Robert Prudhomme

You really do have trouble thinking outside of the box, don't you, Dave[?]

Try this one on for size; how do you know the assassin did not pick the empty cartridges up, wipe his fingerprints off them, and put them down in a neat little pile?

Translation --- Unlike many conspiracy theorists, DVP has a hard time pretending the bullet shells were in a condition that is not supported by the witness testimony.

You really do have trouble following simple testimony, don't you Bob?

Try this on for size (again):

Mr. BALL - You think that the cartridges are in the same position as when you saw them in this picture 510?

Mr. MOONEY - As far as my knowledge, they are; pretty close to right.

Let me guess -- Luke Mooney is a xxxx. Right, Bobby? You seem to be implying that he is. Any particular reason?

Yes, the same Mooney who ran into two fellows coming down the stairs and assumed they were plainclothes deputy sheriffs; and never exchanged a single word with them.

How many plainclothes deputy sheriffs do you think there were in the county of Dallas in November, 1963, Dave?

There was a letter from Dallas US Attorney Marcia Joe Stroud addressed to WC chief counsel J. Lee Rankin, dated June 2, 1964. The letter contained all of the corrections Victoria Adams requested be made to her testimony; none of which were ever made.

It did, however, contain the following:

“Miss Garner, Miss Adams’ supervisor, stated this morning that after Miss Adams went downstairs she (Miss Garner) saw Mr. Truly and the policeman come up.”

Small wonder Sandra Styles and Miss Garner were never called to testify before the WC.

Fritz...picked the shells up and threw them down again because he didn't want them photographed arranged all together in a line by whichever idiot had placed them that way.

Maybe it's time to stop believing Roger Craig's craziness. The shells were not lined up all in a neat little row. The idea that they were is just dumb....and would certainly be something no "shell planter" would even begin to want to do, since it would obviously indicate something fishy with the shells.

Luke Mooney, who found the shells BEFORE Fritz ever got to the sixth floor, said:

LUKE MOONEY - The minute I squeezed between these two stacks of boxes, I had to turn myself sideways to get in there, that is when I saw the expended shells and the boxes that were stacked up looked to be a rest for the weapon. .... I didn't lay my hands on anything, because I wanted to save every evidence we could for fingerprints. So I leaned out the window, the same window from which the shots were fired, looked down, and I saw Sheriff Bill Decker and Captain Will Fritz standing right on the ground.

[...]

JOSEPH BALL - Now, I show you 510.

Mr. BALL - Is that the empty shells you found?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Are they shown there?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Now, will you take this and encircle the shells?

Mr. MOONEY - All right.

Mr. BALL - Put a fairly good sized circle around each shell. That is the way they were when you saw them, is that right?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir.

[...]

Mr. BALL - Is this the position of the cartridges as shown on 510, as you saw them?

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir. That is just about the way they were laying, to the best of my knowledge. I do know there was--one was further away, and these other two were relatively close together--on this particular area. But these cartridges--this one and this one looks like they are further apart than they actually was.

Mr. BALL - Which ones?

Mr. MOONEY - This one and this one.

Mr. BALL - Now, two cartridges were close together, is that right?

Mr. MOONEY - The one cartridge here, by the wall facing, is right. And this one and this one, they were further away from this one.

Mr. BALL - Well--

Mr. MOONEY - But as to being positive of the exact distance...

Mr. BALL - You think that the cartridges are in the same position as when you saw them in this picture 510?

Mr. MOONEY - As far as my knowledge, they are; pretty close to right.

You really do have trouble thinking outside of the box, don't you, Dave.

Try this one on for size; how do you know the assassin did not pick the empty cartridges up, wipe his fingerprints off them, and put them down in a neat little pile?

No problem. And watch that blood pressure, eh?

Why, I gave him what I thought was a standard LN response, designed to make the other poster feel foolish and inadequate.

Great. Now the CTers are going to pretend that the "young black couple" on the bench positively saw a gunman behind the fence on the Knoll, even though this young couple has never been identified and never said a word about anything. Typical CTer speculation.

Relax, Dave, I took care of this one for you already.

Remember what the doctor said about trying to keep yourself from getting all worked up??

But, Shelley and Lovelady left from the front steps of the TSBD, stopped at the concrete island to listen to Gloria Calvery (in one of his versions) and proceeded down the deadend Elm St. to the railroad yard (also in one version of his story).

This was not a quick duck out the back door for a look see and right back inside.

"Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?

Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end."

Notice Mr. Shelley testified that he and Lovelady WALKED on down to the first railroad track. How long do you think it took Shelley to get to the elevators?

So they are out front - they run down Elm, a small side street that ends at the end of the building where the rail road yard begins. They stand at the end of Elm, which is also the end of the TSBD building's west side and they walk along the loading docks there and enter the building from the west side entrance. No long hike, just a waltz around the building on the outside.

Once inside they stand by the elevators as the secretaries come down the steps and see them standing there. Then Baker and Truly show up and tell Shelley to guard the elevators - which are on the fifth floor.

Baker and Truly then proceed up the steps.

My original point was that Shelley evidently suffered a serious memory lapse in his affidavit and some other testimony, because in the Malcolm Couch film he and Lovelady are not "at" or "on," or running "to" the "corner of the park" or "the island," but are walking (and then running) down the Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot at the same time that Baker is running into the TSBD.

--Tommy

Exactly, Thomas. Unless Truly waited around the elevators on the 1st floor for Shelley to return, how was he able to give him orders to guard the elevators? Did he shout the orders down the elevator shaft from the 5th floor?

It is entirely possible that Truly gave orders to Shelley AFTER he and Baker returned to the 1st floor from the roof.

Speaking of memory lapses, Shelley's first day affidavit mentions nothing of the walk to the parking lot, has Gloria Calvery running up to the steps to share the news, has Shelley going immediately inside (presumably by the front entrance) and has Shelley phoning his wife (I thought the phones were out?) and telling her about the assassination, all BEFORE heading to the elevators.

As I said, Mr. Truly must have been a VERY patient man.

P.S. Just for emphasis:

"Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.

Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes."

But, Shelley and Lovelady left from the front steps of the TSBD, stopped at the concrete island to listen to Gloria Calvery (in one of his versions) and proceeded down the deadend Elm St. to the railroad yard (also in one version of his story).

This was not a quick duck out the back door for a look see and right back inside.

"Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?

Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end."

Notice Mr. Shelley testified that he and Lovelady WALKED on down to the first railroad track. How long do you think it took Shelley to get to the elevators?

So they are out front - they run down Elm, a small side street that ends at the end of the building where the rail road yard begins. They stand at the end of Elm, which is also the end of the TSBD building's west side and they walk along the loading docks there and enter the building from the west side entrance. No long hike, just a waltz around the building on the outside.

Once inside they stand by the elevators as the secretaries come down the steps and see them standing there. Then Baker and Truly show up and tell Shelley to guard the elevators - which are on the fifth floor.

Baker and Truly then proceed up the steps.

Bill, read the testimony again. Did Shelley say he ran down Elm St.? No, he testified they WALKED down Elm St. Big difference. He also testified that they STOOD there for a while and watched them search cars in the parking lot.

Not only is the distance Shelley covered from the front steps of the TSBD to the railroad track and back to the loading dock greater than the distance Victoria Adams covered from the 4th to the 1st floor by at least a factor of four (if not five or six - see the photo Thomas provided), he seems to be taking his sweet time; stopping to talk to Gloria Calvery and watching cars being searched. Victoria Adams, on the other hand, left the 4th floor within seconds of the last shot and went down to the 1st floor as rapidly as she could.

She obviously was at the 1st floor before Baker and Truly got to the elevators and, from Shelley's testimony, it is hard to understand how Truly could have given Shelley orders to guard the elevator. Truly would have been on his way upstairs before Shelley made it back to the building.

In the above drawing, there are two benches marked by squares, one at the top and one at the bottom, with the bottom one the one which I believe that the black couple was sitting.

But that position appears to be along the walk that leads to the steps and the street where the three men were standing, including Hudson, and that bench would be facing east, not south as the bench the cops are inspecting appears to be facing.

Which way was the bench facing, east or south?

And David, I don't think seeing the president's brains being blown out was a frightening as seeing a policeman with a rifle behind the fence, and the terror of telling that story to the Dallas Police, who refused to take that statement.

BK

DVP has been under a lot of stress lately. I have volunteered to help him out and relieve his load by answering the odd post for him. Like this one.

--------------------------------------------------------

SERIOUSLY, Bill, you can't possibly tell me that there are STILL people who believe there was a man with a rifle behind the fence. The evidence just doesn't support it!

That woman was

a) lying

confused

c) "mis-remembering" (my personal favourite)

d) seeking her fifteen minutes of fame

e) misquoted by some malcontent unpatriotic CT

That's a good imitation of DVP Robert, you get brownie points for being funny.

If the bench is situated on the east side of the walkway, near where Groden sets up, then it would be facing east, away from the walkway and they indeed would have a good view of all the proceedings. Front row seat.

But they would have had to turn around in order to see anyone behind the picket fence.

Rifle shots at under 50 feet have a tendency to make people turn their heads.

But, Shelley and Lovelady left from the front steps of the TSBD, stopped at the concrete island to listen to Gloria Calvery (in one of his versions) and proceeded down the deadend Elm St. to the railroad yard (also in one version of his story).

This was not a quick duck out the back door for a look see and right back inside.

"Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?

Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end."

Notice Mr. Shelley testified that he and Lovelady WALKED on down to the first railroad track. How long do you think it took Shelley to get to the elevators?

[...]

For Bill and Robert:

--Tommy

Merci beaucoup.

In the above drawing, there are two benches marked by squares, one at the top and one at the bottom, with the bottom one the one which I believe that the black couple was sitting.

But that position appears to be along the walk that leads to the steps and the street where the three men were standing, including Hudson, and that bench would be facing east, not south as the bench the cops are inspecting appears to be facing.

Which way was the bench facing, east or south?

And David, I don't think seeing the president's brains being blown out was a frightening as seeing a policeman with a rifle behind the fence, and the terror of telling that story to the Dallas Police, who refused to take that statement.

BK

DVP has been under a lot of stress lately. I have volunteered to help him out and relieve his load by answering the odd post for him. Like this one.

--------------------------------------------------------

SERIOUSLY, Bill, you can't possibly tell me that there are STILL people who believe there was a man with a rifle behind the fence. The evidence just doesn't support it!

That woman was

a) lying

confused

c) "mis-remembering" (my personal favourite)

d) seeking her fifteen minutes of fame

e) misquoted by some malcontent unpatriotic CT

Precisely. The conundrum of conundrums.

P.S. Six hundred yards would actually be six football fields, not two.

We have contacted a number of people who have met a women on the knoll on anniversaries who claims to have been the one who dropped the Strawberry Nehi - bottle that Zapruder's secretary saw and heard break, and she said her and her brother knew Emmett Hudson, the groundskeeper of the park area who is in the film-photo you posted above.

Bill,

That's *very* interesting. Do you know if the lady is saying that she was in the company of her brother in Dealey Plaza that day? And does she mention that she had her baby with her?

Thanks,

Sean

Hi Sean, Yes, she said she was with her brother at the time, and they were eating lunch - take out burgers and Strawberry Nihi - (am i spelling that right?), sitting on a bench on the Grassy Knoll, and they knew the groundskeeper - and when the shooting started they got up, and she looked and saw a policeman with a rifle behind the fence, and they ran north away from the street. She also said that a few days her and her brother tried to report what they saw to the DPD but they were told not to bother. Her brother has since passed away she said.

And while some people mention a women with a baby, she is not that person.

I still would like to know exactly where the park bench she was sitting on was located.

Thanks,

BK

Wow, so the Badgeman theory might not be so farfetched after all. I'm surprised they had the courage to report this to the DPD. Of course, it didn't take them long to catch on that reporting it a second time or to the FBI or Secret Service probably wouldn't be such a great idea.

Imagine the fear they lived with all those yeas.

Curiouser and curiouser..........

However, in his affidavit of 22/11/63, he makes no mention of going to the railroad yard.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/13/1339-001.gif

In his affidavit, he runs across the street to the corner of the park, hears the news about JFK from Gloria Calvery, goes back inside the TSBD, phones his wife and then stands guard at the elevators; staying there until he accompanies the police to the upper floors and leaves Jack Dougherty in charge of the elevators.

Exactly, Robert.

That's why I asked several pages ago why Shelley had lied or had had a memory lapse (in his affidavit).

--Tommy

There is just the slimmest of chances Shelley was attempting to be brief in his affidavit. When he said he went back to the building after running across the street and hearing the news about JFK, the unspoken trip to the railroad yard may have been included.

However, this seems unlikely, especially considering the testimony given by Vicki Adams. She corroborates Shelley's affidavit when she sees him at the elevators, yet she brings serious doubt upon his testimony about his trip to the railroad yard as she testified to leaving the fourth floor, at a run, immediately after the last shot. She would have arrived at the 1st floor within a minute and there is no way Shelley could have made it to the railroad yard and back to be there ahead of her.

She must have indeed been very fast. She was on the stairway ahead of Oswald, and so far ahead of him, she did not even hear him on the noisy stairs above her. And, she was on the 1st floor before Truly and Baker arrived.

There are a few problems, though. Shelley is already at the elevators when Miss Adams arrives at the 1st floor, yet, according to Shelley's affidavit, he has had time to run out to the concrete island, return to the TSBD and phone his wife before arriving at the elevators. His testimony tells us he was assigned, by Truly, to guard the elevators, yet he is already guarding the elevators when Miss Adams sees him, well before the arrival of Baker/Truly.

The real kicker here is that Miss Adams testifies to going to the railroad yard, as well, and then returning to the TSBD. Upon arriving at the TSBD, she goes to the front of the building and listens to a two-way police radio on a lone police motorcycle parked in front of the building, which can only be Baker's. To get an understanding of the impossibility of Miss Adams seeing Baker's motorcycle, read this excerpt from Baker's testimony:

"Mr. BELIN - Do you remember about how long you stayed on the roof?

Mr. BAKER - It was a little over 5 minutes.

Mr. BELIN - When you continued moving on the elevator after you talked to Inspector Sawyer how far did you go on the elevator?

Mr. BAKER - We went to the, I believe it would be the first floor there.

Mr. BELIN - All right. You got off the elevator then?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Did you leave Mr. Truly or did you stay with him?

Mr. BAKER - I left Mr. Truly there.

Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER - I immediately went on out. I was with this motorcade and I went right on straight through the front door and got on my motorcycle and tried to find out what happened to the motorcade."

If Miss Adams was as slow to descend from the 4th floor as many defenders of the WC would have us believe, and for her to arrive on the 1st floor and see Shelley guarding the elevators AFTER truly had ordered him to do so, she would have arrived back from the railroad yard so late that Baker and his motorcycle would have been long gone, following the motorcade to Parkland.

None of the testimonies of Baker, Shelley and Adams support each other.

As far as I am concerned, everything we know about the interrogation of Oswald, be it from Harry Holmes, Fritz, the FBI or Vincent Bugliosi, is second hand information.

Why would anyone be inclined to believe one source over another?

Did Sean Murphy not essentially prove that Fritz copied his notes from the notes of one of the FBI agents?

Yes, Sean made a very strong case for that - Bookhout - but I think Hosty also took notes and if I'm not mistaken, when asked a question by Fritz, Oswald once replied that he already answered that question and told Fritz to check his notes as he wrote it down - so Fritz, in Oswald's opinion, took notes himself and didn't just copy them.

It would be appropriate for Sean to repost those notes here so we can discuss them further.

In the meantime, I will go back over what Bugliosi has to say as I recall he devoted quite a bit of detail to Oswald's interrogations.

What I want to know specifically is how many interrogation sessions were there and who was sitting in on them?

And we know that Oswald actually told Fritz to check his notes because......?

Did Sean Murphy not essentially prove that Fritz copied his notes from the notes of one of the FBI agents?

Awww, he left. I hope I didn't hurt his feelings.

No you are wrong there, Dave. I'm an independent contractor, and that allows me to check in every few hours to see what is happening.

You, on the other hand, get here in the early morning and don't leave until WAY after midnight; probably only getting up to take a crap. It is 10:14 P.M. here on the West Coast, what is it in Indiana, 2:14 A.M.??

Get a life!

However, in his affidavit of 22/11/63, he makes no mention of going to the railroad yard.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/13/1339-001.gif

In his affidavit, he runs across the street to the corner of the park, hears the news about JFK from Gloria Calvery, goes back inside the TSBD, phones his wife and then stands guard at the elevators; staying there until he accompanies the police to the upper floors and leaves Jack Dougherty in charge of the elevators.

Good eye, Tommy. Yes they are walking in the middle of the street.

A closer look at Shelley's testimony backs this up.

"Mr. BALL - You went to the concrete between the two Elm Streets?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, where they split.
Mr. BALL - You went out there and then what did you do?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, officers started running down to the railroad yards and Billy and I walked down that way.
Mr. BALL - How did you get down that way; what course did you take?
Mr. SHELLEY - We walked down the middle of the little street.
Mr. BALL - The dead-end street?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes."

So, Dave, enquiring minds want to know: How many hours a day are you at your computer, and when is the last time you went outside?

Dave!! You're still here! LOL don't you have anything better to do on a Friday night?

Orders from my Langley bosses, Robert. I've got no choice. Earl Warren chained me to my desk in September 1964 and I haven't had a free day since. Nobody can find the key to the damn leg irons either.

I don't believe a word of it, Dave. I know guys like you, though. Still living in their mother's basement and spend so much time on the computer, they haven't seen the light of day in years.

Pathetic, actually.