Robert Prudhomme

Quote from William Shelley's testimony to the Warren Commission, April 7, 1964:

"(When asked with whom he had lunch out on the front steps) "Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, she's with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards."

This is an odd thing for Shelley to say, as it is in direct contradiction to the statement given by Lloyd Viles to the FBI on March 23, 1964, in which Viles claims to be on the other side of Elm St. from the TSBD at the time of the assassination:

http://www.history-matters.com/analysis/Witness/

Is it possible that Viles ate his lunch on the steps of the TSBD, as Shelley claimed, and then crossed to the other side of Elm St. before the motorcade arrived?

From the Warren Commission testimony of Inspector J. Herbert Sawyer, DPD, April 8, 1964:

"Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of that occurred at the Texas School Book Depository that afternoon while you were there that might have any relevancy about where the shots came from, other than what you have told thus far?

Mr. SAWYER. Well, I had heard some of the officers come to me and said there was supposed to be, somebody told them about a woman that had taken some pictures of that window, and then one of the sergeants came to me, and I am not sure who the sergeant is now, but anyway he said that there was on the building immediately west east, I am sorry cast of the Texas School Book Depository, that a man up in one of the upper windows up there was taking some moving pictures of what had gone on.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever contact this man? Do you know what his name is?

Mr. SAWYER. No; I don't know his name. The sergeant told me that the man would not give them the pictures, that he was waiting for the Secret Service or the FBI, I forget which now, and I sent the sergeant and two men back over there with instructions to bring that man and his pictures to me.

When they got back over there, Forrest Sorrels of the Secret Service was already there, and at least they so reported back to me, and was talking to this man.

So I told them to go ahead with their normal assignments and since Forrest was already there and talking to him, I knew that that part would be taken care of.

Mr. BELIN. You don't know what his name was or what the results of it was?

Mr. SAWYER. I don't know."

This would be a very interesting video for JFK researchers to examine, if it still exists. Has anyone ever heard if it survived being "taken care of" by the Secret Service?

I just wanted to interject my opinion here: this is the most fascinating thread I have ever read on here (since 2008 or so). I am most impressed with everyone's contributions here. I must admit that I started out feeling that this was a bit like a Rorschach Test with a healthy does of wishful thinking. I am just glad I kept reading! I am very compelled to believe that Prayer Man is indeed Oswald- the Blu Ray stills are much better tools than the earlier grainy clips.

Excellent job everyone.

My sentiments, as well, Vince. This thread just keeps getting better and better, and I am addicted to it now like serial installments of a detective story. I get up each morning and race to my computer to see what new material has been unearthed.

I only worry about one thing. What will we do with our time if it is proven that Prayer Man IS Oswald??

Thanks Richard, i too would like to hear more from Alken.

Why would Truly be suspicious of Oswald less than fifteen minutes after he saw him, unless there is another factor?

My sentiments precisely. And, after Truly informed Fritz of Oswald being absent, in what he believed were confidential tones, a reporter asks Truly "What about this Oswald fellow?"

There was a second powerful reason why, in the immediate aftermath of the assassination, Billy Lovelady had to be artificially kept on the front steps:

he resembled Oswald.

We underestimate at our peril the sheer panic that must have been abroad at DPD HQ and at FBI Special Branch.

The suspect in custody was claiming to have been out front at the time of the assassination.

He was describing events that only someone who had actually been there could have known.

And there was every danger that a photo or film would emerge showing him at the front entrance.

The sum of all fears seemed to come true when people started looking closely at the doorway area in the Altgens 6 photograph which had gone out on newswire.

Cue an immediate investigation by the FBI.

They made a beeline for Billy Lovelady, as he would recall for Dom Bonafede several months later:

The relief of the agents tells us all we need to know:

Oswald's being out front at the time of the shooting was an all too live scenario, for it was the scenario that he himself was claiming in custody.

If Oswald himself were placing himself far from the front entrance--such as in or around the second-floor lunchroom--then there would be no earthly cause for worry about what the assassination-time visual record might thrown up.

But he wasn't, so there was.

The authorities lucked out in a big way on its being Lovelady in Altgens, but what guarantee was there that another Oswaldian image would not show up over the coming days?

And what better way--what other way--to indemnify themselves against this eventuality than to keep Lovelady on the steps for a good 3 minutes should he be needed to explain away any such image?

(That Lovelady has been seriously proposed as Prayer Man by several researchers over the past couple of weeks has shown, this time rather farcically, the continued explanatory power he still holds for those intent on keeping Oswald away from that front entrance.)

Speaking of other Oswaldian images, I've always found it rather odd that, considering the number of people in Dealey Plaza that day, so few photographs of the assassination have emerged.

BTW, could you provide a link to the statement or testimony from Pauline Sanders that confirms this?

Thank you, Sean. I must seem a bit anal asking for documentation but, I don't believe in giving skeptics and LN's any more reasons than they already have for taking cheap shots at your research.

Keep up the good work.

BTW, could you provide a link to the statement or testimony from Pauline Sanders that confirms this?

Buell Wesley Frazier, interview of 07/07/13:

"I turned to Sarah, she said someone shot the President."

Buell Wesley Frazier, testimony to the WC, 1964:

"Mr. BALL - Anybody else you can remember?

Mr. FRAZIER - There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name."

Once again, what was Sarah's last name, where did she work in the TSBD, and where was she standing during and after the assassination?

Robert, that's Sarah Stanton.

She was standing beside Pauline Sanders, who was standing over at the east end of the entrance.

Sorry, Sean, I posted before I saw you had replied.

I hate to keep asking questions but, considering the seriousness of our topic, what proof is there that Sarah Stanton was on the east side of the entrance?

Please understand, I am more than prepared to be convinced P.M. was not Sarah Stanton. I simply have no desire to have some LN throw this in our faces later on, should we be mistaken.

No problem, Robert. And asking questions is what we're all here for.

Pauline Sanders places Sarah Stanton right beside her (PM is conspicuously on his own) over on the east side of the entrance (PM is over on the west side).

Thank you. That clears things up rather nicely.

Well, nothing left to ask but, WHO IS PRAYER MAN??

Buell Wesley Frazier, interview of 07/07/13:

"I turned to Sarah, she said someone shot the President."

Buell Wesley Frazier, testimony to the WC, 1964:

"Mr. BALL - Anybody else you can remember?

Mr. FRAZIER - There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name."

Once again, what was Sarah's last name, where did she work in the TSBD, and where was she standing during and after the assassination?

Robert, that's Sarah Stanton.

She was standing beside Pauline Sanders, who was standing over at the east end of the entrance.

Sorry, Sean, I posted before I saw you had replied.

I hate to keep asking questions but, considering the seriousness of our topic, what proof is there that Sarah Stanton was on the east side of the entrance?

Please understand, I am more than prepared to be convinced P.M. was not Sarah Stanton. I simply have no desire to have some LN throw this in our faces later on, should we be mistaken.

Buell Wesley Frazier, interview of 07/07/13:

"I turned to Sarah, she said someone shot the President."

Buell Wesley Frazier, testimony to the WC, 1964:

"Mr. BALL - Anybody else you can remember?

Mr. FRAZIER - There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name."

Once again, what was Sarah's last name, where did she work in the TSBD, and where was she standing during and after the assassination?

I believe I have identified her. Her name is Sarah D. Stanton, d.o.b. 06/09/22. This link is to her statement to the FBI, in which she claimed to be standing on the front steps of the TSBD with Shelley, Williams, Lovelady and Mrs. N.K. Sanders. She does not tell us where she was standing on the steps but, she does tell us this, though, "I heard three shots after the President's car passed the front of the building but I could not see the President's car at that time".

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=171505

Why was she unable to see the President's car "at that time"?

Buell Wesley Frazier, interview of 07/07/13:

"I turned to Sarah, she said someone shot the President."

Buell Wesley Frazier, testimony to the WC, 1964:

"Mr. BALL - Anybody else you can remember?

Mr. FRAZIER - There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name."

Once again, what was Sarah's last name, where did she work in the TSBD, and where was she standing during and after the assassination?

This has been a great thread, and it has revealed testimony, statements and interviews that clearly show the lunchroom encounter between Baker/Truly and Oswald was an evolving fabrication. It has also shown us a person on the steps of the TSBD that 1) no one can seem to identify and 2) clearly resembles Oswald.

That being said, I would like us all to hold off our celebrations at proving Oswald was outside on the steps of the TSBD until we deal with a small nagging problem I brought up earlier. My suspicions were further aroused after I went to the link Mr. Kelly provided that showed an hour long videotaped interview with Buell Wesley Frazier, dated July 7, 2013, and conducted by the assistant curator of the Sixth Floor Museum. It is an excellent interview, and well worth watching in its entirety. Here is the link again:

http://www.c-span.or...on/10737440831/

The material relevant to this thread begins at about the 35 minute mark, I believe.

In his testimony to the WC, Frazier tells them about the people that were with him on the steps of the TSBD. From his WC testimony:

"Mr. BALL - Did you go out there with somebody?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL - Who did you go out there with?

Mr. FRAZIER - I stayed around there pretty close to Mr. Shelley and this boy Billy Lovelady and just standing there, people talking and just talking about how pretty a day it turned out to be, because I told you earlier it was an old cloudy and misty day and then it didn't look like it was going to be a pretty day at all.

Mr. BALL - And it turned out to be a good day?

Mr. FRAZIER - Pretty sunshiny day.

Mr. BALL - Warm?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; it was pretty warm.

Mr. BALL - Then let's see, there was Billy Lovelady and you were there.

Mr. FRAZIER - Right.

Mr. BALL - Anybody else you can remember?

Mr. FRAZIER - There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name.

Mr. BALL - Were you near the steps?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I was, I was standing about, I believe, one step down from the top there.

Mr. BALL - One step down from the top of the steps?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; standing there by the rail.

Mr. BALL - By steps we are talking about the steps of the entrance to the Building?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Shown in this picture?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Which is Commission's Exhibit No. 362. Can you come over here and show us about where you were standing?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. Like I told you this was an entrance right here.

Mr. BALL - Yes, sir.

Mr. FRAZIER - We have a bar rail running about half way up here. This was the first step and I was standing right around there.

Mr. BALL - Put a mark there. Your name is Frazier, put an "F" there for Frazier.

Mr. FRAZIER - O.K."

"There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name."

In his interview of 07/07/13, Frazier again makes reference a lady being with him, in a disjointed, uncompleted sentence, while speaking about being on the steps of the TSBD at the time of the assassination.

"The lady I was standing next to...."

A few sentences later, he has described seeing Shelley and Lovelady heading for the Triple Underpass. A few minutes after the last shot, Frazier tells us a woman came up to the TSBD steps and tells everyone about the assassination. Frazier's next words, in the interview, are:

"I turned to Sarah, she said someone shot the President."

As we know the FBI conducted interviews with every employee in the building to establish where they were at the time of the assassination, I think it would be wise, at this point, to find out what Sarah's last name was and to examine her interview with the FBI to see where she claimed to be at 12:30 on 22/11/63.

Hoover’s narrative of the events in TSBD as told to President Johnson on Novemberr 29, 1963:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=882&relPageId=5

“He then threw the gun aside and came down….at the entrance of the building he was stopped by police officers and some manager in the building told the police officers, ‘well he’s allright…he works there…you needn’t hold him.’ They let him go. That is how he got out.”

***

...he apparently had come down the five flights of steps – stairway – from the fifth floor…so far we’ve found out the elevator was not used…although he could have used it…but nobody remember whether it was or whether it wasn’t.

***

So, according to Hoover per November 29, there had been no lunch room encounter between Oswald and Baker.

Bjørn Gjerde

Good work Bjorne. That Oswald sure got around that day, to be seen in so many places.

If this were the Imperial Reflex camera Prayer Man was holding, would he be bringing it up to his face to take pictures? As far as I remember, this camera was held at chest level and the photographer looked down into the viewfinder. This was one of the hangups in Marina Oswald's testimony.

Robert,

Good point.

However....

He might have been raising it in order to change the shutter speed and/or the aperture setting...

--Tommy

If I'm not mistaken, I believe both the shutter speed and aperture setting on the Imperial Reflex camera were fixed. It was not that expensive a camera.

Another possibility -- the Imperial Reflex has a plastic knob that turns to advance the film. PM is standing in a shadowy area. He might have raised the camera up higher to get a better look at the film sequence indicator to make sure it had been wound correctly for the next shot. A common camera issue in those days.

Another possibility: Binoculars.

Never thought of binoculars. Good point.

Beyond that I think "Prayer Man" looks like a woman, I think those pushing that Prayer Man must be Oswald are missing something. The TSBD had a second building just up Houston. The employees from that building had access to the TSBD and may very well have mingled with their co-workers on the steps.

Now, is there a full accounting of those employees, so that we can see who was on Elm during the shooting? I'm pretty sure the answer is no.

Pat, which do you think is more likely:

a ) Prayer Man would be a TSBD (Elm Street) employee

or

b ) Prayer would not be a TSBD (Elm Street) employee?

And how likely is it that someone from the other building would "mingle with" co-workers and have their presence there noticed by not a single one of those co-workers?

Why such resistance to the obvious explanation: it's Oswald?

Obvious? You've got to be kidding.

We have a blurry unidentified figure in a photograph that some think looks like Oswald. It could be any one of a number of people, the number of which is unclear. It could even be a woman. From what we have uncovered, nobody standing near this person ever said this person was Oswald. And the existing record suggests that Oswald himself never said he was in this location at the time of the shooting. I mean, nothing. If it was Oswald, he could have said "Don't worry, Marina, I was out front when the shots were fired with lots of people nearby." But no, nothing.

So, there's no one saying it was Oswald...up against a number of people whose stories become problematic if it was Oswald.

And that's where it's likely to rest.

Now, that said, I still find this topic intriguing and worthwhile. Why? A whole bunch of reasons. 1) it arouses interest in the case. 2) it invites study of the record. 3) it may lead somewhere. Several years back, I had this vague notion that the paper bag photographed outside the building was not the paper bag in the FBI photographs. It sounded kinda loopy. But as I dug deeper, I found many indications that this was indeed the case. Did I prove it? Probably not. But was it worthwhile? Yep.

In this instance, you have found some evidence supporting that Baker and Truly saw Oswald as they entered the building. Have you proved it? No. It would be almost impossible to prove it at this point. But have you succeeded in blurring the once accepted fact that after the shooting Oswald was first observed by Baker in the second floor lunch room? And even raised the possibility Oswald was outside when the shots were fired?

For many, the answer will be yes.

Pat:

One thing you're NOT using here is something I heard over and over and over when I first came here:

Occam's razor.

"The principle in philosophy and science that assumptions introduced to explain a thing must not be multiplied beyond necessity, and hence the simplest of several hypotheses is always the best in accounting for unexplained facts."

And the simplest hypothesis in THIS case is that, rather than an unidentified spectator "imported" from another building, perhaps Oswald slipped out the door and onto the top step, unnoticed, at the last possible moment.

It would explain why no one remembered Oswald being there. It would explain why "Prayer Man" resembles Oswald. It would be a logical place for an encounter with Officer Baker, and for Roy Truly to intercede.

Occam's razor.

First rule of Occam's Razor: It only applies in cases where it will support the conclusions of the researcher.

I hate to keep bringing this up, and it may not be such a great idea but, seeing that we have so clearly identified Buell Wesley Frazier on the top steps and, as far as I know, he is still alive and healthy, has anyone ever thought about just asking him outright who the fellow was in the corner beside him?

Is it just me, or does this forum seem to be rather "xxxxx free" lately?

you're kidding, right? They are still here and always will. Most are not posting.

That is more or less what I meant. Why are they so silent, as of late, though? Surely, Mr. Simkin has not intimidated the likes of Craig Lamson?

My personal favourite:

0:49 "...a large wound to his head in the right posterior...."

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md6/pages/Image1.gif

"....and a second wound occurred in the posterior back at about the level of the third thoracic vertebra."

Is it just me, or does this forum seem to be rather "xxxxx free" lately?

If this were the Imperial Reflex camera Prayer Man was holding, would he be bringing it up to his face to take pictures? As far as I remember, this camera was held at chest level and the photographer looked down into the viewfinder. This was one of the hangups in Marina Oswald's testimony.

Robert,

Good point.

However....

He might have been raising it in order to change the shutter speed and/or the aperture setting...

--Tommy

If I'm not mistaken, I believe both the shutter speed and aperture setting on the Imperial Reflex camera were fixed. It was not that expensive a camera.

Another possibility -- the Imperial Reflex has a plastic knob that turns to advance the film. PM is standing in a shadowy area. He might have raised the camera up higher to get a better look at the film sequence indicator to make sure it had been wound correctly for the next shot. A common camera issue in those days.

Very good point, Richard, and a definite possibility.

If this were the Imperial Reflex camera Prayer Man was holding, would he be bringing it up to his face to take pictures? As far as I remember, this camera was held at chest level and the photographer looked down into the viewfinder. This was one of the hangups in Marina Oswald's testimony.

Robert,

Good point.

However....

He might have been raising it in order to change the shutter speed and/or the aperture setting...

--Tommy

If I'm not mistaken, I believe both the shutter speed and aperture setting on the Imperial Reflex camera were fixed. It was not that expensive a camera.

If this were the Imperial Reflex camera Prayer Man was holding, would he be bringing it up to his face to take pictures? As far as I remember, this camera was held at chest level and the photographer looked down into the viewfinder. This was one of the hangups in Marina Oswald's testimony.

Interesting excerpt from Dave Rietzes site (from another forum)

Officer "E"

.......Though I didn't see exactly where the shots came from, I knew in my own mind they probably came from the corner building as the sound was right and because of the pigeons. So I headed there, got off my motor and entered the building (the Texas School Book Depository). It took a while because of the crowd; they had started moving in every direction.

The man who said he was the building superintendent was outside and met me at the door and went in with me. Shortly after I entered the building I confronted Oswald. The man who identified himself as the superintendent said that Oswald was all right, that he was employed there. We left Oswald there, and the supervisor showed me the way upstairs. We couldn't get anyone to send the freight elevator down. In giving the place a quick check, I found nothing that seemed out of the ordinary, so I started back to see what had happened. Not knowing for sure what had happened, I was limited in what I could legally do......"

http://www.jfk-online.com/bowles6.html

Hello Ray

Thank you for posting this interview. Oddly enough, this is the only place I have ever seen Baker actually say the pigeons flew up from the roof of the TSBD. In his WC testimony, he makes a vague reference about the pigeons:

"Mr. BELIN - All right. When you heard the first shot or the first noise, what did you do and what did you see?

Mr. BAKER - Well, to me, it sounded high and I immediately kind of looked up, and I had a feeling that it came from the building, either right in front of me or of the one across to the right of it.

Mr. BELIN - What would the building right in front of you be?

Mr. BAKER - It would be this Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN - That would be the building located on what corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. BAKER - That would be the northwest corner.

Mr. BELIN - All right. And you thought it was either from that building or the building located where?

Mr. BAKER - On the northeast corner.

Mr. BELIN - All right. Did you see or hear or do anything else after you heard the first noise?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. As I was looking up, all these pigeons began to fly up to the top of the buildings here and I saw those come up and start flying around.

Mr. BELIN - From what building, if you know, do you think those pigeons came from?

Mr. BAKER - I wasn't sure, but I am pretty sure they came from the building right on the northwest corner."

Now, towards the end of his testimony, he describes being on the roof of the TSBD and almost tells the WC that the pigeons were flushed from the roof of the TSBD.

"Mr. BELIN - On the top of the School Book Depository Building on Exhibit 362. All right. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER - Then I came back down and I went and checked this building right here. It is an old deserted room there of some type.

Mr. BELIN - Some kind of a shack on the northeast corner of the building?

Mr. BAKER - That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Out there. What did you see when you saw that shack?

Mr. BAKER - As I approached it, and looked under it, there wasn't anything under it, and you could tell that pigeons had been roosting there for sometime.

Mr. BELIN - All right. There were indications that pigeons had been roosting there?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER - No indications that anyone would be around there.

Mr. BELIN - Did you see any pigeons there as you approached it?

Mr. BAKER - No, sir. They had all--at the time I kind of glanced and they were still flying around in the sky up there.

Mr. BELIN - What did you do?

SENATOR COOPER - You referred to pigeons, did you see some pigeon droppings?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.

SENATOR COOPER - Had they been disturbed in any way?

Mr. BAKER - No, sir."

"No, sir. They had all...." Had all what? Been flushed off of the roof by the sound of a gunshot?

Finally, we come to the interview you gave us.

"A little past half way down Houston (between Main and Elm), I heard the first shot. I could tell it came from somewhere in front of me, and high. As I looked up I noticed all the pigeons flushed off the top of the building on the corner ahead of me."

Finally, Baker tells us where the pigeons were at the time of the first shot. It may seem a bit strange that I am so interested in a flock of pigeons being flushed off the roof of the TSBD but, think about how unlikely this is. The 6th floor window was two storeys down from the roof, and there was a five foot parapet around the perimeter of the roof. If the pigeons were actually on the roof, and not the parapet, would they not be somewhat sheltered from the blast of a rifle pointed away from the TSBD?

What is far more probable, is a shot from the Dal-Tex Building pointed down Elm St. The pigeons on the roof would then be inside the cone of influence created by the muzzle blast of the rifle and would indeed have been flushed off the roof.

Would most of the pigeons sitting on all of the buildings in Dealey Plaza have taken flight upon hearing a shot, or would only the pigeons sitting on the shooter's building have taken off en mass?

I'm not a pigeon expert, but the former seems reasonable to me.

--Tommy

Hello Tommy

You have to understand that the noise of a rifle is far louder when you are equal with or ahead of the muzzle. Standing behind someone who is shooting a rifle will greatly diminish the noise of the muzzle blast. Also, any physical barriers between your ears and the blast of a rifle, such as being on the roof of the TSBD and having someone on the 6th floor shoot a rifle away from the building, will certainly offer a much reduced noise level.

If anything, I would expect pigeons to be flushed from surrounding buildings, but NOT from the TSBD, for these very reasons.

Interesting excerpt from Dave Rietzes site (from another forum)

Officer "E"

.......Though I didn't see exactly where the shots came from, I knew in my own mind they probably came from the corner building as the sound was right and because of the pigeons. So I headed there, got off my motor and entered the building (the Texas School Book Depository). It took a while because of the crowd; they had started moving in every direction.

The man who said he was the building superintendent was outside and met me at the door and went in with me. Shortly after I entered the building I confronted Oswald. The man who identified himself as the superintendent said that Oswald was all right, that he was employed there. We left Oswald there, and the supervisor showed me the way upstairs. We couldn't get anyone to send the freight elevator down. In giving the place a quick check, I found nothing that seemed out of the ordinary, so I started back to see what had happened. Not knowing for sure what had happened, I was limited in what I could legally do......"

http://www.jfk-online.com/bowles6.html

Hello Ray

Thank you for posting this interview. Oddly enough, this is the only place I have ever seen Baker actually say the pigeons flew up from the roof of the TSBD. In his WC testimony, he makes a vague reference about the pigeons:

"Mr. BELIN - All right. When you heard the first shot or the first noise, what did you do and what did you see?

Mr. BAKER - Well, to me, it sounded high and I immediately kind of looked up, and I had a feeling that it came from the building, either right in front of me or of the one across to the right of it.

Mr. BELIN - What would the building right in front of you be?

Mr. BAKER - It would be this Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN - That would be the building located on what corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. BAKER - That would be the northwest corner.

Mr. BELIN - All right. And you thought it was either from that building or the building located where?

Mr. BAKER - On the northeast corner.

Mr. BELIN - All right. Did you see or hear or do anything else after you heard the first noise?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. As I was looking up, all these pigeons began to fly up to the top of the buildings here and I saw those come up and start flying around.

Mr. BELIN - From what building, if you know, do you think those pigeons came from?

Mr. BAKER - I wasn't sure, but I am pretty sure they came from the building right on the northwest corner."

Now, towards the end of his testimony, he describes being on the roof of the TSBD and almost tells the WC that the pigeons were flushed from the roof of the TSBD.

"Mr. BELIN - On the top of the School Book Depository Building on Exhibit 362. All right. Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER - Then I came back down and I went and checked this building right here. It is an old deserted room there of some type.

Mr. BELIN - Some kind of a shack on the northeast corner of the building?

Mr. BAKER - That is right, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Out there. What did you see when you saw that shack?

Mr. BAKER - As I approached it, and looked under it, there wasn't anything under it, and you could tell that pigeons had been roosting there for sometime.

Mr. BELIN - All right. There were indications that pigeons had been roosting there?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER - No indications that anyone would be around there.

Mr. BELIN - Did you see any pigeons there as you approached it?

Mr. BAKER - No, sir. They had all--at the time I kind of glanced and they were still flying around in the sky up there.

Mr. BELIN - What did you do?

SENATOR COOPER - You referred to pigeons, did you see some pigeon droppings?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.

SENATOR COOPER - Had they been disturbed in any way?

Mr. BAKER - No, sir."

"No, sir. They had all...." Had all what? Been flushed off of the roof by the sound of a gunshot?

Finally, we come to the interview you gave us.

"A little past half way down Houston (between Main and Elm), I heard the first shot. I could tell it came from somewhere in front of me, and high. As I looked up I noticed all the pigeons flushed off the top of the building on the corner ahead of me."

Finally, Baker tells us where the pigeons were at the time of the first shot. It may seem a bit strange that I am so interested in a flock of pigeons being flushed off the roof of the TSBD but, think about how unlikely this is. The 6th floor window was two storeys down from the roof, and there was a five foot parapet around the perimeter of the roof. If the pigeons were actually on the roof, and not the parapet, would they not be somewhat sheltered from the blast of a rifle pointed away from the TSBD?

What is far more probable, is a shot from the Dal-Tex Building pointed down Elm St. The pigeons on the roof would then be inside the cone of influence created by the muzzle blast of the rifle and would indeed have been flushed off the roof.