Robert Prudhomme
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Posts posted by Robert Prudhomme
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Don't you think a detective would describe a bullet as "steel" jacketed for the simple fact the bullet had a steel colour to it, and a bullet as "copper" jacketed because it had a copper colour to it?
Obviously not, because CE573 is copper-colored and it is the bullet taken out of Walker's house:
Let me guess---573 is a fake?
And don't get me started on SA Frazier, the FBI's firearms "expert", who can't tell the difference between bullet diameter and calibre.
And he lied when he said this too, right Bob?.....
Mr. EISENBERG - Can you think of any reason why someone might have called this a steel-jacketed bullet?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; except that some individuals commonly refer to rifle bullets as steel-jacketed bullets, when they actually in fact just have a copper-alloy jacket.
LOL Oh you are a slippery one, aren't you, Dave? LOL
Okay, let's get down to "brass" tacks here.
The majority of the public, including you, but not Frazier, do not understand the composition of the cladding materials used to jacket lead bullets.
Bullets that are said to be copper jacketed, and these include the majority of N. American bullets, are not really clad in copper but, rather, in a brass known as gilding metal; typically comprising a mixture of 95% copper and 5% zinc.
There are "copper" jacketed bullets made by Winchester called "Silver-tips" that have an outer plating of nickel that, if an observer did not know better, might be referred to as "steel" jacketed.
Steel jacketed bullets come mostly from Europe and Asia and the strange thing is, the only way to identify most of them is with a magnet. To keep the steel jacket from rusting, a thin coating of brass gilding metal was applied. Side by side with "copper" jacketed bullets they are indistinguishable. However, some steel jacketed bullets were given a light coating of zinc and zinc, being grey, could easily be mistaken for steel.
However, there is one material used extensively to jacket bullets known as "cupro-nickel", an alloy of copper and nickel, that has many times been mistaken for a "steel" jacket due to the shiny silver colour of the jacket.
There is no telling what the bullet removed from Gen. Walker's home was made of but, I'll bet it looked more like these bullets in the link below than it did CE 573.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:8mm_Mauser_stripper_clip,_1941_Turkish_military_production.JPG
P.S. SA Frazier was either dumber than a box of rocks and didn't know his butt from his elbow OR he was completely aware of everything I just posted, as any firearms "expert" would be expected to be, and lied through his teeth when responding to the WC lawyer's question. Why am I not surprised an FBI agent would lie under oath to the WC?
Bump....just in case you didn't see my reply, Mr. Von Pain.
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And, of course, now that I've made a fool of Dave regarding CE 573, he simply ignores the post.
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Don't you think a detective would describe a bullet as "steel" jacketed for the simple fact the bullet had a steel colour to it, and a bullet as "copper" jacketed because it had a copper colour to it?
Obviously not, because CE573 is copper-colored and it is the bullet taken out of Walker's house:
Let me guess---573 is a fake?
And don't get me started on SA Frazier, the FBI's firearms "expert", who can't tell the difference between bullet diameter and calibre.
And he lied when he said this too, right Bob?.....
Mr. EISENBERG - Can you think of any reason why someone might have called this a steel-jacketed bullet?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; except that some individuals commonly refer to rifle bullets as steel-jacketed bullets, when they actually in fact just have a copper-alloy jacket.
LOL Oh you are a slippery one, aren't you, Dave? LOL
Okay, let's get down to "brass" tacks here.
The majority of the public, including you, but not Frazier, do not understand the composition of the cladding materials used to jacket lead bullets.
Bullets that are said to be copper jacketed, and these include the majority of N. American bullets, are not really clad in copper but, rather, in a brass known as gilding metal; typically comprising a mixture of 95% copper and 5% zinc.
There are "copper" jacketed bullets made by Winchester called "Silver-tips" that have an outer plating of nickel that, if an observer did not know better, might be referred to as "steel" jacketed.
Steel jacketed bullets come mostly from Europe and Asia and the strange thing is, the only way to identify most of them is with a magnet. To keep the steel jacket from rusting, a thin coating of brass gilding metal was applied. Side by side with "copper" jacketed bullets they are indistinguishable. However, some steel jacketed bullets were given a light coating of zinc and zinc, being grey, could easily be mistaken for steel.
However, there is one material used extensively to jacket bullets known as "cupro-nickel", an alloy of copper and nickel, that has many times been mistaken for a "steel" jacket due to the shiny silver colour of the jacket.
There is no telling what the bullet removed from Gen. Walker's home was made of but, I'll bet it looked more like these bullets in the link below than it did CE 573.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:8mm_Mauser_stripper_clip,_1941_Turkish_military_production.JPG
P.S. SA Frazier was either dumber than a box of rocks and didn't know his butt from his elbow OR he was completely aware of everything I just posted, as any firearms "expert" would be expected to be, and lied through his teeth when responding to the WC lawyer's question. Why am I not surprised an FBI agent would lie under oath to the WC?
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That would make sense. We always got things in Canada a few years after they came out in the States. Do you recall "Hires" Root Beer in the brown bottles?
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In many cases, the merchant who has the Coke machine on his premises had to buy the Coke machine, as well as but the product from Coca-Cola. BUT they weren't necessarily prohibited from putting other brands in the machine, as long as the top 2,3,or 4 rows were strictly Coca-Cola. So in 1963 you could theoretically go to buy a Coke, and end up with a Sprite, a Pepsi, a Barqs root beer, or the hot new drink that the youth were making popular, Mountain Dew [a Pepsi product]. In the town where I grew up, if it came from the Coke machine, it was a "coke"...not a "pop," not a "soda," sometimes a "soft drink"...and sometimes it was actually a Coca-Cola.
I recall Seven-Up from 1963 but, didn't Sprite come out a few years later? Or was it on the market in the USA earlier than in Canada?
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The detectives who recovered the bullet from the Walker residence described it as "steel" jacketed, yet CE 573 is most definitely copper coloured.
Steel is metal. Why pretend it isn't?
In fact, the dictionary tells us that steel can, indeed, contain "copper" elements:
STEEL (noun) --- 1. A generally hard, strong, durable, malleable alloy of iron and carbon, usually containing between 0.2 and 1.5 percent carbon, often with other constituents such as manganese, chromium, nickel, molybdenum, copper, tungsten, cobalt, or silicon, depending on the desired alloy properties, and widely used as a structural material.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/steel
So, as I said, you're talking semantics here. And as I recall, Robert Frazier of the FBI talks about this "Steel" vs. "Metal Jacketed" stuff in his WC testimony. IIRC, Frazier said that many times the two terms are used interchangeably within FBI reports.
Dave, that is likely one of the top ten pathetic responses I have ever seen on a forum such as this.
You might fool the newbies, and the casual browsers but, don't you think a detective would describe a bullet as "steel" jacketed for the simple fact the bullet had a steel colour to it, and a bullet as "copper" jacketed because it had a copper colour to it?
And don't get me started on SA Frazier, the FBI's firearms "expert", who can't tell the difference between bullet diameter and calibre.
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LOL Was it the steel jacketed bullet that gave Oswald away?
Merely semantics. "Steel" vs. "Full Metal Jacketed". Naturally, you think CE573 is yet another phony piece of evidence. And yet the stupid idiots who put that bullet into evidence couldn't manage to plant a bullet that could be positively linked to the patsy's rifle. Dumbbell plotters all.
Dave
Quit talking in circles.
The detectives who recovered the bullet from the Walker residence described it as "steel" jacketed, yet CE 573 is most definitely copper coloured.
How do you explain this "minor" discrepancy?
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12) How did a German magazine learn of Oswald’s connection to the Walker shooting before the DPD?
I haven't the foggiest. But I'd be willing to bet that this is another one of the hundreds of mangled "myths" associated with the JFK case. But I've never heard about this one myself.
But there were some American reporters who were right on the ball regarding a possible connection between Oswald and the Walker shooting. As early as Saturday afternoon, November 23rd, during one of Chief Jesse Curry's many hallway interviews, a reporter asked Curry this question (which certainly was a good question indeed):
"Is there any connection yet between this and the firing at Major General Walker?"
Curry's reply was "I do not know."
LOL Was it the steel jacketed bullet that gave Oswald away?
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What's the plan here, Bill? Give him 50+ questions to answer just to occupy his time so he'll quit bothering us on the other threads?
I've posted very few times since this forum re-opened on July 16, 2013, and yet somehow I've apparently been "bothering" Mr. Prudhomme incessantly. That's curious indeed.
What can I say, Mr. Von Pain, it is what it is.
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What's the plan here, Bill? Give him 50+ questions to answer just to occupy his time so he'll quit bothering us on the other threads?
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Since this is a thread dedicated to Oswald's coke (long overdue imo), I would like to chip in with a bit of trivia that may or may not add any value to the discussion.
During the 1950's, most Coke Vending Machines dispensed 6 1/2 ounce bottles of coke. In 1963, Some of these older Vending machines were still in operation, but newer machines had been introduced that offered the 10 ounce size. And I believe the "Giant" 12 ounce coke bottles were also just coming out around that time.
If you look at some of the Lunch room photos, there are empty bottles and crates. It might be interesting to see what size cokes were being sold in the Coke Machine.
I can tell you from experience that 6 1/2 ounce cokes went down fast.
Now that you mention it, I'm having a flashback to the scene in Dr. Strangelove where the Canadian Colonel convinces the American sergeant to shoot open the coke machine to get change for the pay phone in order to call the White House.
I think Oswald got a classic coke.
LOL The colonel was British, actually, not Canadian, and his rank was Group Captain (RAF), not colonel. We don't really sound like that do we?
Group Captain Lionel Mandrake (Peter Sellers), and the one with the M1 carbine shooting up the Coke machine was American Colonel "Bat" Guano, played by the great Keenan Wynn.
It was indeed a classic, and the classic line in that scene belongs to Keenan Wynn who, just before shooting up the Coke machine, opines "You'll have to answer to the Coca-Cola Company!"
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I was actually enjoying this thread. Why do you insist on hijacking threads and knocking them off-topic, David Von Pain [sic][~sigh~]?
Sorry. I guess it did get "off topic" yet again. So easy for that to happen, especially when a person (Bill Kelly) asked me a series of questions within this now-derailed thread. (Of course, Bill isn't to be scolded in this "off topic" regard, is he Bob? Only me.)
Should I have just ignored Bill's list of inquiries to me, Bob?
~reciprocal sigh~
Knocking threads off-topic is how you operate; it is your "modus operandi", so to speak.
And, you have not been missed.
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*SIGH*
I was actually enjoying this thread. Why do you insist on hijacking threads and knocking them off-topic, David Von Pain?
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"12:31: Officer Baker enters TSBD front Entrance, runs past "Prayer Man" and goes to back w Truly, who shouts twice to release elevator. (no response). They see 2 white men by the elevators. (probably Shelley and Lovelady according to Adams) 21"
I am still trying to understand how Lovelady and Shelley were able to proceed West on Elm St. to the concrete island, plus able to look back and see Truly/Baker entering the TSBD, yet be waiting in the vicinity of the elevators to be spotted first by Vicki Adams and then by Marrion Baker; especially if we read Shelley's testimony, in which he describes himself and Lovelady then going to the railroad yards before returning to the TSBD by the rear door. By her testimony, I think Miss Adams was on her way out of the building through the back door before Truly/Baker arrived at the elevators. If not, there is no way they could have not run into each other on the stairs.
Also, according to Miss Adams' testimony, she had returned from the railroad yard to the TSBD and stopped to listen to the two way radio on a police motorcycle parked in front of the TSBD. Presumably, this was Baker's motorcycle, further proving she had managed to get out of the TSBD before Truly and Baker had entered.
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THOSE WHO PLOTTED THE MURDER AND SETTING UP OSWALD AS THE PATSY WANTED THE CASTRO-COMMIE CONSPIRACY TO BE DISCOVERED AND FOLLOWED, AND THE LONE NUT SCENARIO ONLY CAME INTO PLAY WHEN THE COVER STORY DIDN'T PAN OUT.
YOU SHOULD KNOW ALL OF THIS STUFF DAVE.
Sure I know all of that stuff, Bill. Does that mean I have to swallow it like you have?
You're the one who swallowed the Patsy cover-story hook, line and sinker, and after being corrected, and are in denial and refuse to believe you've been suckered. You can't cheat an honest man.
You asked me questions that I answered, why don't you answer mine?
How did the rifle get in the building if Frazer didn't drive it from Irving?
How did the rifle get from Dallas to New Orleans and back again if Oswald didn't take it with him on the bus?
Who was that man in the window when Oswald was with Baker and Truly on the second floor?
Did that man leave fingerprints on the boxes, which were moved around while he was there - as the photo evidence proves?
How many fingerprints are on the boxes besides Oswald's (and Malcolm Wallace's) and the Cops?
You asked the questions, why not answer them?
*chirp*chirp* go the crickets in the ensuing silence.....
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...he wasn't on the Sixth Floor when the assassination happened.
Then how did OSWALD'S rifle get on the sixth floor, Bill?
And why did Oswald lie about the "curtain rods"? What possible reason would Oswald have had for telling such a false tale to Buell Frazier (twice)?
And you think it's just a coincidence that OSWALD'S prints were all over the boxes in the Sniper's Nest--the same nest where Kennedy's killer was located at 12:30 PM?
My, what lucky patsy plotters.
If you would like to discuss the circumstantial evidence in this case, might I suggest you begin another thread? This thread is about, I believe, who the unidentified man is on the top of the steps of the TSBD.
I don't suppose you have any ideas on his identity, do you?
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Allen Crop
Click on the image to view larger.
Is that Barney Fife with three stripes, motorcycle helmet and glasses? Sure looks like him. Rest ashored, I now feel more confident that the crime scene is secured. Is that a wire going up to his hear? That's must be from where he gets his instructions. And Where's Andy?
And I love the Conspiracy Theorists debunking the Conspiracy Theory and a Lone Nutter debunking the debunker. That's teamwork.
Chin strap.
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While some think the arguments against the SBT are all "old hat", and not worth discussing further, I believe, outside of the new material on Prayer Man on the front steps of the TSBD, there are not really any arguments about anything to do with the assassination that have not been discussed and argued almost into oblivion.
That being said, I believe this forum is still titled The Education Forum and, for the benefit of people new to the assassination, discussing the old arguments is still relevant. Not only that, do we know ALL of the reasons the SBT is an impossibility? I'm interested in hearing the flaws others have uncovered.
So, hit me with your best shot. What, to you, is the clincher that sinks the SBT?
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Mr. Vaughan
Would you elaborate, please?
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Major development.
Gary Mack has just emailed John Mytton, a LN poster at Duncan's forum:
While the image is an interesting find, the Prayer Man question has probably been answered. I recently sent the Couch and Darnell frames to Buell Frazier and asked what he thought. First, he wouldn’t confirm himself being on the top step because the image isn’t clear enough. He then re-confirmed that Lovelady and Shelley were out on the steps with him, just as he has always said, but he couldn’t confirm Shelley, either, due to the image quality.
Next I asked about Shelley’s appearance and learned he was a little taller than Lovelady (who was 5’8”), had red hair and a slender build. When I asked if Shelley usually wore a coat and tie to work Buell said no, he “dressed daily in slacks and sport shirts.” And he repeated that he, Lovelady and Shelley stayed on the steps for “a short time” after the last shot, but he didn’t estimate how long.
So unless Buell Frazier is still part of the cover-up plot, TSBD “Miscellaneous Department” manager William Shelley, by elimination, must be Prayer Man. According to Shelley’s testimony, “I didn’t do anything for a minute” following the last shot, so the man was standing on the steps before, during and after the time Darnell and Couch filmed those brief scenes.
Gary Mack
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This is a real breakthrough, and I for one am very grateful to Gary for taking the trouble to contact Buell Wesley Frazier.
Why is it a breakthrough?
Well, not because of the Shelley idea.
For Shelley's own testimony, and that of the person with him Billy Lovelady, rules him out as Prayer Man:
Mr. BALL - How did you happen to see Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.
Mr. BALL - And Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building?
MMr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in.
Mr. BALL - Were they moving at the time, walking or running?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, they were moving, yes.
Darnell shows Baker just a couple of seconds away from the building entrance.
Prayer Man is still standing up on the steps.
So Shelley is ruled out. Period.
(Unless, that is, someone wants to accuse him and Lovelady of lying in their WC testimony about their run out on to the 'island'. Who wants to go first?)
The reason Buell Wesley Frazier's response is a breakthrough is that Bill Shelley appears to be the only possibility BWF himself can offer when presented with the Prayer Man image. (Although it's not quite clear from Gary's message whether BWF himself nominated Shelley or whether that's Gary's own suggestion.)
Given that he is not giving us some new revelation as to the presence of some hitherto unmentioned other person on the steps at that time (i.e. a stranger to the building), and given that Prayer Man cannot possibly be Shelley, we have just received startling confirmation that Prayer Man can only reasonably be Lee Oswald.
BWF probably knows it's Lee but--for the most understandable reasons in the world--cannot say so.
However, to give him credit, he's just done the next best thing.
Awfully kind of Mr. Mack to cc the message to you.
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Robert,
The mystery man taking movie pictures was, of course, Abraham Zapruder, whose business premises were on the 4th and 5th floors of the Dal-Tex building.
As he made his way back to his office through the Plaza after the shooting, Zapruder had met with Dallas Morning News reporter Harry McCormick, who told Zapruder that the Secret Service would want to see his film, and McCormick immediately went off in search of Forrest Sorrels, the Secret Service SAIC in Dallas.
A few minutes later, Beatrice Hester, one of Zapruder's employees, who had been filmed in the Plaza by Zapruder prior to the arrival of the motorcade, told a DPD officer about Zapruder's film, and the police went to Zapruder's office in an effort to obtain it. However, as he had already agreed with Harry McCormick that he would give the film to the Secret Service, Zapruder refused to turn it over to the DPD officers. By the time Sawyer heard back from his officers, Sorrels had arrived at Zapruder's office, so Sawyer left it to him and the rest of the story is, as the saying goes, history.
Chris.
Of course, this makes perfect sense. I actually had read that Zapruder had an office in the Dal-Tex Building, but I never made the connection here. From Sawyer's testimony, I understood it to be that someone was actually filming the motorcade from the upper floors of the Dal-Tex Building. Oh well.
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"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist."
Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961
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As much as the fellow in the photo looks like a younger HW Bush, and as tempting as it is to believe it was him, I never seriously considered this as a real possibility. I mean, just how brazen do we think the CIA were, after all?
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Whoa, fellas, you're still way ahead of yourselves, IMO. BEFORE you can say Prayer Man is probably Oswald, IMO, you really need to go through the photographic record and identify everyone else on the steps. If you can't do that, then you need to accept the possibility that unidentified people were on the steps, and that, therefore, Prayer Man could be an unidentified person. In other words, almost anyone.
Where are these people in the photographs? And who were the other people around them?
Buell Wesley Frazier (11-22-63 affidavit for Dallas County, 24H209) “I was standing [etc]
Pat,
The location of every single TSBD employee (bar Oswald) has been established for the time of the assassination.
Of all the TSBD employees (bar Oswald) who turned up for work that day, the following place themselves on the front steps:
Avery Davis
Judy McCully
Ruth Dean
Madie Reese
Carl Jones
Roy Lewis
Joe Molina
Otis Williams
Pauline Sanders
Sarah Stanton
Bill Shelley
Billy Lovelady
Buell Wesley Frazier
It has already been safely established that none of the above can possibly be Prayer Man.
If you disagree, perhaps you could
a ) identify who in the above list you believe Prayer Man might be
and
b ) support that claim with evidence.
In the likely event that you cannot support any such claim with evidence, will it then be your argument that Prayer Man is at least as likely to be a non-TSBD employee as to be a TSBD employee?
In order to claim these people can not possibly be Prayer Man, you need to be able to identify each and every one of them in the films and photographs. But we can't do that with any authority because we don't know what most of these people looked like.
We can do a head count, however. Thirteen TSBD employees claimed they were on the steps. So, how many people are on the steps in Wiegman? Or Altgens?
On quick glance, I count eight or nine. Which means three or four of these employees could be Prayer Man.
Just a wild guess but, I think we can safely rule out the ones in skirts and dresses; unless there was a side to Oswald we are unaware of.
Oswald Leaving TSBD?
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
Hello Richard
Please do not think I was trying to take you to task for errors in the timeline; on the contrary, your timeline makes it much easier to spot discrepancies between the various testimonies.
Keep up the good work!