Bernice Moore

"Amoral" is just an inadequate word to describe Lyndon Johnson. He was capable of ANYTHING - any corrupt action, any crime, any lie, any murder. Anything. A scared and insecure Lyndon Johnson was a very dangerous animal. http://www.21stcenturyradio.com/1314-presidents.html

Madeleine Brown talks about the time LBJ made her black nanny of 10 years, Dale Turner, disappear FOREVER. Lyndon Johnson probably had her murdered because Dale saw Lyndon with Madeleine in a hotel hallway when he was Vice President, probably in the Manger Hotel in San Antonio.

OUR MATE CAME UP MISSING [Lyndon Johnson gets rid, probably murdered Madeleine’s nanny Dale Turner!]

"Dale Turner, our mate... came up missing and I've never found her since," says Madeleine of the woman who was basically the nanny to her two children and had been with Steven since he was born. She says LBJ spotted Dale observing the two of them together at a hotel in San Antonio and it upset him. "He covered his tracks very well," says Madeleine. "He didn't want anyone to know about our relationship, so after Dale saw him he told me that I would have to tell her goodbye. I said 'I can't do that, she's been with us ten years!' And he said, 'I said you'll have to tell her goodbye.' After we were returned to Dallas she called me at work and told me that she had some very important business, and I said, 'That's fine Dale, go take care of it, just take the boys to my mother's, [who] we lived close to.' I said, 'Take all the time you want.' She lived in with us and that was very convenient... Dale never did return. We had the "color law" in Texas in those years. If you did report a [missing] black, they could care less. It's very sad and tragic, but it did happen... Through the years I have tried to find her or find out what happened." She heard 'Mack Wallace' took care of her implying LBJ's orders caused the murder of the woman who had been the nanny of the President's son.

Madeleine Duncan Brown on Lyndon Johnson:

http://www.21stcenturyradio.com/1314-presidents.html

________________________________________

When we focus on the Kennedy Administration and sex, people automatically think of Marilyn Monroe and other glamorous lovers of JFK. Fewer are familiar, however, with Lyndon B. Johnson's long time mistress, Madeleine Duncan Brown. Last year [1997] Madeleine published her steamy memoirs of her love affair with LBJ that began in Texas long before he became president, and resulted in an illegitimate son named Steven. Murder, intrigue, treason, and lots of hot sex, it's all here in this book, Texas in the Morning: The Love Story Of Madeleine Brown And President Lyndon Baines Johnson. Madeleine did one of her first radio interviews on The Zoh Show on July 31, 1997, arranged by her publisher, Baltimorean Harrison Edward Livingstone, a Zoh Show listener. Livingstone believes Madeleine deserves our gratitude for coming forward after withstanding extreme efforts to silence her, even to the extent of imprisoning her son, and possibly causing his death. Steven died in a Naval Hospital in 1990 under mysterious circumstances.

Among Madeleine's incredible memoirs there is the night before JFK's assassination when Madeleine remembers Lyndon at a party with Richard Nixon, J. Edgar Hoover, John J. McCloy and other rich and powerful men who she believes discussing plans to assassinate the president on November 22, 1963. Of course, Madeleine's detractors will say she's watched too many Hollywood conspiracy movies, but Madeleine Brown says she's telling the truth. If what she says is true, the United States government orchestrated a political coup like the ones we associate with rogue third world nations. According to Madeleine Brown, and in the opinion of many other people, we have not had a legitimate federal government since.

LBJ WAS RED-FACED

Madeleine describes an anxious and red-faced LBJ emerging from that party briefing. The words she remembers are: "After tomorrow those God-damned Kennedys will never embarrass me again. That's not a threat, that's a promise."

WHO'S MADELEINE DUNCAN BROWN AND WHERE DID SHE COME FROM?

"I came from a devout Christian family and I had wonderful parents and grandparents on both sides. We lived in a small community in the Bible Belt of Texas," Madeleine Brown describes her background. After I graduated from high school I went to work for the Republic National Bank for $90 a month. It was great. From there I went into advertising.... I was 23 at the time, and women weren't quite as developed, you might say, as they are today. I lived a very sheltered life."

"ALICE AND WONDERLAND TYPE PARTIES"

She recalls the first time she met Lyndon. One of the advertising firm's clients, radio station KTBC, one of Lyndon Johnson's properties,was giving a huge party, "and they invited me to come. That night I met Lyndon and he invited me to come to another party in Austin. They used to have real big parties. I'm talking about Alice in Wonderland type parties. When I went to Austin and we were dancing at the Driskill Hotel he put a key in my hand and everything followed suit."

She didn't know who he was other than one of the rich and powerful and she was "excited" at the prospect of a rendezvous. Madeleine was a young widow in her twenties at the time and remembers feeling an incredible chemistry with this intriguing man. "It was so powerful," she recalls. "Even today as I speak or think of him my body reacts to his name. It was an exciting experience for me. We had a strong sex life together."

She acknowledges that her book is "a little bit on the X-rated side."

Zoh suggested perhaps they had been lovers in a former lifetime, and Madeleine considered, "It was either that or it was just something that happens between a male and a female. I half-way believe in reincarnation. Again, our life was so beautiful together until... but of course having Steve made it worth it all."

TEXAS OIL CONTROLLED WASHINGTON

"A lot of people do not realize it, but [at that time] the oil people in Texas controlled Washington," continues Madeleine, remembering the days when she first met Lyndon. "Even starting way back in 1920 President Taft would come to Texas and this Clint Murchison, one of the big oil people, had married a girl from Tyler, Texas, and even J. Edgar Hoover came during those years. And so Clint established himself in Washington and it began to grow. And even President Roosevelt and Harry Truman all through -- you can read the book, ‘who's who of the elite’, and see how these presidents tied together. Texas had actually controlled Washington. They were very strong in our government. In 1960 when lay people thought they really had selected the candidates to run for the Presidency, they did not. Joe Kennedy, the father, had the mafia behind him and, of course, H. L. Hunt, and oil people were supporting Kennedy. And these two men met in Los Angeles, California and they decided who would run on the ticket. H. L. Hunt finally said, "We'll concede if Lyndon goes on as Vice-President." So, the two men chose the candidates for the 1960 election. Lay people don't really understand that unless they understand the policies of America."

LITTLE GIRLS SHOULDN'T HAVE BIG EARS

Madeleine remembers seeing J.Edgar Hoover while together with Lyndon on their second date together in Austin. She asked Lyndon about it, and it was the first time he warned her with the soon to be oft-repeated phrase. "He told me little girls shouldn't have big eyes and big ears and they didn't see, hear, or repeat anything. When I did ask Lyndon that's when he told me I should never see, hear, or repeat anything." Later in the book, Madeleine alleges that during their subsequent 21 year love affair, after their son, Steven, was born, J. Edgar Hoover began blackmailing Lyndon over their relationship.

John Connally once said about LBJ: "There is no adjective to describe Lyndon. He was cruel and kind, generous and greedy, sensitive and insensitive, crafty and naïve, ruthless and thoughtful, simple in many ways, yet extremely complex, caring and totally uncaring; he could overwhelm people with kindness and turn around and be cruel and petty towards those same people." Madeleine says that when she first learned she was pregnant, he asked her to have an abortion. But when she refused because of her religious beliefs, he said, "It takes two to tango and I will take care of my responsibilities." And that's what he did, continued Madeleine. "He had Jerome Ragsdale come out to the house, and of course it crushed my mother and father. In those years a woman just simply... didn't have a child out of wedlock. If they did, families would send them away and sometimes they never came back to our area. So I crushed my parents, and even today I grieve sometimes because they were such wonderful, wonderful people. But Jerome Ragsdale and my father worked out all of the financial things and that's the way it continued until 1975."

Madeleine said, "If it ever leaked out, Ragsdale would take the fall for it... Of course Lyndon had total control in Texas in the press, the media." They had it all planned for Jerome Ragsdale to come forward and say he was the father, should any scandal erupt.

THERE WERE TWO SONS

Madeleine already had a son from her earlier marriage when she gave birth to Lyndon's son Steven. She says the two boys were very close and remained so throughout their lives until the knowledge of paternity was revealed. "Steven was so close to me, and he was the best looking thing, great big ole' guy, heart as big as an ocean," said his mother. He died [of cancer] under mysterious circumstances in 1990 and since then she has made peace with her other son, Jimmy.

HOOVER BLACKMAILED LBJ ABOUT Madeleine

"Of course, that was just J. Edgar Hoover, he did this to people," said Madeleine. "He blackmailed them." Lyndon suddenly told her that she would have to get married. "I said, 'Get married?' Another one of the White House Secretaries [had been] married off to a well known person, [but] I said 'I don't KNOW anyone to get married [to].' " But Lyndon had already arranged everything. "He said, 'You've been shooting skeet out at the Dallas Gun Club and I believe the fellow's name is Charles West', and I said, 'But I don't KNOW him', and he said, 'Well, all arrangements have been made.' ...It was called a paper marriage, in order to get some of the heat off in Washington.... it did take some heat off of Lyndon."

Madeleine was so totally devoted to Lyndon that she was willing to stand by him not only through this paper marriage, but even to the suppression of knowledge about murders of important officials. Her autobiography is like a romantic political intrigue novel. She recalls the death of U.S. Agriculture official Henry Marshall who was found dead on his farm.

Madeleine says it was well known Kennedy was going to drop Lyndon from the ticket because of Lyndon's involvement with the Bobby Baker scandal in Washington, and in Texas the agriculture people had been accused of subsidizing cotton contracts. There were a lot of scandals going on, insider trading on lucrative contracts in the cotton market for individuals in the government. Henry Marshall looked into it and he was going to go public. "Someone leaked information from the agricultural department... Henry Marshall with all of his records and things, he had to be silenced. There was a trigger man here in Texas, Malcolm E. Wallace... Anyway Henry Marshall, they first said he committed suicide. Can you believe five shots in the stomach with a .22 and [they said he] killed himself?"

Madeleine was very proud of the fact that 23 years later, one of her son's law classmates helped overturn the suicide verdict of Henry Marshall's death and turned its classification into homicide.

OUR MATE CAME UP MISSING [Lyndon Johnson gets rid, probably murdered Madeleine’s nanny Dale Turner!]

"Dale Turner, our mate... came up missing and I've never found her since," says Madeleine of the woman who was basically the nanny to her two children and had been with Steven since he was born. She says LBJ spotted Dalel observing the two of them together at a hotel in San Antonio and it upset him. "He covered his tracks very well," says Madeleine. "He didn't want anyone to know about our relationship, so after Dale saw him he told me that I would have to tell her goodbye. I said 'I can't do that, she's been with us ten years!' And he said, 'I said you'll have to tell her goodbye.' After we were returned to Dallas she called me at work and told me that she had some very important business, and I said, 'That's fine Dale, go take care of it, just take the boys to my mother's, [who] we lived close to.' I said, 'Take all the time you want.' She lived in with us and that was very convenient... Dale never did return. We had the "color law" in Texas in those years. If you did report a [missing] black, they could care less. It's very sad and tragic, but it did happen... Through the years I have tried to find her or find out what happened." She heard 'Mack Wallace' took care of her implying LBJ's orders caused the murder of the woman who had been the nanny of the President's son.

She says she wrote the book because she felt that after Lyndon was out of office that he should have come forth and recognize Steven. "At parties, he'd call him 'son', but he never did come out and say 'this is my son' or anything like that." Madeleine says he was hurt by it, but after Steven got sick with cancer, she decided to go public with the affair in this book. She hoped to have Steven take his place along with the Johnson girls as Lyndon's only son.

JACK RUBY HAD A MAP OF THE KENNEDY DALLAS ROUTE

In her book, Madeleine describes Jack Ruby holding a map of the Kennedy Dallas route making comments about where they were going to blow his head off. She says that together with executives from the ad agency where she worked they would go to the Carousel Club and play cards. "Remember Dallas was very small," she says, "it wasn't a metropolitan city. And in the afternoon the club wasn't open, but we'd go over, some of the executives from the ad agency, we'd sit there and play cards, but we could always find out what was going on, it was kind of a place to learn all. We were playing cards there one afternoon, and it was a couple weeks, I think, prior to the assassination, and Jack Ruby came over to us. He always called us "classy guys". And he said, 'Guess what I have?' And I glanced up and I said, 'What is it?' And he said, 'When that son of a bitch comes to Texas,' he said, 'It's the map where he's going.' It kind of stunned me and I said, 'All I know, Jack, is you run with the great white fathers of Dallas, and you know what's going on.' But it stunned me that knowing who he was that he would have this kind of confidential information. Now, the map was later published in the newspaper, but Jack had it before it ever hit the newspaper. Then he commented, he said, 'Doesn't he know that he should stay out of Dallas?' Kennedy's name was mud in Dallas and he said, 'Some of these jocks will blow his head off.' I said, 'We hope not.' We kind of passed it over, but once the assassination happened, and [what I heard] at the party the night before, things went falling in place."

She intimates that Ruby knew the Dallas police department, and that Lee Harvey Oswald and Ruby were together at the Carousel Club. She talks about rumors of high level authorities changing the motorcade route, the lack of security and press in Dealey Plaza at the crucial moment, witnesses who claim the motorcade slowed or virtually stopped during the shooting and other disturbing allegations coming from one who was so close to the events as they happened.

IT WAS THE OIL PEOPLE WHO KILLED KENNEDY

"When I met Lyndon at the Driskill Hotel on New Years Eve, 'course he was President then, I asked him. I said, 'People in Dallas think you had more to gain than anyone from the assassination of John Kennedy, and I've got to know. I'm very disturbed about it.' He had one of his "Johnson fits" and said again, 'You don't see, hear, or repeat anything.' But he also said, 'It was the oil people that I knew and intelligence that had caused the assassination.' I have never disbelieved it because I knew the things that were going on in Dallas, Texas."

"...Malcolm Wallace was there in Dallas, Texas. I saw Mack Wallace out at the Dallas Gun Club practicing two or three days prior to the assassination... I have always felt that since the witnesses did hear the shots coming from the grassy knoll..."

Madeleine also remembered another incident before the assassination that gave her reason to think twice. She says that she and H. L. Hunt, one of the richest men in America used to park in the same parking lot on Jackson Street, and one day when they were walking up the same street they walked together almost every day, he said to her: "Come here, honey, I want to show you something." She looked at what he was holding and saw one of the caricature drawings of President Kennedy as a mug shot, saying "Wanted For Treason". Madeleine says she said to H.L. Hunt: "Oh my God, H.L., you can't do the President that way!" She continues, "I was so naive at the time, and he said, 'Hell I can't! I'm the richest man in the world, and I can do what I want to.' And he did. After the assassination... H.L. Hunt went to Washington and stayed three weeks with Lyndon over the oil depletion. H.L. Hunt came back to Dallas and said 'We've won the war.' The oil depletion was never mentioned again. And of course that was one of the things he hated John Kennedy over. But H.L. Hunt bragged almost all the time. He said, 'Well, we got him out of office.' That was it."

STEVEN FINDS OUT WHO HIS FATHER IS

A brush with death brought the truth out of Madeleine after a heart attack. "I told him, I wanted to go to the other side without any hurt in my heart," she says. "And so I told him where the papers were that were showing Lyndon was his father. Steven was wounded by it and he was very bitter. He felt like I had been very deceitful to him... He had a raging fit just like Lyndon did and he filed a law suit for his part of the money." Unfortunately the notoriety Steven brought upon himself by claiming his rights to the inheritance of the Johnson estate was used against him by the U.S. Navy. "Unfortunately he had served time in the Navy after graduating from A&M," says Madeleine. She begged him not to file the law suit, "I said you don't want to do that, we're okay, we're going to be okay for life." But he did it anyway. "After him being 10 years out of the Navy, they decided that -- or the Navy or someone did -- that he was a deserter from the U.S. Navy, and it brought all kinds of problems." Steven was taken from Dallas to Corpus and then to San Antonio where Lyndon's records were. And suddenly he was sick and in the hospital. They did some tests on him, and the next thing Madeleine knows is he's missing from the Brooks General Hospital. "He was gone for about two months," she says. "I exercised everything I could to locate him, hiring a detective in Washington. We tried to get his law suit postponed, but they wouldn't do anything in Dallas for him. When the case came up from court they marked on the case "Failed to Appear in Court". And then after this happened we located Steven in Bethesda, Maryland. By the time we got him back home, he was so sick he ultimately passed away."

It shows how much power these people have, she says, and how they can sculpt documentation to prove whatever they want to. "It's very heart breaking."

Many people wonder why Madeleine has not been "bumped off". "Why have I survived?" she wonders? "I actually am better off now than I've ever been." She has some real reservations about a terrible automobile accident she had in 1967, but continues to live a very cautious, secluded, quiet life.

Her book is dedicated to Steven Mark Brown, December 27, 1950 to September 28, 1990 and to his father Lyndon Baines Johnson August 17, 1908 to January 22, 1973.

Zoh noted the unifying factor of fidelity and infidelity so prominent in Madeleine's life. Faith and contract and partnerships between mates and lovers, or ourselves and our federal government, often you can find a pattern of extreme infidelities alongside fierce loyalties in all relationships. Madeleine claims Lyndon's loyalty to her was a special kind of fidelity. The resulting infidelity this implies of his relationship to his wife, Lady Bird, can be compared to his infidelity to the community as has been demonstrated in his highly criticized methods of handling the Vietnam War.

IF LYNDON WERE HERE TODAY

If Lyndon were here today, Madeleine supposes he would demand a night full of sex and in the morning he would throw open the windows and yell "Goddamn, I love Texas in the morning!" as he did so many times before. "I'd tell him, since he didn't take a step forward -- I did. And he'd say, 'You don't see, hear or repeat anything.' I'd say, I hear YOU Lyndon."

THANKS ROBERT.AND BILL...B

lbj's announcing the texas trip 43 days it says before kennedy agreed to the trip... :blink:from Newcomb info..

Bill; this one says freight elevator, now changed to a customer elevator..??

thanks jack and martin, can you post your photos any larger martin, please..??

bill here is one of the customer elevator inside the lobby or so it said...fwiw...b

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Photos

SCROLL DOWN A WEE BIT/ B.

RFK Grand Jury Request Exhibits

Photographs used as exhibits in the 1992 Request to the Los Angeles County Grand Jury, requesting a review of the Robert Kennedy assassination. The photos relate to the issue of a "second gun" in the pantry.

RFK Assassination Photos

This set of photographs comes from the California State Archives and was donated to the MFF by the Assassination Archives and Research Center.

Edwin Walker Documents

http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

Thanks for those pix B.

Especially the elevator.

Is that two of the same photos or two different photos?

Are they the same elevator or one of each. They look the same to me.

Why are there no photos of the two elevators together?

They are right next to each other, right?

BK

I BELIEVE THEY AREOF THE SAME ELEVATOR BILL..THESE WERE FOUND AT THE MF SITE, AND IF I RECALL ALL THERE WERE,I AM NOT SURE IF THEY ARE NEXT TO EACH OTHER, I WILL HAVE ANOTHER SNOOP AROUND. ..B

ONE OF THE REAR ELEVATOR OUTSIDE SHAFT.STAIRWELL AREA....B

BILL SOME PHOTOS ELEVATORS ETC...IF OF ANY USE, SOMEONE MAY HAVE A PHOTO OF THE CUSTOMER ELEVATOR...B

In another thread that went unnoticed, Terry Priest asked an important question:

Somebody who has actually seen the building might be able to give some insight. is there just one staircase?

The guys that were on the 5th floor, that heard in a deafening way 3 shots, and heard the shellcasings hit the floor, because the sub-floor was all there was, and there were cracks in it, i think all that is from posner, did they hot foot it down the stairs, or did they hide because they knew the assassin was coming down the stairs? did anybody ask them how tempted were you to see who was coming down the stairs?

if you are going to shoot the president from the sixth floor, with no accomplices, you got to assume you are not getting down those stairs. i think oswald would have been a nervous wreck all morning and somebody should have noticed it. it was no plan at all. the witness across the street said the shooter stopped, seemed calm, didnt seem in a hurry.

100 employees? the best vantage point would be the building, a lot of folks watching from windows, according to the witness. it would seem everybody in the building would hear the shots, everybody would know somebody was coming down the stairs.

In answer to your question Terry, there were two stairs, one in the very front of the building, a large and elegant one that only went to the second floor, and one in the rear, a small one that went up to the seventh floor.

Though Gary Mack can correct me if I am wrong.

In addition, there were three elevators, one in the front for office personell that only went to the fourth floor, and two in the rear, for workers that went the distance.

For some reason, there doesn't seem to be any photos of the rear elevators at all. At least I've never seen them and can't seem to find any.

Can anyone come up with any photos of any of the elevators?

As for the Oswald being the Sixth Floor Sniper, you are accurate in that Oswald's behavior and activities and the few words he spoke to other employees seems to indicate that he didn't have a clue as to when the motorcade was coming, or that it was coming by at all, or even cared.

Unlike the Walker shooting, in which he staked out the scene weeks in advance, took photos of the place and the surrounding areas, had accomplaces, and kept a notebook of details that he later tore up, burned in his bathroom and flushed down the toilet, there doesn't seem to have been any planning or notes or anything at all leading up to the JFK assassination, even though Henry Wade made the remark that it appeared to him that the assassination was well planned out in advance and that Oswald even planned how he would act under interrogation.

While it appears to me that Oswald was not the Sixth Floor Sniper, whoever he was, he does not appear to be in a hurry, and both witnesses (Eunis, Brennan) say he stood back after his last shot and didn't immediately bolt. In addition, if it wasn't the Sniper, someone stuck around and moved boxes around (per Dillard/Powell photos and Brennan & Moneyham statements) some three to four minutes after the last shot, which in the timetable of what was happening, is a long time.

I believe that whoever the Sixth Floor Sniper was, even if it was Oswald, they knew that there was no hurry, even though there were three policeman right outisde the window, sixty feet below, and Brennan and Eunis calling attention, or trying to call attention to the TSBD and Sixth Floor while everyone else's attention was being drawn to the Knoll. Brennan had the front door covered for the whole time he was there after the assassination and called attention to the fifth floor guys as they came out the door.

Although DVP in his Timeline of events, has Oswald leaving the building within five minutes (while Moneyham was eyeballing a man in the Sixth Floor window at the same time), and the building being sealed within a few minutes of that, the building was not sealed when SS SAIC Sorrels arrived from Parkland at approximately 12:45-50 and found a black guy at the back door of the TSBD and no police around whatsoever. I don't know how Army Intel Agent Powell got stuck in side, but it appears that anybody could come and go as they pleased for at least a half hour after the last shots.

The Dallas PD/Sheriff's tape and transcipt of radio broadcasts say that the TSBD was sealed and covered about 1 pm, shortly before the Sniper's Lair was discovered.

It is my contention that whoever the Sixth Floor Sniper was and/or the guy there at 12:34-5 moving boxes around, they were quite confident that they were going to get away.

How did they know that? Why were they so confident?

Did they work there, as Oswald did? Or was he a cop who just waited for the other cops to get there and just joined them in searching for the rifle?

Or did the Sniper, whether it was Oswald or someone else - did they walk or run down the stairs?

Or did, as some have suspected, the Sixth Floor Sniper accompany Dougherty down in one of the back elevators?

Or are there any other possibilities?

As far as I can tell there are a limited number of ways to go from the Sixth Floor of TSBD to the first.

There are the two rear elevators, that were stationary on the fifth floor until Dougherty brought one down to the first.

Then there are the back stairs, that the official scenario has Oswald, being the Sixth Floor Sniper, uses to get to the second floor. Except that he doesn't encounter Doughtery, who was between the sixth and fifth floors, or the two secretaries who descended the stairs from the fourth floor to the first, or the black guys who went from the fifth floor window below the Sixth Floor Sniper's nest and moved to the west side of the building before descending the stairs. Now these stairs are not like the one in the front, with the winding staircase with rails. The back stairs are small and rickety, and only wide enough for one person.

Once on the second floor, according to the officail scenario, Oswald enters the lunchroom vestibule just as Baker sees him in the door window. If this is true, then how come Roy Truly, who was a few steps ahead of Baker, didn't see Oswald enter the door as he should have?

In addition, according to Baker's same day statement, he says he encountered the employee on the fourth floor. Was that suppose to be the Oswald encounter, or is that an encounter with another TSBD employee?

Then there is the Dallas sheriff's officers, some in plain clothes, including the deputy who "discovered" the Sniper's Nest, who said they passed ANOTHER law enforcement officer Descending the steps while they were going up. If so, who was that?

As far as I can ascertain, there were a limited number of ways that anyone could get from the Sixth to the First floor.

Accoding to the official scenario, Oswald descended the back steps from the sixth to second floor, encountered Baker and Truly in the lunchroom, got a coke and then left via the south door of the vestibule. He walked through the office area where he encountered a secretary who exchanged words with him and noticed he had a coke in his hand. He walked to the front of the building and descended the steps and went out the front door unnoticed by Brennan, who swore that he could have identified the Sixth Floor Sniper if he saw him again, but didn't recognize Oswald leave the building as he did recognize the guys from the fifth floor window and had them stopped and questioned.

I'd also like to know what happened to the coke bottle that Oswald had in his hand on the second floor, that disapears before he leaves the building but is not put into evidence? And what became of the Dr. Pepper bottle found next to the Sniper's Lair, that was dusted for fingerprints and should have been put into evidence?

Besides just taking the elevators in the rear, or walking/running down the rear steps, it is possible to go from the Sixth to the Fourth floor, and pass the offices to the front elevator and descend that elevator to the first floor.

There is also a fire escape that no one saw anyone come down on the outside of the building.

And as "Tex"- the ex-service man from New Orleans who visited LA in the fall of 1962, claimed to be able to do, it is possible to rappell down the elevator shaft, as the quickest way down, at least to win a bar room bet, as "Tex" did.

In any case, the TSBD was never properly sealed by DPD for at least a half hour, except when Powell wanted to leave.

And both Oswald and the Sixth Floor Sniper, whoever he was, just waltzed out of there with no problem, and knew from the get-go that they could do that.

Did I miss any possible escape scenarios?

Again, I'd like to see some photos, a photo of the TSBD elevators, if there is one.

Bill Kelly

BILL I DO NOT HAVE ANY PHOTOS OF THE CUSTOMER ELEVATOR, ONLY THE FREIGHT ELEVATORS, IF OF ANY USE..??SOME INFO BELOW...

http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/08-Parks-36-items/first.reports

Jack C. Cason, president of the depository, said the sixth floor was

used solely as a "dead storage" area. It was stacked about eight feet

high with books. Cason, who left the scene about 30 minutes

before the president's caravan rode down Main Street, said the firm

often had difficulty finding employees who had fallen asleep amidst

the stacks of books. "Sometimes it will be three or four days

without anybody going up to the sixth floor to get anything," Cason

said. He said the "dead storage" area was used to keep books

already stocked in the basement and on the second and fourth

floors. Only when they ran out of copies there does anybody

generally go to the sixth floor. Cason said the killer was apparently

"well aware" of the building's layout because there was no elevator

that goes up to the sixth floor from the front entrance. He would

have had to get off the elevator on the fourth floor, walk to the

back of the building and get the stairs or one of the two freight

elevators on the sixth.

FROM AN OLD POST ON RICH'S FORUM..The Dealey Plaza Signs :

Emmett E Hudson

"Whitewash ....The Report on the Warren Commission".1965.......page 44..

Harold Weisberg.

""Six months and a day following the assassination.( May.23/64 ) the Warren Commission had the FBI photographic agent, Lyndal L.Shaneyfelt ( 5 H 138 ) do a photographic re-enactment. The report indicates no reason for such a prolonged delay.

The Secret Service had completed it's re-enactment by Dec. 5. 1963. It is difficult to imagine that the Commission could have loaded Mr.Shaneyfelt with more invalidating conditions..

His re-enactment could only serve one purpose...to try and make credible a reconstruction under which the Commission's thesis, that all the shots came from the sixth floor window, might be possible..In fact, he attempted nothing else…..In order to accomplish this, he had to show that no shot was fired before the frame numbered 210 on the Zapruder film..

To begin with, Shaneyfelt had to work with a black-and-white copy of the original Zapruder colour film. Necessarily, the copies were less clear. Then the reenactments began at 6 am as a concession to traffic. Between the time of the year and the time of the day differences between the mock-up and the real thing, al the values of shadows in photographic intelligence were forfeited, For the precise placing of the camera, mounted on the rifle, and other measuring devices Shaneyfelt had the information supplied by the Commission. He was working in fractions of degrees, yet he had to bade everything on "information furnished us by the Commission, photographs taken by the Dallas Police Department immediately after the assassination....." 5H145.......

Snip:

None of the photos of such are or were in agreement with each other nor the facts, as the testimony also shows...."which none of them at the moment of the assassination showed, this was an immediate and total disqualification of anything he might try...

No matter how fine and expert Shaneyfelt, no matter how excellent his equipment or how careful his associates, his testimony and reconstruction could have no validity"..

“For example, Example Exhibit 887 ( R99) is a camera mounted atop the rifle pointing westward from the sixth-floor window. The window is raised several inches higher than it was shown in the Dillard photograph. Of necessity the rife is mounted on a photographic tripod. But there can be only one necessity for fudging on the window--- to make the whole reconstruction possible where otherwise it would not have been. The tripod is adjustable. The rifle is inside the window. With such an obvious flaw, the exhibit is invalid as is any testimony based on it..Another photograph of the re-enactment printed on page 41 of Life Magazine for Oct. 2,1964, shows that part of the reconstruction was made with the window entirely open...This picture shows the ballistic expert resting his arm on a box incorrectly positioned . It is much too far to the west.... Worse, the rifle is without it's telescopic sight. Can any testimony based upon this reconstruction have any value ?"

Snip...page 45...

"" In addition, the experts “duplicated certain frames of the Zapruder film" and of two others available to the Commission. These appear in the Report on pages 100-8 and are readily available for inspection. Not a single on can be called a duplication, as the most superficial inspection, even without instruments, will show. The angles are grossly different. The elevations are radically wrong.

Even the backgrounds are not the same. One of the best examples is the critically important frame 210 (R102) . These are printed side by side and it will be no problem for any doubting reader to satisfy himself.

This particular illustration is also proof of another inexcusable fault:

The landscaping in the background has been altered.....

Valuable intelligence was thus lost........ In other cases trees which served the same purpose were removed and even the vital signs that figure in all of this identification and testimony were both moved and removed..It is no longer possible to make the most precise photographic reconstruction of the assassination because of this destruction and mutilation of evidence.........."'

Continued..

"Whitewash 11..The Report on the Warren Commission"........Harold Weisberg 1966..

Page 4......

"The Commission staff was not unaware of this, for although there is no indication it ever heeded it's own unavoidable proof or wondered why anyone would dream of destroying evidence in the assassination of an American President, the whole story was blurted out by Emmett E.Hudson, ( witness to the killing )groundskeeper of Dealey Plaza, in his belated testimony of July 22,1964, almost two months after the Commission had originally scheduled the end of it's work..( first mentioned page 45..WhiteWash.) .

Not only were the hedges and shrubbery trimmed, thus destroying all the projection points essential to photographic analysis, but all the road signs absolutely vital in any reconstruction had been moved-------All Three Of Them--------Zapruder had filmed over the top of the center sign ( Stemmons) ..Two of the signs were entirely removed. The one over which Zapruder filmed was replaced, and there is no reason to believe it's replacement is in exactly the same location in the ground or at exactly the same height above it.

Unless both of these conditions, plus the angle of the sign toward Zapruder's lens , were exactly identical with conditions when he took his pictures, no precise reconstruction is possible..

All this funny business with the signs got on the record by accident, not through the dilligence of the Commission or it's counsel. Wesley J.Liebeler was questioning Hudson. Not until eight months to the day after the assassination, but finally Hudson was being questioned. He volunteered this testimony: "Now, they have moved some of those signs. They have moved that R.L. Thornton Freeway sign and put up a Stemmons sign ".....It was this "Stemmons" sign over which Zapruder photographed.

"They have? They have moved it?" Liebeler asked, his cool nonchalance preserved in cood type.

"Yes, sir." replied Hudson.

"That might explain it", Liebeler then said. at the same time, without even seeming so to intend, preserving for both the Commission and history the certain knowledge that the two photographs about which he was interrogating Hudson, one taken at the time of the assassination and the other after it, were not in agreement. ....And here the accidental interest of the Commission in the destruction and mutilation of the most essential evidence ended"..................

Page 130:

"When Hudson reaffirmed his testimony ( and the landscaping also was altered, with the destruction of essential photo-intelligence and analysis reference points in the backgrounds of the pictures)..., the complacent assistant counsel replied, ""That might explain it, because this picture here, No 18, was taken after the assassination and this one was taken at the time----No. 1..""

The "after" refers to the official reconstruction of the crime!.....Hudson's unanticipated blurting out of what is obvious from the most cursory examination of the photographs evidence marks the beginning and the end of the Commission's interest."

*--------*-------*--------*-------*

Here is some info from Jack .....

""in the sixties all such highway signs were 3/4 inch marine plywood, not aluminum like today. In fact,

some of the very old plywood signs are still in use in a few places where they have not needed updating.

One thing very odd about the Stemmons sign is that it has NO ANGLE IRON BRACING on the back. Back

in the 80s I checked a lot of the plywood signs, and virtually all I could find had angle iron braces, especially

if larger than four feet by eight feet, because any splices had to be braced. I have never been able to

get exact dimensions anywhere on the size of the Stemmons sign. Does anyone know?""

Jack

""the sign was 4-feet X 8-feet"", ........I have read on the web.....?

Current Section: Exhibit CE 875

shown to Emmett Hudson..

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=139712

Mr. LIEBELER - There are two signs in picture No. 18, one says, "R.L. Thornton Freeway, keep right." and the other one says, "Fort worth Turnpike, keep right."

Mr. HUDSON - There were two of them that wasn't too far apart right through here - them signs was - one was right along in here and the other one was either further up, I guess. It's not in that picture - I don't believe. Now, they have moved some of those signs. They have moved the R.L. Thornton Freeway sign and put up a Stemmons sign.

Mr. LIEBELER - They have? They have moved it?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - That might explain it, because this picture here, No. 18, was taken after the assassination and this one was taken at the time - No. 1.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/hudson.htm

Below, Emmett Hudson, in Muchmore…frame….White Hat on the middle left on steps and then sitting on the ground after the assassination…

WC recreation photos…shown to Hudson….Signs..

Hudson.an..in.Muchmoore..

The Dillard photo….re the Alyea…information.

Hits to Dealey....

How many shots could there have been ?

The SS called them a “flurry “ of shots..that came into the limo..

Roy H. Kellerman-

Possible hits and misses…

A hit to Elm street behind the motorcade, sounded like a backfire..fireworks....

A hit to the south side sewer cover..DSD Eddie (Buddy).Walthers…..DMD Ed Brewer..

Two furrows in the grass south side, across from fence.. Edna & Wayne Hartman

A hit to the north sidewalk..Aldredge, .reported to FBI….DMNews Carl Freund ..photo..

Not mentioned in WR..

A hit to the curb south side, Tague hit.

A hit to the Stemmons Freeway sign ..no reports rumours..

A last missed shot , after President hit…… Royce G.Skelton, puff of concrete off right fender also DSD Eddie (Buddy) Walthers..

Possibly Tague hit…hit pavement in the left or middle lane..concrete knocked to

the south away from the car… Mrs. Caroline Walther..and possibly more shots,,..not called by W/C..name not within..

but statement made available….WC Vol 24

Hit to the President entrance front neck..

Hit to the President’s back.

Hit to the President front temple

Hit to the President left temple

Hit to John Connally in his right side back.

Hit to John Connally to the wrist.

Hit frontal…to the X100 windshield.,,could be neck entrance shot.

Hit to limo dash board..

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

From the Warren Commission section 9...Paragraph H..

Summary and Conclusions..

“”(h) After careful investigation the Commission has found no credible evidence either that Ruby and Officer Tippit, who was killed by Oswald, knew each other or that Oswald and Tippit knew each other.

Because of the difficulty of proving negatives to a certainty the possibility of others being involved with either Oswald or Ruby cannot be established categorically,

but if there is any such evidence it has been beyond the reach of all the investigative agencies and resources of the United States and has not come to the attention of this Commission. “”

Had they not possibly known there was, or been so positive that there had not been a conspiracy……They would not have

had any reason to have made the above statement, and in some way left it open ended..

in the first place…..

This was admitting to such, some would say….

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wcr/page22.php

“Pictures don’t lie, unless they are made to “..

Harold Weisberg…..

Page 1,,”Whitewash 2 “

The Creation of the Warren Commission

by Donald Gibson

CTKA PROBE Magazine

Volume 3, No, 4

May-June 1996

Most of the people who have done research on or are knowledgeable about the performance of the so-called Warren Commission are convinced that a number of its members and counsel played an important role in the post-assassination cover-up. Those seriously interested in its work, including the author, are convinced that the commission's oversights, distortions, and other shortcomings represent something that is explainable only in terms of the intentions of people such as Allen Dulles, John J. McCloy, J. Lee Rankin, and Gerald Ford.

Although a massive amount of work has been done on the Commission's performance, the story of how the Commission was created has remained incomplete. This story needs to be completed because both reason and the facts indicate that the formation of the Commission, like the performance of elements of the FBI and the media, was as much a part of the cover-up process as was its Report.

Continued:

http://www.ctka.net/pr596-gibson.html

not what your looking for but, dulles and lbj.and the 36th....b

the johnson treatment...b

BULLET HOLES IN THE LIMOUSINE AND EXTRA BULLETS...

COPY THIS INTO YOUR GOOGLE AND IT COMES RIGHT UP... ?B

HI BILL;MILTEER SHOULD HAVE BEEN ARRESTED AND CHARGED NOT RELEASED BUT. YES I WONDERED WHY WHOMEVER DID NOT ASK THE QUESTIONS...DUH... PERHAPS SOMEONE HOPEFULLY WILL CONTACT HIM, THOUGH VINCE DEALS WITH SSA MAINLY PERHAPS HE MAY, I WILL MAKE SURE HE RECEIVES THE INFO..I DID A SEARCH IN THE FILES, BUT HAVE NOTHING ON HIM, NO PHOTO, NOT A WORD SO FAR, BUT WILL CONTINUE, .HOPE ALL IS WELL, TAKE CARE.PLEASE EXCUSE THE CAPS....B.. and THANKYOU MR HOGAN

IRELAND

JFK'S RECEPTION IN EUROPE ; TIME MAGAZINE

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,875007,00.html?xid=rss-mostpopularemail

A FEW OTHERS OF LHO'S CUBBY HOLE...B

HI JIM; YES HE DOES; HERE ARE A COUPLE TAKEN FROM WITHIN THE TEXAS THEATRE, DURING THE TUSSLE FROM WHAT YOU CAN SEE OF HIS EXPRESSION, I THINK IT WAS A ROUGH HOUSING,AND FROM SOME DESCRIPTIONS THAT HAVE BEEN GIVEN IN BOOKS, ETC, THERE ARE ALSO SOME OTHERS TAKEN AT THE DPD THAT SHOW HIM PRETTY ROUGHED UP IMO...PLEASE EXCUSE THE CAPS.....B

REPORT CARD ON IDENTIFCATION OF LHO..AND ARREST WARRANT....B

LHO COMPLAINING; FROM A VIDEO FRAME, I BELIEVE.NOTE TIME ON THIS ARREST REPORT... .B

It's interesting how you ignore the fact that Scoggins managed to identify Oswald's smashed up face in one of the most unethical and unfair lineups ... [snipping the remainder of Farley's silly anti-DPD tirade re: the lineups]...

LOL. Oh, sure. His face was bloodied and "smashed up" to an absolute pulp by those evil DPD bastards, wasn't it Lee? I can hardly tell that it's Oswald at all here, his face is so pulp-like. Get real:

Your MO is so predictable.

So is yours. I can see through you like a great-big ol' sheet of Reynold's Wrap.

LOL LOL LOL

Putting words in people's mouths again eh, Dave? I never said "to an absolute pulp." He had a long bruised cut on his head. He had a bruised a slightly cut nose that was bringing up two "panda" black eyes and his left eye was quite badly swollen and cut. He also had a bad bruise on the back of his right neck. He was wearing a sweaty and dirty t-shirt and he gave his real name and where he worked.

You're right. Who would ever pick Oswald out of this lineup;

LEE; HERE IS THE SIDE VIEW... B