Robert Prudhomme
-
Posts
4,105 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Events
Store
Posts posted by Robert Prudhomme
-
-
I love these scenarios being kicked around here
Lots of knowledgeable creative thinking
From what I see
There were no shots ever fired
From the TSBD
And no need for conspirators to hang around
Except to keep an eye on the movements
Of Prayer Man
To see how they could pin another murder
On him.
But seemingly everyone here agrees
He was involved in a conspiracy
To frame himself.
Someone is missing something....
Hello Raymond
I agree with you in that there may very well have been no shots fired from the TSBD, and Oswald may also have been a totally innocent man. This would, however, require false evidence to be supplied by several people in the TSBD, especially those three employees on the 5th floor.
In the Darnell film, we also see two men (one in a Stetson) standing in front of the TSBD and looking up towards its upper floors. Many people take this as proof of shots being fired from the SN on the 6th floor but, I feel there may be another explanation.
Many witnesses described the first shot as sounding more like a firecracker than a rifle shot and there could be a good reason for this. There may have been a shooter high up on the Dal-Tex Building firing a rifle fitted with a suppressor. Contrary to popular belief, suppressed rifles firing bullets travelling at supersonic velocities are not totally silenced. While the muzzle blast is silenced, the bullet is still travelling faster than the speed of sound and, like a jet going over Mach I, will break the sound barrier; making a definite "crack" to anyone standing in the vicinity.
The purpose of suppressing a high powered rifle is not to totally eliminate sound (unless, of course, you are shooting at a target a few hundred yards away and the bullet drops to subsonic velocities before arriving at its target) but to hide the location of the shooter.
It may have worked very well. The two men on the sidewalk may have heard the supersonic crack of the bullet as it travelled over their heads from the Dal-Tex Building and been fooled into thinking the shots originated from the TSBD.
Also, there are the pigeons, but we can discuss them in the next post.
-
Distinct thoughts--but run-on lines:
- Claims 2nd Floor coke
- When off[icer] came in to 1st fl[oor] [was having] lunch out with with Bill Shelley [and others] in front
In their joint interrogation report, written while Oswald was still alive, Bookhout and Hosty mentioned Oswald's non-toxic trip upstairs for the coke but completely fudged the issue of his claimed whereabouts at the time of the shooting and the officer's dash up the front steps and into the first floor:
Oswald stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon and he claimed he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunchroom; however he went to the second floor where the Coca-Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca-Cola for his lunch. Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed this building.
As this report was being put together by the two agents, Bookhout was looking at his notes which contained (we now know, thanks to Fritz's copy) explicit mention of an officer coming in. Yet that massively important detail is not even mentioned in the account of the lunchroom visit. Why? Because the officer coming in had nothing to do with the lunchroom visit. It had however everything to do with Oswald's alibi. And there was simply no way any of that was ever going into an official interrogation report.
James Hosty in the months and years ahead would never offer any corroboration for Bookhout’s solo report claim that Oswald talked about such an incident in the lunchroom. It is not in Hosty’s own contemporaneous interrogation notes. It is not in his Warren Commission testimony. It is not in his 1996 book Assignment: Oswald.
**
After Oswald's death, and without input or corroboration from Hosty, Bookhout took this section of his notes--
--and gave it a preposterous gloss that had the double merit of posthumously 'confirming' the lunchroom incident Roy Truly was telling people about and making Oswald sound like a very bad xxxx:
Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca-cola form the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. Mr. Truly was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. Oswald stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly [...]
Hello Sean
I have often wondered if there is not a special section of Hell reserved for men such as J. Edgar Hoover, who would have been the driving force behind such creative FBI evidence as Bookhout's report above.
-
I thought that the increasment of the images from Robin does help to exclude the presence of Oswald idea
but the opposite is the case.
The new Darnell frames shows somebody in the doorway who really can be Oswald.
Without the frames i would be silent. But now...........
The more i look at it, the more Oswald.
Martin
Hi Martin,
It's him alright.
Important to zoom out again and reiterate that the shape of Oswald's torso is distorted here because of the blocking presence of a woman on the steps in front of him.
If one starts with this woman's foot and lower leg, one can work one's way up to where her head is and appreciate the enlarging effect she is having on Oswald's frame (oh dear, that could have been phrased better...):
What's going to happen next is that the WC defender kooks will attempt to stave off a collective nervous breakdown by channelling the spirit of Ralph Cinque and denying that this is the man it so very obviously looks like. The lapel is wrong! The hands are too big!! He has breasts!!!
Dave Reitzes may even need to revert to the two Oswalds theory to get out of this one.
Did Oswald have a twin brother?
-
Many pages back in this thread it was established beyond doubt that the only TSBD employee Prayer Man could conceivably be is Lee Oswald.
All other candidates--Frazier, Lovelady, Molina, Otis Williams, Bill Shelley--were definitively ruled out.
We all remember how quickly poor David von Pein found other things to do once he realised his wiggle room on this issue was precisely zilch.
Each improvement in Darnell image quality has only made the case for this being Oswald more and more compelling.
Now let's not kid ourselves here as to the magnitude of what has just happened.
If a bona fide image even a quarter as clear as this one had emerged in recent days of a man at the SN window at assassination time, this would have been hailed by WC defenders as the final nail in the kook coffin.
Well, things have not turned out quite that way, have they?
It seems the WC defenders are left with one pitiful option if they are to avoid the checkmate reality that faces them:
resort for dear life to the argument from incredulity and insist that Prayer Man just has to be someone other than Oswald.
The argument from incredulity will run as follows:
It's just plum ridiculous to claim that Oswald could have been on those steps for the motorcade and the aftermath without being noticed by any of his co-workers. Sheesh.
This argument, being silly, is easily disposed of.
Prayer Man is a fact.
He was there.
His presence there is not however recalled by a single witness in on-the-record statements or sworn testimony.
And yet--did I mention this?--he is a fact.
He was there.
The lack of attestation as to his presence puts not a dent, not even a scratch, in the integrity of that fact.
Prayer Man was there.
To claim that Prayer Man is not Oswald is to claim that the presence of Oswald--a quiet and unexceptional worker in the building-- would have been more liable to notice up there at the entrance amongst the other TSBD folk than the presence of a total stranger-- someone who didn't work in that building, had no business being there amongst the TSBD folk, would have had to walk up those steps from the street in order to end up in the Prayer Man position.
And to claim that is to take terminal recourse to kook logic.
Which, of course, is what the kook WC defenders will now do.
After that? Well, one can only look forward to Dave Perry's next time trial on Discovery Channel where Usain Bolt will demonstrate that Oswald could have fired off all three rounds from the SN window and still have made it comfortably down in time to catch the motorcade from the front entrance.
Equally stimulating will be Max Holland's National Geographic spot showing that Prayer Man's posture is not at all inconsistent with the posture of a man firing a rifle at traffic poles and street signs, and at an angle not entirely inconsistent with a deflection-to-the-Presidential-limousine scenario.
Meanwhile the rest of us can be getting on with the job at hand: evidence-based research.
Well said, Sean.
-
While we are on the topic of Buell Wesley Frazier, he mentions, in his WC testimony, a "heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something".
From his WC testimony:
"Mr. FRAZIER - I stayed around there pretty close to Mr. Shelley and this boy Billy Lovelady and just standing there, people talking and just talking about how pretty a day it turned out to be, because I told you earlier it was an old cloudy and misty day and then it didn't look like it was going to be a pretty day at all.
Mr. BALL - And it turned out to be a good day?
Mr. FRAZIER - Pretty sunshiny day.
Mr. BALL - Warm?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; it was pretty warm.
Mr. BALL - Then let's see, there was Billy Lovelady and you were there.
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - Anybody else you can remember?
Mr. FRAZIER - There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name.
Mr. BALL - Were you near the steps?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I was, I was standing about, I believe, one step down from the top there.
Mr. BALL - One step down from the top of the steps?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; standing there by the rail.
Mr. BALL - By steps we are talking about the steps of the entrance to the Building?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir."Has this woman ever been identified and do we know where she is outside the TSBD at the time of the assassination?
-
Hello Sean
I, too, find it odd that Dougherty would only hear one shot while on the 5th floor. If all three shots came from above him (albeit on the far kitty corner of the TSBD), one would think they would be equally audible.
Is the connection with Dougherty using the stairs to descend to the 1st floor related to the fact Dougherty only testified to hearing a single shot?
Robert,
Here's how I see it. If Jack were inventing the trip up to the fifth floor, why on earth would he be telling us he heard just one shot --and then going on to point up the strangeness of this fact by telling us that Eddie Piper told him he had heard three shots? Surely if he were inventing he would make sure to harmonise the number of shots he heard with the number of shots he subsequently learned there had been?
No, I'm suggesting we take Dougherty's first-day affidavit statement at face value and see where its contents lead us.
**
Now how could a man be at the rear of the fifth floor, some ten feet west of the west freight elevator, and only hear one shot?
Our options are pretty limited. Tell me if I've missed any:
- There was only one shot fired from the sixth floor.
- Due to adjustments in the position of the rifle at the window, only the first shot boomed loudly within the building.
- Jack's reaction to the first shot was to stick his head deep inside a box full of cotton wool, plug his fingers in his ears or do something to make it possible for a man on the fifth floor to stop hearing loud noises.
- Jack's reaction to the first shot was to make a terrified dash to the noisy, wooden-planked and enclosed rear stairway and run downstairs for his life.
Re. #1: I know this view has some adherents, but I'm not one of them. Bonnie Ray Williams's earliest statements speak of two shots sounding as if they came from just over him.
Re. #2: There may have been some variation in the inside-the-room boom levels, but I find it very hard to believe that Jack could have remained standing there on the fifth floor after the first shot and heard nothing else by way of bang, pop, what have you.
Re. #3: Non-starter.
Re. #4: Jack's description of his location some ten feet west of the west elevator is also a description of his location very near the down stairs.
If there was one place in his vicinity where the noise of a subsequent shot or shots might have failed to reach his ears, it was the very noisy stairwell down which a man (he himself) was stomping.
But why would Jack react so quickly to that first shot?
Because he knew it was a rifle shot.
For, just prior to this, he had had the misfortune of wandering up to the sixth floor to get a bird's eye view of the motorcade only to see several strangers up there, including at least one man holding a rifle.
That's why, the instant he heard the loud bang upstairs while down on the fifth floor, he knew exactly what it was.
And ran.
Hello Sean
I see exactly what you mean now. Yes, it is possible he returned to work early enough on the 6th floor to stumble upon the proceedings in the Sniper's Nest. And he may have just had time to descend to the 5th floor when the first shot went off. He certainly could not have spent much time on the 5th floor, or, no doubt, he would have been spotted by Williams, Norman and Jarman.
Yes, when you explain it like this, it makes perfect sense. He hears the first shot, covers the ten feet to the stairwell and is heading downstairs, making a great deal of noise, before the second shot is fired, which, of course, he does not hear.
Brilliant bit of deduction, Sean.
-
Yea, I neither take credit for being the first to call attention to this photo frame or think any forum rules were broken, as ridicule and sarcasm are valid forms of critique, if used correctly. I didn't even recognize it as a backhand slap at Duncan and his forum.
If they have discussed this issue over there, the direct links to the subject should be made, so we don't have to duplicate the research, but i couldn't find it on the board on the link previously presented.
BKBill and Raymond,
A moderator removed the offending posted comment this morning where Prudenhomme openly admitted that he posted that I allow paid LN's to rule the other forum.
Anyway, enough of that, this issue is far more important.
Here is a direct link to a thread containing static images and moving Gifs ot the man and the area in question.
It's a long thread with many interesting diversions and fantastic graphical analysis by some of the most talented and dedicated photo analysis people in the JFK community.
Here is one example of the standard of stabilized Gif construction which is a major feature at my forum.
This one shows clearly the man in question, and Baker running towards the entrance.
Credit Gerda Dunckel
Enjoy the thread - Link Below
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,6724.0.html
Hello Duncan
I went to the link you posted to your forum, the JFKAssassinationForum.com. The thread the link connected to there had twenty-four pages of posts and discussed many people in front of the TSBD at the time of the assassination. However, only ONE reference is made to Prayer Man. This is in a post on page twenty-two by Gerda Dunckel. She refers to our man as "Prayer Man" and inquires as to who this person may be. Strangely, no one responds to her question.
Is this what you meant by the following, "Finally, this man has been discussed many many times at http://www.jfkassass.../board,2.0.html and many enhancements have been made there and are still available for viewing." I would hardly call one poster inquiring about PM's identity, and no one answering, to be "discussed many many times".
Perhaps you posted a link to the wrong thread, and there are many many other threads dealing with PM on your forum, hmm? Would you be so kind as to link us to one of these threads? I am especially interested in seeing the "many enhancements" that "have been made there and are still available for viewing".
Cheers
-
quote:
Buell Wesley Frazier knew--knows--Lee is innocent.
Sean
Are you saying that there was a GIANT conspiracy of silence, from every TSBD employee seen in this frame
that they were NEVER mention the fact that Oswald was actually standing in the Doorway entrance, as Baker entered the building. ?
Hello Robin
It does seem rather odd, though, that not only do none of the TSBD employees on those steps recall if PM was a TSBD employee, as well, it is as if PM was never there at all.
If that is Frazier circled in the photo at the top of the steps, could we not just ask him who the person was in the corner?
Perhaps we could start a fresh rumour holding that overzealous CT's, in their efforts to grant Oswald an alibi, altered the Darnell film by inserting the image of PM onto the TSBD steps. Bit of a reversal, n'est-ce pas?
-
Here it is, Robert:
Interesting, Sean. I'm at a bit of a loss to make the connection, although it is still early here, and I am on my first cup of coffee.
Hello Sean
I, too, find it odd that Dougherty would only hear one shot while on the 5th floor. If all three shots came from above him (albeit on the far kitty corner of the TSBD), one would think they would be equally audible.
Is the connection with Dougherty using the stairs to descend to the 1st floor related to the fact Dougherty only testified to hearing a single shot?
-
Thanks for the Comments J. Raymond
Sean
Correct me if i am wrong, but i don't ever recall seeing Oswald in a shirt with his sleeves " Rolled Up " ?
Excellent point.
-
I would say now, that it most probably is a man, as to it being Oswald, that is a different matter, and i will refer judgement on that issue until a later date
What a shame they didn't have the high tech digital cameras that are available nowadays back in 1963. We could have enlarged this photo and counted the nose hairs on PM, if we so desired.
As it is, I peer at these grainy photos until my eyes are red and sore, and I am still none the wiser.
-
Hello Robin
Once again, I have studied the larger frames and found nothing indicating this person to be a woman. Is it something very obvious? Please share with us why you feel Prayer Man may be a woman.
-
Hello Pat
I do not have any experience with "exploding bullets", and I am not sure what would even qualify a rifle bullet to be in this category. I do, however, have a great deal of experience with hunting deer with ammunition loaded with "soft tipped" hunting ammunition.
I also have some experience hunting deer with "hollow point" ammunition. I handload my own rifle cartridges, and, for a time, I experimented with handloading 110 grain .30 calibre hollow point bullets into cartridges for a .308 deer rifle.
I should point out that I and most of the people who live up here are strictly meat hunters, and we always attempt to maximize the amount of meat we can recover from a kill. For some, this will mean a carefully placed lung shot. This will work, but I like eating the heart of the deer, and there is a good chance the bullet will hit it and spoil it. The rest of us go strictly for head shots which, of course, requires more concentration while shooting and the grace to pass up a shot if there is a possibility of missing.
I chose the hollow point bullets because I wanted the slug to achieve maximum expansion once it entered the deer's skull and, thereby, maximum damage. Well, they did everything I wanted them to do. Not a single deer that I shot in the head with a hollow point bullet ever got back on its feet. However, the results were so obscene that, out of respect for the deer, I eventually quit using them.
Judging from the damage done to JFK's head, I do not believe any kind of exploding bullet was used in the assassination and I believe a hollow point rifle bullet could easily have accounted for his head wounds. This, of course, depends on which school of thought one subscribes to regarding JFK's head wounds. I believe Tom Robinson was very thorough in tracking down these wounds and, by his count, there appears to be one large exit wound in the right rear, one small 1/4" entrance wound in the right temple, and, as pointed out by Mr. Robinson, severe breakage of most of the bones in JFK's face. I find it a little disturbing that Mr. Robinson, supposedly an experienced mortician, could be so easily convinced that a large gaping wound the size of an orange could be an entrance wound and that a neat little quarter inch wound in the temple (gee what a coincidence, the same diameter as a 6.5 calibre rifle bullet!) could be an exit wound from a piece of broken up bullet. In all my experience hunting, I have NEVER seen an entrance wound of this nature, or an exit wound smaller than the entrance wound.
If the only damage done was a small entrance wound in the temple and a large exit wound in the rear, I would say the work was done by a hollow point. I have seen this many times hunting deer. The hollow point will make an entry wound no bigger than a FMJ or soft-tipped bullet, yet it will exit (or not exit, depending on how much it breaks up) with a large gaping wound on the other side; and NOT always perfectly lined up with the trajectory of the bullet. Remember, it is not the bullet itself that makes a 3-4 inch exit wound but, rather, the pressure wave this rapidly expanding bullet creates in front of it.
The damage to the facial bones puzzles me, though, and may be the one thing supporting your claim of an exploding bullet. It may also point to a second bullet that entered the rear of JFK's head within a fraction of a second of the one that entered his temple. There seems to be other evidence that supports this theory.
-
Darnell Zip file (110=Frames ) 5.9MB
Taken from "JFK The movie (Blu-Ray) version"
Very nice slide show, Robin. I've studied it, or at least the portions with Prayer Man in them, for half an hour now, looking for clues that PM may be a woman. Could you point out to me what you found in these frames that raised this possibility? Thanks.
-
Lee
Florers arrest is on film if we can Id the cop/sheriff with him (white hat)
I think it's the cooper film.Braden in his alibi described the rifle being taken from
The TSBD as the way they were holding it was not normal but he describes
The rope/string sling not the leather strap like the Nara model .
Counsel tries to help him but he must have seen the backyard Carcano
As this has a rope sling?, then he cannot lie round the fact the HSCA ignored it.
Sean
Both Braden and Florer gave the same alibi but it was reported by lift operater (William Sharper interviewed by Warren De Breuys)as being a stranger in the building(Dal-Tex)
And "in the building at the time" both Braden And Florer were on the third floor but where the reports are vague.
Lummie Lewis was given Florer to take to DPD along with the lady that Craig
Stopped in the TSBD car park she could be the 40 yr old sales rep .
It's obvious more time elapsed than has been reported as Truly also phoned his wife before the Baker/stairs trip.
I am wondering if Oswald was in the small vestibule on the first floor
When asked for a phone by the ID wielding person and that's how his name
And wrong address were on Revills list at the top and he was simply let go then?.
Ian
Hello Ian
Are you saying that Truly telephoned his wife before he and Baker made their trip upstairs? Would you please direct me to the source of this information? Thanks.
I have read Truly's testimony to the WC several times, and can find no reference by him to a phone call to his wife prior to the Truly/Baker ascent to the roof.
-
Sean
you may need to rename " Prayer man "
" Prayer woman "
i have some new Darnell frames from " JFK the movie " Blu Ray
We would love to see these frames, Robin.
-
Here it is, Robert:
Interesting, Sean. I'm at a bit of a loss to make the connection, although it is still early here, and I am on my first cup of coffee.
-
Robert,
Dougherty's WC testimony is a mess, but his basic story does have one very important thing going for it: it was the story he told consistently from the very start.
Here's his 11/22 affidavit, given within two hours of the assassination (click to enlarge):
And here's his FBI interview from the same day:
I believe Jack Dougherty
- is telling the truth in these first-day statements
- is wholly innocent of any involvement in the assassination
- has genuine cognitive problems, as evidenced not only in the statements which Roy Truly and Jack's own father will make on that score but also in his peculiar response pattern during his WC appearance.
Can you spot the clue?
Hmmm...I've read both statements a few times but, the clue eludes me. Please elaborate.
-
That would seem to make sense.
-
Robert,
I would assume the shooter(s) waited until the cables started moving again on the west elevator (i.e. signifying that it was coming up) before making their own descent. If this all seems a little improvised on their part--well, it was. Baker's entry into the building was remarkably quick.
Let's talk about Jack!
What, in the portions of WC testimony you've quoted above, doesn't add up?
(Aha! he says, FINALLY we get to Mr. Dougherty!
)Well, first off, it appears, from Mr. Dougherty's testimony, that he went by the west elevator to the 6th floor within five minutes of the assassination, and saw no one on that floor. He then took that west elevator to the 5th floor, and, again, saw no one.
Most significant, though, is his testimony placing him within ten feet of the west elevator entrance at the time he heard the lone shot he heard. He does not claim to continue working but, rather, claims to have come down to the 1st floor on the west elevator.
All things considered, unless Dougherty loitered on the 5th floor for a few minutes before descending, and did not hear Truly calling up the shaft for the elevator, the west elevator should have been waiting on the 1st floor when Truly and Baker arrived.
When Baker and Truly arrive on the 5th floor, via the NW stairwell, on there way to the 7th floor, they discover the east elevator waiting for them, but not the west elevator. Truly claims, in his testimony, he did not believe he saw the west elevator on the 6th or 7th floor, indicating the west elevator had descended to a lower floor from where he originally saw it on the 5th floor.
It would be very easy to imagine that Dougherty a) did not hear Truly call for the elevator and b ) loitered long enough on the 5th floor that he was descending on the west elevator as Truly/Baker were ascending the stairs to the 5th floor. However, anyone making this assumption is required to read this excerpt from Roy Truly's WC testimony:
"Mr. BELIN. I believe you said when you first saw the elevators, you thought they were both on the same floor, the fifth floor.
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then how do you explain that when you got to the fifth floor, one of the elevators was not there?
Mr. TRULY. I don't know, sir. I think one of my boys was getting stock off the fifth floor on the back side, and probably moved the elevator at the time somewheres between the time we were running upstairs. And I would not have remembered that. I mean I wouldn't have really heard that, with the commotion we were making running up the enclosed stairwell.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone on the fifth floor?
Mr. TRULY. Yes. When coming down I am sure I saw Jack Dougherty getting some books off the fifth floor.
Now, this is so dim in my mind that I could be making a mistake.
But I believe that he was getting some stock, that he had already gone back to work, and that he was getting some stock off the fifth floor.
Mr. BELIN. You really don't know who was operating the elevator, then, is that correct?
Mr. TRULY. That is correct.
Mr. BELIN. What is your best guess?
Mr. TRULY. My best guess is that Jack Dougherty was."
The real problem here, aside from Truly's and Dougherty's testimonies contradicting each others, is how Dougherty, even if he was mistaken about the time and ascended to the 5th floor AFTER Truly/Baker, was able to bring the west elevator down from the 5th floor, in order to take it up to the 6th floor. He would have encountered the same problem Truly did, namely, the gate being open on the elevator on the 5th floor, preventing the elevator being summoned to the 1st floor. This, of course, makes Truly's "best guess" that Dougherty was the operator of the west elevator nonsensical.
P.S. The one maddening thing about Mr. Dougherty's testimony is that, while he tells the WC that he descended from the 5th floor via the west elevator following the shooting, he does not say (nor does Mr. Ball pursue the point) whether the west elevator car stayed on the 5th floor, following Dougherty's descent from the 6th floor, or if Dougherty had to summon the west elevator car from the 1st floor (or some lower floor) to allow him to continue his trip to the 1st floor.
-
Hello Sean
I think I have this figured out now. The back wall of the east elevator would have blocked the view, into the east elevator, of anyone on the stair landings or in the west elevator.
From what I can gather, I believe the two elevators shared a common shaft and, with both elevators on upper floors, it was possible to look up from the east or west elevator entrances and see the bottoms of both elevator cars. Is this true?
Correct on all counts, Robert.
So, if the back wall of the east elevator was solid metal, it may be safe to assume the same was true of the back wall of the west elevator.
If a person was travelling down from the upper floors in the west elevator, could a person be travelling down from the upper floors in the east elevator at the same time, and the person in the west elevator might be unaware of the movement of the east elevator? And, with entrances facing away from each other, could that person exit the east elevator (and the building) without the person exiting the west elevator seeing him? For that matter, people ascending (or descending) the NW stairs might not have a very good view of the east elevator, and only when they were on the landing between stairwells.
When do we get to Mr. Dougherty? he says with bated breath.
Exactly, Robert, and that's how I believe the shooter(s) escaped--they simply took the east elevator down while Truly and Baker were taking the west elevator up.
This explains why Vicki Adams and Sandra Styles saw or heard no-one -- not Baker or Truly, not a stranger or stranger-- going up or coming down the stairs.
It was all so simple--and the 'investigating' authorities knew it.
Which is why Truly was made to tell a wholly fictitious story of his and the officer's having gotten on the east elevator on the fifth floor.
Hello Sean
That makes a lot more sense. My linear thinking had both elevators coming down at the same time but, as you point out, the sound of Baker and Truly ascending in the west elevator would mask the sound of escaping shooters descending in the east elevator. However, is it possible both elevators were on upper floors (ie. 5th floor) and, when Baker and Truly summoned the west elevator to come down, it afforded the shooters an opportunity to bring the east elevator down? I forget the difference in the two elevators but, I seem to recall one being easier to summon than the other. Could the shooters have waited above for the west elevator to be called down and begun their descent as soon as it began descending?
I noticed, in a few of your last posts, you dangled Jack Dougherty in front of us. I find his testimony very interesting, and it has the capacity to seriously contradict the testimony of Baker and Truly regarding the location of the west elevator car following the assassination.
From the WC testimony of Jack Edwin Dougherty, April 8, 1964:
"Mr. BALL - When you talked on the day this accident happened, on the 22d of November 1963, in a statement made to the Federal Bureau of Investigation and, Mr. Dougherty, you told them you went down to the first floor to eat your lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - That's right.
Mr. BALL - And that you went back to work?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - And you told him on the 19th day of December, Mr. Johnson, that you went back to work on the sixth floor, and as soon as you arrived on the sixth floor, you went down to the fifth floor to get some stock?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir; that's right.
Mr. BALL - And while you were on the fifth floor, you heard a loud noise?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - That's right---it sounded like a car backfiring.
Mr. BALL - And did you hear more than one loud explosion or noise?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No; that was the only one I heard.
Mr. BALL - You only heard one?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And where did it sound like it came from?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - It sounded like it came from overhead somewhere.
Mr. BALL - From overhead?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - How did you get to the fifth floor?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Elevator.
Mr. BALL - You were on the fifth floor when you heard this, were you?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Which elevator did you take?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, you see, there's one on this side and one on this side the one on this side is the one I took.
Mr. BALL - Well, now, "The one on this side and the one on this side," doesn't mean much when it's written down.
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I know it.
Mr. BALL - Can you tell me whether it was the east side or the west side elevator?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - East side.
Mr. BALL - Is it the one that you punch a button on?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Or the one that you use a control on?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - It's the one you push a button on.
Mr. BALL - The one you push a button on?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - I believe that is the west side, isn't it?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, I believe it is.
Mr. BALL - Now, that's the one you took up?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Where did you take that---to what floor?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I took it up to the sixth floor."
Further WC testimony from J. Dougherty on the same day:
"Mr. BALL - Tell me this---when you heard that explosion or whatever it was--- that loud noise, where were you on the fifth floor-tell me exactly where you were?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I was about 10 feet from the west elevator---the west side of the elevator.
Mr. BALL - That's the elevator that uses the push button; is that right?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And what were you doing?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I was getting some stock.
Mr. BALL - And what did you do then?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I came on back downstairs.
Mr. BALL - How did you come downstairs?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I used that push button elevator on the west side.
Mr. BALL - Did you hear Mr. Truly yell anything up the elevator shaft?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I didn't hear anybody yell."
Something does not seem to add up here.
-
Hello Sean
I think I have this figured out now. The back wall of the east elevator would have blocked the view, into the east elevator, of anyone on the stair landings or in the west elevator.
From what I can gather, I believe the two elevators shared a common shaft and, with both elevators on upper floors, it was possible to look up from the east or west elevator entrances and see the bottoms of both elevator cars. Is this true?
Correct on all counts, Robert.
So, if the back wall of the east elevator was solid metal, it may be safe to assume the same was true of the back wall of the west elevator.
If a person was travelling down from the upper floors in the west elevator, could a person be travelling down from the upper floors in the east elevator at the same time, and the person in the west elevator might be unaware of the movement of the east elevator? And, with entrances facing away from each other, could that person exit the east elevator (and the building) without the person exiting the west elevator seeing him? For that matter, people ascending (or descending) the NW stairs might not have a very good view of the east elevator, and only when they were on the landing between stairwells.
When do we get to Mr. Dougherty? he says with bated breath.
-
Hello Sean
Although most people are likely already aware of this fact, I just learned, on another thread, that the east and west elevators were back to back, with the west elevator entrance facing the stairs in the NW corner of the building, and the east elevator entrance facing the east side of the building.
While it is also clear that the slats on the front of the elevators allowed a person to see out of (or into) the elevator car, was it also possible to see out the back wall of these elevators; in particular, the west elevator?
Hi Robert,
Not sure about the west elevator, but Roy Truly does mention in his WC testimony that the back wall of the east elevator was solid metal and afforded no view.
Hello Sean
I think I have this figured out now. The back wall of the east elevator would have blocked the view, into the east elevator, of anyone on the stair landings or in the west elevator.
From what I can gather, I believe the two elevators shared a common shaft and, with both elevators on upper floors, it was possible to look up from the east or west elevator entrances and see the bottoms of both elevator cars. Is this true?
-
Hello Sean
Although most people are likely already aware of this fact, I just learned, on another thread, that the east and west elevators were back to back, with the west elevator entrance facing the stairs in the NW corner of the building, and the east elevator entrance facing the east side of the building.
While it is also clear that the slats on the front of the elevators allowed a person to see out of (or into) the elevator car, was it also possible to see out the back wall of these elevators; in particular, the west elevator?
The "Deputy Sheriffs" Mooney met on the Fourth Floor
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
Hello Richard
I agree with your views on Lee completely, and this is what makes this case such a fascinating enigma.
Fifty years from now, researchers will still likely be asking, who the hell was Lee Harvey Oswald, anyways?