Larry Hancock

Ernie, not to be ill mannered but the answers to your questions are in my books, in particular Someone Would Have Talked addresses your most basic question. 1. Do you think the inner circle folks ever discussed or mentioned their plot (before or after the fact) with ANY of their relatives (such as wife, husband, brother, sister, father, mother, children, uncle, cousin?) .... I view the conspiracy in a much more complex, than inner circle/outer circle, evolving in an iterative fashion with instigators and operators, compartmentalized and organized in subsets for specific tasks. Nothing as simple as an inner an outer circle. Between SWHT and NEXUS I offer my analysis of who talked to whom, before and after. 2. Do you think the inner circle folks ever discussed or mentioned their plot (before or after the fact) with anybody NOT involved in the plot (such as trusted friends, neighbors, co-workers?) .....the answer, although not in the "inner circle" paradigm is yes, which is the reason for the title of Someone Would Have Talked. I can only offer the books to you in full answer to your question, if you wish to read them and continue the dialog I will be happy to do that as I have time. I've moved on to other research projects and am in the midst of my fifth book on Cold War history, I'm afraid I just don't have the time or inclination for philosophical questions I've already tried to tackle in my JFK books....and by the way, the introduction to SWHT actually discusses the points you raise here since they were some of the first issues that occurred to me as well. Larry

Since I devote the better part of two chapters involving a lot of pages to this I'll do my best here but it will be abbreviated. The short answer is that the attack in Dallas had a secondary element that would have tied Oswald either directly acting for Castro's agents or at a minimum known to and incited by those agents. That was supposed to raise public outrage to the point of demanding military action against Cuba. Whether or not that was truly a goal of the high level figures who stimulated the attack or just a sop to the Cuban exiles involved is uncertain. I'm told that Martino and possibly others eventually began to think that perhaps that they had simply been manipulated and that was never a primary goal at all - it was just about eliminating JFK. In their original view the frame was supposed to be sold enough that it would stimulate a spasm type response without too much thinking or consideration - and I can show you at least one major Texas newspaper whose headline was (paraphrase from memory - Castro Supporter Kills President). Given the general feeling of the nation only a year after the Cuban missile crisis, its possible that it might not have been that hard a sell. Indeed the suppression of a true conspiracy investigation, directed by Johnson himself, was based in the fact that such an investigation might indeed fan calls for action against a communist conspiracy....by the Cubans, by the Russians, but either way it could lead to war. One of the problems is that we don't know all the details of the plan to fully frame Oswald immediately following the attack, Martino relates that his capture aborted that plan...he probably did not know the details himself. In SWHT I speculate on certain elements that might have been used in the frame but it is truly just speculation. As to adverse consequences, what could they be? About the only thing I can think of is that it would damage their reputation as FBI informants in the future, hardly a real concern for those involved - some of whom were driven very much by emotion, not by consideration of long term consequences.

Ernie, I'm thinking you have not read SWHT but just in case...the answer to number 1 is quite easy. Martino's early statements were made specifically to tie Fidel Castro to Lee Oswald and for that matter to Jack Ruby. He wanted to point the thread of conspiracy to Castro and initially the FBI and Director Hoover were very interested in that connection. The problem was that Martino was working after the fact, the plan to tie Oswald to Castro more tightly had aborted in Dallas with Oswald's capture. So Martino and others were doing their best to make up for that, it was a pick up effort lacking any hard data and when Martino could not provide that, the FBI lost interest. From that point on Martino just shut up about the whole thing, only revealing a small part of his involvement to family members early on. He provided further detail - still quite limited - to two long time friends not long before his death. Clearly he never intended it to go further, they both described his remarks more in the nature of a reminiscence. If the HSCA had not come along and one of them determine to share the information anonymously, nothing more would ever have been heard of his remarks. As to number two, for me the best explanation for me is being able to determine the context of the difference between the two statements, the situational effect. If I can clearly define two separate sets of motives for the statements, each related strictly to the timing and context of the statement, then I can reach a subjective conclusion. I would also caution that Martino himself was an eyewitness to only his activities, self admittedly had only a very limited view of the conspiracy plus a bit of gossip he no doubt heard - he was in no way a major figure in the conspiracy or the actual attack. Note, I qualify the my both my criteria and intepretation as subjective. My view of what is accurate and truthful is specifically my own, I share it but have no interest in evangelizing it nor spending too much time arguing the logic or my interpretations....the qualification is not to appear to be difficult, but merely to be forthright, Larry

Paul, in your quest for names I would refer you to NEXUS, Its last few chapters and the epilogue get relatively specific, it consolidates much of what is spread throughout SWHT. I would also refer you to the documents and photos available at www.larry-hancock.com If they are still there and somebody hasn't hacked the site again this week, honestly I don't check it that often. I also need to correct you in regard to John Martino, who was never connected to the CIA in any fashion. He was tightly connected to a number of activist Cuban exiles, particularly to those in Alpha 66. He helped bring their personnel on to the TILT mission...which was supported by JMWAVE but only at the behest and pressure of William Pawley. Martino had a limited knowledge of the conspiracy, which he himself made stressed, however he was exactly the type of compartmentalized field team person - acting as a courier to Dallas - that represents the "street" level in the Dallas attack. As to Nagell, his story is truly complex but again I have to make the point very clear. He knew about Cuban exiles representing themselves as Castro agents contacting Oswald in New Orleans and recruiting him for some action in September in the Washington area. That is all he knew and I make no use of him as a source on the attack in Dallas, only on the initial identification of Oswald as a potential patsy by Cuban exiles. Those individuals and that action may not have translated to the Dallas attack at all, but it does indicate that Oswald was a known factor to Cuban exiles in Miami, as does the Parrot Jungle incident. -- Larry

This does seem like it could go on forever Paul so let me try and be succinct. You keep referring to my hypothetical Dallas team as abstract, since you have read SWHT you know that I actually name at least three people who I present as having gone to Dallas for the attack, with proof they were in Dallas. In SWHT and NEXUS I laid out the entire generation of the plot from its instigation by Angleton, passed through Harvey to Morales and Robertson. In addition to that on my web site and in SWHT I've identified two likely candidates to have impersonated Oswald in various places - although that would have been held compartmentalized from the tactical team doing the shooting. In SWHT I also identity at least two possible suspects that Ruby might have connected the team with for peripheral tasks, both were in the DPD. I also name perhaps half a dozen Cuban exiles associated with JMWAVE operations who could have been recruited, but what I have no way of knowing is exactly who was on the sniper team organized to attack Castro in 1963. Therefore there is no way for me to boil this down to a set of exact names - and frankly that's not really critical to understanding the conspiracy. I also spell out the names of at least three individuals who very likely do/did know the names of at least some of them and I presented the premise that de Torres acted as a trip wire and cover in Florida, certainly he knew some details. As to New Orleans, again in SWHT I lay out the scenario of how Oswald was used in an anti-FPCC counter intel and propaganda effort, jointly by the FBI and CIA and then by Phillips alone. What happened in NO was classic stuff that had been used in other ops against the FPCC, that's in SWHT as well. What was particularly dangerous in the Garrison investigation - as seen in internal CIA memos - was the number of folks who in NO who had connections to prior, BOP and later CIA ops against Cuba. The Agency was very worried about details of covert ops those guys might spill - not talking about Ferrie here, talking about at least one guy Garrison identified who was a real CIA boat guide for infiltration missions. The FBI was equally worried about exposure to their contacts with Oswald. So both groups torpedoed Garrison. But outside that, having nothing to do with either, Mr. de Torres intercepted Garrisons people in Miami early on when Garrison was looking for Oswald/Cuban exile connections and totally interdicted that investigation as well as exposing the whole thing to the press....all that is in SWHT as well. The only real plot we know about in NO is the plot that the exiles pretending to be Cuban agents put together using Oswald and that was targeted for the DC area in September. It aborted primarily because Nagell showed up, tried to push his way in to collect information, was way to obvious...we know from Nagell that he tried to warn of that plot but we have no confirmation of where the warning reached - what we do know is the FBI was obviously watching some exiles who they felt dangerous to JFK and when those guys went to Chicago before his visit there they even warned the Secret Service...perhaps Nagell's warning had actually made it to somebody. . -- which is about all I have to say, the rest of the detail is in the books... Larry

Paul, I think I must have missed this along the way. Could you run past me the information from Walkers files circa April 63 of his interest in Lee Harvey Oswald...that would be appreciated. Also for yet more clarification: "As for your works on Walker, Larry, I do appreciate them -- very much. I'm surprised that you consider him to be virtually untouchable by a JFK murder team -- because of his homosexuality -- when actually this did not prevent that same murder team from using such assets as Clay Shaw or David Ferrie (among others) in New Orleans." ....my remark had nothing to do with Walkers homosexuality per se but everything to do with the fact that it was reportedly well known among elements of the DPD including its subversives unit - where my source served - that was because at the time they considered it a potential exposure to blackmail so they monitored those who circulated in those circles as general surveillance. My point is simply that sort of known visibility/surveillance would discourage anyone from tactical connection to Walker. In that same vein, I personally do not feel that the tactical team who carried out the attack in Dallas had any contact with either Shaw or Ferrie. What gossip either man may have heard about plans to attack Kennedy - there that gossip was widespread in many circles - either before or after is another story entirely. Gerry Hemming made an interesting comment to that effect (paraphrased) when he said that afterwards many people began to wonder if they had some connection to the attack because of remarks they had heard prior to it. Some apparently even tried to collect money from ultra right figures like Hunt whose sons had been talking about bounties on JFK, taking credit after the fact.

Paul, I have to qualify a bit more just to be clear. Actually I've followed Harry's remarks and postings from his very earliest days. I bought the first material in print about his experiences and observed some of his very first online posts about both Canadians and the LDS; I did find those remarks inscrutable and still do. Still, I've followed his remarks since that time as well as the actual FBI documents which Ernie has made available and analyzed. I also investigated Walker and his right wing associates to the extent of the material then available, as you recall I brought certain things about Walker and his involvement with Cuban exiles in Florida in the summer of 1963 to your attention. As far as not considering him competent in 1963, I'm not sure exactly how to define that, perhaps the word I would use would be effectual. I can tell you that I talked at length with one Dallas police reserve officer who gave me a tour of the places in which DPD used to observe Walker circa 1963 including a gay bar on the East side and a set of fairly secluded public restrooms. I had not really wanted to bring that up and of course its strictly anecdotal but if true I can tell you that sort of visibility/image would make him anathema to any serious tactical team going to Dallas. I continue to monitor your posts about Harry and Walker, new information is always educational. I simply haven't found any of it to actually modify own view of how the Dallas assassination came about or what went down on the ground in Dallas. However, as you say, my analyses are my own and I'm happy to leave everyone else with their own. Beyond that, in regard to the study of the ultra-right in the 1960's, I think my and Stu's work presented in The Awful Grace of God illustrates a reasonably deep study of the groups and individuals who were truly dangerous in terms of actual attacks and assassination attempts - in contrast to those who just kept talking about such things. If you want to find a real rifle team trained and willing to go after JFK we identify them in that book. That of course is another story entirely but I thought I should at least mention that its not that I have ignored the ultra-right in my research. -- Larry.

I think this remains an open question -- what exactly was the Dallas contact tasked to do -- in as much detail as possible? ................................... Paul, the best I can do with that sort of question is to reference it against similar operations and against some of what we do know about Jack Ruby. As I've mentioned before, Veciana tells us that the attack in Dallas was very similar to an abortive attack against Castro in Latin America. The people they used as contacts there were Cuban exiles working with a local detective agency/security firm. The had contacts with the local police and obtained information on the locations where Castro would be and to some extent what sort of security he would have at each location and as he traveled. In the case of Dallas, the primary task would be much the same, getting details on the locations to be visited, what security has been like in the past for political events, what routes have been used. That was easy enough in Dallas and could have been done in the last days from reports in the paper but the key would be someone who could circulate well within all areas of DPD and just gossip about who was working what detail for the trip, where the press were going to be....just listening to the locals complain about security and the extra work would give you most of what you needed. Then talking to some of the local news folks about what they had heard about plans to cover the visit. Ruby knew lots of cops and lots of press folks, he was a character, always chatting folks up, selling his gimmicks etc, his asking questions would ring no bells with anyone. To verify that we know he did have good contacts inside DPD, he even knew Oswald was originally supposed to be moved on Sat afternoon but that got cancelled. And we know it because he was gossiping with local press folks. That's probably a minimum and may be all they needed but Ruby could provide more, if they decided not to transport their weapons he could tell them where to buy weapons with no questions asked, he could tell them what cops were available for minor tasks - off duty of course. If they were interested in a particular building or location he could find out all about who worked there or who parked where or who was normally at what job during the day....were their people normally in the parking lots...he could find that out. If they needed access to a building he might know who to contact.....for that matter we have no idea which TSBD employees might have been visitors to Ruby's club or which of them might have been doing drugs or something else that would make them open to a little favor like getting someone upstairs, etc. That's on the outside and if he did those thing it would probably have been totally compartmentalized from the actual tactical team. The point I'm trying to make is a local contact is a guy who knows the ground, who knows people, who can ask questions without raising any flags at all because he does that all the time and who is most definitely somebody who has a very low profile. For that matter a good local contact might well be the same sort of guy who provides info to the police on the side, a low level informant...which of course Ruby was. -- Larry

Paul, I certainly don't claim to be an expert on para-military operations, I'm an Air Force vet with a career field specialization in communications technology. On the other hand I've spent a fair amount of time study how the paramilitary professionals work....people you read about working with the most hand picked and effective Cuban exiles in the early 1960's. The military missions they ran into Cuba did not require point men on the ground, that's the sort of thing that gets people compromised - and was the major problem with infiltrations before the Bay of Pigs. An para-military assassination team going to Dallas would desire some local intelligence, but as far as the attack itself, that is their skill and their business. They would not want a local "point man", and would do everything in the world not to meet or associate with any individual suspected of being under any form of FBI, DPD, ATF or other type of agency or law enforcement observation. Their job is focused, find ambush sites, prepare the attack, arrange for diversions as needed and carry out the attack. Now, there may have been others traveling to Dallas for separate agenda's relating to framing Lee Oswald, that would be compartmentalized, might well require some money and a courier - as Martino described himself. But again, they want to limit their local contacts - and exposure - as much as possible, working though cut outs and people who would appear to be doing business as usual....given Jack Ruby's varied activities he would have made a fine conduit, spread a little money, arrange a few innocuous activities that nobody would understand - until after the assassination. But that would be as isolated from the attack team as possible. And to answer your question, no, political connections inside DPD are the last thing you want since they show up in investigations. What you want is very simple, to access one or more officers or even detectives known to do a few marginally legal activities on the side...for money. If they have done a couple of things that would make them subject to blackmail, even better. -- Larry

Paul, a small correction, in my scenario Ruby was necessary only for local intelligence on the city, on the DPD and who was who in Dallas. I would never place him as the point man for the tactical operation itself. He was simply someone whose services could be bought through the correct cut outs and who would be handy for minor local tasks that might come up, ...in other words, a gopher but a gopher who knew people in some interesting places such as DPD As you know from SWHT, I discuss the fact that his role changed dramatically on the afternoon of Nov. 22, suggesting that he was actually one of the very few controllable resources immediately available in Dallas after Oswald was taken into custody. -- Larry

I'm glad you enjoyed it Paul, I suppose about the only comment I'd add is that if you complete the rest of the book, you will see that the Artime/Amworld project was probably not the most intense covert regime change project in the nation's history, certainly Chile, Nicaragua, and others come to mind. All in all it was probably equal to the effort in Angola. But that's a much longer and larger story. In addition, far more money, energy and casualties were devoted to other covert projects....Tibet and Laos are examples in Indochina. I also need to note that much of chapter 12 comes courtesy of primary research by Gary Murr and he definitely deserves the credit for opening the door on AMWORLD to an extent that no other researcher or historian has done to date, all based on release of operational documents.. There remains a huge amount of un-mined information in those documents - Gary and Bill Simpich are among only a handful of people doing work on that raw historical data.

David, two obvious choices....the pick up that "stalled" near the overpass and was towed away only a bit before the motorcade arrived....and a series of cars and light trucks pulled off the access ramp to Stemmons freeway and immediately following the approach. All would be fine candidates, the pick up the best. However given that both the trade center and parkland may have been back ups, cars parked close enough to the road at the approaches to either would work.

Paul, I think a point in the early time frame of the Cuba project that is important to mention is that the Castro assassination was first proposed by J.C. King and endorsed - albeit reworded - by Dulles who passed it on up the chain of command. Given that Ike approved the Cuba project and that Ike had previously told Dulles to eliminate Luemumba, I can't help but think that it was assumed he intended a similar option for Castro. With all the debate over JFK approving an assassination, everyone seems to forget the actual proposal and endorsement occurred before JFK took office.

The following would probably be useful in evaluating Keith Gilbert's associations... http://greatwhitedesert.org/dir/index.php?title=Adolf_Hitler_Was_Elijah

Good deal Paul, one of the areas to watch is specifically the differences in operational skills between many of the familiar names that we toss about all the time. Its true that Hunt, Phillips, Morales and Robertson were all in the Directorate of Plans, the clandestine operations service. But the P-P group ranged from political action types (like Hunt) through the psych warfare and propaganda specialist like Phillips to the people like Phillips and Morales who wore multiple hats like counter intelligence and on to the real paramilitary operations guys, trainers and managers like Morales and pure field action officers like Robertson who worked though surrogates and bonded closely with them. We really do gloss over matters if we broadly credit these folks with the same skills ..and indeed the same sorts of contacts and even reputations.... Larry

Paul, the existence of a CIA depot in San Antonio has been known for some time; we write about a few such in SW. Normally they are relatively small depot areas of much larger Army depots, dating back to WWII. The AK-47's are no surprise because the CIA uses them to store "deniable" weapons purchased in the world arms markets...you don't send American military weapons into deniable operations (well only when you are as stupid as say the BOP affair). More details often emerge from either former personnel or even though environmental impact studies. In one known operation from the San Antonio depot, three jet transport Starlifter flights carried the initial deniable arms shipments directly to Kenshasha, Zaire to support the Angola operation initiated by Henry Kissinger. You will find more detail on the depot at the link below: http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/midwest.pdf

Paul, I suggest you also read chapters 6 and 7 as that will introduce some familiar names and give you some important history that carried over to the Cuba project. You will also want to read the Autonomous and Deniable chapter which carries through to the final phase of the anti-Castro effort in 63/64. -- Larry

Paul, I think you will be surprised, in later administrations, to what extent the Secretary of State, individual national security advisers and in some instances political associates have a major influence in the presidents decisions. We illustrate many instances in covert ops where such individuals totally overrode both CIA and military positions. Of course I am a firm believer in Deep Politics and the extent to which power brokers shape things...many times you cannot totally connect those dots, sometimes you can make a stab at it. Readers will be surprised at the apparent influence held by JC King, during both the Eisenhower and Kennedy Administrations - he was the first to propose killing Castro, at a point when both Eisenhower and Dulles had no particular opinion. We go on to show King's close association with certain corporate leaders and the influence they had on him. It would be foolish to think there are not power brokers, that's the nature of politics hence a major factor in "governance". However often they are easy to flush out simply by following the relationship between certain activities and profit impact. In any event I won't belabor the point here but in 600 pages I think we do a pretty good job of documenting the obvious "influences" in each administration, who most definitely what I had assumed when I began the research. And everyone can add there own preferred amount of conspiracy to that - sort of like sprinkles...grin. Stu and I just restricted ourselves to the layers the historical record reveals, certainly that is not the whole picture - but its a darn big one even at that. Larry

Paul, the entire decision making process and who initiated and drove what covert operations are the subject of the some 600 pages in Shadow Warfare; it also traces the evolution of the CIA's influence. The book covers the period from 1940 to 2013; it is a deep book and not necessarily an easy read and I suspect it will not be nearly conspiratorial enough for some - on the other hand, if you want the aspects which can be documented and which are factual, it would be a good tutorial for the questions you raise in your post. For that matter, it also addresses the legal context of covert operations, based in the National Security act of 1947, again a complex topic but one that explains why many of today's current military operations against jihadi terrorism are conducted under that legal code rather than the military code - especially given that Congress has consistently refused to actually declare a state of war, greatly complicating the legal context of all such operations from 2001 to the present. -- Larry

I don't know Bill, its written to say that "she" (Miss Garner) saw the policeman and Truly run up the stairs. Does that mean she saw them run by her on the fourth floor as she was standing there? Did she really just wait their by the stairs all the time it took for the women to go downstairs, for Truly and the policeman to come upstairs, stop to encounter Oswald on the second floor, question him and then start up the stairs again. upstairs...did she see the other person Truly mentioned seeing. It certainly raises a number of questions for me...did she speak to Truly? What about seeing other people on the stairs if she was she stayed by the steps, there were no doors on the stairway, wonder who else ran by? Seems like a very interesting witness who should have been asked a few more questions...or was she, just not familiar with her...... Larry

Robin, am I reading this incorrectly or is Miss Garner saying that she went upstairs along with Truly and the policeman? That would be something a bit new? -- Larry

Paul, I was not challenging anything, I was simply providing information on de Torres for your reference since it had come up in discussion on the thread. I'll cease doing that from this point on. You clearly have a path you wish to follow and I have no wish to divert you from it.

Paul, you could only disqualify de Torres if you believed his remark about knowing Odio in Cuba. Most likely, if he did go to Dallas that would have been a lie to cover up his motive. If you look into it further you find that there would have been an immense social gulf between his family and hers. Also, de Torres is the real deal, you can find him present on exile boat missions and with true contacts to the real operation players in the exile community. Basically he was he read deal as compared to Hall who was nothing but a talker... Heck Hall was so general mistrusted that the John Birch society guys in California made him take a polygraph before they would even let him address their group. On the other hand de Torres had truly deep connections and appeared to have been widely trusted by the most activist groups ranging from Commandos L to Alpha 66....

Paul, you might wish to follow up with Joan Mellon's book, I don't recall the details but what I do recall is at some point either Murgado or de Torres said that de Torres had gone to Dallas, in fact it went much further than that with de Torres claiming he had known Sylvia Odio in Cuba and was interested in looking her up again and possibly dating her... I'm offering no opinion on that but there certainly has been discussion of de Torres in Dallas and visiting Odio. http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKtorres.htm

Be nice Robert, in this instance the lady was the victim of a very bad choice of angles by the photographer. Sort of goes to prove just because somebody is taking pictures they are not necessarily giving good advice to their subject....probably an important point to remember in today's era of phone cameras...