Larry Hancock

Yes Tim, we have.... as used in Lamar's documents it refers to the head of the US government, the decision makers, Wash DC i.e. the Kennedy administration. It may also have been used at other times to refer to other administrations... but it clearly relates to the President and his administration. Its a lot more accurate than Hoovers SOG... -- Larry

Tim, there is no disclosure of active CIA agents and no disclosure of CIA agent names which are not eaisly searchable on NARA...which I keep highly recommending. The first test at vetting Wheaton was simply to search released documents for names of the CIA officer and contract employees he identified circa 1963. The full names were quickly found in a simple search, as well as details of their activities with the CIA in 1963/64. -- Larry

John, I have no proof it was the same Howard Davis but it seems pretty likely.. As to Anne, we have failed to locate her up to this point; we were told she left the ARRB to take a particular job opening - public defender I think. Nothing mysterious about her departure as far as we can determine. If anyone can locate her I'd like to hear from them by email. Wheaton very much wanted to talk to her further and had written the ARRB about her follow-up. He received nothing other than a form letter type reply thanking him for his interest. -- Larry Has anyone tried to speak to Anne Buttimer? As Chief Investigator of the ARRB she was in a position to obtain important information. I wonder if the CIA got her moved. Is this Gerry Hemming's mate, Howard K. Davis? http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKdavisH.htm

An observation and then further information about Davidson. The observation is that its often actually misleading to speculate without appropriate data. In regard to the ARRB, if you really want to find out how they handled Wheaton's informartion you can go to NARA, go through the files and talk to those involved when you can find them. We have already done that to some extent and I can assure Tim that one obvious reaon that the ARRB never went further with this is that Buttermer never wrote a final report on the subject, she was in the midst of this and other work and left the ARRB before any of it was concluded. In fact I have a rather frustrated memo from her listing many subjects she was investigating (most in New Orleans) where she was getting stonewalled and receiving insufficient help to bring anything to closure. Its a fascinating list and one of the presentations at the Lancer conference was based on only two of the many leads on that list....New Orleans leads. Not long after that memo Buttermer literally left the ARRB and there is no sign that anyone else was ever assigned her projects, all of them seem to simply stop. Although that's hard to tell based on how the files were collected and organized. Now on Davidson, as background, I have an FBI and a CIA file, both from 1959. As with many people, Davidson seems to have served as an informant to the FBI and CIA...perhaps to buy good will....but more clearly to preserve some distance where he might be protected as an informant. The FBI memo in question even has a footnote that suggests this worked..."Upon receipt of data... we told Miami not to have informant become involved because of his possible arrest by Customs." This incident involved a request from Howard Davis to purchase 24 .50 cal machine guns for use by a Cuban exile revolutionary group. Davidson offered to act as a go between in obtaining the arms and go to Munitions Control if Davis would write a letter on the subject... Davis would not. However this incident seems to verify that Davidson was known and active in arms sales. The separate CIA memo notes that Davidson was a registered agent of Nicaragua and was working with Cuban counterrevolutionary leaders in Miami. Davidson was assisting these leaders and was making arrangements for them in Washington. The leaders included Jose Fujol and Francisco Comceiro. The two had helped Diaz Lanz defect. ...based on these its pretty clear that Davidson was engaged in his craft early on with the exile revolutionaries. -- Larry

John, I have a couple of documents that show from time to time Davidson did provide information to the FBI and CIA. In 1959 he reported that Howard Davis had contacted him about needing 24 50 cal machine guns. Davidson offered to get Munitions Control authority for the guns if Davis would give him a letter....apparently it was not unusual for Davidson to help people obtain weapons. A CIA report describes Davidson as a registered agent of Nicaragua and describes Davidson as being in contact with Cuban exile leaders in 1959 ....relating to arms purchases. Names mentioned included Francisco Rodrguez, Diaz Lanz and Jose Fujol. Davidson was reporting these contacts to CIA. This report also contained remarks about a Government in Exile. Seems like Davidson had been involved in these sorts of affairs for some time. -- Larry I thought this passage from Anne Buttimer's report on her meeting with Gene Wheaton on 11th July, 1995 (dated 12th July, 1995) could be relevant to your point about Marcello. Over the course of a year or a year and one-half his friend told him about his activities with training Cuban insurgency groups. Wheaton said he also got to know many of the Cubans who had been his friend's soldiers/operatives when the Cubans visited in Virginia from their homes in Miami. His friend and the Cubans confirmed to Wheaton they assassinated JFK. Wheaton's friend said he trained the Cubans who pulled the triggers. Wheaton said the street level Cubans felt JFK was a traitor after the Bay of Pigs and wanted to kill him. People "above the Cubans" wanted JFK killed for other reasons. Wheaton said we must look at his friend and his associates in order to know what really happened to JFK. One of those associates was I. Irving Davidson who was/is "the bag man for the intelligence community." Davidson runs a group called the Timber Center which handles payoffs and payments for the CIA, the NSA and the Pentagon. He is a friend of Jack Anderson's and was indicted with Carlos Marcello in the 1980's on a Teamster's kick-back charge. Davidson is a non-practicing attorney in Washington D.C. He is now about 70 years old. Have you come across the name Irving Davidson in your research?

Just going to jump in here with a couple of thoughts in regards to David's revue, specifically as they relate to his assessment of Lamar's description of a coup project. 1) We know that JFK was willing to take an extreme political risk in his exploratory contacts with Castro. In fact RFK was concerned enough about it to comment that if Congress knew about it there could be extremely serious consequences. And we know that this approach was not done through standard channels i.e. State. In fact the further the contacts went the more personal they got, involving individuals trusted by JFK but with no government affiliation and in one case a foreign national. Definitely an end run around "channels". If JFK was willing to engage in that sort of activity in pursuit of some type of settlement which would at best move Castro into a neutral position, why is it impossible to presume that he would have taken a high risk, ultra covert gamble on encouraging a coup which would have eliminated Castro? The coup plan Lamar describes involved only a very few personal contacts...all covert... with a senior Cuban leader. And none involving State nor Defense. Is that so very different? And if Congress found out they would have voted JFK a medal. However, as I read Lamar there would have been no US involvement at all until at some point where the coup leader sadly announced the death of both Fidel and Raoul and the formation of a new government. In a way it seems a lot lower risk scenario than the peace gambit. 2) If there was really nothing to the coup plan, other than Harry William's imagination, why among all the people in the world, would RFK contact him the afternoon following JFK's murder. What in the world would even bring Harry William's to RFK's mind at that time if there was not something serious between the Kennedy's and Harry? Doesn't that telephone call from RFK to Harry serve to confirm Harry as a serious source? Another thing that seems to me important to explain if there was not any serious planning going on for support of a coup is the Presidential trip to Tampa and the President's STRIKE command meeting there. That seems rather unique, especially given what we know now about the concerns about threats in both Miami and Tampa. Chicago was cancelled - but not Tampa? It may be even more interesting considering the message out of Texas from some military intelligence organization to STRIKE command on November 22. -- Larry

Tim, let me try this again. Gilberto Lopez was supposed to look suspicious, he was supposed to point toward Castro. He may well have been intended to be a diversion by any security personnel looking for Cuban agents doing surveillance or preparing for an attack on JFK. To get beyond that, I'd love to see you do some real research on him. Do a monograph giving us his family background, his education and training, the history and sequence of his moves. What his wife said about him; what he said about going to visit his mother in Cuba. His efforts to obtain an entry visa; how long that took and when he actually got it. You would find all that in Ultimage Sacrifice plus the documents it cites. Also consider his possible value to US intelligence because of his brother...and factor in the intel memos on him that Lamar cites. Then chart out the informant reports and investigations....who said he was where, who said he was suspicious for what reason. And show us who those informants connect to....Trafficante perhaps?.....Morales perhaps?......CIA domestic ops? Then perhaps we can really discuss who if anyone was pulling his strings. And judge if first paragraph is correct. Or if you still consider him a viable Castro agent and possible assassination participant (and in what role...certainly as a courier he would have been about as covert as Oswald).....so far the record shows that FPCC members were being used by US intel not Cuban (reference AM/SANTA joint FBI-CIA project). -- by the way, Happy Holidays.

Tim, Lamar covers that point in extensive detail in the book so I gather you haven't read it yet? Start with the fact that Lopez was in the US and had been trying for over a year to get into Cuba to visit his ailing mother - and shows absolutely no signes of having any training or experience in covert operations much less as an actual shooter or participant. Go on with his having made him so visible by his efforts to get to Cuba that there document references suggesting he may even have been a recruitment target for US intel. Then go to the fact that virtually all the reports on him are second or third hand...but starting with reports from Morales AMOT's. Add in the fact that although he was reported in Chicago, Tampa and Dallas but that there were no actual sightings in any of the cities about all you are left with is that he a) got the paperwork he needed to transit to Cuba after a year or more of trying and did go to Cuba as soon as he received it. I think that I suggested ages ago that if you want to use him as a possible Castro agent you need to get the actual documents and evaluate them yourself....as Lamar has done to reach his conclusions. Perhaps the most interesting thing is that Morales and company would have been in an ideal position to know about Lopez and generate the reports that would make him look suspicious. ......that's a very abbrieviated synopsis of Lamar's coverage...although as I read it he is more inclined to see Lopez as being set up by Trafficante. Personally that's one of the areas where I think forcing everything to a Mafia theme makes less sense than a conspiracy involving Roselli and Morales as principals. Call that you will...maybe "MAFCIA"...grin. -- Larry

John, I doubt that Jenkins was Morales boss in 1963 as Morales was reporting directly to Shackley on his JM/WAVE work and probably had a dotted line report to Fitzgerald follwoing the departure of Harvey. That appears to have been in support of the continued Castro assassination effort which seems to have gone on after it was officially shut down with the departure of Harvey. The Harvey-Roselli meeting down there in the spring seems to have been related to this compartmentalized continuation as it occured away from JM/WAVE yet was conducted under the ZR/RIFLE crypt. If you do a NARA search on Jenkins you will find that in 1963 he was indeed working with Quintero but that was on the AMWORLD project that Lemar addresses in detail in his book. Jenkins was also closely associated with Artime in the latter half of 1963. Morales organized special paramilitary training for both Artime and Quintero so all parties clearly knew each other. However AMWORLD was very much separately from JM/WAVE except when it required certain operational support. Documents relating to what I've just described will be made available in conjunction with my second edition.

Owen, first, there are instances of Chrisman using government stationary, entirely different from the Easy papers (although those are indeed positioned to be official papers regardless of the lack of stationary); however, it seems to me that you've satisfied yourself on these issues so I don't intend to belabor the point. You probably have Beckham's actual police arrest record, the details of his going AWOL from Fort Leonard Wood and a host of other documents pertaining to the Beckham and Chrisman scams....my intent was to advise readers to check into such things and draw their own conclusions. Looks like you have, your'e satisfied and I'll leave it to others to pursue or not... -- Larry uote name='Owen Parsons' date='Nov 24 2005, 04:59 PM' post='46273'] I think you should note that Beckham also places Shaw in Gill's offices at the time the assignment was given. I don't really know how you can say his story doesn't implicate Shaw. People don't always think ahead or operate at the peak of their mental faculties. Beckham was also being endowed with a dubious profile through his checking into mental hospitals at Jack Martin's urging, part of the "sheep dipping" process. If Beckham were to come forward, he could easily be discredited with this information. This is what I am getting at when I talk about him being set up as a backup patsy. I don't think that there is a great deal of chance that he would be caught for delivering an envelope. And even if he was "caught" the conspirators had already succeeded in making him look like a nut. I think Beckham would be a pretty safe bet. Also, there is quite a bit of evidence placing Oswald in the presence of conspirators. As an example, I think most researchers credit the Antonio Veciana story, and you yourself have said that Mellen did good work on the Clinton incident. I didn't say it bolstered his credibility, but its a perfectly feasible answer to your objection. Read her story again. It is Ferrie's material that is being cleaned out of the office, not Gill's. Gill apparently went into panic mode after Ferrie was taken into custody, and quickly moved to sweep everything relating to Ferrie up. Apparently it occured to him that Ferrie might not have been so careful as he was. I am also impressed with how well this story supports Beckham's, though it is independent of it. Larry: Oh, believe me, I'm quite familiar with Crisman's various activities and life story. I have a few thoughts on it. I think its quite likely that the UFO-spewing-molten-slag story was just cover for something more prosaic, namely the dumping of toxic waste. Mellen suggests this and I think Crisman himself later said as much. I would also note that his tales of fighting robots ("Deros") in underground caverns sent via letter to one of Raymond Palmer's magazines, came right on the heels of the UFO story, before any real investigation of it had started, and were later mocked in a major magazine, Harper's, seemingly to impeach the value of his UFO testimony further. I don't know about his demonstrated ability to forge documents on government stationary (I wouldn't put it past him), but I assume you are talking about the "Easy Papers," which speak of Crisman's alleged efforts to undermine the Tacoma School Board on behalf of the CIA. First, these aren't, to my knowledge, on government stationary, second, though probably written by him, they have not been successfully linked to him. I would note that the Easy Papers seem to have been produced shortly after he was called before the Grand Jury in Re: Garrison's investigation and after Garrison's office had called him an "industrial espionage agent," or something to that effect. It would appear to me that the purpose of this document is to make suggestions that he is an intelligence agent appear absurd. Crisman actually talks about these (probably self-perpetuated) allegations in his autobiography, Murder of a City, Tacoma, noting how silly they are. It seems to me that there is quite a bit of method in Crisman's madness. Crisman's whereabouts on November 22 are really only of importance if one believes Crisman was one of the tramps (which I don't). Crisman had always maintained that he was in school on November 22. Beckham's story does not place him elsewhere, nor does Crisman need to be elsewhere.

Bill, my understanding is that this year Debra hopes to make copies of the conference presentations available on the WEB as video file downloads. As to the list of people at the autopsy, William Law did explore that at some length in his book interviewing the FBI folks and others there....they did make a list and it is in evidence, however they made it fairly early in the process and only did it once so people that came and went may have been missed....and it apparently was done before Lemay arrived, he came in by himself later in the autopsy and some folks had already left by the time he arrived. -- Larry Thanks for that tid bit Ron, and as Larry notes, it does jive with the Andrews Log, as far as LeMay's itiniery that day. I still don't understand why we don't have photos of the autopsy room and a list of people who were there. I've been to Bathesda, and it is a very high security navy hospital, that you have to sign in and to come and go, so there must be a record somewhere. And Larry, arel there or will there be abastracts, videos, tapes or transcripts of the LANCER presentations available? Many Thanks, Bill Kelly

I'd hoped to see this thread go off into some of the hugely important implications of Joan's work such as the Silva interview, the Clinton implications, Oswald's FBI and customs associations, etc. However since it has veered off into Beckham and Chrisman I would strongly encourage anyone following that path to do some real homework (a friend of mine out in Washington State and I spent about three years on those two so I claim a bit of experience). It is clear that Beckham had some association with Bannister's crew and with Oswald (I pointed out Beckham in the lefleting photo to Joan some time ago...a broader version of the photo shows three young Latin girls, one of whom I belive to be his wife....she was young enough that he had a rape conviction related to that marriage). There are many areas of Chrisman's background which are fascinating....the underground robots in telepathic contact with him are an example as is his UFO report which almost let to charges by the Air Force. Beyond that his association with Beckham after the assassination has some entertaining aspects.....it's hard for me to see that two men involved in killing a President would later be involved in scams including placing fake donation jars in bars in Tacoma Wa. Not to mention a variety of similar low end scams. Of course Chrisman's effort to show that the CIA was involved in undermining the activities of local school boards is also problematic. I can tell you that our inteview with his principal clearly showed he was in school on November 22, 1963 - even though the Principal had little good to say about him and thought him a bad influence on his students. To repeat, Beckham did know that Oswald was not what the WC presented him to be...from first hand experience. It's too bad he didn't do something simple for Garrison like associate Oswald with Bannister. However for everyone who wants to go further with Becikham should do some in depth research on both Chrisman and Beckham. Including Chrisman's demonstrated abilities at forging documents on government stationary. -- Larry

Bill, in reference to the special log sheet I read the following: 1625 [4:25pm] 24197 Gen Lemay Dept Wairton 1604 ETA DCA 1715, Driver & Aide at DCA ETA charged 1710, Secy Zuckert Will Meet Lemay at ADW. (notified AC f t ) 1650 [4:50] =09=09Call From 26000, need steps FWD Door, FWD Gally Door & Lift Truck AfT Pax Door, Body in Rear. 1700 [5:00pm] =09Gen Lemay Will land DCA NOT ADW. .....as Lemay arriving at National (DCA; now Ronald Regan) at 17:00 that evening; instead of his original destination which was Andrews (ADW). Surely this is a bit different than his staying in Michigan that day and arriving in Washington only for the funeral. Indeed Lemay staying on vacation during on national emergency would have seemed a bit strange on the face of things anyway. Whairton is up in the Michigan/Ontario regions, that's a fit. Looks like that is where he was but that his official story covers up the fact that he made a rush trip down to DC that evening. And yes, John spoke of Paul O'Conner, referring to his own interviews with him and William Law's and providing more detail than I had heard previously. -- Larry

Mark, based on what John Williams did present which included an Andrews tower log for that day and testimony from one autopsy participant....LeMay did indeed arrive (relatively late) for the autopsy and later chose not to acknowledge that fact in his own comments. Why LeMay would go there rather than stay in a command and control position given the posibility of a Soviet attack (contingency plans clearly spelled out that the elimination of American leaders and breaking the chain of command was anticipated as part of any Soviet strike) is unclear. However the same question can be asked of the Joint Chiefs who also seem not to have left a meeting in progress when they heard of the death and moved into active command of their services. Three are a number of other elements (missing AF1 channel traffic, the rewrite of the Emergency Airborne Command Center aircraft log of the day) that suggest we may not see the sort of national security response that did/should have occured - sort of like sweeing away the original conspiracy charges prepared in Dallas. But as John says, this area is definitely a work in progress... Larry

Dawn, I'm certainly expecting Barr on Saturday afternoon for the authors table session from around 3pm to 6pm. I talked with him myself about three weeks or so ago and he committed to being there. I hope he hasn't changed his mind, if so I have not heard anything about it. On Saturday we will be downtown in the Plaza for about 3 hours around noon, doing guided walking tours and holding a memorial ceremony. In regard to Ultimate Sacrifice, it should go on sale in bookstores on the 18th and Andy W. hopes to have copies available for sale at the conferences. Lamar will be speaking at Lancer on Friday afternoon at 5pm and then will be part of the Sunday evening Authors round table and break out sessions....that would be the best time for those interested to really talk with him about his new book. For reference the full title of the book is: Ultimate Sacrifice: John and Robert Kennedy, the Plan for a Coup in Cuba, and the Murder of JFK -- Larry

Well I had thought about trying to talk Barr and Billy Sol into an arm wrestling match at the authors tables but perhaps this is all getting too confrontational. Certainly it promises to be a very lively conference and I'm especially pleased that we have so much participation from historians and political scientists because certainly it is a time for professional balance in dealing with all the new information being brought forth. We have several members of a college historiagraphy class attending and it should be most educational for them! The on stage schedule has been pretty firmly booked and remained solid for some time but of course there's always ample room for dialog during the break outs and outside the confernce room. There are always a number of lively dialogs going on in various seating areas and around the book sales tables. I expect even more of that this year. Some folks just drop by to chat and the last couple of years I've had a chance to at last say hello to Jack White, got to have dinner together last year which was even better. -- Larry

John, my understanding is that the book will be on sale on November 18, the day that Lamar is speaking at the Lancer conference. Lamar is scheduled for a presesentation on Friday afternoon and will be on the authors panel again Sunday evening. It's also my understanding that the book will be on sale at the conference but of course it will also have very broad commercial availability. -- Larry

Thanks Gerry, "Watch your six" is indeed a good piece of advice - which I will relay. Whenever possible I try to keep a 360 clear field of fire for about 5 miles in any direction. The view's better that way... -- Larry Hi Gerry, yep its the same Larry from your email list...couldn't seem to add this in the correct thread so I'll put it here. .....to clarify a bit, what I have in my possession are the transcripts from a tape recorded session with Roy and and your brother. The transcript seems to cover the arrangements for the taping and the agreement for the interview with Roy.... the transcript was provided by Noel Twyman who related to me the circumstances and fee arrangement for the interview etc. If there is any spoofing being done it would have to be directly from Noel who holds the tapes of the interviews and the transcripts. Do I understand that you or Roy's family have made legal representations to Noel Twyman over this material? Is it true that Roy did not encourage Noel to publish material from the interview in a new edition of his book as the transcript relates? -- Larry ------------------------------ Larry: I haven't spoken with Noel in years, in fact many researchers told me he had died. One suggested that he might have joined with a 2nd "Heavens Gate" trek to the great UFO hiding behind comets in the northern skies. As you know, the 1st H.G. "Trekkers" were neighbors of his, who had leased a palatial home in the closed compound "Rancho" community north of San Diego. I warned my brother to discreetly advise Noel that: after the "controlled" interviews, Roy, always the hustler, would attempt to bilk the old man out of a large chunk of buck$ in the near term. He began this very scheme within weeks of the final interviews at my brother's law offices. He was so sure of his abilties at inventing some new Dealey Plaza confabulation, he asked my brother to contact a family member -- who was then a Florida prosecutor, engineer an attempt to quash the warrants, enter a nolo contendere plea -- which would be based upon his swearing to re-imburse the thousands of dollars he wrote bad checks on. Perhaps he indeed "spoofed" Twyman out of considerable cash, I don't know; but his newly found Mings family heard him boast oftentimes of this fait acompli !! Roy was heavily addicted to Heroin, and frequently drank to excess, so most of the family ignored his boasting. Others were shocked and dismayed that he would go along with Twyman's fervent agenda of placing both Felipe Vidal Santiago and he on the scene that day. Moreover, others were stunned that he failed to name one of his sons after Felipe, as I did. It was soon apparent that Felipe had been conned just as bad as Rosemarie Vernell had been. Twyman's strange impetus against Felipe began with Escalante's bullxxxx stories in nassau. [Many thought it was strange that an engineer who retired from the CIA controlled Bechtel Corp. would scribble a JFK conspiracy tome while approaching his senior 70s] Rosemarie Vernell was a CIA asset who infrequently penetrated the RFK/JFK millieu during 1962. While the "2nd Unit" of the movie production company was filming "PT-109" at a locale just south of No Name key; "Dutch" Henry [2nd Unit Director] sent Ms. Vernell to No name asking us to lunch on the set. Once there, "Dutch" asked us to honor our pledge to RFK that we would not hijack the 2 ex-coast guard ASR-81 boats which had been converted to resemble WWII PT Boats. He further stated that, however: once the film was "in the can" it wouldn't be bad publicity if said "PT Boats [both painted with bow numbers "109" actually were "hijacked" and used on a raid into Cuba. RFK didn't think that was very funny. Rosemarie's brother, Louis Vernell, was an aide to Meyer lanskey. and was in and out of trouble [and the press] into the 1980s. Hargraves opted to abandon No name, and thereafter "shack-up" with Rosemarie at the Alqazar hotel on Biscayne Blvd. -- where she was the boss P.R. person. Roy serviced her and was paid to write poetry [some of it good] which was placed with the napkin holders on the dining room tables. I actually spent a few freebies there, but due to the "Crisis" crap -- I had business elsewhere. Hargraves was banished forever from No Name soon, and he was labled "A Poet and City Commando" by Whatley and others. When he made one attempt to return to No name, Whatley invited him to a duel, Dick's "Arkansas Toothpick" [large Bowie Knife - which he threw very expertly] versus Roy's unholstered .45 Colt. [This was long before "Magnificent 7" and Coburn's famous knife bit]. Bobby Willis stood as "second" [as the sun went down", and held a pistol at his side to take out Roy if he won. Little Joe Garman had his Springfield "03" pointed at the back of Bobby's head to prevent said retaliation. Jim Lewis had a carbine pointed from the shadows at little Joe. I had a cocked "Tommy Gun" with a full 30 round magazine; declared the duel as a draw, and placed hargraves on a boat "out-of-Dodge" !! I am in very infrequent contact with Roy's daughter & Son-in-Law, but he is learned in the law; and sure as hell will not permit his kids grandfather to be portrayed as a DP participant. Moreover, he has a degree in computer engineering -- is a skilled "hacker-hunter'; and therefore knows how to arrange the full panoply of DOS, worm, keylogger, trojan, etc. operations. Moreover, he is extremely violent when aroused, as I witnessed when he almost beat a meter reader to death for spraying his dog with pepper spray. I doubt that if I learned of their intentions reference the matter, I would ever be inclined to disclose same. More importantly, I would take more serious precautions in this instance than I would ever in the case of even Bernardo de Torres. "Watch Your 6" is the byword to all concerned !! Saludos, GPH __________________________ Forgot to mention, what seems like ages ago I had a nice exchange with a gentleman named Mings from Saint Louis. That was back in my Compuserve forum days. He was looking for a relative he thought might be using the name Hargraves and I was able to confirm that he was on the right track. Think I still have the messages on my old PC although I forget his name. I was glad to hear that he had eventually located Roy and managed something of a family reunion. Which only shows I've obviously been doing this stuff way too long...that must have been 15 years ago if not more. -- Larry

Hi Gerry, yep its the same Larry from your email list...couldn't seem to add this in the correct thread so I'll put it here. .....to clarify a bit, what I have in my possession are the transcripts from a tape recorded session with Roy and and your brother. The transcript seems to cover the arrangements for the taping and the agreement for the interview with Roy.... the transcript was provided by Noel Twyman who related to me the circumstances and fee arrangement for the interview etc. If there is any spoofing being done it would have to be directly from Noel who holds the tapes of the interviews and the transcripts. Do I understand that you or Roy's family have made legal representations to Noel Twyman over this material? Is it true that Roy did not encourage Noel to publish material from the interview in a new edition of his book as the transcript relates? -- Larry

John, I can verify from discussions with Fonzi that "Carlos" was a code name assigned to de Torres because the HSCA had to agree to interview him under cofidentiality. Actually Joan Mellen describes some of the interesting restraints that they were placed under even for that interview. As I recall "Carlos" may have been Bernardo's brothers name (haven't looked that up this morning but it rings a bell). So indeed one can read Gaeton's book and equate Carlos with Bernardo. As to Tim's question, Joan does not recant the entire story Murgado story as initially described but clearly as an author she has to responsibility to integrate qualifying remarks at her sources request and has done so. On page 381 she comments that "It may seem that Mr. Murgado is distancing himself from Oswald, whom he acknowledges, however that he had him under surveillance." As I read it she has not changed anything in regard to de Torres or his call back to Sylvia...and as usual I would encourage everyone to read Joan's book and evaluate this all for themselves. Joan has some fascinating pieces of information including an interview with Dr. Silva at East La Hospital (Bill Kelly will enjoy this) who talks about Oswald behaving wildly during his visit there and "ranting about killing Fidel Castro". This is extremely important information and the Silva interview is a very important piece of work. -- Larry What is so interesting is that a Forum provides dates and a chronology of the way information is released. The postings on this Forum will show that Robert Charles-Dunne, Pat Speer and myself were highly suspicious of Murgado’s story from the beginning. We were not alone. I also received emails from several other researchers who shared these views. My own view was this was part of a campaign to discredit Joan Mellen’s book. That it would be revealed later that Murgado was not telling the truth. I emailed Joan expressing these views. I also communicated them to two other authors who were working on books about the JFK assassination who intended to use Murgado as a source. According to Tim, Joan has two different versions of the Silvia Odio incident. One in the article and one in the book. The account in the article is consistent with Odio’s own account. The one in the book contradicts Odio’s account. In other words, the article exposes Bernardo De Torres as someone who helped set up Oswald. That is also my belief and this is reflected in what I had to say about him on my webpage. However, the revised story that appears on this Forum, provides an alibi for De Torres. According to the new story, De Torres was only playing a social visit and like Murgado did not know Oswald. The main beneficiary of this new story is Bernardo De Torres. I suspect that he is the true motivator behind this development. Bernardo De Torres is an interesting character. His name has rarely appeared in any book as being involved in the assassination. Donald Freed (Death in Washington, page 195) and Taylor Branch & Eugene Propper (Labyrinth, page 185) suggest he might have been involved in the killing of Orlando Letelier. Peter Dale Scott (Deep Politics, page 105) provides evidence that he had links to the CIA and the drug trade. William Turner (Rearview Mirror, page 143) points out he turned up as a disinformation agent in the Jim Garrison inquiry and that an informant told the HSCA that he was in Dallas on the day JFK was assassinated and had pictures of “Dealey Plaza in a safe-deposit box”. These points are also repeated in James DiEugenio article, Rose Cheramie” that appeared in The Assassinations (page 236). However, Bernardo De Torres was not looked at in any depth until the publication of Larry Hancock’s Someone Would Have Talked (pages 221-222). It was Larry who revealed that De Torres used the name of Carlos. If that is the case, is Bernardo De Torres the “Carlos” who appears in Gaeton Fonzi’s The Last Investigation (232-241)? Rolando Otero told Fonzi that Carlos was posing as a photographer in Dealey Plaza on 22nd November, 1963. Otero also claimed that Carlos was one of a five men team from Miami who assassinated JFK. Fonzi claims that Carlos was linked to Frank Sturgis and Gerry Hemming via the Anti-Communist Brigade. He also had links to Ken Burnstine, a South Florida real estate developer and Mitch WerBell, the arms dealer. Fonzi also points out that Carlos turned up in New Orleans to volunteer their services in Jim Garrison’s investigation. Fonzi adds that the HSCA discovered that the CIA planted a number of agents on Garrison’s staff. Another informant, Ten-One, claimed that Carlos and an associate fitted the description of “Angel” and “Leopoldo”. However, G. Robert Blakey stopped Fonzi from showing the picture of Carlos and his friend to Silvia Odio. Carlos received a subpoena to testify before the HSCA. What Carlos did not know was that his telephone calls were being monitored. When these were checked it was discovered that one of his first calls after receiving the subpoena was to McLean, Virginia.

Hi Bill, good to hear from you....hopefully we will be able to get you to come to next years conference (hey, I'm always recruiting...grin). Actually I've sort of gotten away from a master timeline and have started going to compartmentalized timelines. Perhaps the most interesting to me is one I've done for the 90 days prior to the assassination. I suppose I could collect them all in an appendix though, hadn't thought of that. Something we are working on is seeing if we can put that into a diagram type format for easier reading. I'm also trying to include social diagram type charts for some different areas because it's so hard for new readers to deal with all the names and the organizations. I'm sure glad I had your book as a starting point or I'd still be totally lost. I'll email you a copy of the background material for my presentation, the presentation itself is Powerpoint and its so abbreviated I'm going to be lucky to be able to follow it myself. -- Larry

James, a couple of references to the letter from Armador Odio... WC 20, p. 690 also, Exhibit 2 if you have my book CD, which is the HSCA memo on the interview of Armador Odio. There is also the interview with Sylvia's Doctor who confirmed her mentioned the visit prior to the assassination, as I recall she mentioned it to him because it had her worried about who the men were and what their motives were... -- Larry

Tim, I'm not sure what commercial publication date you are working against but Joan's book is widely available now and I know several people who have purchased copies and read it. Joan will be in various places next week talking about the book and it will be available for sale at the various conferences. I would not think there would be any problem with commenting on it at this point. -- Larry

It seems like this discussion might really be livened up by a read of the various CIA "Garrison Team" meeting minutes...all of which are released and available as part of the Russ Holmes work files from Rex Bradford's History Matters web site. Perhaps the first item of discussion would be that the very first meeting was opened by with a message delivered to the group by Ray Roca, speaking as Angleton's top CI deputy. Roca advised the group that "Garrison would indeed obtain a conviction of Shaw for conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy." .......given Angleton's ties to FBI security people it would be pretty interesting to know what Angleton and Roca were using as the basis for opinion. Angleton himself worked with the FBI to develop background information on targeted Garrison witnesses. Other than exposure of operational personnel and CIA Cuba activities out of New Orleans it appears that perhaps the biggest CIA fear was that Garrison might serface information which would expose CIA Castro assassination projects. -- Lrry

Without getting involved in a debate on authors, I'll step back a ways for a few observations: 1) Tim should find examples of "evidence" bacause it was very much in the interest of the conspirators to plant such evidence....one example would be the box of material turned into the DPD a couple of weeks after the murder which tied Oswald to Ruby and both to mysterious foreign agents operationg out of Mexico. However he won't find much of this prepared material because it was either lost in the shuffle with the plan was blown or was suppressed by the investigation. Given how Mann and all the agencies in MC were shut down by Johnson and even RFK just for wanting to pursue the Cuban angle you can bet any samples of hard evidence (planted not real IMHO) are long gone. 2) Tim will find a great deal of gossip, rumor, innuendo and "leaks" from CIA sources which point towards Castro, that's been going on forever....Trento and Russo and Hosty for that matter have written about it. Hosty belives in a conspiracy with Oswald being motivated by either Cubans or Russians or both. The problem with these sources is that its all gossip and no real primary evidence. Jim belives it largely based on what his former FBI then CIA friends in MC told him...all that is in his book. Included in this category are a number of bogus pos-assassination plants pointing the finger at Castro, ranging from the Pedro Charles letters to the Alvarado story not to mention a host of stories about Oswald meeting Cubans at the Consulate in MC and taking money from them. I also have file copies of fascinating and mysterious reports where military folks claimed to have heard rumors of intercepted Cuban radio transmissions organizing the assassination and other similar stories. Not to mention the fact that if you check the CIA segreatated file collection you find the CIA surfacing such rumors at every opportunity all the way through the HSCA...including proposing that Odio's visitors were Cuban agents. 3) There is no doubt a good deal of people were looking for hard evidence, I just reviewed a memo written a couple of weeks after the assassination where NSA is telling the FBI that they are reviewing months of pre-assassination Cuban communications intercepts for any signs of Cuban involvement. The FBI encourages them saying they are checking all Cuban angles themselves. CIA called in all their Cuban informants including informants who had been visiting or in contact with the MC Cuban consulate....asking if they had heard any rumors or gossip that Oswald had been involved with the staff or was in any way connected to Cuban intel (CIA even called on their Cuban intel sources) ...and turned up nothing. All those communications are also in the segregated files. ....so, Tim, if you look you are going to turn up quite a collection of Cuban leads....which will lead you just where a number of poeple wanted to take you....well at least way back when there were real investigations in progress... -- Larry