Robert Prudhomme

I would like to ask for assistance on a piece of research I’ve been working on for some time. It is carried out far from the internet with a scientist who is a friend of mine. He is working on a new book on the case. I don’t want to mention his name because I don’t have his permission to do so. Let me say that he is a true scientist and a very bright historical researcher. The point at issue concerns the provenance of CE 543.

The three cartridge cases found near the 6th floor sniper’s next ended up with the designations CE 543, CE 544, CE 545. CE 543 was unusual because it had indications that it had been cycled through a Carcano (not necessarily Oswald’s) several times. For example, it had a mark from the magazine follower that could not have been incurred on November 22nd since a live round was found in the chamber of the weapon. Most importantly, it has a dent in the lip that makes it impossible to have contained a projectile in its present form. The dent was studied by experts from the House Select Committee who claimed to have produced a similar dent by working the action on Oswald’s weapon very fast. However, the dent so produced does not replicate in many ways the dent on CE 543. Could the dent have been incurred as the House Committee believes during the ejection process? Maybe. At least one researcher in the United States, says he has produced a similar dent with a Carcano and 6.5 mm ammunition by cycling the weapon very fast. According to this individual, the cartridge case spins back after being ejected and hits the metal top of the Carcano. Another individual in England, has replicated the dent by dry-firing cartridge cases in the Carcano. Other indications supplied by Director Hoover in a letter make me suspect that the true cause of the dent was the dry-firing of the cartridge case in a Carcano prior to November 22nd. If this is the case, then CE 543 was never fired on November 22nd but dropped at the scene. If this could be proved, the importance is obvious.

My friend, the scientist, has opined that the dent may have been caused by the Dallas police while the rifle and CE 543 were in their possession. If some Dallas policeman inserted CE 543 into the Carcano and dry-fired it, this would violate every protocol known to the police about the protection and sanctity of evidence. It would, in fact, be a crime. And why would this be done? The live round in the chamber of the weapon showed conclusively what ammunition the rifle fired. I have argued this with my friend but he is still unconvinced.

What do we know of the provenance of CE 543?

We know that two cartridge cases and the live round were picked up from the Dallas Police on the evening of November 22nd and flown to Washington for examination in the FBI Crime Lab. The third cartridge case was picked up from the Dallas police on November 27th by the FBI. The three cartridge cases were given FBI numbers of C6, C7, C38. CE 543 had the earlier FBI number of C7.

In Six Seconds in Dallas, I argued that CE-543 had been retained by the Dallas police and only turned over to the FBI on November 27th. I argued for this on the basis of some confusing testimony by Lt. Doughty concerning the cartridge cases. It seems to me now that I was wrong... that CE 543 was turned over to the FBI on the evening of November 22nd. First, it only seems natural that the first two cartridge cases to reach the FBI lab would bear the numbers C6 and C7 while the third case (that arrived days later) would bear the FBI number C38. Secondly, someone sent me FBI 302s from the time Six Seconds was published. One contained a long analysis and criticism of Six Seconds that asserted that CE 543 was picked up from the Dallas police on the evening of November 22nd.

So which was it? Did CE 543 leave the custody of the Dallas police on the evening of November 22nd or several days later? The obvious way to find out would be to look at Robert Frazier’s lab notes concerning evidence when it arrived at the FBI Lab. I know John Hunt has done some good work in this area. Just a day or so ago, Gary Murr was able to give a very full answer to a question asked by David Healy. He stated on the thread “Z-frame numbering and Gary Murr” on 3/26/09 at 9:08 PM:

“Unfortunately, this documentation is currently only available if one travels to NARA II in College Park, Maryland, the reason being that it is from one of the massive bulky lab files generated by that division of the FBI in conjunction with their examination of all evidence given to them that related to the assassination event. Shaneyfelt and others in the FBI lab, in particular fellow agent Robert Frazier, constructed numerous files of worknotes when they were examining evidence and this surviving documentation is both historically important, relevant, and useful in trying to ascertain a wide variety of matters pertaining to the issues of evidence and provenance.“

Gary Murr’s report would confirm that the FBI Lab made complete notes on each bit of evidence when it arrived at the lab. Certainly, the arrival date of C7 and its condition (dented lip and all) should appear in these noted. Would Gary Murr or anyone else who has interest or knowledge about this please reply? This seems to me to be a question that can be answered and when answered will gain a place in a wider argument. Thank you.

Josiah Thompson

Without going into naming names, the one person of whom I am aware that claims to have created a similar dent through the described "ejection process", was long ago informed by myself of the extreme unliklihood that the dent in the cartridge casing lip occurred in this manner.

Even though he claims to have duplicated this, I have yet to see any indication of this actually being feasible and have never managed such an event.

To a relatively high degree of probability, the "dent" as well as the additional scrape marks along the cartridge case which are claimed to have been created by the "follower", are in fact the result of a Short Stroke.

In a Short Stroke, the bolt is not brought back sufficiently for the ejector release to activate, and the empty casing is not ejectecd, and thus when one goes forward with the bolt, they are in fact driving the empty casing forward towards the chamber again.

However, the bullet nose of the next round in the magazine housing has risen, and thus the empty casing is actually driven forward over the casing rim of the next live round below it which has risen at a slight angle. This action can force the empty casing to incur additional scrape marks from the casing rim below it.

This action causes the empty casing to literally "scrape" over the casing of the live round below it, giving it scrape marks somewhat similar to that created by the follower, and when the forward nose of the casing comes to the beginning of the chamber area, it encounters the bullet nose of the live round below it.

Which, in virtually every single instance, will dent the lip of the empty casing, provided that the bolt is actually operated with a rapid as well as sufficient force.

Which, by the way, may have some bearing on exactly why there was some 5.6 to 5.9 seconds delay between the first shot and the second shot.

Had the FBI/aka Robert Frazier given evidence of a "Short Stroke" in the shooting sequence, then most likely there is absolutely no "shooter" who would have considered that three shots were made within the WC's fairy tale less than 6-second shooting scenario.

Hope that helps some.

Tom

Nice try, but, utter nonsense as usual, Tom.

As the bolt is drawn back, holding the rim of the spent shell in the bullet extractor, the face of the bolt is actually riding on the next live cartridge in the magazine below. The face of the bolt is much greater in diameter than the rim of the spent cartridge. The bolt keeps the next live cartridge in place in the magazine and does not allow it to rise up UNTIL the bolt is fully retracted. The spent cartridge will be ejected well before the bolt is fully retracted.

To say that the spent cartridge can come in contact with the next live cartridge in the magazine shows either lack of knowledge of bolt action rifles OR a deliberate intent to mislead.

Thanks Tommy, that answers a lot - Lovelady and Shelley walk/run west on Elm, turn around to see Baker run to the front steps, then go to the end of Elm - just past the end of the TSBD building, stop at the first track, which if you look at the aerial photo Tommy posted, is right there at the end of Elm alley, and then they walk to the loading dock and enter the building through the west side door - and see the lady - Vickie Adams.

Lovelady then asks somebody what time is it?

How come they didn't ask him what time it was? What time was it?

It had to be something like 12:3? something.

And by then Baker and Truly were on the way up, right?

Would you please show me, in either Lovelady's or Shelley's testimony, where it is claimed they saw Victoria Adams anywhere on the 1st floor, immediately after they re-entered the TSBD?

Okay, they don't see Victoria Adams. They leave the front steps, run-walk to the end of Elm, walk to the back by way of the first rail road track and enter the west side door, and see Eddie Piper but not Victoria Adams. Adams says she too went out to the tracks and was ordered back into the building by a cop.

Shelley told the WC that when he reentered the TSBD from the west side door, he asked somebody (Piper?) what time it was, and the next question should have been - what time was it? -

Then he discussed whether there would be any more work that day - which is what Oswald said he hear Shelly talking about when he wandered off. The Warren Report says that Oswald claimed he heard Shelley say this "out front" but it is now apparent that this conversation took place in the rear of the TSBD, and if Frazier is correct in his having seen Oswald walk up Houston street, he must have exited the back, not the front.

What time was it when Shelley asked for the time?

I think we have pretty well established that it would have been impossible for Truly to give Bill Shelley an order to guard the elevators BEFORE Truly and Baker made their ascent up the stairs, for the simple fact that Truly/Baker had a far shorter distance to cover diagonally across the TSBD than Shelley/Lovelady did walking down to the parking lot and returning to the TSBD at the loading dock at the NW corner of the building. In other words, Truly/Baker were well on their way up the stairs before Shelley/Lovelady made it back inside the building.

What is really puzzling is this excerpt from the Warren Commission testimony of Victoria Adams:

"Mr. BELIN - When you got to the bottom of the first floor, did you see anyone there as you entered the first floor from the stairway?

Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Who did you see?

Miss ADAMS - Mr. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady.

Mr. BELIN - Where did you see them on the first floor?

Miss ADAMS - Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street dock that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, so I don't know how you would describe that.

Mr. BELIN - You are looking now at a first floor plan or diagram of the Texas School Book Depository, and you have pointed to a position where you encountered Bill Lovelady and Mr. Bill Shelley?

Miss ADAMS - That's correct.

Mr. BELIN - It would be slightly east of the front of the east elevator, and probably as far south as the length of the elevator, is that correct?

Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir."

According to Miss Adams, her and Sandra Styles began their descent from the 4th floor IMMEDIATELY after seeing Clint Hill climb onto the back of the limo. Considering the short distance to the 1st floor, she would have been at the 1st floor elevators at a time when Shelley/Lovelady were still walking down Elm St. to the parking lot. As I stated earlier, this is supported in the Stroud letter (02/06/64) in which Dallas US Attorney Marcia Joe Stroud tells WC Chief Counsel J. Lee Rankin:

“Miss Garner, Miss Adams’ supervisor, stated this morning that after Miss Adams went downstairs she (Miss Garner) saw Mr. Truly and the policeman come up.”

Sandra Styles was interviewed by researcher Barry Ernest post 2002 and she also confirmed Miss Adams' testimony concerning their rapid descent to the 1st floor following the last shot. However, she contradicts Miss Adams' by telling Mr. Ernest that she did NOT see Shelley/Lovelady at the 1st floor elevators.

Unfortunately, neither Garner nor Styles was asked to testify before the WC.

Considering everything we have, it seems highly probable that Miss Adams' testimony was altered by the Warren Commission to have her state that she saw Shelley/Lovelady at the elevators on the 1st floor when she arrived there from the 4th floor.

Further proof of alteration can be seen at the end of Miss Adams' testimony:

"Mr. BELIN - Miss ADAMS, you have the opportunity if you would like, to read this deposition and sign it before it goes to Washington, or you can waive the signing of it and just let the court reporter send it directly to us. Do you have any preference?

Miss ADAMS - I think I will let you use your own discretion.

Mr. BELIN - It doesn't make any difference to us. If it doesn't make any difference, we can waive it and you won't have to make another trip down here.

Miss ADAMS - That is all right.

Mr. BELIN - We want to thank you for your, cooperation. We know that it has taken time on your part. Would you also thank your employer?

Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir."

If Miss Adams waived the right to read her deposition and sign it, how can the Stroud letter, containing the corrections Miss Adams wished to be made in her deposition, be explained?

P.S. Miss Adams also told Ernest that she did not see Shelley/Lovelady on the 1st floor following her descent. She also denied waiving her right to go over her deposition prior to signing it.

Thanks Tommy, that answers a lot - Lovelady and Shelley walk/run west on Elm, turn around to see Baker run to the front steps, then go to the end of Elm - just past the end of the TSBD building, stop at the first track, which if you look at the aerial photo Tommy posted, is right there at the end of Elm alley, and then they walk to the loading dock and enter the building through the west side door - and see the lady - Vickie Adams.

Lovelady then asks somebody what time is it?

How come they didn't ask him what time it was? What time was it?

It had to be something like 12:3? something.

And by then Baker and Truly were on the way up, right?

Would you please show me, in either Lovelady's or Shelley's testimony, where it is claimed they saw Victoria Adams anywhere on the 1st floor, immediately after they re-entered the TSBD?

So, the likelihood of 6.5x52mm Carcano cartridges being manufactured, in large quantities by the WCC for the US Defense Dept. during WWII, to arm our new found friends in the Italian Co-Belligerent Army is far greater than the same cartridges being manufactured in 1954 for some bizarre scheme cooked up by the CIA to aid some anti-Communist faction in the Third World. There are several letters from the Olin Corp. supporting the manufacture of 6.5x52mm Carcano cartridges prior to 1944.

Now, before anyone gets excited and tells me I'm full of baloney, think about this. None of the cartridges in Lot 6000, 6001, 6002 and 6003 had anything stamped on their bases except "WCC" and "6.5mm". As there is no proof any of the pre-1940 lots of ammunition ever made it into the hands of the Italians, and next to nothing is known about the clandestine order for the USMC in 1954, who can say when the cartridges sold by WCC in 1954 were manufactured? And, who can say they were in their original boxes and nor re-packaged for the USMC?

Whatever army ended up with the WCC 6.5x52mm Carcano cartridges, I'm sure they were thrilled to death when it was discovered the cartridges came without a clip and the Carcanos were reduced to being single shot rifles.

Well, if you check the previous thread that I brought back to life on the subject of Oswald's Ammo, it is posted that the 6.5 bullets did come in boxes of 18 and 20 - some of them in three clips of six bullets, and the MC said to have been discovered on the Sixth Floor did have a clip and one live unspent bullet.

And what about the shell with the bent lip? And why did Fritz keep that one back when he sent the other two to DC with the FBI? And is it true that the one with the bent lip did not have the indications that it was ejected from the rifle?

What does FBI fire expert Frazier have to say about that bullet, the one with the bent lip?

And I think the FBI report on the manufacture's sale of the bullet batch to the USMC in the fifties is significant, as it sets down three spots on the map we know these bullets were physically at - the manufacturer - the USMC - and the Sixth Floor Sniper's Nest.

As Bill Turner once said, "When it comes to political murders and assassinations it's not who pulled the trigger who counts, it's who bought the bullets."

Who bought the bullets?

The only 6.5x52mm Carcano bullets that came in boxes of eighteen were the standard Italian military issue made by SMI (Societa Metallurgica Italiana). In each box, there were three clips, each holding six cartridges. The clip was a one time use and dropped out of the rifle as the last cartridge was chambered. Oddly, the clip in the Carcano in the SN did not fall out of the rifle when the assassin chambered the last cartridge.

Only the WCC 6.5 Carcano cartridges were loaded twenty to a box, and no clip came with these cartridges.

The "explanation" for the cartridge with the dent in the neck is that the assassin did not pull the bolt of the rifle back far enough when attempting to eject the spent round before chambering another round. Instead of the spent shell clearing the breech and being ejected, it stayed in the bullet extractor while the assassin was closing the bolt, thinking he was loading a live round. It then somehow "caught" on a protruding lip in the chamber and dented the cartridge.

I have been shooting bolt action rifles of all calibres, both military and sporting rifles, since I was a child, and I have never had an empty cartridge dented in this fashion. Nor have I ever heard of anyone else denting a cartridge in this fashion.

Try to picture how difficult it would be for this to occur. While not impossible, it requires the shooter to pull the bolt back a mere fraction of the normal distance required to eject a shell and load another one, before trying to close the bolt and catching the lip of the empty cartridge on the inside of the chamber. (with a live cartridge, the rounded or pointed nose allows the cartridge to go past this protrusion) If the assassin had any extra adrenalin at all flowing through his system, he would have, if anything, pulled harder on the bolt than he normally would have, instead of the very small pull required here.

It would be very possible to dent an empty cartridge if you tried to chamber an empty cartridge.

Well, that sure killed that thread.

the mileage he allegedly walked which makes absolutely no sense...

That myth has been pretty much debunked. At the very least, the postmark on Oswald's envelope very likely does not mean what the CTers think it means. More .... The Postmark On CE773

You still here, Dave? I thought everything was shut down.

So, the likelihood of 6.5x52mm Carcano cartridges being manufactured, in large quantities by the WCC for the US Defense Dept. during WWII, to arm our new found friends in the Italian Co-Belligerent Army is far greater than the same cartridges being manufactured in 1954 for some bizarre scheme cooked up by the CIA to aid some anti-Communist faction in the Third World. There are several letters from the Olin Corp. supporting the manufacture of 6.5x52mm Carcano cartridges prior to 1944.

Now, before anyone gets excited and tells me I'm full of baloney, think about this. None of the cartridges in Lot 6000, 6001, 6002 and 6003 had anything stamped on their bases except "WCC" and "6.5mm". As there is no proof any of the pre-1940 lots of ammunition ever made it into the hands of the Italians, and next to nothing is known about the clandestine order for the USMC in 1954, who can say when the cartridges sold by WCC in 1954 were manufactured? And, who can say they were in their original boxes and nor re-packaged for the USMC?

Whatever army ended up with the WCC 6.5x52mm Carcano cartridges, I'm sure they were thrilled to death when it was discovered the cartridges came without a clip and the Carcanos were reduced to being single shot rifles.

Well, if you check the previous thread that I brought back to life on the subject of Oswald's Ammo, it is posted that the 6.5 bullets did come in boxes of 18 and 20 - some of them in three clips of six bullets, and the MC said to have been discovered on the Sixth Floor did have a clip and one live unspent bullet.

And what about the shell with the bent lip? And why did Fritz keep that one back when he sent the other two to DC with the FBI? And is it true that the one with the bent lip did not have the indications that it was ejected from the rifle?

What does FBI fire expert Frazier have to say about that bullet, the one with the bent lip?

And I think the FBI report on the manufacture's sale of the bullet batch to the USMC in the fifties is significant, as it sets down three spots on the map we know these bullets were physically at - the manufacturer - the USMC - and the Sixth Floor Sniper's Nest.

As Bill Turner once said, "When it comes to political murders and assassinations it's not who pulled the trigger who counts, it's who bought the bullets."

Who bought the bullets?

The only 6.5x52mm Carcano bullets that came in boxes of eighteen were the standard Italian military issue made by SMI (Societa Metallurgica Italiana). In each box, there were three clips, each holding six cartridges. The clip was a one time use and dropped out of the rifle as the last cartridge was chambered. Oddly, the clip in the Carcano in the SN did not fall out of the rifle when the assassin chambered the last cartridge.

Only the WCC 6.5 Carcano cartridges were loaded twenty to a box, and no clip came with these cartridges.

The "explanation" for the cartridge with the dent in the neck is that the assassin did not pull the bolt of the rifle back far enough when attempting to eject the spent round before chambering another round. Instead of the spent shell clearing the breech and being ejected, it stayed in the bullet extractor while the assassin was closing the bolt, thinking he was loading a live round. It then somehow "caught" on a protruding lip in the chamber and dented the cartridge.

I have been shooting bolt action rifles of all calibres, both military and sporting rifles, since I was a child, and I have never had an empty cartridge dented in this fashion. Nor have I ever heard of anyone else denting a cartridge in this fashion.

Try to picture how difficult it would be for this to occur. While not impossible, it requires the shooter to pull the bolt back a mere fraction of the normal distance required to eject a shell and load another one, before trying to close the bolt and catching the lip of the empty cartridge on the inside of the chamber. (with a live cartridge, the rounded or pointed nose allows the cartridge to go past this protrusion) If the assassin had any extra adrenalin at all flowing through his system, he would have, if anything, pulled harder on the bolt than he normally would have, instead of the very small pull required here.

It would be very possible to dent an empty cartridge if you tried to chamber an empty cartridge.

So, the likelihood of 6.5x52mm Carcano cartridges being manufactured, in large quantities by the WCC for the US Defense Dept. during WWII, to arm our new found friends in the Italian Co-Belligerent Army is far greater than the same cartridges being manufactured in 1954 for some bizarre scheme cooked up by the CIA to aid some anti-Communist faction in the Third World. There are several letters from the Olin Corp. supporting the manufacture of 6.5x52mm Carcano cartridges prior to 1944.

Now, before anyone gets excited and tells me I'm full of baloney, think about this. None of the cartridges in Lot 6000, 6001, 6002 and 6003 had anything stamped on their bases except "WCC" and "6.5mm". As there is no proof any of the pre-1940 lots of ammunition ever made it into the hands of the Italians, and next to nothing is known about the clandestine order for the USMC in 1954, who can say when the cartridges sold by WCC in 1954 were manufactured? And, who can say they were in their original boxes and nor re-packaged for the USMC?

Whatever army ended up with the WCC 6.5x52mm Carcano cartridges, I'm sure they were thrilled to death when it was discovered the cartridges came without a clip and the Carcanos were reduced to being single shot rifles.

If you can find a photo of a WCC 6.5x52mm cartridge, you will see, on the base, that WCC did not stamp a date of manufacture on these bullets, as is the norm for military ammunition. All that is stamped on the base is "WCC" and "6.5mm".

Gary Wean, a US Navy vet of WWII and LAPD cop, wrote a book in the 1980s in which he recounted meeting Dallas Sheriff Bill Decker through actor and Medal of Honor recipient Audie Murphy. Decker told Wean that at one conversation over lunch "Decker told them that he knew Oswald had not fired the shots, and that a man in Dallas wanted to talk to somebody about it."

Murphy, Wean and another man then flew to Ruidoso, New Mexico where they met Decker and a man later identified as John Tower, who told them, "...Oswald was anything but a 'lone nut.' He was a U.S. intelligence agent acting under the direction of E. Howard Hut. Oswald had been recruited into military intelligence when he joined the Marines. His hanging out in an expensive Tokyo nightclub as a private , his learning Russian at the highly sensitive U2 base in Japan, his defection to the Soviet Union and other oddities were part of his intelligence career...Oswald was inducted into CIA covert activities and came under Hunt's direction....Oswald was going to participate in a fake assassination attempt on John Kennedy, and frame Castro for it. Oswald's apparent visit to the Cuban Embassy in Mexico City was part of laying an elaborate trail to Cuba. Hunt believed that if Castro could be implicated in an assassination attempt on JFK, the American people could be riled up into supporting an outright invasion of Cuba. JFK Was not aware of the fake assassination plan, but high-ranking officials in the government and administration were. Military intelligence, the FBI and CIA were all involved...."

http://jfkcountercoup2.blogspot.com/2013/10/bill-decker-john-tower-and-lee-harvey.htm

For more details see Wade Frazier's

http://www.ahealedplanet.net/cover-up.htm

While I don't put much credence in this story, I wonder if John Tower did try to promote this three weeks after the assassination, and if some parts can be confirmed - did Decker know Murphy?

Did Wean write the book and say that in the book The Fish In the Courthouse - 1987?

And why did they meet in Ruidoso, New Mexico? Did somebody live there?

There might not be much to this story, and it could be certifiable Disinformation, but then again, there might be something to it, especially if Tower did have documents and photos to back up his story.

It's just as believable as the story the WC came up with.

And you've never heard of the possibility that the Western Cartridge Co. manufactured 6.5mm Carcano cartridges under contract to the US Dept. of Defense, prior to 1944?

Tell me, Bill, are you aware that, following the removal of Benito Mussolini (Il Duce) in southern Italy in mid-1943, the Italian Co-Belligerent Army was formed? And are you also aware that these former Axis soldiers, mostly armed with 6.5mm Carcano rifles, fought alongside Allied troops in Italy (and elsewhere) against Fascist forces, and at one point accounted for one-eighth of all Allied combat troops in Italy?

Still like to know?

Nah, not really. Just keep it under your bed (alongside Wallace's Mauser).

Suit yourself.

I know something you don't know.

Let me guess -- you've got Mac Wallace's 7.65 Mauser hidden under your bed?

Why haven't you come forward with this bombshell earlier?! A book deal with Skyhorse Conspiracy Publishing awaits!!

Nope, simpler than that. And if I give it to you, I'll be committing the unthinkable sin of conceding a point to the LN side. As much as it pains me to do that, I believe in the truth, regardless of the consequences.

Still like to know?

Going to take your football and go home now, Dave?

I haven't the slightest idea what you're babbling about here.

But, anyway, I prefer baseball, Bob.

Yes, I can see that. Football would probably be a bit too rough for you.

It is highly unlikely the woman running past Lovelady and Shelley on the Elm St. Extension (in the Couch film) is Gloria Calvary.

The sequence of photos and film should establish the relative likely locations of L&S and Calvary at various times following the shots.

Begin with the last shot fired.

L&S are still on the Entrance Steps.

Calvary, Reed, Westbrook, Hicks, and Dishong are seen together on the curb in front of the Walkway of the North Pergola, in Zapruder.

Next comes the Couch clip, taken moments after the last shot.

L&S are seen moving down Elm St. Extension quite a ways from the steps when the unidentified woman runs past them.

After James Darnell jumped off Press Car 3, he runs West towards the underpass.

As he enters the Pergola area his camera captures Calvary, Hicks and Reed, still together and now on the grass but still in front of the walkway.

At about this same time, one of the Press buses that was behind Press Car #3 has turned the corner onto Elm and is now passing by the North Pergola area. Cabluck is inside.

Cabluck photo #3 captures Calvary, Westbrook, and Dishong in just about the same location as the Darnell frame mentioned above.

These photos show that L&S have had additional time to move further West, either on the Elm St Extension or on the traffic island, while Calvary and the girls are still in front of the Pergola walkway. The distance between L&S and Calvary is shrinking.

At this point, we should insert one more structural consideration. There is a concrete barrier wall that extends from the end of the colonnade of the North Pergola quite a ways towards the point of the traffic island. It is not very high, but looks high enough that women in skirts and high heels would walk around it rather than try to scale it. So Calvary and the girls had two possible routes to get back from their position: Take the sidewalk East towards the tip of the traffic island and cross the Elm street extension to the steps, or walk up the grassy slope to the enclosure at the east end of the colonnade where there is an opening to the Elm St. Extension.

So where did the L&S encounter with Gloria Calvary occur? Unless L&S turned around and went back toward the tip of the traffic island, it is likely that the encounter happened very near the colonnade enclosure opening when Calvary was hurrying back to the TSBD.

Thank you for that analysis, Richard. There definitely seem to be some mistakes in Shelley's testimony and his first day affidavit. Do you think Shelley and Lovelady were at the 1st floor elevators when Truly and Baker arrived there and that Shelley received orders from Truly at that time to guard the elevators? Do you think they were there when Victoria Adams arrived from the 4th floor?

I am still trying to sort this all out. The witness testimony is a free for all with Lovelady and Shelley giving contradictory statements at various times. Regarding your first question (did Shelley and Lovelady arrive at the elevators before Truly and Baker?), consider this: Baker is about to enter the building at just about the same time that James Darnell hops off the convertible at the corner of Houston and Elm. Darnell runs to the West (with Camera running in his hands), and goes all the way to the area in front of the colonnade. That is a distance greater than the distance Truly and Baker would have to cover to get to the NW stairs on the first floor. Darnell then takes film of Calvary on the grass just a few steps from her motorcade viewing spot by the Curb on Elm St.

Now unless Shelley and Lovelady came all the way down to where Gloria was, they still have not had their encounter ...

So the boys still need to pass by Calvary (presumably near the East colonnade enclosure, hear the news from her, go to the first RR tracks, then return to the TSBD first floor through the west entrance to get to the NW stairs. That all makes it very difficult for me to believe S&L were at the elevators when Truly and Baker arrived there.

Regarding your second question, if I were going to place a bet, I would put money on Vicky Adams getting down to the first floor before anyone else arrived there.

I have always found it odd that most researchers assume Truly ordered Shelley to guard the elevators before he and Baker ascended the stairs. I believe Shelley's testimony tells us exactly what happened.

"Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.

Mr. BALL - At the west end?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.

Mr. BALL - When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?

Mr. SHELLEY - I saw Eddie Piper.

Mr. BALL - What was he doing?

Mr. SHELLEY - He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.

Mr. BALL - Of the first floor of the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Who else did you see?

Mr. SHELLEY - That's all we saw immediately.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Vickie Adams?

Mr. SHELLEY - I saw her that day but I don't remember where I saw her.

Mr. BALL - You don't remember whether you saw her when you came back?

Mr. SHELLEY - It was after we entered the building.

Mr. BALL - You think you did see her after you entered the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; I thought it was on the fourth floor awhile after that.

Mr. BALL - Now, did the police come into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; they started coming in pretty fast.

Mr. BALL - Did you go with them any place?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway and some plainclothesmen came in; I don't know whether they were Secret Service or FBI or what but they wanted me to take them upstairs, so we went up and started searching the various floors."

When asked if the police came into the building, Shelley replies yes, "they" started coming in pretty fast. As Baker was by himself with Truly, the word "they" would not define him. However, by the time Truly and Baker had come back to the 1st floor, there would have been several more police there, as described by Shelley.

As you say, it is very difficult to believe Shelley and Lovelady would have beaten Truly, Baker or Miss Adams to the 1st floor elevators, considering the distances involved.

Robert and Richard,

It's interesting that in his WC testimony, Truly didn't say anything about posting Shelley (or anyone for that matter) at the elevators-- neither on Baker's and his way up to the roof, nor after their getting back down to the first floor (when it was a "madhouse," according to Truly).

It's also interesting that he said he saw Jack Dougherty on the fifth floor and some policemen on the fourth floor.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/truly1.htm

--Tommy

Very interesting, Thomas. I'm beginning to wonder if these witnesses actually all attended the same assassination.

Who has ever claimed selling him a box of ammo?

Nobody that I know of. But so what? Does that have to mean Oswald couldn't have obtained the ammo? Obviously not.

And who purchases a rifle and a revolver and then never buys any bullets to go into those weapons?

I know something you don't know.

David, if you can't see my argument, it's no use trying to explain it.

Same here.

Going to take your football and go home now, Dave? That'll teach 'em.

And Oswald couldn't possibly have thrown out the empty box of ammo at some point in time before 11/22/63, could he?

And I'll bet you still haven't figured out what I was talking about in the Walker shooting, Dave.

For a smart guy, you miss a lot of things.

P.S. It's bullet related and don't feel bad if you haven't figured it out yet. Most JFK researchers missed it, too.

Well, as far as I'm concerned, the Sixth Floor Sniper didn't get a Coke, but stuck around the sixth floor for awhile, and only a totally innocent person would get a Coke, something he did every day, and a routine others continued - as Dougherty went back to work after the assassination, and Frazer went down the basement and ate lunch, totally sensible for an innocent person.

And it's also sensible from the standpoint of a guilty assassin (Oswald) wanting everything to appear normal and routine after having just shot the President.

Plus, the Coke helps Oswald establish an alibi for the time of the shooting. He can say: "I just went to the second floor to get a Coke" -- which is precisely what he did try to use as his alibi. And the Bill Kellys of the world have fallen for Oswald's Coca-Cola lie.

But the evidence Oswald left behind on the sixth floor is telling a different story, isn't it? (Not to mention Howard Brennan's testimony.)

How do the "Oswald Was Just A Patsy" conspiracy promoters possibly get around that empty brown paper bag found on the sixth floor? I don't think they logically can. Here's what I said about that bag a few years ago--and it still applies today:

"I wonder what the odds are of Lee Harvey Oswald having carried a DIFFERENT brown bag into work from the one WITH HIS TWO IDENTIFIABLE PRINTS ON IT that was found by the cops in the Sniper's Nest on the 6th Floor? The odds must be close to "O.J. DNA" type numbers (in favor of the empty brown bag that was found by the police on the 6th Floor of the Book Depository being the very same bag that Buell Wesley Frazier and Linnie Mae Randle saw in Lee Harvey Oswald's hands on the morning of November 22nd, 1963 AD). I'm eagerly awaiting the logical and believable "conspiracy" explanation that will answer the question of why that 38-inch brown paper sack (which could house Oswald's 34.8-inch disassembled rifle), with Oswald's fingerprints on it, was in the place where it was found after the assassination -- the Sniper's Nest -- and yet still NOT have Oswald present at the SN window on November 22nd, 1963. I, for one, cannot think of a single "Oswald's Innocent" explanation for that bag being where it was found after the shooting, and with Lee Harvey Oswald's fingerprints on it." -- DVP; May 2005

Would you buy a used car from this man?

It is highly unlikely the woman running past Lovelady and Shelley on the Elm St. Extension (in the Couch film) is Gloria Calvary.

The sequence of photos and film should establish the relative likely locations of L&S and Calvary at various times following the shots.

Begin with the last shot fired.

L&S are still on the Entrance Steps.

Calvary, Reed, Westbrook, Hicks, and Dishong are seen together on the curb in front of the Walkway of the North Pergola, in Zapruder.

Next comes the Couch clip, taken moments after the last shot.

L&S are seen moving down Elm St. Extension quite a ways from the steps when the unidentified woman runs past them.

After James Darnell jumped off Press Car 3, he runs West towards the underpass.

As he enters the Pergola area his camera captures Calvary, Hicks and Reed, still together and now on the grass but still in front of the walkway.

At about this same time, one of the Press buses that was behind Press Car #3 has turned the corner onto Elm and is now passing by the North Pergola area. Cabluck is inside.

Cabluck photo #3 captures Calvary, Westbrook, and Dishong in just about the same location as the Darnell frame mentioned above.

These photos show that L&S have had additional time to move further West, either on the Elm St Extension or on the traffic island, while Calvary and the girls are still in front of the Pergola walkway. The distance between L&S and Calvary is shrinking.

At this point, we should insert one more structural consideration. There is a concrete barrier wall that extends from the end of the colonnade of the North Pergola quite a ways towards the point of the traffic island. It is not very high, but looks high enough that women in skirts and high heels would walk around it rather than try to scale it. So Calvary and the girls had two possible routes to get back from their position: Take the sidewalk East towards the tip of the traffic island and cross the Elm street extension to the steps, or walk up the grassy slope to the enclosure at the east end of the colonnade where there is an opening to the Elm St. Extension.

So where did the L&S encounter with Gloria Calvary occur? Unless L&S turned around and went back toward the tip of the traffic island, it is likely that the encounter happened very near the colonnade enclosure opening when Calvary was hurrying back to the TSBD.

Thank you for that analysis, Richard. There definitely seem to be some mistakes in Shelley's testimony and his first day affidavit. Do you think Shelley and Lovelady were at the 1st floor elevators when Truly and Baker arrived there and that Shelley received orders from Truly at that time to guard the elevators? Do you think they were there when Victoria Adams arrived from the 4th floor?

I am still trying to sort this all out. The witness testimony is a free for all with Lovelady and Shelley giving contradictory statements at various times. Regarding your first question (did Shelley and Lovelady arrive at the elevators before Truly and Baker?), consider this: Baker is about to enter the building at just about the same time that James Darnell hops off the convertible at the corner of Houston and Elm. Darnell runs to the West (with Camera running in his hands), and goes all the way to the area in front of the colonnade. That is a distance greater than the distance Truly and Baker would have to cover to get to the NW stairs on the first floor. Darnell then takes film of Calvary on the grass just a few steps from her motorcade viewing spot by the Curb on Elm St.

Now unless Shelley and Lovelady came all the way down to where Gloria was, they still have not had their encounter ...

So the boys still need to pass by Calvary (presumably near the East colonnade enclosure, hear the news from her, go to the first RR tracks, then return to the TSBD first floor through the west entrance to get to the NW stairs. That all makes it very difficult for me to believe S&L were at the elevators when Truly and Baker arrived there.

Regarding your second question, if I were going to place a bet, I would put money on Vicky Adams getting down to the first floor before anyone else arrived there.

I have always found it odd that most researchers assume Truly ordered Shelley to guard the elevators before he and Baker ascended the stairs. I believe Shelley's testimony tells us exactly what happened.

"Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.

Mr. BALL - At the west end?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.

Mr. BALL - When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?

Mr. SHELLEY - I saw Eddie Piper.

Mr. BALL - What was he doing?

Mr. SHELLEY - He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.

Mr. BALL - Of the first floor of the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Who else did you see?

Mr. SHELLEY - That's all we saw immediately.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Vickie Adams?

Mr. SHELLEY - I saw her that day but I don't remember where I saw her.

Mr. BALL - You don't remember whether you saw her when you came back?

Mr. SHELLEY - It was after we entered the building.

Mr. BALL - You think you did see her after you entered the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; I thought it was on the fourth floor awhile after that.

Mr. BALL - Now, did the police come into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; they started coming in pretty fast.

Mr. BALL - Did you go with them any place?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway and some plainclothesmen came in; I don't know whether they were Secret Service or FBI or what but they wanted me to take them upstairs, so we went up and started searching the various floors."

When asked if the police came into the building, Shelley replies yes, "they" started coming in pretty fast. As Baker was by himself with Truly, the word "they" would not define him. However, by the time Truly and Baker had come back to the 1st floor, there would have been several more police there, as described by Shelley.

As you say, it is very difficult to believe Shelley and Lovelady would have beaten Truly, Baker or Miss Adams to the 1st floor elevators, considering the distances involved.

When the FBI traced the bullet shells to the case they were originally in, there is a document that indicates that the case was part of a shipment sold to the United States Marine Corps in 1954 - even though the USMC did not have an official weapon that could use these bullets. Can anyone post that document?

I'd also like to see the dent in the lip of one of the shells and review what Tink Thompson had to say about that dent.

Thanks,

BK

I don't recall there being a 6.5mm Carcano cartridge case or carton found in Oswald's possessions.

It is highly unlikely the woman running past Lovelady and Shelley on the Elm St. Extension (in the Couch film) is Gloria Calvary.

The sequence of photos and film should establish the relative likely locations of L&S and Calvary at various times following the shots.

Begin with the last shot fired.

L&S are still on the Entrance Steps.

Calvary, Reed, Westbrook, Hicks, and Dishong are seen together on the curb in front of the Walkway of the North Pergola, in Zapruder.

Next comes the Couch clip, taken moments after the last shot.

L&S are seen moving down Elm St. Extension quite a ways from the steps when the unidentified woman runs past them.

After James Darnell jumped off Press Car 3, he runs West towards the underpass.

As he enters the Pergola area his camera captures Calvary, Hicks and Reed, still together and now on the grass but still in front of the walkway.

At about this same time, one of the Press buses that was behind Press Car #3 has turned the corner onto Elm and is now passing by the North Pergola area. Cabluck is inside.

Cabluck photo #3 captures Calvary, Westbrook, and Dishong in just about the same location as the Darnell frame mentioned above.

These photos show that L&S have had additional time to move further West, either on the Elm St Extension or on the traffic island, while Calvary and the girls are still in front of the Pergola walkway. The distance between L&S and Calvary is shrinking.

At this point, we should insert one more structural consideration. There is a concrete barrier wall that extends from the end of the colonnade of the North Pergola quite a ways towards the point of the traffic island. It is not very high, but looks high enough that women in skirts and high heels would walk around it rather than try to scale it. So Calvary and the girls had two possible routes to get back from their position: Take the sidewalk East towards the tip of the traffic island and cross the Elm street extension to the steps, or walk up the grassy slope to the enclosure at the east end of the colonnade where there is an opening to the Elm St. Extension.

So where did the L&S encounter with Gloria Calvary occur? Unless L&S turned around and went back toward the tip of the traffic island, it is likely that the encounter happened very near the colonnade enclosure opening when Calvary was hurrying back to the TSBD.

Thank you for that analysis, Richard. There definitely seem to be some mistakes in Shelley's testimony and his first day affidavit. Do you think Shelley and Lovelady were at the 1st floor elevators when Truly and Baker arrived there and that Shelley received orders from Truly at that time to guard the elevators? Do you think they were there when Victoria Adams arrived from the 4th floor?

And don't forget the dangling participle. Here is my all time favourite:

"One morning I shot an elephant in my pyjamas. How he got in my pyjamas, I don't know." --- Groucho Marx

If you want Dave, we can just create some automatic pop ups to post whenever a silly conspiracy theory comes up.

Nah, you'd better not do that, Bill. Because, since every JFK conspiracy theory ever invented is silly to start with, I wouldn't be able to keep up with the onslaught of pop-ups.

Just make my site below "pop up" instead. That should do the trick....

"If there is absolutely no evidence against Oswald (as many conspiracy theorists seem to think), then what made the Dallas Police Department decide to charge Lee Harvey Oswald with two murders before midnight on November 22, 1963? Do people usually get officially charged with TWO murders by the police department if there is absolutely no evidence against them whatsoever?" -- David Von Pein; September 28, 2013

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"The Warren Commission critics and conspiracy theorists display an astonishing inability to see the vast forest of evidence proving Oswald's guilt because of their penchant for obsessing over the branches, even the leaves of individual trees. And, because virtually all of them have no background in criminal investigation, they look at each leaf (piece of evidence) by itself, hardly ever in relation to, and in the context of, all the other evidence." -- Vince Bugliosi

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"Coming up with a believable and reasonable conspiracy-endorsing alternative to the Warren Commission's single-bullet conclusion is something that simply cannot be done. And that's mainly because the SBT is obviously the truth. And when you try to dismantle the truth and replace it with some kind of half-baked, incoherent "alternative theory" (such as the "TWO BULLETS WENT INTO JFK AND NEVER EXITED AND THEN DISAPPEARED" claptrap), you're not likely to find the alternative to be nearly as compelling (or reasonable) as the truth." -- David Von Pein; September 1, 2010

More examples:

JFK-Archives.blogspot.com / JFK Assassination Arguments (Part 432)

This guy should be selling used cars on late night TV.