the shots, everybody would know somebody was coming down the stairs.
In answer to your question Terry, there were two stairs, one in the very front of the building, a large and elegant one that only went to the second floor, and one in the rear, a small one that went up to the seventh floor.
Though Gary Mack can correct me if I am wrong.
In addition, there were three elevators, one in the front for office personell that only went to the fourth floor, and two in the rear, for workers that went the distance.
For some reason, there doesn't seem to be any photos of the rear elevators at all. At least I've never seen them and can't seem to find any.
Can anyone come up with any photos of any of the elevators?
As for the Oswald being the Sixth Floor Sniper, you are accurate in that Oswald's behavior and activities and the few words he spoke to other employees seems to indicate that he didn't have a clue as to when the motorcade was coming, or that it was coming by at all, or even cared.
Unlike the Walker shooting, in which he staked out the scene weeks in advance, took photos of the place and the surrounding areas, had accomplaces, and kept a notebook of details that he later tore up, burned in his bathroom and flushed down the toilet, there doesn't seem to have been any planning or notes or anything at all leading up to the JFK assassination, even though Henry Wade made the remark that it appeared to him that the assassination was well planned out in advance and that Oswald even planned how he would act under interrogation.
While it appears to me that Oswald was not the Sixth Floor Sniper, whoever he was, he does not appear to be in a hurry, and both witnesses (Eunis, Brennan) say he stood back after his last shot and didn't immediately bolt. In addition, if it wasn't the Sniper, someone stuck around and moved boxes around (per Dillard/Powell photos and Brennan & Moneyham statements) some three to four minutes after the last shot, which in the timetable of what was happening, is a long time.
I believe that whoever the Sixth Floor Sniper was, even if it was Oswald, they knew that there was no hurry, even though there were three policeman right outisde the window, sixty feet below, and Brennan and Eunis calling attention, or trying to call attention to the TSBD and Sixth Floor while everyone else's attention was being drawn to the Knoll. Brennan had the front door covered for the whole time he was there after the assassination and called attention to the fifth floor guys as they came out the door.
Although DVP in his Timeline of events, has Oswald leaving the building within five minutes (while Moneyham was eyeballing a man in the Sixth Floor window at the same time), and the building being sealed within a few minutes of that, the building was not sealed when SS SAIC Sorrels arrived from Parkland at approximately 12:45-50 and found a black guy at the back door of the TSBD and no police around whatsoever. I don't know how Army Intel Agent Powell got stuck in side, but it appears that anybody could come and go as they pleased for at least a half hour after the last shots.
The Dallas PD/Sheriff's tape and transcipt of radio broadcasts say that the TSBD was sealed and covered about 1 pm, shortly before the Sniper's Lair was discovered.
It is my contention that whoever the Sixth Floor Sniper was and/or the guy there at 12:34-5 moving boxes around, they were quite confident that they were going to get away.
How did they know that? Why were they so confident?
Did they work there, as Oswald did? Or was he a cop who just waited for the other cops to get there and just joined them in searching for the rifle?
Or did the Sniper, whether it was Oswald or someone else - did they walk or run down the stairs?
Or did, as some have suspected, the Sixth Floor Sniper accompany Dougherty down in one of the back elevators?
Or are there any other possibilities?
As far as I can tell there are a limited number of ways to go from the Sixth Floor of TSBD to the first.
There are the two rear elevators, that were stationary on the fifth floor until Dougherty brought one down to the first.
Then there are the back stairs, that the official scenario has Oswald, being the Sixth Floor Sniper, uses to get to the second floor. Except that he doesn't encounter Doughtery, who was between the sixth and fifth floors, or the two secretaries who descended the stairs from the fourth floor to the first, or the black guys who went from the fifth floor window below the Sixth Floor Sniper's nest and moved to the west side of the building before descending the stairs. Now these stairs are not like the one in the front, with the winding staircase with rails. The back stairs are small and rickety, and only wide enough for one person.
Once on the second floor, according to the officail scenario, Oswald enters the lunchroom vestibule just as Baker sees him in the door window. If this is true, then how come Roy Truly, who was a few steps ahead of Baker, didn't see Oswald enter the door as he should have?
In addition, according to Baker's same day statement, he says he encountered the employee on the fourth floor. Was that suppose to be the Oswald encounter, or is that an encounter with another TSBD employee?
Then there is the Dallas sheriff's officers, some in plain clothes, including the deputy who "discovered" the Sniper's Nest, who said they passed ANOTHER law enforcement officer Descending the steps while they were going up. If so, who was that?
As far as I can ascertain, there were a limited number of ways that anyone could get from the Sixth to the First floor.
Accoding to the official scenario, Oswald descended the back steps from the sixth to second floor, encountered Baker and Truly in the lunchroom, got a coke and then left via the south door of the vestibule. He walked through the office area where he encountered a secretary who exchanged words with him and noticed he had a coke in his hand. He walked to the front of the building and descended the steps and went out the front door unnoticed by Brennan, who swore that he could have identified the Sixth Floor Sniper if he saw him again, but didn't recognize Oswald leave the building as he did recognize the guys from the fifth floor window and had them stopped and questioned.
I'd also like to know what happened to the coke bottle that Oswald had in his hand on the second floor, that disapears before he leaves the building but is not put into evidence? And what became of the Dr. Pepper bottle found next to the Sniper's Lair, that was dusted for fingerprints and should have been put into evidence?
Besides just taking the elevators in the rear, or walking/running down the rear steps, it is possible to go from the Sixth to the Fourth floor, and pass the offices to the front elevator and descend that elevator to the first floor.
There is also a fire escape that no one saw anyone come down on the outside of the building.
And as "Tex"- the ex-service man from New Orleans who visited LA in the fall of 1962, claimed to be able to do, it is possible to rappell down the elevator shaft, as the quickest way down, at least to win a bar room bet, as "Tex" did.
In any case, the TSBD was never properly sealed by DPD for at least a half hour, except when Powell wanted to leave.
And both Oswald and the Sixth Floor Sniper, whoever he was, just waltzed out of there with no problem, and knew from the get-go that they could do that.
Did I miss any possible escape scenarios?
Again, I'd like to see some photos, a photo of the TSBD elevators, if there is one.
Bill Kelly
BILL I DO NOT HAVE ANY PHOTOS OF THE CUSTOMER ELEVATOR, ONLY THE FREIGHT ELEVATORS, IF OF ANY USE..??SOME INFO BELOW...
http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/08-Parks-36-items/first.reports
Jack C. Cason, president of the depository, said the sixth floor was
used solely as a "dead storage" area. It was stacked about eight feet
high with books. Cason, who left the scene about 30 minutes
before the president's caravan rode down Main Street, said the firm
often had difficulty finding employees who had fallen asleep amidst
the stacks of books. "Sometimes it will be three or four days
without anybody going up to the sixth floor to get anything," Cason
said. He said the "dead storage" area was used to keep books
already stocked in the basement and on the second and fourth
floors. Only when they ran out of copies there does anybody
generally go to the sixth floor. Cason said the killer was apparently
"well aware" of the building's layout because there was no elevator
that goes up to the sixth floor from the front entrance. He would
have had to get off the elevator on the fourth floor, walk to the
back of the building and get the stairs or one of the two freight
elevators on the sixth.
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FROM AN OLD POST ON RICH'S FORUM..The Dealey Plaza Signs :
Emmett E Hudson
"Whitewash ....The Report on the Warren Commission".1965.......page 44..
Harold Weisberg.
""Six months and a day following the assassination.( May.23/64 ) the Warren Commission had the FBI photographic agent, Lyndal L.Shaneyfelt ( 5 H 138 ) do a photographic re-enactment. The report indicates no reason for such a prolonged delay.
The Secret Service had completed it's re-enactment by Dec. 5. 1963. It is difficult to imagine that the Commission could have loaded Mr.Shaneyfelt with more invalidating conditions..
His re-enactment could only serve one purpose...to try and make credible a reconstruction under which the Commission's thesis, that all the shots came from the sixth floor window, might be possible..In fact, he attempted nothing else…..In order to accomplish this, he had to show that no shot was fired before the frame numbered 210 on the Zapruder film..
To begin with, Shaneyfelt had to work with a black-and-white copy of the original Zapruder colour film. Necessarily, the copies were less clear. Then the reenactments began at 6 am as a concession to traffic. Between the time of the year and the time of the day differences between the mock-up and the real thing, al the values of shadows in photographic intelligence were forfeited, For the precise placing of the camera, mounted on the rifle, and other measuring devices Shaneyfelt had the information supplied by the Commission. He was working in fractions of degrees, yet he had to bade everything on "information furnished us by the Commission, photographs taken by the Dallas Police Department immediately after the assassination....." 5H145.......
Snip:
None of the photos of such are or were in agreement with each other nor the facts, as the testimony also shows...."which none of them at the moment of the assassination showed, this was an immediate and total disqualification of anything he might try...
No matter how fine and expert Shaneyfelt, no matter how excellent his equipment or how careful his associates, his testimony and reconstruction could have no validity"..
“For example, Example Exhibit 887 ( R99) is a camera mounted atop the rifle pointing westward from the sixth-floor window. The window is raised several inches higher than it was shown in the Dillard photograph. Of necessity the rife is mounted on a photographic tripod. But there can be only one necessity for fudging on the window--- to make the whole reconstruction possible where otherwise it would not have been. The tripod is adjustable. The rifle is inside the window. With such an obvious flaw, the exhibit is invalid as is any testimony based on it..Another photograph of the re-enactment printed on page 41 of Life Magazine for Oct. 2,1964, shows that part of the reconstruction was made with the window entirely open...This picture shows the ballistic expert resting his arm on a box incorrectly positioned . It is much too far to the west.... Worse, the rifle is without it's telescopic sight. Can any testimony based upon this reconstruction have any value ?"
Snip...page 45...
"" In addition, the experts “duplicated certain frames of the Zapruder film" and of two others available to the Commission. These appear in the Report on pages 100-8 and are readily available for inspection. Not a single on can be called a duplication, as the most superficial inspection, even without instruments, will show. The angles are grossly different. The elevations are radically wrong.
Even the backgrounds are not the same. One of the best examples is the critically important frame 210 (R102) . These are printed side by side and it will be no problem for any doubting reader to satisfy himself.
This particular illustration is also proof of another inexcusable fault:
The landscaping in the background has been altered.....
Valuable intelligence was thus lost........ In other cases trees which served the same purpose were removed and even the vital signs that figure in all of this identification and testimony were both moved and removed..It is no longer possible to make the most precise photographic reconstruction of the assassination because of this destruction and mutilation of evidence.........."'
Continued..
"Whitewash 11..The Report on the Warren Commission"........Harold Weisberg 1966..
Page 4......
"The Commission staff was not unaware of this, for although there is no indication it ever heeded it's own unavoidable proof or wondered why anyone would dream of destroying evidence in the assassination of an American President, the whole story was blurted out by Emmett E.Hudson, ( witness to the killing )groundskeeper of Dealey Plaza, in his belated testimony of July 22,1964, almost two months after the Commission had originally scheduled the end of it's work..( first mentioned page 45..WhiteWash.) .
Not only were the hedges and shrubbery trimmed, thus destroying all the projection points essential to photographic analysis, but all the road signs absolutely vital in any reconstruction had been moved-------All Three Of Them--------Zapruder had filmed over the top of the center sign ( Stemmons) ..Two of the signs were entirely removed. The one over which Zapruder filmed was replaced, and there is no reason to believe it's replacement is in exactly the same location in the ground or at exactly the same height above it.
Unless both of these conditions, plus the angle of the sign toward Zapruder's lens , were exactly identical with conditions when he took his pictures, no precise reconstruction is possible..
All this funny business with the signs got on the record by accident, not through the dilligence of the Commission or it's counsel. Wesley J.Liebeler was questioning Hudson. Not until eight months to the day after the assassination, but finally Hudson was being questioned. He volunteered this testimony: "Now, they have moved some of those signs. They have moved that R.L. Thornton Freeway sign and put up a Stemmons sign ".....It was this "Stemmons" sign over which Zapruder photographed.
"They have? They have moved it?" Liebeler asked, his cool nonchalance preserved in cood type.
"Yes, sir." replied Hudson.
"That might explain it", Liebeler then said. at the same time, without even seeming so to intend, preserving for both the Commission and history the certain knowledge that the two photographs about which he was interrogating Hudson, one taken at the time of the assassination and the other after it, were not in agreement. ....And here the accidental interest of the Commission in the destruction and mutilation of the most essential evidence ended"..................
Page 130:
"When Hudson reaffirmed his testimony ( and the landscaping also was altered, with the destruction of essential photo-intelligence and analysis reference points in the backgrounds of the pictures)..., the complacent assistant counsel replied, ""That might explain it, because this picture here, No 18, was taken after the assassination and this one was taken at the time----No. 1..""
The "after" refers to the official reconstruction of the crime!.....Hudson's unanticipated blurting out of what is obvious from the most cursory examination of the photographs evidence marks the beginning and the end of the Commission's interest."
*--------*-------*--------*-------*
Here is some info from Jack .....
""in the sixties all such highway signs were 3/4 inch marine plywood, not aluminum like today. In fact,
some of the very old plywood signs are still in use in a few places where they have not needed updating.
One thing very odd about the Stemmons sign is that it has NO ANGLE IRON BRACING on the back. Back
in the 80s I checked a lot of the plywood signs, and virtually all I could find had angle iron braces, especially
if larger than four feet by eight feet, because any splices had to be braced. I have never been able to
get exact dimensions anywhere on the size of the Stemmons sign. Does anyone know?""
Jack
""the sign was 4-feet X 8-feet"", ........I have read on the web.....?
Current Section: Exhibit CE 875
shown to Emmett Hudson..
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=139712
Mr. LIEBELER - There are two signs in picture No. 18, one says, "R.L. Thornton Freeway, keep right." and the other one says, "Fort worth Turnpike, keep right."
Mr. HUDSON - There were two of them that wasn't too far apart right through here - them signs was - one was right along in here and the other one was either further up, I guess. It's not in that picture - I don't believe. Now, they have moved some of those signs. They have moved the R.L. Thornton Freeway sign and put up a Stemmons sign.
Mr. LIEBELER - They have? They have moved it?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - That might explain it, because this picture here, No. 18, was taken after the assassination and this one was taken at the time - No. 1.
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/hudson.htm
Below, Emmett Hudson, in Muchmore…frame….White Hat on the middle left on steps and then sitting on the ground after the assassination…
WC recreation photos…shown to Hudson….Signs..
Hudson.an..in.Muchmoore..
The Dillard photo….re the Alyea…information.
Hits to Dealey....
How many shots could there have been ?
The SS called them a “flurry “ of shots..that came into the limo..
Roy H. Kellerman-
Possible hits and misses…
A hit to Elm street behind the motorcade, sounded like a backfire..fireworks....
A hit to the south side sewer cover..DSD Eddie (Buddy).Walthers…..DMD Ed Brewer..
Two furrows in the grass south side, across from fence.. Edna & Wayne Hartman
A hit to the north sidewalk..Aldredge, .reported to FBI….DMNews Carl Freund ..photo..
Not mentioned in WR..
A hit to the curb south side, Tague hit.
A hit to the Stemmons Freeway sign ..no reports rumours..
A last missed shot , after President hit…… Royce G.Skelton, puff of concrete off right fender also DSD Eddie (Buddy) Walthers..
Possibly Tague hit…hit pavement in the left or middle lane..concrete knocked to
the south away from the car… Mrs. Caroline Walther..and possibly more shots,,..not called by W/C..name not within..
but statement made available….WC Vol 24
Hit to the President entrance front neck..
Hit to the President’s back.
Hit to the President front temple
Hit to the President left temple
Hit to John Connally in his right side back.
Hit to John Connally to the wrist.
Hit frontal…to the X100 windshield.,,could be neck entrance shot.
Hit to limo dash board..
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
From the Warren Commission section 9...Paragraph H..
Summary and Conclusions..
“”(h) After careful investigation the Commission has found no credible evidence either that Ruby and Officer Tippit, who was killed by Oswald, knew each other or that Oswald and Tippit knew each other.
Because of the difficulty of proving negatives to a certainty the possibility of others being involved with either Oswald or Ruby cannot be established categorically,
but if there is any such evidence it has been beyond the reach of all the investigative agencies and resources of the United States and has not come to the attention of this Commission. “”
Had they not possibly known there was, or been so positive that there had not been a conspiracy……They would not have
had any reason to have made the above statement, and in some way left it open ended..
in the first place…..
This was admitting to such, some would say….
http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wcr/page22.php
“Pictures don’t lie, unless they are made to “..
Harold Weisberg…..
Page 1,,”Whitewash 2 “
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The Creation of the Warren Commission
by Donald Gibson
CTKA PROBE Magazine
Volume 3, No, 4
May-June 1996
Most of the people who have done research on or are knowledgeable about the performance of the so-called Warren Commission are convinced that a number of its members and counsel played an important role in the post-assassination cover-up. Those seriously interested in its work, including the author, are convinced that the commission's oversights, distortions, and other shortcomings represent something that is explainable only in terms of the intentions of people such as Allen Dulles, John J. McCloy, J. Lee Rankin, and Gerald Ford.
Although a massive amount of work has been done on the Commission's performance, the story of how the Commission was created has remained incomplete. This story needs to be completed because both reason and the facts indicate that the formation of the Commission, like the performance of elements of the FBI and the media, was as much a part of the cover-up process as was its Report.
Continued:
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not what your looking for but, dulles and lbj.and the 36th....b
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http://vincepalamarasecretservicejfk.blogspot.com/2010/08/former-federal-agent-whos-not-pussy.html vince palamara blog; article on fbi agent donald adams
b scroll down...
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the johnson treatment...b
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BULLET HOLES IN THE LIMOUSINE AND EXTRA BULLETS...
COPY THIS INTO YOUR GOOGLE AND IT COMES RIGHT UP...
?B
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HI BILL;MILTEER SHOULD HAVE BEEN ARRESTED AND CHARGED NOT RELEASED BUT.
YES I WONDERED WHY WHOMEVER DID NOT ASK THE QUESTIONS...DUH...
PERHAPS SOMEONE HOPEFULLY WILL CONTACT HIM, THOUGH VINCE DEALS WITH SSA MAINLY PERHAPS HE MAY, I WILL MAKE SURE HE RECEIVES THE INFO..I DID A SEARCH IN THE FILES, BUT HAVE NOTHING ON HIM, NO PHOTO, NOT A WORD SO FAR, BUT WILL CONTINUE, .HOPE ALL IS WELL, TAKE CARE.PLEASE EXCUSE THE CAPS....B.. and THANKYOU MR HOGAN
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IRELAND
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JFK'S RECEPTION IN EUROPE ; TIME MAGAZINE
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,875007,00.html?xid=rss-mostpopularemail
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A FEW OTHERS OF LHO'S CUBBY HOLE...B
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HI JIM; YES HE DOES; HERE ARE A COUPLE TAKEN FROM WITHIN THE TEXAS THEATRE, DURING THE TUSSLE FROM WHAT YOU CAN SEE OF HIS EXPRESSION, I THINK IT WAS A ROUGH HOUSING,AND FROM SOME DESCRIPTIONS THAT HAVE BEEN GIVEN IN BOOKS, ETC, THERE ARE ALSO SOME OTHERS TAKEN AT THE DPD THAT SHOW HIM PRETTY ROUGHED UP IMO...PLEASE EXCUSE THE CAPS.....B
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REPORT CARD ON IDENTIFCATION OF LHO..AND ARREST WARRANT....B
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LHO COMPLAINING; FROM A VIDEO FRAME, I BELIEVE.NOTE TIME ON THIS ARREST REPORT...
.B
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It's interesting how you ignore the fact that Scoggins managed to identify Oswald's smashed up face in one of the most unethical and unfair lineups ... [snipping the remainder of Farley's silly anti-DPD tirade re: the lineups]...
LOL. Oh, sure. His face was bloodied and "smashed up" to an absolute pulp by those evil DPD bastards, wasn't it Lee? I can hardly tell that it's Oswald at all here, his face is so pulp-like. Get real:
Your MO is so predictable.So is yours. I can see through you like a great-big ol' sheet of Reynold's Wrap.
LOL LOL LOL
Putting words in people's mouths again eh, Dave? I never said "to an absolute pulp." He had a long bruised cut on his head. He had a bruised a slightly cut nose that was bringing up two "panda" black eyes and his left eye was quite badly swollen and cut. He also had a bad bruise on the back of his right neck. He was wearing a sweaty and dirty t-shirt and he gave his real name and where he worked.
You're right. Who would ever pick Oswald out of this lineup;
LEE; HERE IS THE SIDE VIEW...
B
Good summary of presentation by Ed Tatro
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
THANKS ROBERT.AND BILL...B