Robert Prudhomme
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Posts posted by Robert Prudhomme
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Why would Baker or Truly describe whomever they encountered, as a suspect (to Sawyer)...when they had just let him go on Truly's word?
-Bill
Because maybe Sawyer asked them, "Well, fellers, did ya run into anybody up there?"
(Just an idea.)
--Tommy
Indeed, one of those "fellers" had just seen Oswald in the 2nd floor lunchroom, yet, by the time he returned to the 1st floor, he somehow knew Oswald was missing from the TSBD and was quick to point this out to Chief Lumkin.
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I am looking for photos of the East and West Freight Elevators of the Texas School Book Depository, taken near the time of the assassination.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Hello Richard
I am glad you are asking for photos of these elevators as I am a little puzzled at how they are depicted on the floor plans, as seen in the floor plan of the 2nd floor I have linked to below:
http://mffprodos5.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10896&relPageId=26
Where were the entrances to the elevators? Did the entrances face east and west?
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Lee
Florers arrest is on film if we can Id the cop/sheriff with him (white hat)
I think it's the cooper film.Braden in his alibi described the rifle being taken from
The TSBD as the way they were holding it was not normal but he describes
The rope/string sling not the leather strap like the Nara model .
Counsel tries to help him but he must have seen the backyard Carcano
As this has a rope sling?, then he cannot lie round the fact the HSCA ignored it.
Sean
Both Braden and Florer gave the same alibi but it was reported by lift operater (William Sharper interviewed by Warren De Breuys)as being a stranger in the building(Dal-Tex)
And "in the building at the time" both Braden And Florer were on the third floor but where the reports are vague.
Lummie Lewis was given Florer to take to DPD along with the lady that Craig
Stopped in the TSBD car park she could be the 40 yr old sales rep .
It's obvious more time elapsed than has been reported as Truly also phoned his wife before the Baker/stairs trip.
I am wondering if Oswald was in the small vestibule on the first floor
When asked for a phone by the ID wielding person and that's how his name
And wrong address were on Revills list at the top and he was simply let go then?.
Ian
Hello Ian
Are you saying that Truly telephoned his wife before he and Baker made their trip upstairs? Would you please direct me to the source of this information? Thanks.
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Jack Ruby keeping close watch on the days events in Willis #9, while a Dallas PD Officer keeps a close watch on him. So very interesting.
From the Warren Commission testimony of Miss Victoria Elizabeth Adams, April 7, 1964:
"Mr. BELIN - That is helpful information. Is there any other information you have that could be relevant?
Miss ADAMS - There was a man that was standing on the corner of Houston and Elm asking questions there. He was dressed in a suit and a hat, and when I encountered Avery Davis going down, we asked who he was, because he was questioning people as if he were a police officer, and we noticed him take a colored boy away on a motorcycle, and this man was asking questions very efficaciously, and we said, "I guess he is maybe a reporter," and later on on television, there was a man that looked very similar to him, and he was identified as Ruby.
And on questioning some police officer, they said they had witnesses to the fact that he was in the Dallas Morning News at the time. And I don't know whether that is relevant or what.
Mr. BELIN - That is all right, we want to get that information down. Was this before you got back in the front door of the building that you saw this?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir; while I was standing by the motorcycles."
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Thanks for posting this report, Sean. I have not seen it before.Hi Sean,
Mooney’s time estimates are one of the key issues. I can see, for instance, where he may have spent more than a “few seconds” in the rail yard. At the same time, his testimony emphasizes his speed in getting into the TSBD. That is why my timeline shows a range of 12:33 to 12:36. He could have made it by 12:33, or it may have actually taken a couple more minutes. It is difficult for me to imagine he got in any later than that.
Then there is the issue of Sarah Stanton. We know the WC did several re-creations when they visited Dallas in March of 1964:
The Limo re-enactment; they had Baker re-enact his actions from the cycle to the 2nd floor and timed that; They timed Mrs Reid in her entry back into her 2nd floor office. It does not seem too far-fetched to have also timed some other witnesses like Stanton, while they were in town.
Why Sarah Stanton would use the back steps is another issue. My best guess is the front elevator was unavailable (power off?) and she went to the other elevators to try them. She may have been one of the women that Mooney referenced when he said two women got on the West Elevator with him.
Hopefully, I can locate my reference for the Sarah Stanton timing. As it stands, it looks like the elevator ups and downs require some delicate timing.
Overall, this thread has been a great ride.
Onward.
Hi Richard,
I suspect (and I'm not the first to do so) that the two men Mooney met coming down the rear stairway may have been the same two 'Secret Service' men Harkness met at the rear of the building shortly after that, ca. 12:38-12:40.
To my knowledge, Sarah Stanton never said a word about having gone to the back of the first floor--she just used the front elevator:
Regarding the two Men that passed by Mooney, it is definitely my belief that they end up being the Fake SS Agents at the rear entrance a few minutes later. I am wondering now if they paused at the 2nd floor elevator (after passing Mooney on the stairs) and are the same two men that Vicky Adams runs into in the West Elevator in her attempt to go back upstairs.
Hello Richard
Would it make sense that these two men in suits and hats would be trying to go back up to the upper floors of the TSBD in an elevator after just having descended the stairs? I should think, if they were part of the conspiracy, they would be making their way directly to an exit.
That being said, is it possible to ID these two men Vicki Adams encountered on the elevator at the 2nd floor?
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I have been attempting to make inquiries with the Dallas County Sheriff's Department, with little success. I repeatedly get transferred to someone's line, who is inevitably never there, and get asked to leave a number they can call me back on, which never happens.
As well as the questions in my opening post, I would like to know if "plainclothes deputy sheriff" holds some special status, similar to detective, or if any deputy out of uniform is called a plainclothes deputy sheriff.
I believe finding the identity of these two men Mooney met is very important, easily as important as identifying the two Secret Service "Agents" met at the rear of the TSBD by Sgt. Harkness of the DPD shortly after Mooney met them as deputy sheriffs.
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Hello Richard
It is a bit difficult to conceive of Deputy Mooney arriving at the freight elevators prior to 12:36; in fact, it is difficult conceiving of him arriving at the elevators prior to 12:40.
If we read Deputy Mooney's Supplementary Investigation Report of 23/11/63, we can see that Deputy Mooney was a very busy man up to the point he boarded the freight elevator.
"I was standing in front of the Sheriff's office at 505 Main Street, Dallas, When President Kennedy and the motorcade passed by. Within a few seconds after he had passed me and the motorcade had turned the corner I heard a shot and I immediately started running towards the front of the motorcade and within seconds heard a second and a third shot. I started running across Houston Street and down across the lawn to the triple underpass and up the terrace to the railroad yards. I searched along with many other officers, this area, when Sheriff Bill Decker came up and told me and the Officers Sam Webster and Billy Joe Victory to surround the Texas School Book Depository building. As we approached the two big steel wire gates to the building dockat the back of the building on Elm Street side, we saw saw that the loading dock had locks on it and I then pulled the steel gates closed and requested of a citizen standing there to see that no-one came out or went in until I could get a uniformed officer there, which he did. Officers Webster, Victory, and myself took to the building. Officers Webster and Victory took the stairs and I told them I would take the freight elevator."
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Was the re-enactment so complete they had Baker wear his motorcycle patrol uniform complete with helmet?
I imagine so, Robert, as a motorcycle-riding element was included in the reconstruction.
That makes sense.
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He did make the trip. He would be another candidate.
Sheriff Bill Decker?Marrion Baker described for the WC his actions after coming down from the roof of the TSBD with Roy Truly:
Mr. BAKER - We went to the, I believe it would be the first floor there.[/size]
Mr. BELIN - All right. You got off the elevator then?[/size]
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.[/size]
Mr. BELIN - Did you leave Mr. Truly or did you stay with him?[/size]
Mr. BAKER - I left Mr. Truly there.[/size]
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?[/size]
Mr. BAKER - I immediately went on out. I was with this motorcade and I went right on straight through the front door and got on my motorcycle and tried to find out what happened to the motorcade.[/size]
It's a little surprising, in the light of the above account, to find footage of Baker standing in conversation with Truly and several others on the first floor:
Of course it's possible, contrary to the impression that Baker gives, that he did briefly engage with some people in Truly's company before heading out.
But it's not what one would expect from his account.
Is it at all possible that this footage is not from Alyea's 11/22/63 film but from 3/20/64, the day of the WC time trial when Baker and Truly reconvened at the Depository?
If so, might this man in the Baker/Truly footage--
--be the same man we see here during a visit to Dallas by WC members in May 64?
Did WC member John Sherman Cooper, Republican Senator from Kentucky, make the trip to Dallas? From photos I've seen of Cooper with his glasses on, it appears this may be Cooper.
Video link below.
Was the re-enactment so complete they had Baker wear his motorcycle patrol uniform complete with helmet?
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It might be helpful at this point to note there are several component discussions in this thread.
The first two focus on the figure seen in Weigman and Darnell:
1. Identifying Prayer Man
2. The light “reflection” area by PM’s hands: Is PM holding something?
Several other discussions have evolved from the implications of Oswald as Prayer Man:
3. Oswald seen in the small Storage room in the front Lobby
4. Oswald/Truly/Baker encounter in the entrance or 1st floor lobby
5. Oswald/Truly/Baker encounter in the 2nd floor Lunchroom area
6. Oswald 2nd floor encounter with Mrs. Reid
7. Baker encounter with suspect on 4th floor (from his first day affidavit)
8. Baker stairs/ or elevator/ or combination to the roof
9. Oswald leaving the TSBD (from the title of the thread)
Thank you for the breakdown, Richard. This is a fascinating thread, and I, for one, am looking at old material in a totally new way; thanks to you gentlemen.
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Mr. BAKER - As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead of me, and as I come out I WAS KIND OF SCANNING you know, the rooms, and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this--I happened to see him through this window in this door.
AND WHEN I GOT TO WHERE I COULD SEE HIM he was walking away from me about 20 feet away from me in the lunchroom.
Thank you Robert.
Mr. BELIN - Now, with relation to Exhibit 497 perhaps you can try to trace your route as you came out from the stairway, as to the route you took and the point you were when you first caught a glimpse of some movement through that window or door?
Mr. BAKER - At the upper portion of this stairway leading to the second floor, I was just stepping out on to the second floor when I caught this glimpse of this man through this doorway.
Thank you, Raymond.
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Many thanks for the kind words, Robert, and you are of course quite right--Baker had nothing close to a line of sight from his position on the second-floor landing into the lunchroom.
You are forgetting something, Sean.
Baker testified that he planned to check each floor,
if I am not mistaken.
Your theory is based on the false premise
that Baker testified that he checked each floor
but not the second floor.
By Baker's own testimony we can draw the inference
that he deliberately checked the 2nd floor
by deliberately entering the lunchroom,
as part of his plan to check each floor.
It would only be peculiar if he HAD NOT
checked that lunchroom!
Mr. BAKER - As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead of me, and as I come out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms, and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this--I happened to see him through this window in this door. I don't know how come I saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there.
Mr. DULLES - Where was he coming from, do you know?
Mr. BAKER - No, sir. All I seen of him was a glimpse of him go away from me.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do then?
Mr. BAKER - I ran on over there
Representative BOGGS -You mean where he was?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. There is a door there with a glass, it seemed to me like about a 2 by 2, something like that, and then there is another door which is 6 foot on over there, and there is a hallway over there and a hallway entering into a lunchroom, and when I got to where I could. see him he was walking away from me about 20 feet away from me in the lunchroom.
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To recap where the counter-narrative I'm putting forward has led us so far:
- Oswald out front for the assassination (Prayer Man)
- Briefest of encounters with Baker as the latter was rushing into the first floor
- Oswald remained around the front entrance/lobby area
- Baker and Truly ran to the rear of the first floor and took the west elevator upstairs
All of Baker's and Truly's actions are innocent and intelligible.
We might even say that Baker's are pretty heroic.
All the complications and all the shenanigans come later, as the authorities scramble to put together a half-coherent cover story to bury the simple events they know to have taken place.
- Later that afternoon, Baker is persuaded to give a phoney affidavit report about challenging an 'employee' by the third or fourth floor rear stairway
- Later that evening or night, a new improved version is put together.
- It has become clear that the only halfway viable location for an Oswald encounter off the first floor and anywhere near the rear stairway is the second-floor lunchroom.
On 1 December 63 The Washington Post carried the following report:
Researchers' eyes have over the years been drawn to the last detail in the underlined sections: "sipping from a Coke bottle".
And indeed, this was part of the first version of the lunchroom story that Roy Truly began to give out from the evening or night of the assassination.
However it's the details before that that are of most interest in the present context.
The story being told here is not of Truly and the officer running to the rear of the first floor.
Instead it has Truly and the officer (whose gun, NB, is drawn--a fact already demonstrated in Darnell) go up the front steps and then immediately go up the stairs to the second floor.
The stairs in question are not the rear stairs but the front-of-house stairs (black arrow marks the "small storage room" where Campbell and Reid will in the real world soon see Oswald):
Now for the kick in the head:
As they made their way to a back stairway...
These words are only puzzling if we forget the words just preceding them.
Truly has led Baker up the front stairs so that they can go through the second floor (via either corridors or office area) and make their way to the back stairway which leads all the way up to the top of the building (the front stairs only went up as far as the fourth floor).
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But why would the new lunchroom story need to delete the real-life dash to the rear of the first floor?
For the simple reason that the officer needs to be given a route that will take him right by the second-floor lunchroom.
It is impossible to go from the front stairs to the second-floor rear stairs without passing the lunchroom.
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Roy Truly's very first on-the-record mention of a second-floor lunchroom incident, given late on 11/22, is notable for the distinct impression it gives that he and the officer took the front stairs not the back:
They saw no one there: Truly's giveaway disclaimer as to Oswald's presence at the first floor entrance
he accompanied the officer immediately up the stairs to the second floor of the building: front stairs, for a route that will bring Oswald into Baker's path en route to the rear stairway
Another brilliant catch, Sean, and I did not realize just how brilliant until I went back and studied the floor plan of the 2nd floor of the TSBD; which I have linked below for others to refer to:
http://mffprodos5.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10896&relPageId=26
One glaring thing that stands out immediately is that Baker, whom we assume is hard on Truly's heels and making a hard left after emerging from the staircase onto the 2nd floor landing, is never in a position to be able to see Oswald in the lunchroom, unless Oswald has his face pressed up against the window of the lunchroom door. Baker would have to look through the small windows of two doors which, unfortunately for the WC apologists, are not even close to being lined up to the line of sight of Baker emerging from the staircase and heading for the 2nd floor.
It would make far more sense, assuming the Baker/Oswald 2nd floor lunchroom encounter actually did occur, for Baker/Truly to take the front staircase and pass through the vestibule of the lunchroom on the way to the back staircase. In that scenario, Baker/Truly would go past the single door to the lunch room and a quick glance to the right by Baker, through the door window, would find Oswald with his Coke in the lunchroom.
However, in light of the material revealed in the last few posts by you and Mr. Hocking, I am seriously beginning to doubt that Baker/Truly went up any stairs at all.
Brilliant research, gentlemen, and I have to say I have learned more about the assassination on this thread, and this forum, in the last few months than I have learned in the last ten years. Keep up the good work!
P.S. This has probably been shown a thousand times but, for the benefit of those younger people new to the case, here is what Baker would have seen emerging from the staircase at the 2nd floor landing:
http://mffprodos5.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10896&relPageId=28
As can be seen in this WC photo, the only thing visible through this door is the wall to the right of the lunchroom door. As Baker moves to his left, towards the stairs leading to the 3rd floor, his line of sight through this first door actually moves away from the lunchroom door.
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An excerpt from one of Baker's Warren Commission sessions that may fit into Sean's discussion of Baker/elevator/stairs.
from http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol3/page267.php
There is some interesting interaction between Senator Cooper and Mr. Belin.
[begin Excerpt]
...
Mr. Baker. No; from the street in. As I ran in I was pushing them aside and running through them, and some way, Mr. Truly got from my back to my front.
Now, he said he was right behind me. I never did see him until I got in and asked the question of where the stairs was, so evidently whenever I went in the door why he came on in. There were several people coming in as I, you know, came in, there were several in front of me and also around my sides and my back. And it seemed to me like a double door deal. Senator Cooper. As you went up on the elevator could you see out of the elevator onto floors? Mr. Baker. Yes, sir. The best that I could, that is the reason I wasn't paying too much attention to the elevator I was looking around all those floors. Senator Cooper. Did you see anyone? Mr. Belin. When you say up on the elevator, he didn't get on the elevator until he had got up on the stairs. Senator Cooper. I am aware of that. Mr. Baker. I was still looking. Senator Cooper. You went up on the second floor by stairs? Mr. Baker. Yes, sir. Senator Cooper. Then you got on the elevator. Mr. Belin. No, sir; he didn't get on the elevator until the fifth floor. Senator Cooper. Anyway, as you walked up the stairs could you see into each floor space as you passed from floor to floor? Mr. Baker. Partly. Now, this building has got pillars in it, you know, and then it has got books, cases of books stacked all in it. And the best that I could, you know, I would look through there and see if I could see anybody. Senator Cooper. Did you see anyone? Mr. Baker. No, sir. Senator Cooper. When you looked? Mr. Baker. Not from the second floor on up. ... [end of excerpt]
You have to hate witnesses who stray from the script.
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and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator."[Officer Baker in his 11/22/63 affidavit]
I jumped off my motor and ran inside the building. As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager
Great catch, Robin.
You are right
and Murph is wrong,
just like he was wrong
about the music!
In his WC testimony, Roy Truly was a bit more specific in describing his and Officer Baker's movements as they ran toward the TSBD entrance.
Mr. TRULY:...
I saw a young motorcycle policeman run up to the building, up the steps to the entrance of our building. He ran right by me. And he was pushing people out of the way. He pushed a number of people out of the way before he got to me. I saw him coming through, I believe. As he ran up the stairway--I mean up the steps, I was almost to the steps, I ran up and caught up with him. I believe I caught up with him inside the lobby of the building, or possibly the front steps. I don't remember that close. But I remember it occurred to me that this man wants on top of the building. He doesn't know the plan of the floor. And-that is-that just pepped in my mind, and I ran in with him. As we got in the lobby, almost on the inside of the first floor, this policeman asked me where the stairway is. And I said, "This way".
...
[end quote]
For as much as we can see in the Darnell film, it seems consistent with Truly's description.
Excellent work, Michael; end of argument.
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question:
Since prayer man appears to be back in the shadows, how does the sun reach the ( camera lense, coke bottle bottom ? ) to make a sunlight reflection ?
Hmmm...good question, Robin.
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How does choosing the parade route give Forrest Sorrels the ability to know if Oswald is still in the TSBD?
I think after 50 years and some amazing research,
the broad outlines of the plot keep on becoming clearer, IMO.
From John Newman we know that Angleton & Co. were monitoring Oz,
and from David Lifton and Vince Palamara we know
a number of Secret Service agents were involved.
Sorrels had to be key plotter,
because he is the man
who led JFK into ambush.
I understand what you are saying, Ray, but I am not 100% convinced Forrest Sorrels planned the parade route with an ambush in mind.
Years ago, I subscribed to the theory the parade route was changed, from going straight down Main St. onto Stemmons Freeway to the 120° turn onto Elm St. then to Stemmons, for the express purpose of leading JFK past the TSBD. It was not until I visited Dealey Plaza, in the 1990's, that I saw for myself the concrete divider that prevents cars from turning off Main St. onto the Stemmons Freeway. This divider was there in 1963, as well, and prevents Main St. traffic from cutting in front of through traffic on Elm St. From what I can gather, two solutions to this problem had been considered by the Secret Service. The first would have been to place temporary ramps on the divider to allow JFK's limo to go over the divider. This was abandoned, considering how low to the ground the limo was. The second was to continue down Main St. to the next on ramp after Elm St. This was abandoned, as well, as the limo would have to travel through an unsightly and rough part of Dallas.
With this in mind, the parade route does not seem so ridiculous after all, although a plotter looking at the parade route would be quick to capitalize on the advantages of an ambush in Dealey Plaza.
Are there other clues pointing to Forrest Sorrels as an accomplice?
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Vicki Adams worked on the fourth floor of the TSBD and watched the assassination from a south-facing window on that floor in the company of several colleagues.
She claimed to have run down the back stairs to the first floor with her colleague Sandra Styles, and insisted that she and Sandra had left the fourth floor window within just seconds of the last shot being fired and had gone downstairs immediately.
For many years, conspiracy theorists have pointed to the eyebrow-raising fact that she didn't see or hear Oswald coming down the stairs.
In more recent years however, and in particular since the appearance of Barry Ernest's provocative book The Girl on the Stairs, WC defenders have pointed to a no less eyebrow-raising fact: she didn't see or hear Mr. Truly and a police officer coming up the stairs.
How, these WC defenders have asked, and not without good reason it has to be said, could the two pairs of people have possibly missed each other entirely if Adams and Styles had really hit those rear stairs as quickly as Adams claimed? Does not this prove that Adams was mistaken and must have gone downstairs at some point after Baker and Truly had gone past the fourth floor?
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This was my own view at one time, for I had had a lengthy telephone conversation with Sandra Styles in 2008.
Sandra told me that her recollection was that she and Vicki had gone downstairs significantly later than Vicki had claimed.
That, I thought, was that. Oliver Stone would have to cut those memorable frames from his next edit of JFK.
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Then Barry's book came out. In it he gave details of a telephone conversation he had had with Sandra several years earlier (and long before my contact with her). Sandra, he reported, said that she and Vicki had left the front window just as the Presidential limousine was about to enter the triple underpass.
I immediately went on to a couple of JFK assassination research forums and, in so many words, accused Barry of being a xxxx. For Sandra had given me a very different timeline.
**
But something was bothering me.
It was a certain document which Barry had discovered and reproduced in his book--a registered letter, dated 2 June 1964, sent by Martha Joe Stroud, assistant U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of Texas, to J. Lee Rankin, WC general counsel:
Miss Garner, Miss Adams' supervisor, stated this morning that after Miss Adams went downstairs she (Miss Garner) saw Mr. Truly and the policeman come up: did not these words offer sensational vindication of Vicki Adams's unwavering claim to have gone downstairs at once?
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I decided to re-contact Sandra Styles, this time by email, and put to her the information contained in the Stroud document.
She seemed genuinely taken aback, if not nonplussed, by Garner's reported claim.
She then restated several times something that she had said in our original conversation and in the follow-up emails, something that I had heard but not really processed, putting it down to the lady's self-effacing modest personality: she could not rule out the possibility that Vicki's recollection was the more accurate one. Memory, she said, plays funny tricks and all she could tell me at this point was that "logic tells me" that it was later than Vicki said.
She also, for the first time, mentioned that the authorities who interviewed her had told her that the police had not started their search of the TSBD building until some 15-20 minutes (!) after the assassination. This had always bothered her, and seemed to have played a role in fixing her 'memory' of having gone downstairs minutes rather than seconds after the shooting.
**
Vicki Adams's claim was suddenly back in contention, at least for me.
But the Stroud document, even as it supported her timeline, only undermined her story all over again:
for, if Baker and Truly came up on to the fourth floor landing after Adams and Styles left it for the stairs down, how in heaven's name did they all manage to miss one another?
There was, it is true, a tiny window (pun half-intended) in which this could conceivably have happened: Baker and Truly over at the second-floor lunchroom entrance while Adams and Styles are running across the second-floor landing. But it was a tiny and, truth be told, rather ludicrous one--the sound of two women in high heels hurrying down the noisy wooden stairs from three to two, across the landing and then down the stairs from two to one would not have gone unnoticed.
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In June 2011 Barry Ernest managed to track down Dorothy Garner, the Scott, Foresman & Co. office supervisor mentioned in the Stroud document.
What she told him bears transcribing at length:
Did Miss Adams and Miss Styles leave the window right away, I asked her.
"The girls did," she responded. "I remember them being there and the next thing I knew, they were gone."
They had left "very quickly…within a matter of moments," she added.
What did Mrs. Garner do after that?
"There was this warehouse or storage area behind our office, out by the freight elevators and the rear stairway, and I went out there."
Her move to that area clearly put her into a position where she could have observed activity on the back stairs as well as on the
elevators. But how fast had she arrived there?
Mrs. Garner said she immediately went to this area, following "shortly after…right behind" Miss Adams and Miss Styles. She
couldn't remember exactly why she went out there, other than to say, "probably to get something." Mrs. Garner said she did not actually see "the girls" enter the stairway, though, arriving on the fourth- floor landing seconds after. When I asked how she knew they had gone down, Mrs. Garner said, "I remember hearing them, after they started down. I remember the stairs were very noisy."
Were the freight elevators in operation during this time?
"I don't recall that," she answered. "They were very noisy too!"
Mrs. Garner said she remained at that spot and was alone for a moment before "several came out back from the office to look out those windows there."
Anyone doubting that Barry is giving us a fair rendition of what Ms. Garner told him should consider very carefully what he says happened when he raised the crux question:
Did she remember seeing Roy Truly and a police officer come up the stairs together?
"I could have," she answered, "but there was so much confusion. It was, after all, a few years ago!"
**
It is, I submit, a testament to Barry's honesty as a researcher that he has given us faithfully what must have been for him a hugely anti-climactic answer from Dorothy Garner. After all, the Truly-Baker-coming-up-the-stairs issue was the chief reason for Barry's call to her.
I also submit that Garner's answer, when understood in proper context, is in fact far from anti-climactic.
For had she told Barry that yes, she clearly remembered seeing Truly and Baker coming up the stairs together, then we would be back to square one. How did they not see Baker and Truly while descending, etc.
Garner's 'failure' to confirm what the Stroud document says may be no failure at all.
It may be inviting us to take another look at that document:
Dorothy Garner did indeed see Mr. Truly and the police officer come up.
But can someone please show me where it says she saw them come up the stairs?
Brilliant piece of deduction, Sean, and I am especially impressed by the fact you were able to re-examine Barry Ernest's work and admit he may have been right all along. This brand of humility is sadly lacking in many researchers and prevents them, often, from seeing the truth.
On that note, is it at all possible that Sandra and Vicki were so quick going down the stairs that they were already on the 1st floor while Baker and Truly were still attempting to board the elevator (or stopping Oswald on the 1st floor)?
And, just to play the Devil's advocate (and I'm sure I'll get blasted for this one), could Vicki and Sandra have been starting down the staircase at the time Oswald was still hiding the rifle on the 6th floor? Could they have been early enough to miss Oswald AND the Baker/Truly duo?
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Just a thought re the Wiegman.........Assume that Prayer Man is holding a bottle of Coke in his right hand. As Prayer Man proceeds to take a sip from the bottle, he brings it up to his mouth and tilts the bottle back (so that the bottle is almost horizontal as he is taking his sip). The round, light area in front of Prayer Man's lower facial region could be a reflection of light off of the round base of a Coke bottle.
Exactly, Michael, glint off a coke bottle is a very strong possibility.
The fact that Wiegman shows one hand up to the face while the other is still kept raised to chest level is IMO extremely significant, for it suggests
a ) he cannot have been using a camera
b ) he was holding something in both hands.
What I'm seeing is either this--
--or its reverse (i.e. drinking the coke using one hand and holding the sandwich in the other).
Again we must remind ourselves of Fritz's words during his WC testimony:
Mr. FRITZ. He said he was having his lunch. He had a cheese sandwich and a Coca-Cola.[/size]
I believe that's exactly what Lee Oswald did tell Fritz he was doing--only he didn't say he was doing it in the second-floor lunchroom, he said he was doing it out front.
If so, then Fritz has just seconds before his comment above committed a major boo-boo:
Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement...[/size]
He was having his lunch ... he was eating lunch: same timeframe, same claim.
I believe Oswald named one of the "employees" he had been eating lunch with, and it wasn't 'Junior' [Jarman] or the short 'negro' [Norman] (whose names did come up in a different context). It was Bill Shelley.
Excellent observation. I think you have pretty well eliminated the possibility of Prayer Man holding a camera.
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Don't you find this statement a bit strange, in light of Truly signing an affidavit on 23/11/63 where he not only sees Oswald on the 2nd floor as baker sticks a
that it was him asking Shelley if Shelley had seen Oswald. and not Shelley asking Truly if he had seen Oswald? Should Truly not have said, "Oh, we saw him on the 2nd floor. He may still be up there, for all we know."
How would Forrest Sorrels know, at this point, that Oswald had left the TSBD?
I don't see anything strange about the Shelley -Truly confusion.
I've seen it happen a million times.
Sorrels is the guy who chose the ridiculous parade route, so he had to know
what was going down that day
I have to disagree with you on this one. Truly supposedly saw Oswald on the 2nd floor only minutes before Shelley asked Truly if he saw Oswald, and Truly can't recall seeing Oswald and seeing Baker pointing a gun at him? Outside of the two "officers" Baker and Truly encountered on the 4th floor, who else did they see?
How does choosing the parade route give Forrest Sorrels the ability to know if Oswald is still in the TSBD?
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By that time there was several people in the building. Some fifteen minutes later I was checking our employees, and I did not find Lee. I asked Mr. Shelley if he had seen Lee. He said no. I then contacted Chief Lumkin and told him Lee was missing."
Forrest Sorrels was involved. It may be in Sorrels testimony, but I recall from somewhere that Sorrels
asked Truly to see if all his men were accounted for.
I believe it was Sorrels, knowing that Lee had already done an Elvis
and left the building, who initiated the inquiry.
Once again, from Bill Shelley's affidavit of 22/11/63:
"After the President's accident (?), I started checking around and I'd missed Lee. I ask Mr. Truly about him and he said he had not seen him."
Don't you find this statement a bit strange, in light of Truly signing an affidavit on 23/11/63 where he not only sees Oswald on the 2nd floor as baker sticks a gun in his stomach, but he also states that it was him asking Shelley if Shelley had seen Oswald. and not Shelley asking Truly if he had seen Oswald? Should Truly not have said, "Oh, we saw him on the 2nd floor. He may still be up there, for all we know."
How would Forrest Sorrels know, at this point, that Oswald had left the TSBD?
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Roy Truly's affidavit of 23/11/63 has some interesting information, as well.
"We searched the roof and a small room, also checked the landings. We could look out over the tracks and street below. We did not find anything. We started down on the elevator. The officer took a hurried look on a couple of floors on the way down. We then met some other officers on the 4th floor searching the building. I overheard someone say that the shot came from the window of our building. By that time there was several people in the building. Some fifteen minutes later I was checking our employees, and I did not find Lee. I asked Mr. Shelley if he had seen Lee. He said no. I then contacted Chief Lumkin and told him Lee was missing."
Just the day before, it was Shelley who claimed he had asked Truly if he had seen Lee, to which Truly had replied no. And there are the two officers on the 4th floor again. Strange.
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Interesting bit of information I just discovered in an affidavit given by Bill Shelley on 22/11/63.
"After the President's accident (?), I started checking around and I'd missed Lee. I ask Mr. Truly about him and he said he had not seen him."
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Although Chinese food may not be the first thing that comes to mind when you think of Ireland, the country is home to some really great Chinese restaurants. Maybe best known as the birthplace of John McCormack, the great Irish tenor, Athlone is also known as the hub of Chinese dining in the midlands of Westmeath. So many good Chinese eateries are scattered throughout the city that it'd be hard not to have a fantastic meal while in Athlone.
Read more: http://www.ehow.com/list_6185131_chinese-restaurants-athlone_-ireland.html#ixzz2dPukhbBR
My brother Patrick treated me to a fabulous dinner here, at John McCormack's birthplace. I just got back from Shanghai
where the food and the people are great,
so I think what we need now
is another song by John.
I was born in county Tipperary,
a place he knew right well:
Thanks for posting this song. My Mom's father was in the First World War and, when I was little, he and I would sing this song when we were out driving somewhere. It seemed like such a happy song and it wasn't until I had grown up and he had passed away that I learned what a hell he had lived through in those four years in the trenches in France. Thinking of this now, I was always impressed that he was able to come back to Canada, hold it together and raise a family.
Photos of elevators?
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted · Edited by Robert Prudhomme
Thank you, Bjorne and Richard. I have a better understanding of the elevators now. Clearly, anyone boarding the east elevator could do so without the knowledge of a person using the stairway and only observing the elevators from the small space between up and down stairway entrances.