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Steve Thomas

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  1. Tosh Very good documentation can be found if you ask for it in the right manner. Who would you ask? Steve Thomas
  2. Captain Fritz knew Oswald lived on Beckley before he started talking to him. The address didn’t come from Oswald and it didn’t come from any of the arresting officers. The Sheriff’s Deputies didn’t learn it until after the police had already arrived at Beckley. If Hosty can be believed, it didn’t come from the FBI. I believe it came from someone associated with military intelligence. In his HSCA unpublished testimony, Col. Jones said that he had been contacted early in the afternoon informing him that a person named A. J. Hidell had come to the attention of the authorities. (He thought that it was because Hidell had been arrested, but couldn't be sure) (I thought that part of his testimony was very interesting.) Jones said that he checked his card index and checked the name A. J. Hidell... http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...jones_0020a.htm That all sound kind of innoucuous, but I've been doing a little reading about the 4th Army Headquarters at Fort Same Houston. Here is an exceprt from a book by Morton Halperin, et.al. entitled, The Lawless State: "In July 1969, the Department of Defense opened a new war room in the basement of the Pentagon. Staffed by some 180 people and packed with all the latest equipment -data processing machines, closed circuit television, teletype networks, elaborate situation maps-the new operation was a marvel of military technology. The most striking aspect, however, was not the imposing technology, but the purposes that were being served. This was not a regular command center but a very special operation-a "domestic war room," the headquarters of the Directorate for Civil Disturbance Planning and Operations. It was the coordinating center for the Pentagon's domestic war operations. The office, now known as the Division of Military Services, played a central role in the military's widespread intelligence operations against the American people, a sweeping campaign of civilian surveillance which ultimately affected more than 100,000 citizens. In the fall of 1968, there were more Army Counter-lntelligence Analysis Branch personnel assigned to monitor domestic citizen protests than were assigned to any other counter-intelligence operation in the world, including Southeast Asia and the Vietnam War.' In the later part of the 1960s and early 1970s, 1,500 army plainclothes intelligence agents with the services of more than 350 separate offices and record centers watched and infiltrated thousands of legitimate civilian political organizations. Data banks with as many as 100,000 entries each were maintained at intelligence headquarters at Fort Holabird, Maryland, and at Fourth Army headquarters at Fort Sam Houston, Texas." According to Jones' testimony, "From 1960, I attended and completed the advanced intelligence course at Fort Holabird, Maryland. He was then assigned to Nuremburg Germany. (Would he have worked or met with Edwin Walker?) He came back from Germany and was assigned to Fort Sam Houston from June, 1963 to January 1, 1965. He was reassigned to Fort Holabird. He served there for 18 months and then back to the 112th for another seven months. This guy certainly was at the center of domestic counterintelligence work. Steve Thomas
  3. John, Was their a link between this point and the claim that the assassination was part of an international conspiracy? I read in a book somewhere (it may have been Larry Sneed's No More Silence) that Assistant DA William Alexander bragged that he was the one who drew up the International Communist Conspiracy angle because he was tired of hearing the right wing get blamed for JFK's assassination. In essence, he said, "Yeah, I did it, and I'm proud of it." Steve Thomas
  4. How did the police first learn that Oswald lived at 1026 N. Beckley? His employment records at the TSBD listed him at 2515 W. 5th St. in Irving. So how did they know about Beckley? Arthur C. Johnson, the owner of the rooming house on Beckley told the Warren Commission (10H303) Mr. JOHNSON. Well, they just came down there looking for--uh--Oswald. Mr. BELIN. Did they say what his full name was? Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, I believe they did. Mr. BELIN. Lee Harvey Oswald? Mr. JOHNSON. I believe they did. Mr. BELIN. Did they say how they happened to come there? Mr. JOHNSON. "Well, uh--after he was--uh--apprehended out there, they searched him and found my address in his pocket. Mr. BELIN. Your address of 1026 North Beckley? Mr. JOHNSON. That's right. I've never seen that piece of paper in any of the evidence sheets. In addition, that's not how the police tell it. Detective Bob Carroll was the officer who grabbed Oswald's pistol out of his hand and stuck in his belt at the Texas Theater. He drove the car that carried Oswald back to City Hall. (7H25) Concerning the car ride back to City Hall: Mr. BELIN. Did he give his name? Mr. CARROLL. He gave, the best I recall, I wasn't able to look closely, but the best I recall, he gave two names, I think. I don't recall what the other one was. Mr. BELIN. Did he give two names? Or did someone in the car read from the identification? Mr. CARROLL. Someone in the car may have read from the identification. I know two names, the best I recall, were mentioned. Mr. BELIN. Were any addresses mentioned? Mr. CARROLL. Not that I recall; no, sir. Mr. BELIN. Did you ever hear anyone say anything about his having an address on North Beckley or on Beckley Street? Mr. CARROLL. I heard later, but I couldn't say who it was that said it. Mr. BELIN. When you say later, you mean later than what? Mr. CARROLL. Later that day. Mr. BELIN. Was this after you relinquished custody of Oswald? Mr. CARROLL. Yes. Mr. BELIN. Up to that time had you heard it? Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall hearing it prior to the time I was in the city hall. Guy Rose was one of the first police officers to talk to Oswald when they arrived at the station. He told the WC: (7H229) Mr. Ball: Did you ask him what his address was? Mr. Rose: Yes, but from there, he wouldn’t tell me – He just said, “You just find out”. Mr. Ball: Now, did anybody ever tell you that his address was 1026 N. Beckley? Mr. Rose: Later they did – right then they didn’t: no sir. Mr. Ball: You didn’t know it at that time? Mr. Rose; No sir, I didn’t Detective Richard Sims sat in on Oswald's first interrogation beginning at 2:20PM (7H158) Mr. BALL There was one time there that you learned that he had a room at 1026 North Beckley--when did you learn that? Mr. SIMS. I don't know when that was, now, that was found out that first day, I believe... Mr. BALL. Can you tell me whether or not you are the one that found out he had a room at 1026 North Beckley? Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't. Mr. BALL. He didn't tell you that? Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't believe he did. On Friday afternoon November 22nd, 3 Dallas Police Officers and 3 Dallas Co. Sheriff's Deputies were dispatched to 2515 W. Fifth St. in Irving Texas. Oswald had been arrested at about 1:50PM, arrived at City Hall after 2:00 PM and was taken into Captain Fritz's office at 2:20PM. Police Officers Adamcik (7H202), Rose (7H227) and Stovall (7H186) are unanimous in saying that Captain Fritz dispatched them to Irving at 2:30 PM. They are also unanimous in saying that when they arrived at this address, they had to wait for 35-40 minutes for the Deputy Sheriffs to arrive since Irving was outside their jurisdiction. In his after-action report filed with Chief Curry (City of Dallas archives - JFK Collection) Box 3, Folder# 1, Item# 3 http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box3.htm Guy Rose wrote that after the Deputies showed up, they arrived at the front door at 3:30PM. Harry Weatherford, Buddy Walthers, and J. L. Oxford were the deputies dispatched to Irving. You can find their accounts in the Supplementary Reports they filed with Sheriff Decker in volume 19 of the WC Hearings. Walthers, Weatherford and Sheriff Decker all said that Ruth Paine gave them a telephone number where Oswald could be reached and that they criss-crossed that number and came up with the Beckley St. address. At 2:40 PM, W.E. Potts, B.L. Senkel and Lt. E.L. Cunningham were dispatched to 1026 N. Beckley. Potts wrote in his after-action report (Box 2, Folder# 9, Item# 32) http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm that after he finished taking some affidavits, Fritz dispatched them to the Beckely St address at 2:40 and they arrived at Beckley at 3:00PM. Detective B.L. Senkel also said in his after action report (Dallas Police Archives Box 3, Folder# 12, Item#1) that they arrived at 1026 N. Beckley at 3:00PM. They checked the register and found that Oswald had been living there since October 14th. Because of that 40 minute wait at the Irving address, the police actually arrived at the Beckley St. address BEFORE they searched the Irving address. They did not search the room on Beckley until Detective Turner, David Johnston, and Deputy DA Bill Alexander arrived with a search warrant at 4:30 or 5:00PM (Potts, Dallas City Archives - JFK Collection) So, if the police had already been at Beckley for 30 minutes before they began the search at Irving to find a telephone number that they criss-crossed, how did they know about Beckley? According to Will Fritz, someone, whose name he could not remember gave him Oswald's Beckley address before he began interrogating Oswald: (4H207) Mr. FRITZ. When I started to talk to this prisoner or maybe just before I started to talk to him, some officer told me outside of my office that he had a room on Beckley, I don't know who that officer was, I think we can find out, I have since I have talked to you this morning I have talked to Lieutenant Baker and he says I know maybe who that officer was, but I am not sure yet. (4H210) Mr. Ball. Was there anything said about where he lived? Mr. Fritz. Where he lived? Right at that time? Mr. Ball. Yes Mr. Fritz. I am sure I had no way of asking him where he lived, but I am not too sure about that – just how quick he told me because he corrected me, I thought he lived in Irving and he told me he didn’t live in Irving. He lived on Beckley as the officer had told me outside. Oswald's interrogation began around 2:20. FBI agent James Hosty, who may have gotten Oswald's phone number from Ruth Paine during one of his two visits on November 1st and 5th and could have criss-crossed the number earlier, did not arrive at Police Headquarters until 3:15PM. By then, Will Fritz already had the Beckley adddress. Find the answer to who that officer was who gave it to Fritz and you might begin to learn who set Oswald up. Was this officer possibly Detective Leonard Don Stringfellow? In the National Archives, there is a message dated November 26, 1963 from the Commanding General, U.S. Continental Army Command re-transmitting a message dated November 23, 1963 from someone at Fort Sam Houston, in San Antonio to CINC U.S. Strike Command at McDill Air Force Base in Florida. The November 23rd message summarizes a telephone conversation between a Captain Saxton in Strike Command and a Lieutenant Colonel Fons, Deputy Chief of Staff, Intelligence at 4th Army Headquarters at Fort Sam Houston that took place on November 23, 1963. In the middle of this summary, there is this passage: “ASSISTANT CHIEF DON STRINGFELLOW, INTELLIGENCE SECTION, DALLAS POLICE DEPARTMENT, NOTIFIED 112TH INTC GP, THIS HQ, THAT INFORMATION OBRAINED FROM OSWALD REVEALED HE HAD DEFECTED TO CUBA IN 1959 AND IS CARD CARRYING MEMBER OF COMMUNIST PARTY EVALUATION B-3 (FOUO) DCSI COMMENT , FBI, DALLAS, TEXAS, AND SAN ANTONIO LIGHT NEWSPAPER STATED OSWALD TRAVELED TO MOSCOW, USSR, IN 1959. POSSIBILITY EXISTS THAT OSWALD MAY HAVE TRAVELED TO USSR VIA CUBA, IN VIEW OF ABOVE INFORMATION UNCOVERED BY DALLAS POLICE.” In November, 1963 Leonard Don Stringfellow was a Detective in the Criminal Intelligence Section of the Dallas Police Department Special Services Bureau, headed by Captain W. P. Gannaway. What is interesting about this document is that is says that Detective Stringfellow “notified 112th Intelligence Group, this Headquarters…” I believe that this message was the one Col. Robert Jones, formerly of the 112 Military Intelligence Group in San Antonio was asked about during his testimony before the HSCA on April 20, 1978. (History Matters Archive – Unpublished testimony of Robert Jones, pp. 55-57. http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...jones_0055a.htm Jones told the HSCA that while he did not know who prepared the cable, the cable was prepared by Mr. Arthur Nagle on the staff of the Chief of Staff, Intelligence, Fort Sam Houston. The From line on the original cable reads: FM CGASARFOUR FTSAMHOUSTON TEX. This could be Commanding General, Assistant Secretary, Fourth Army Headquarters Fort Sam Houston. He also definitely said that the original cable had not been prepared by the 112th. The RIF for this document reads as follows: AGENCY INFORMATION AGENCY : USA RECORD NUMBER : 197-10002-10369 RECORDS SERIES : HEADQUARTERS FILES, PENTAGON TELECOMMUNICATIONS CENTER DOCUMENT INFORMATION ORIGINATOR : COMMANDING GENERAL US CONTINENTAL ARMY COMMAND FROM : TO : CINC, US STRIKE COMMAND TITLE : INFORMATION ON FAIR PLAY FOR CUBA COMMITTEE DATE : 11/26/1963 PAGES : 3 DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT SUBJECTS : MILITARY DOMESTIC SURVEILLANCE (SECURITY RISKS/COUNTERINTELLIGENCE); MILITARY DOMESTIC SURVEILLANCE (FAIR PLAY FOR CUBA COMMITTEE); LEE HARVEY OSWALD; COLLINS, BARBARA; GIBSON, RICHARD; OSWALD, HARVEY LEE: BACKGROUND INFORMATION, CONNECTION WITH COMMITTEE; MEMBER OF COMMUNIST PARTY; TRAVEL TO USSR, CUBA; OSWALD, MARINA NIKOLAEVNA: SPOUSE; STRINGFELLOW, DON: ASST CHIEF, INTELLIGENCE SECTION, DALLAS POLICE DEPT; MILITARY INTELLIGENCE LIAISON WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT (DALLAS POLICE) CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED RESTRICTIONS : OPEN IN FULL CURRENT STATUS : OPEN DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 07/30/1996 COMMENTS : COPY ATTACHED Ironically, several of the individuals referenced in the original cable were with President Kennedy four days before his assassination when he visited MacDill Air Force Base in Tampa on November 18th. In an article published by Frank DeBenedictis entitled: FOUR DAYS BEFORE DALLAS: JFK IN TAMPA http://www.lib.usf.edu/ldsu/digitalcollect...v16n2_94_57.pdf, DeBenedictis writes: “While Suncoast residents moved into their stadium and motorcade viewing spots, the Presidential party was landing at MacDill Air Force Base for a military welcome. On hand to greet Kennedy were General Paul D. Adams, Commander in Chief U.S. Strike Command; Lieutenant General Bruce K. Holloway, Adams’ deputy; General Walter Sweeney, Commander of TAC and headquartered at Langley A.F.B., Virginia; and General John K. Waters, Commander in Chief Continental Army Command, Ft. Monroe, Virginia.” At first, I thought FBI SA James Hosty was the source of information to the police department about Oswald's 1026 N. Beckley address since he was in charge of Oswald’s file but if he can be believed, he didn't know Oswald's address. Hosty (4H440 +) concerning his November 1st visit with Ruth Paine: "I then told her the purpose of my visit, that I was interested in locating the whereabouts of Lee Oswald. She readily admitted that Mrs. Marina Oswald and Lee Oswald's two children were staying with her. She said that Lee Oswald was living somewhere in Dallas. She didn't know where. She said it was in the Oak Cliff area but she didn't have his address". Concerning his November 5th visit: Mr. Hosty. Well, I was on my way to Fort Worth, and I did not have his residence. I thought I would stop by. Mrs. Paine told me she would attempt to locate where he was living. It was not too much out of my way, so I just drove over to Mrs. Paine's. I had another agent with me that day. Mr. Stern. Who Was that? Mr. Hosty. Agent Gary S. Wilson. We went to the front porch. I rang the bell, talked to Mrs. Paine, at which time she advised me that Lee Oswald had been out to visit her, visit his wife, at her house over the Weekend, but she had still not determined where he was living in Dallas... Mr. Stern. Did you take any action on this case. between November 5 and November 22? Mr. Hosty. No, sir. However, Hosty was contradicted by SS Inspector Thomas Kelley. Thomas Kelley was an Inspector with the Secret Service. He was dispatched from Louisville, KY to handle the Secret Service end of things and arrived in Dallas at 10:30PM. Thomas Kelley's testimony before the HSCA (vol. III pp. 332-333): Mr. MATTHEWS. Now, when you were in Dallas, you received information from an Agent Patterson that he had talked with an FBI agent regarding some top secret information in regard to Lee Harvey Oswald? Inspector KELLEY. Yes. Mr. MATTHEWS. And he indicated to that agent that he could not tell him what the information was, but that it would be exchanged at the Washington level? Inspector KELLEY. Yes. Mr. MATTHEWS. Specifically, he mentioned the fact that the agent had had contact with Marina Oswald some 10 days before the assassination? Inspector KELLEY. Yes. Mr. MATTHEWS. And you later learned that that agent was James P. Hosty? Inspector KELLEY. Yes. Mr. MATTHEWS. Did you ever find out what top secret information he was referring to? Inspector KELLEY. No, I didn't find out any top secret information he was referring to, but, of course, the information came to us shortly thereafter, perhaps at the same time, that the FBI had contacts with Oswald and had contact with Marina to find Oswald and to talk to him. In discussing what this information was later, I think that it referred to the fact that Oswald had been in Russia. Mr. MATTHEWS. Well, you say you think; did you ever discuss that with Inspector Malley? Inspector KELLEY. No, I didn't. Mr. MATTHEWS. Did you ever find that the agent who, in fact, had contact with Marina had been special agent James Hosty? Inspector KELLEY. Yes, I learned that as a general piece of information, that Hosty was the control agent for Lee Harvey Oswald and that in that connection he had contacted Marina. Mr. MATTHEWS. Did you ever learn about what has become known as the Hosty note? Inspector KELLEY. No; that never came to my attention. Hosty contacted Marina 10 days before the assassination. Then on the 16th, Oswald goes to the FBI and delivers his infamous “note.” Concerning his actions on the 22nd of November, Hosty testified: Mr. Hosty. All right. After the conference that lasted until about 9 a.m, I then left the office and joined an Army Intelligence agent, and an agent of the Alcohol Tax Unit of the Treasury Department. We had a conference concerning a case not related to Lee Oswald. This conference lasted most of the morning until about 11:45. At 11:45 the Army Intelligence agent and myself left, and walked over towards Main Street. Mr. Hosty. Shortly after 2 o'clock, we received information that this man had been captured and taken to the Dallas Police Department. One of our agents called from the Dallas Police Department and identified this man as Lee Harvey Oswald. I immediately recognized the name. Hosty (4H461) Mr. HOSTY. Right. There are no regional offices. I then took the file to the agent in charge, told him that we had a case on Lee Harvey Oswald. While I sat there he immediately called headquarters and advised headquarters here in Washington, D.C., that Lee Harvey Oswald was under arrest down at Dallas and had been observed shooting a police officer. They had eyewitnesses to his killing of Officer Tippit. Mr. STERN. How do you know that? Mr. HOSTY. This had been given to us by one of our agents from the call from the Dallas Police Department who had given the information. I don't know who it was. I did not receive the call. From the unpublished HSCA testimony of Robert Jones page 25: Referring to JFK Exhibit 101 - an FBI communication to the Director of the FBI and Special Agent in Charge in Dallas from Special Agent in Charge, San Antonio dated 11/22/63: Mr. Genzman. Would you read through the document and comment on its accuracy? Mr. Jones. The second line after San Antonio, "advised the news broadcasts that he learned Lee Harvey Oswald had been arrested", that should be changed. I was advised through a source in the police department. Page 29: Mr. Genzman. Could you identify your source? Mr. Jones. Without my records, I cannot, but I would like to state that he was a member if the 112th Military Intelligence, he was an agent. Mr. Genzman. Are you saying that these sources, which were military intelligence personnel, actually worked as law enforcement officers for these local agencies, or that they worked alongside these law enforcement agencies? Mr. Jones. Our special agents assigned to a military intelligence group were military personnel in most cases, and they would have sources within the police department that would be on the payroll of the police department report to them. And the source that I received this information from came through a source in the police department through my agent that I considered a source to me. Jones was asked if Captain Gannaway was this source. I believe that it was Detective Stringfellow. However, there is also the possibility that Deputy Chief George L. Lumpkin served as an Intelligence Agent in the Reserves. Ron Ecker posted the following in the JFK Lancer Forum on 11/13/04: Significantly, Peter Dale Scott in Deep Politics (p. 273-274) says that he had been “reliably informed” (he obviously chooses not to identify the source) that Deputy Chief Lumpkin, who drove the pilot car Whitmeyer was riding in, was “a member of the Army Intelligence Reserve.” Yet Scott refers to Whitmeyer as simply “a local army-reserve commander.” Why would Scott ignore any Army Intelligence role for Whitmeyer while making a point of Lumpkin being in the Army Intelligence Reserve? Lieutenant Jack Revill testified before the Warren Commission concerning a report he had filed with Chief Jesse Curry wherein he had wrongly listed Oswald’s address as 605 Elsbeth: Revill (5H41) Mr. RANKIN. And the words 605 Elsbeth Street, was that given by you? Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; this is the address we were given or I was given by some of the officers involved in the arrest. Mr. RANKIN. Who gave that to you? Mr. REVILL. I believe Detective Carroll, Carroll or Detective Taylor, they were both there. Lieutenant Revill told the Warren Commission that he drafted his report within 30 minutes to an hour of when he and Hosty had their conversation in the basement (5H39), but as we saw above, Detective Carroll did not know Oswald’s address until much later in the evening. Mr. RANKIN. And was that at the time you made this out that you were given that information? Mr. REVILL. Shortly before I made this out. Mr. RANKIN. You didn't even know where he lived then? Mr. REVILL. No, sir; I did not. I had never heard of him. Mr. RANKIN. You know that is wrong, don't you? Mr. REVILL. The 605? Mr. RANKIN. Yes. Mr. REVILL. I don't know. Mr. RANKIN. Is it wrong? Mr. REVILL. Yes; it is. Mr. DULLES. As of the time. Mr. REVILL. That is what they gave me. Mr. RANKIN. You found that out? Mr. DULLES. This is an address he once lived at. Mr. RANKIN. Do you know that? Mr. DULLES. This is correct. I want to find out what he knows about it. Mr. REVILL. Is this a-is this an incorrect address on Mr. Oswald where he was living at the time? Mr. RANKIN. If you check it up I think you will find--it is an incorrect address at the time. I think you will also find that 602 Elsbeth Street is where he lived at one time. Mr. REVILL. Now, where they got this address---- Mr. RANKIN. You never checked that? Mr. REVILL. I personally have not checked it but I am sure it has been checked. Mr. RANKIN. I see. Mr. REVILL. But this is the address I was given. (5H42) Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question? Where did you get this address that you put on of 605 Elsbeth Street, do you recall? Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; from Detective E. B. Carroll or Detective Taylor. Mr. DULLES. Are they subordinates? Mr. REVILL. No; they are detectives assigned to the special service bureau. One of them works the narcotics squad and one of them is assigned to the vice unit. Mr. DULLES. You never ascertained where they got it? Mr. REVILL. No, sir; this might be the address that they got from Oswald, I do not know. I never even thought about it until you brought up the point that this is not the address. Mr. DULLES. Can you find out where they got this address? Mr. REVILL. Yes, sir; I can. Mr. DULLES. I think that would be useful. I would like to know that. I would like to know where they got this address also. Mr. REVILL. It would have been the same day because this was made within an hour---- p. 47 The CHAIRMAN. I think that is all. Thank you, again, lieutenant. Mr. REVILL. I will attempt to find out on that address, and I shall let Mr. Sorrels know, with Secret Service. In their after-action reports filed with Chief Curry on December 3rd, neither Caroll (DPD Archives Box 5, Folder# 2, Item# 73), nor Detective E.E. Taylor, Special Services Bureau, Narcotics Section (DPD Archives Box 5, Folder# 2, Item# 81) make mention of giving Revill Oswald’s address and I have never seen a document or any other reference where Revill did in fact inform Sorrels where Carroll and Taylor got that address. Dallas Police Sergeant Gerald Hill rode in the front seat of the car that drove Oswald from the Texas Theater to City Hall. Hill says several times in his WC testimony (7H60) that he did not know where the Beckley Street address came from and was not aware of it before he turned Oswald over to Robbery and Homicide. Hill did not learn of it until 7:00 or 8:00PM that night. The normal booking process was bypassed in this case. Carroll, Hill and Walker all said that when arriving at City Hall, they went directly up to the third floor. None of the arresting officers who rode with Oswald from the Theater to downtown said that Oswald gave them his Beckley St. address. As a matter of fact, Oswald was refusing to tell anyone where he lived. I belive that Fritz was correct. When confronted with it, Oswald did not deny living there, but I don't believe he volunteered it either. I had been under the impression that the police got the Beckley street address when Officers Stovall, Rose, and Adamcik went to the Irving address and either got the address from Ruth Paine, or she gave them a telephone number that the police crossed referenced. However, none of the three Dallas City Police officers mentions in their reports getting the Beckley St. address from Ruth Paine. Harry Weatherford, Buddy Walthers, and J.L. Oxford were the Sheriff’s Deputies dispatched to Irving. Walthers, Weatherford and Sheriff Decker all said that Ruth Paine gave them a telephone number where Oswald could be reached and that they criss-crossed that number and came up with the Beckley St. address. However, their accounts differ. Harry Weatherford 19H503 Supplementary Investigation Report filed 11/23/63 I stayed with Mrs. Oswald and Mrs. Payne while the rest of the men searched the house….While standing near the phone bar, I saw a BLACK telephone address book which I picked up and thumbed through, finding in the “O’s” the name of Lee Oswald, Texas School Book Depository and the telephone number. Then another phone number, which I believe was written in PENCIL. I asked what this number was, pointing to this pencil number, and Mrs. Payne said that is the phone where Lee was living. I gave this number to Deputy Buddy Walthers and told him to call the Sheriff and advise him of our findings. That this was all fitting in together with the Assassination of President Kennedy. From Richard S. Stovall's Warren Commission testimony 7H190 Concerning a list of items taken out of 2515 W. Fifth St. “I’ve got listed One BLUE Check telephone index book (addresses) – I’m not sure which bedroom that came from. Buddy Walthers 19H520 Supplementary Investigation Report filed 11/22/63 Mrs. Payne then gave us a telephone number and stated that was the number of Lee Oswald, however, she advised she did not know an address where he was staying. At this time, I called Sheriff Decker and advised him of this and he criss-crossed this telephone number and gave us an address of 1026 N. Beckley. He advised he would dispatch other officers to cover this address. In his Warren Commission testimony 7H549 taken July 23, 1964, Walthers changes the scenario slightly "We didn't go to the trouble of looking at any of this stuff much---just more or less confiscated it at the time, and we looked at it there just like that, and then we took all this stuff and put it in the car and then Mrs. Paine got a phone number from Mrs. Oswald where you could call Lee Harvey Oswald in Oak Cliff". Decker 19H462 Mrs. Payne gave Deputy Walthers a telephone number where she said that Lee Oswald had been staying at, however, she stated that she did not know the address. Officer Walthers then called me by public service giving me this information, whereupon, I had called Allan Sweatt, Chief Criminal Deputy and Deputy Clint Lewis to locate this address both by criss cross and also verifying same through telephone company. Mr. Sweatt reported to me that the telephone number was 1026 N. Beckley. At this time I requested that David Johnston, Justice of the Peace, to issue a search warrant to that location for officers to search the premises. Information was obtained at this address from the landlady to the effect that a man by the name of O.H. Lee had been living at this location for a period of two weeks. Did Ruth Paine volunteer the number? Did Harry Weatherford find it? Did Ruth Paine get the number from Marina? Allan Sweatt 19H533 makes no mention of this in his Supplementary Investigation Report file with Sheriff Decker on 11/23/63 J.L. Oxford, the other deputy present, J.L. Oxford Supplementary Investigation Report filed with Sheriff Decker 11/23/63 makes no mention of Ruth Paine giving the police Oswald’s phone number. Also, they say that they got the Beckley St. phone number AFTER the search of the Irving address was underway, however, police have BEEN AT THE BECKLEY ST. ADDRESS FOR OVER 30 MINUTES BY THIS TIME. Ruth Paine 3H37 Lee calls on October 14th to report that he has found employment at the TSBD Mrs. Paine. He gave me a telephone number, possibly this same weekend. The weekend of the 12th) Mrs. Paine. Yes. He said of the room where he was staying, renting a room, and I could reach him here if she went into labor. Mr. Jenner. Just stick to this particular occasion. What telephone number – did you record it? Lee WANTED to be reached (His wife was about to give birth to Rachel) Mrs. Paine. Yes. In INK in my telephone book. Mrs. Paine. The number was WH2-1985 Mr. Jenner. He did not give you an address? Mrs. Paine. No. He gave her a second phone number. She said she couldn’t remember when or how he transmitted that number to her. She said Oswald told her he had changed rooms, but thought that it was after he had started work at the TSBD Mr. Jenner. On the second occasion, did he give you the location, or even the area in Dallas where his second room was located? Mrs. Paine. No. In her testimony, (3H79-81) describing the search at 2515 W. Fifth St., Ruth Paine makes no mention whatsoever of giving the police Oswald’s telephone number. Ruth Paine 9H365 Mr. Jenner. Directing your attention to Commission Exhibit No. 402 which is your address book,...Is there anything on any of the entries which appear on those pages which relate to the Oswalds? Mrs. Paine. The one on the left is the police officer who picked up the address book. Mr. Jenner. Those are his initials and date that he picked it up? Mrs. Paine. I don't know who picked it up. And I didn't see it was gone. I was reading through Will Fritz's testimony before the Warren Commission in volume IV and a careful reading of his testimony leaves the impression that Fritz knew of the Beckley Street address before he dispatched officers to Irving. Mr. BALL. Some officer told you that he thought this man had a room on Beckley? Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. Mr. BALL. Had he been brought into the station by that time? Mr. FRITZ. He was at the station when we got there, you know. Mr. BALL. He was? Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; so then I talked to him and I ASKED HIM WHERE HIS ROOM WAS ON BECKLEY. Mr. BALL. Then you started to interrogate Oswald, did you? Mr. FRITZ. yes, sir. Mr. BALL. And you called him into your room? Mr. FRITZ Yes, sir. In other words, Fritz had the Beckley Street address before he ever started talking to Oswald. Fritz was in such a hurry to get something to hold Oswald on, that he dispatched his officers to Irving without a search warrant. Fritz, Sims, Boyd, and Decker all speak of a curious little encounter just after Fritz emerges from the TSBD. They have found the rifle and learned that Oswald lives in Irving. Fritz is all hot to trot. He's determined to go charging off to Irving taking Sims and Boyd with him. Just as he's about to head off, Decker sends word that he wants to talk to Fritz just a minute. What was the subject of that little conversation? None of them are asked by the WC, and none of them volunteer. Whatever it was, all of a sudden Fritz changes his mind, heads into the office, keeps Sims and Boyd with him, and sends other police officers to check out Irving. In the Arrest Report on Investigative Prisoner filed by M.M. McDonald against Lee Harvey Oswald as the murderer of President Kennedy and Officer Tippit. (Dallas Police ARchives, Box 1, Folder 3, Item# 17) at: http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box1.htm Now, without knowing when this Report was filled out, McDonald lists Oswald's arrest time as 1:40PM and gives his address as 1026 N. Beckley. I believe that McDonald is off by about 10 minutes on the arrest time, but it's interesting that he gives the Beckley St. address. If McDonald filled this out as soon as he got back to the station, I wonder where he got the Beckley St. address? I don't believe Oswald gave it to the police. When he was arrested and brought back to the station, he had two ID cards on him. One was for A.J. Hidell and one was for Lee Harvey Oswald. Detective Guy Rose told the Warren Commission that: Mr. ROSE. There were some people in the office from the Book Depository and we talked to a few of them and then in just a few minutes they brought in Lee Oswald and I talked to him for a few minutes? Mr. BALL. What did you say to him or did he say to you? Mr. ROSE. Well, the first thing I asked him was what his name was and he told me it was Hidell. Mr. BALL. Did he tell you it was Hidell? Mr. ROSE. Yes; he did. Mr. BALL. He didn't tell you it was Oswald? Mr. ROSE. No; he didn't, not right then--he did later. In a minute--I found two cards--I found a card that said "A. Hidell." And I found another card that said "Lee Oswald" on it, and I asked him which of the two was his correct name. He wouldn't tell me at the time, he just said, "You find out." And then in just a few minutes Captain Fritz came in and he told me to get two men and go to Irving and search his house. Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what his address was? Mr. ROSE. Yes; but from there, he wouldn't tell me--he just said, "You just find out." Mr. BALL. Now, did anybody ever tell you that his address was 1026 North Beckley? Mr. ROSE. Later they did--right then they didn't; no, sir. Mr. BALL. You didn't know it at that time? Mr. ROSE. No, sir; I didn't. When he was asked, "Which one are you", he responded, You figure it out". I don't think Oswald volunteered his address. In his testimony before the HSCA, Inspector Kelley was asked what investigation he had made into the background of Lee Harvey Oswald (vol. III p. 330). In the course of his reply, Kelley said, “The Dallas Police had some information on him and the State Department had some information in connection with his trips to Russia. The military was supplying information to our headquarters and it was being provided to me at Dallas.” Captain Fritz knew Oswald lived on Beckley before he started talking to him. The address didn’t come from Oswald and it didn’t come from any of the arresting officers. The Sheriff’s Deputies didn’t learn it until after the police had already arrived at Beckley. If Hosty can be believed, it didn’t come from the FBI. I believe it came from someone associated with military intelligence. Steve Thomas
  5. My apologies if this is already well known: Google Scholar: http://scholar.google.com/ about Google Scholar: http://scholar.google.com/scholar/about.html " Google Scholar enables you to search specifically for scholarly literature, including peer-reviewed papers, theses, books, preprints, abstracts and technical reports from all broad areas of research. Use Google Scholar to find articles from a wide variety of academic publishers, professional societies, preprint repositories and universities, as well as scholarly articles available across the web." Steve Thomas
  6. Tosh, You wrote: Part 3 - Conclusion When I later learned that Oswald had been arrested as the lone assassin, I remembered having met him on a number of previous occasions which were connected with intelligence training matters, first at Illusionary Warfare Training in Nagshead, North Carolina, then in Honolulu at a radar installation and at Oahu's Wheeler Air Force Base, then in Dallas at an Oak Cliff safe house on North Beckley Street run by Alpha 66's Hernandez group, who had worked out of Miami prior to the assassination. Do you remember if this Oak Cliff safe house on North Beckley was further north of Oswald's rooming house at 1026 N. Beckley, or if it was south of his rooming house? Steve Thomas
  7. Tosh, These assassins were a special breed. A hit and disappear team; a team drifting through that plaza much like a vapor. This was a good post. Steve Thomas
  8. Jim, The Italian OSS Operational Groups during WWII are an interesting group to follow as the OSS transformed itself into the CIA. I'll throw this out just for curiosity's sake. I don't know what to make of it myself. Have you ever heard of "Il Gladio?" Usually I do a pretty good job of noting where I get stuff, but in this case, I forgot to jot down just exactly where I found this. Likewise, the French police have been accused of cooperating within the Spanish state and of creating GAL (anti-terrorist liberation group) death squads in their war against the leftist and Basque separatists. Witnesses called upon to give evidence have stated that French police, right-wing extremists, police informers and former OAS (the French terrorist organisation opposed to Algerian independence) members assisted with GAL operations within France.19 The revelation of the OAS involvement puts another perspective upon the Algeria-related terrorist attacks within France and Algeria itself. The OAS connection to the fundamentalists of Algeria is not new. In 1961, Senior OAS Commander Jean-Jacques Sysini discussed with the CIA's Paris station officer the possibility of a Franco-Muslim alliance.20 The outcome, according to available material, is that the CIA-OAS-Muslim republic was cut short, for President Kennedy, on the advice of his political advisers, cancelled the covert assistance program before it could begin.21 However, after the assassination of Kennedy in 1963, it is known that the CIA's use of covert operation programs increased on a dramatic scale.22 There is no reason to conclude that the CIA did not take advantage of the situation to utilise their OAS and non-governmental Muslim assets. This would ensure that neither a French republic nor a Soviet-controlled government obtained control of the Algerian oil fields. The French have long accused American oil companies of having encouraged the USA's support of the OAS and Muslim rebels.23 The OAS, though, was not the only inbred resistance organisation of the era, for during the Algerian crisis another organisation came to be known. Like the OAS, it was comprised of individuals with anti-Soviet, pro-Catholic beliefs and the same desire to rid France of Charles de Gaulle. The organisation's name is not cited in the book, Target De Gaulle. However, from its listed connections to the Vatican and pro-Nazi activists, and its possession of detailed, accurate intelligence on the very inner workings of the de Gaulle Government, it is possible to surmise that the secret society cited was in fact Il Gladio.24 In 1990, Italian Prime Minister Giulio Andreotti briefed the Italian Parliament on a secret paramilitary organisation called Il Gladio (from the Latin, meaning "sword"). He explained that Gladio had been set up in 1956 and was run by the CIA to take precautions against Communist aggression. In particular, Gladio was tasked to reduce the influence of Communism in France and Italy (later, this would include Spain) via a "strategy of tension".25 Since this revelation, journalists have unearthed the meaning behind this term. It was Gladio's tactic to make use of right-wing mercenaries and Mafia hit-men to carry out attacks that were then blamed upon the left. These attacks include the Mafia's involvement in the Red Brigade's kidnap and murder of Italian Prime Minister Aldo Moro in 1978.26 The strategy was to utilise the citizens' fear to justify the greater power of the security forces. Gladio was also revealed to have strong ties to the former Nazi intelligence operators who, under the General Gehlen and Allen Dulles contract, were being recruited to help create America's post-war CIA.27 This would include the infamous Licio Gelli, a.k.a. "The Puppet Master" and head of the Vatican-Mafia Masonic Lodge, P2.28 It was Licio Gelli who helped to organise the "rat line" which was responsible for smuggling the Nazis out of Europe. Gelli's partner was Father Krujoslav Dragonovic, a Croatian Catholic priest and friend to Croatia's wartime leader, Dr Pavlic. While Gelli liaised with the respective intelligence agencies (which included those of America, Britain, Italy and the escaping Gestapo), Dragonovic negotiated with the Vatican for its assistance in the plan.29 For this service, Gelli and Dragonovic, as a norm, charged the fleeing Nazis 40 per cent of their wealth.30 However, Gestapo chief Klaus Barbie ("The Butcher of Lyon") was not charged, as the US Counter-Intelligence Corps picked up the tab as part of their recruitment of Barbie as an agent.31 In 1954, Gelli himself used the rat line and escaped to Argentina where he resided as a friend of Argentinian dictator General Juan Peron.32 No doubt Gelli was not lonely, for, in Argentina, Pavlic served as Peron's security adviser, while Klaus Barbie held a similar position in nearby Bolivia.33 In fact, all throughout South and Central America, the people have encountered the effects of these CIA imports. South America's legacy as home to some of the worst cases of state-induced terrorism owes much thanks to the CIA's involvement with P2. In Europe, P2 was/is suspected of being behind Fascist attacks carried out against the left, with the design to weaken people's faith in a socialist government.34 20. Plume, Christian and Pierre Demaret, Target De Gaulle, Corgi Books, 1974, p. 94. 24. Plume and Demaret, ibid., pp. 108-114. 25. Wheelwright, ibid., p. 124. 26. Ellingsen, Peter, "Italy in the Dock: Andreotti and the Godfather's Kiss", The Sydney Morning Herald, Spectrum, 30 September 1995. Italian PM Giulio Andreotti is currently standing trial for his involvement with the Mafia. David Yallop, in his book, In God's Name, also connects Andreotti to former Nazi and P2 Mafia boss, Licio Gelli. In his defence, Andreotti has called upon former UN Secretary-General (and believed P2 member) Javier Perez de Cuellar, and CFR member Henry Kissinger, as character witnesses. 27. The Chicago Tribune of 9 February 1945 released Walter Trohan's story of William Donovan's plans to initiate a postwar intelligence agency (the CIA), set up on the same designs and principles as the Gestapo (whom Donovan had been called upon to investigate and study)-"an agency quite willing to use psychological warfare and dirty tricks". In 1949, CIA Director Allen Dulles entered into a written contract with former German military intelligence head, General Reinhard Gehler. The contract permitted Gehler to conduct operations which included "political, economic and technological espionage" on behalf of the CIA. Gehler, in his memoirs, went so far as to say he taught the CIA all it knows. (Source: Jeffrey-Jones, Rhodri, The CIA and American Democracy, Yale University Press, Newhaven, USA, 1989, pp. 103-104.) 28. Il Gladio, BBC exposé, aired in New Zealand at 4.00 am in early June 1995. 29. Aarons, Mark and John Loftons, Ratlines, Heinemann, London, UK, 1991, p. 89. 30. Yallop, David, In God's Name, Corgi Books, London, UK, 1985 (reprinted 1993), p. 172. 31. Ibid. 32. Ibid. 33. Yallop, ibid. (in regard to Barbie); Aarons and Loftons, Ratlines, p. 85 (in regard to Pavlic). 34. Il Gladio, BBC exposé. Steve Thomas
  9. Wim, I believe there is something to the French Connection. I do too, which makes the case of PFC. Eugene Dinkin all the more interesting. Steve Thomas
  10. Shanet, Basically I want to know more about the European, Algerian and Fascist links.... I spent quite a bit of time reading about the OAS, the 1st. Foreign Legion Parachute Regiment, Algeria, Corsicans, etc. While it was facinating reading, I didn't find anything tangible that helped me answer this question. I did find an interesting thread leading back to a Paul Mondolini of Montreal. Here are a couple of things I found: From: Lets Roll (letsroll@meet-me-in-hell.com) Subject: The Strength of the Wolf This is the only article in this thread Newsgroups: alt.politics.immigration Date: 2004-06-20 01:02:13 PST http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/there...fm?id=698842004 THE STRENGTH OF THE WOLF by Douglas Valentine A warning to potential readers. If Valentine's account is compelling in its detail, the price is that the book is often close to unreadable. Try this paragraph about the Kennedy assassination for size: "It's almost as if [James Jesus] Angleton was a double agent, and if he was the 'mole' he was searching for, it's possible that SDECE agents working for the KGB may have sent an assassin into Dallas through Angleton's Brown-Castellani drug network, or through Paul Mondolini. If Angleton was a KGB mole, perhaps he used QJ/WIN (who could have been Mertz) to assassinate JFK, and programmed Lee Harvey Oswald as the unwitting patsy through the MKULTRA Program". Here in the Education Forum, there is a biography of author Steve Rivele A biography of Steve Rivele http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKrivele.htm Recently Rivele commented that: "I believe that Sarti was involved, but apparently I was wrong on the other two. If I were working on the case today, I'd look at Paul Mondoloni of Montreal... Two points I would add: I saw a documentary TV show last year about the KGB's investigation of the assassination, and was amazed to learn that they came to the same conclusion as me. Second, I was contacted two years ago by a former CIA agent (who worked in the mind control program among others), who told me that I was right about the assassination. Small comfort but better than nothing." Earlier this year in the alt.conspiracy.jfk newsgroup, I wrote: It seems to me that there are two trains of thought for the origin of a plot to kill John F. Kennedy. One line runs through the Mafia/CIA/Cuban exile connections of Santos Trafficante. The other runs through the Corsican Mafia connections of Antoine Guerini/Christian David as outlined be Steve Rivele and/or William Reymond. Lately, I have been wondering if there was some connection or intersecting point between these two. I got to wondering if it couldn't be found in Paul Mondolini who I believe I read was Antoine Guerini's adopted son. This is from a news article I read on the Internet concerning some Montreal mobster getting married. Remember that Michele Nicoli? told Steve Rivele that the assassins were flown to Montral after they killed JFK. QUEBEC AFFAIRS PETER BLACK "Singing for Their Supper" http://www.tomifobia.com/hubbub.html "Lucien Rivard was a Montreal hood who worked his way up the ranks to become a drug-ring operator for Paul Mondolini, one of the major capos in the city. At one point in his career Rivard ran a casino in Cuba for Mondolini before Castro came to power, and there are stories he ran a few guns to the island for the Cotronis. Rivard and Mondolini, according to one account, were associated with Santos Trafficante, the powerful mobster alleged to be involved with the CIA in plotting to get rid of Castro. This also brings up the possible connection between Rivard's friends and one Lee Harvey Oswald. Anyway, let's just say Rivard knew a lot of things that certain people would have preferred to keep secret. So, when a Montreal couple was busted in October, 1963, at the Texas border trying to smuggle heroin out of Mexico, alarm bells went off in mob circles when they fingered Rivard as their handler. Rivard was arrested in June, 1964, in Montreal by Canadian police and parked in Bordeaux jail awaiting extradition to the U.S." The author of this article does not say why or how Rivard's friends were connected to Lee Harvey Oswald. Steve Thomas In an interesting side note to the use of Corsican hitmen, there is this passage from William Harvey's handwritten notes on setting up the ZR/Rifle Program: William Harvey’s handwritten notes on setting up the ZR/Rifle Program From ajweberman’s Coup d’etat in America Nodule 0 http://www.weberman.com/nodules/nodule0.htm 8. Use nobody who has never dealt with criminals; otherwise will not be aware of pitfalls or consider factors such as freedom to travel, wanted lists, etc. Exclude organization criminals, those with record of arrests, those who have engaged in several types of crime. Corsicans recommended. Sicilians lead to Mafia. You might want to read: Plume, Christian and Pierre Demaret, Target De Gaulle, Corgi Books, 1974 Steve Thomas
  11. Pat, 8. “Black Dog Man” was probably an innocent bystander. Similarly, the purported appearance of Secret Service Agents on the knoll directly after the shooting may have an innocent explanation. Ah yes, but on the knoll is not the only location where SS Agents have been reported to have been present. Steve Thomas
  12. Antti, Mr. ARCE. Oh, I worked as a cook, short order cook and busboy, and just odd jobs at this Rubenstein place on Hall Rubenstein and Sons. Question: Does the name of this business have any relation to one Jacob Rubenstein, or family? I looked into this a little bit myself once. I posed the same question you did on another forum. I had someone write me back and say, " One of my good friends in Dallas checked her 1963 phone directory and found the following: Rubenstien Foods Inc. Main office: 1111 Hall, pho # TA6-6261 Pecan Plant Superintendent, 1200 Stiles, pho # TA3-8510 So far, I have not found any connection to the Rubenstein family we are all familiar with. Steve Thomas
  13. Larry, If you email me a FAX number I can dig it out and FAX it to you sometime this week... Thanks. It's 812-853-0509 I'll be leaving town Thursday morning. Could you get it to me by Wed afternoon? And, no, I'm sorry. I don't have your CD Thanks again, Steve
  14. This is a question for Larry Hancock. Could you post a roster of the 112th Military Intelligence Group circa 1963? I thought I had seen it on another Forum, but can't locate it right now. Thanks, Steve Thomas
  15. How did the police first learn that Oswald lived on Beckley St.?
  16. Greg, McDonald was far from the first to arrive at the TT - yet no cops went in until this LOWLY patrolman arrived - then let him take charge of the situation!!!??? Why? Because he had the plant weapon. My take on the situation has been that McDonald made a serious error in judgement. He saw the pistol in Oswald's waistban and made a grab for it. Oswald reacted by slugging him. The other policemen tried to cover up for McDonald's mistake. Again, that's just my take on it. BTW, I read somewhere (maybe Playboy's interview with Mark Lane) that McDonald and Tippit shared a locker at the station. Steve Thomas
  17. Greg, --->No mention of any attempted murder... no mention even of a struggle. He does not even say Oswald actually drew his gun... only that he "reached for it." Quite calmly and coolly, apparently. I have always taken it on faith that during his arrest at the Texas Theater, Lee Harvey Oswald took out his gun and attempted to shoot arresting Officer M.N. McDonald. This is based on accounts of an audible "snap" that was heard. Later, we read accounts that the only reason Oswald's attempted murder of McDonald didn't succeed because of a bent primer or a "misfire" I would like to contend that perhaps the "snap" that was heard was either the sound of something else, or was accidently caused by the officers seeing the gun and immediately reacting to take it away from Oswald and that Oswald did not attempt to shoot Officer McDonald. I say this for the following three reasons: 1) Here are the accounts of the arresting officers filed with Police Chief Curry on Decembers 2 - 5, 1963. They can be found in the DAllas Police Archives, Box 2, Folder# 7 http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box2.htm E.L. Cunningham: "When I reached the seating area on the main floor, several officers were in the process of disarming and handcuffing the suspect. ...I did not see anything that indicated that any more force was used than was absolutely necessary to effect the arrest". Paul Bentley: "Just as I entered the lower floor, I saw Patrolman McDonald fighting with this suspect. I saw this suspect pull a pistol from his shirt, so I went to Patrolman McDonald's aid immediately" Bob Carroll: "When I arrived at the lower floor, Lee Harvey Oswald was resisting vigorously"...At this time I observed a pistol with the muzzle pointed in my direction. I grabbed the pistol and stuck it in my belt..." Ray Hawkins: "The subject stood up and as Officer McDonald started to search him, he struck Officer McDonald in the face. The subject and Offcier McDonald began to fight and both fell down in the seats. Officer Walker and I ran toward the subject and grabbed him by his left arm. The subject had reached in his belt for a gun and Officer McDoanld was holding his right hand with the gun in it". T.A. Hutson: "As I entered the row of seats behind the suspect he jumped up and hit Officer McDonald in the face with his fist, Officer McDonald was in the seat next to the one in which the suspect was originally sitting, and the suspect was up out of his seat struggling with Officer McDonald. I reached over the back of the seats and placed my right arm around the suspect's neck and pulled him up on back of the seat. Officer C.T. WAlker came up and was struggling with the suspect's left hand, and as Officer McDonald struggled with with the suspect's right hand, he moved it to his waist and drew a pistol and as Officer McDonald tried to disarm the suspect, I heard the pistol snap". K.E. Lyon: "Enroute to the City Hall, Oswald refused to answer all questions. and he kept repeating, "Why am I being arrested? I know I was carrying a gun, but why else am I being arrested"? M.N. McDonald: "When I got within a foot of him, I told the suspect to get to his feet. He stood up immediately, bringing his hands up about shoulder high and saying, "Well it's over now". I was reaching for his waist and he struck me on the nose with his left hand. With his right hand, he reached for his waist and both our hands were on a pistol that was stuck in his belt under his shirt. We both fell into the seats struggling for the pistol. ... I managed to get my right hand on the pistol over the suspect's hand. I could feel his hand on the trigger. I then got a secure grip on the butt of the pistol. I jerked the pistol and as it was clearing the suspect's clothing and grip I heard the snap of the hammer and the pistol crossed over my left cheek, causing a four inch scratch". As you can see from reading these reports, at no time in the first 10 to 12 days following the assassination, did any of the arresting officers on the scene claim that Oswald tried to shoot M.N. McDonald. If the pistol did go off and cause a "snap" of the hammer falling into place, it was because McDonald jerked it out of Oswald's pants. 2) When questioned by Captain Fritz on the afternoon of November 22nd, Fritz did not accuse Oswald of trying to shoot Officer McDonald. Fritz (4H214) Mr. FRITZ. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley near where he lived and went by home and changed clothes and got his pistol and went to the show. I asked him why he took his pistol and he said, "Well, you know about a pistol; I just carried it." Let's see if I asked him anything else right that minute. That is just about it. Mr. BALL. Did you ask him if he killed Tippit? Mr. FRITZ. Sir? Mr. BALL. Did you ask him if he shot Tippit? Mr. FRITZ. Oh, yes. Mr. BALL. What did he say. Mr. FRITZ. He denied it---that he did not. The only thing he said he had done wrong, "The only law I violated was in the show; I hit the officer in the show; he hit me in the eye and I guess I deserved it." He said, "That is the only law I violated." He said, "That is the only thing I have done wrong." 3) If Oswald had attempted to shoot Officer McDonald, why were no charges of attempted murder filed as they were in the case of Governor Connally? I believe that the account of Oswald trying to shoot McDonald was invented after the fact. Steve Thomas
  18. Bobbie Hargis was the motorcycle officer who can be seen peering over the concrete wall at the top of the incline. Gary Mack tells me that I am wrong. It was Haygood who ran up the slope and can be seen peering back over the bridge looking down the railroad tracks. Steve Thomas
  19. Has anyone in here seen this document? AGENCY INFORMATION AGENCY : CIA RECORD NUMBER : 104-10010-10034 RECORDS SERIES : JFK AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 201-289248 DOCUMENT INFORMATION ORIGINATOR : CIA FROM : ROCCA, RAYMOND G., C/CI/R&A, CIA TO : ROCCA, RAYMOND, C/CI/R&A, CIA TITLE : [RESTRICTED] DATE : 03/01/1965 PAGES : 2 DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT SUBJECTS : WC; FBI AGENT LHO CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED RESTRICTIONS : 1A; 1B CURRENT STATUS : RELEASED WITH DELETIONS DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 06/21/1993 COMMENTS : OSW15:V56 1993.06.21.18:32:01:250310: I'm wondering why: 1) Raymond Rocca wrote this to himself and not "for the file"; and, 2) He wrote this in March of 1965 - over a year after Henry Wade flew to Washington to brief the members of the WC in January, 1964 that he had received information that Oswald had been on the FBI's payroll. Surely this had been debunked by official Washington by 1965; and, 3) The title's restricted, and it was only released "with deletions." Steve Thomas
  20. Larry, Also there is some other commentary somewhere on that call, perhaps in his polygraphy test but certainly somewhere in which he expounds a bit more and says that one of the reasons for the call was that he was thinking of sending Gruber one of his dogs. Alex Gruber's testimony before the HSCA is volume IX beginning on page 431 (page 439 in the online version). http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk..._Vol9_0220a.htm They refer to FBI interviews of Gruber in 1963 and 1964, but I don't spot them right away in the WC index of names. It's interesting that the HSCA notes that a letter Gruber sent Ruby several months after the shooting was missing from the Dallas Police Department files. Steve Thomas
  21. Greg wrote: John, Gruber was ostensibly in a similar line of work to Ruby's brothers... selling bic-a-brac and household wares. He lived in Los Angeles. Goldstein was from San Fran, but was a bookie. Ruby had worked for him when he moved to that city in the '30's. Shore worked for Reprise Records in Los Angeles. I think Tonahill most likely misremembered which city the person was from, or maybe Shore was temporarily in San Fran at the time. We know from his telephone calls, that Ruby knew both Shore and Goldstein. Calls made from Jack Ruby's telephone Sorted by State 9/26/63 - 11/22/63 http://www.jmasland.com/ruby_telephone_state.htm State City Date Time Duration Person Calling Person Called Number Called CA Los Angeles 10/26/63 22:17 3 Unknown Mike Shore BR 2-9836 CA San Francisco 11/12/63 22:15 10 Unknown Frankie Goldstein JU 7-7674 Steve Thomas
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