Roger DeLaria

I remember reading somewhere (can't for the life of me remember where) that when the body was exhumed, they noticed the bottom of the concrete vault the casket was in was broken, and something not right about the head. The idea being when "they" went to remove the body, they tried raising the vault with a small crane/lift or something, and the vault being too heavy snapped the line and the concrete broke.

I recently acquired a copy of "The Case Of General Edwin A. Walker" by Kent and Phoebe Courtney. On the inside of the front cover, there is a sticker with the name Freedom Club, out of Los Angeles, who probably distributed the copies in that area. I couldn't find any information on this organization, but I imagine there were many such groups around the country.

6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Jason,

In my reading, this memo from J. Edgar Hoover about Harry Dean dated four days after the JFK assassination intends to sharply distance the FBI from Harry Dean.

In other words, the FBI was preparing to disavow anything that Harry Dean might say about the JFK Assassination.

Harry claims that the Chicago FBI had accepted data about the J26M and the FPCC for months 1960-1961, and I expect to find FBI records confirming this.

After the JFK Assassination, however, the FBI evidently insisted on disavowing any willing contact between the FBI and Harry Dean.

This memo by J. Edgar Hoover himself apparently confirms my observation.

Hoover -- in a post-assassination panic -- wants Harry Dean to stop linking himself to the FBI -- and he sends two FBI agents out to convince Harry.

Because Harry was a genuine information provider to the Chicago FBI (although unpaid) for such a long time -- this is more complicated that it may appear at first glance.   Please keep digging, Jason.  I'm confident that Harry's account will be confirmed.

Best regards,
--Paul Trejo

Sounds like something I've heard many times, when an intelligence organization is working with an individual in some capacity, official/unofficial, paid/unpaid, will say, "If you get caught, or something comes up, we'll deny we know you, no matter what."

8 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

He was following orders, as he'd done for years.

What was he specifically told the operation was? What was he told his purpose/objective was? I suppose only Oswald would know that, and whoever told him. He was clearly told some kind of fairy tale.

2 hours ago, Douglas Caddy said:

Tommy Reynolds posted the following on Facebook today:

"Shortly before his death in 1975, John Mar­tino con­fessed to a Miami News­day reporter, John Cum­mings, that he had been guilty of spread­ing false sto­ries impli­cat­ing Lee Har­vey Oswald in the assas­si­na­tion of John F. Kennedy. He claimed that two of the gun­men were Cuban exiles. It is believed the two men were Her­mino Diaz Gar­cia and Vir­gilio Gon­za­lez. Cum­mings added: “He told me he’d been part of the assas­si­na­tion of Kennedy. He wasn’t in Dal­las pulling a... trig­ger, but he was involved. He implied that his role was deliv­er­ing money, facil­i­tat­ing things.… He asked me not to write it while he was alive.”

Fred Claasen also told the House Select Com­mit­tee on Assas­si­na­tions what he knew about his busi­ness partner’s involve­ment in the case. He claimed John Mar­tino told him: “The anti-Castro peo­ple put Oswald together. Oswald didn’t know who he was work­ing for – he was just igno­rant of who was really putting him together. Oswald was to meet his con­tact at the Texas The­atre. They were to meet Oswald in the the­atre, and get him out of the coun­try, then elim­i­nate him. Oswald made a mis­take… There was no way we could get to him. They had Ruby kill him.”

Flo­rence Mar­tino at first refused to cor­rob­o­rate the story. How­ever, in 1994 she told Anthony Sum­mers that her hus­band said to her on the morn­ing of 22nd Novem­ber, 1963: “Flo, they’re going to kill him (Kennedy). They’re going to kill him when he gets to Texas.”

 

What I want to know is, what was Oswald told he was participating in? What did he think he was actually doing at the TSBD?

Any ideas on that Doug?

11 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Roger,

Perhaps this is beating a dead horse -- but one variable is that the Ambassador was Polish, and so his English was broken -- and he had an accent.

Does anybody know if the English name "John" may be pronounced in Polish something like, "Jim?"

Regards,
--Paul

Here are pronunciations of various letters in polish. J's are pronounced like y in yes. Pronounced Jan. Nothing unusual here, I think.

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Polish/Polish_pronunciation

http://www.babynamespedia.com/pronounce/John

I was thinking J.B. Society, but I don't see JB sounding like MB.

Leander Perez is another radical figure I'm starting to read about a bit. I recently acquired The book Leander Perez: Boss of the Delta, but haven't read it yet. He clearly had no love lost for Kennedy:

On the presidential level, Perez, as chair of the Democratic State Central Committee, attempted to deny Louisiana’s electoral votes to liberal candidates. In 1960 he created a slate of unpledged electors in defiance of Louisiana’s vote for John F. Kennedy. In 1964 he backed George Wallace, until the Alabama governor withdrew in favor of Republican Barry Goldwater, who carried Louisiana. In 1968 Perez backed Wallace, who won Louisiana. He donated large sums to conservative candidates, campaigning chiefly in Louisiana. In state and national elections, Plaquemines cast few votes, but Perez could deliver them in a bloc. There was virtual unanimity in the parishwide vote—a combination of respect for Perez and voter fraud.

http://www.knowlouisiana.org/entry/leander-perez

This is another interesting tidbit from HSCA Deposition of Hemming I came across.

The Operation 40 group was the intended new government for Cuba -- 
they were sponsored by Carlos Marcello and Leander Perez (pp 130-131).

http://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/hsca/unpub_testimony/pdf/Hemming_3-21-78.pdf

Guy Banister, Leander Perez, and Jim Garrison

http://www.jfk-online.com/jpsgblpjg.html

William F. Buckley Jr. interview with Leander Perez

3 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Hi Roger,

I suppose anything is possible: I personally do not see it as plausible that the hard right like Hunt and Walker can work with the right coast intelligentsia they despise - the families Rockefeller, Dulles & Bush, Ivy League cliques, high powered lawyers, nor the remnants of Bill Donovan's recruits from Wall Street and Harvard.

This is asking Trump Nation to work with George Bush.  It's asking the redneck Alabama KKK to work with a bunch of pansy pretty boys from Yale in argyle sweaters.

Walker and Hunt want to off these guys who love the UN and globalism - not work with them.  IMO.

 

regards

 

Jason

Jason,

I can certainly see your points, they may be true. I think it's also possible that one poker player doesn't know the identity of the other players, and doesn't want or need to know. Especially if representatives and layers are used. Self preservation and plausible deniability. No connecting points. But ultimately, I suppose anything is possible.

Cheers,

Roger

1 hour ago, Jason Ward said:

You may be right, Roger.

However, just to elucidate discussion, I have to say from my readings there is a conflict so severe between [who I presume are] the members of your octagonal table that the idea of them working together is far-fetched, IMO.   Basically, Walker thinks guys like the Bushes, the East Coast Establishment, and the whole preppy club of CIA - William F. Buckely - Rockefeller Foundation types are equivalent to Kennedy.   Walker wouldn't have a seat at the table with the CIA because Walker sees the CIA as part of the problem - Walker would be totally fine with offing the head of the CIA or any other federal agency, in my view.   

Walker can't stand the CIA-Bush types for all the same reasons Trump can't stand the CIA-Bush types.   Trump supporters are the ideological grandchildren of Walker's movement, and as Charlottesville indicates, the worst of them aren't descendants of Walker's ideas, they are still practicing Walker's ideas.

I agree it's plausible Walker is exercising his military contacts in some way.   Much like my objection to the CIA-did-it ideas, I sense that any serving member of the US military is unlikely to get involved in the assassination for fear of prison and capital punishment.   With that opinion in mind, I admit that some high ranking Pentagon types passing information and discreet moral support to the murderers is a defensible belief, although for the moment I am indifferent on this question.

 

regards

 

Jason

Good discussion, Jason.

I can certainly see the conflict that you're talking about. Would a shared, common goal with the desired result be enough to overcome that conflict? 

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

You think the coup failed because Cuba survived? I think the coup was very successful because the 'traitor' in the White House was murdered. I have no doubts it was the Radical Right - I never did. Just not General Walker at the top of the pyramid. Involved in logistical support on the ground in Dallas? Perhaps. Providing assassins from the Minutemen? Very unlikely the assassins themselves were Americans. The clues that JFK was killed by the Right have always been right there in front of us. 

This is pretty close to how I feel. I think the conspirators' table has more than a few sides, maybe like an octagon.

I've started looking at the Radical Right more closely. I have no problem with General Walker and the Radical Right having a place at the table. 

One of the many things I found interesting so far in reading Dallas 1963 was when Mayor Earle Cabell personally greeted Edwin Walker back to Dallas after Walker had been relieved of his duty. Like minds? Kindred souls?

A couple of images from this article:

https://extranewsfeed.com/back-and-to-the-left-c935c75205a

On 9/20/2017 at 6:25 PM, Jason Ward said:

Hi Roger, thanks for the reply.

As for point 1 - I don't see any of the guys you mention as anticipating life drastically improves for them when Kennedy is gone; especially when weighed against the risks of prison/the electric chair/the destruction of the CIA .... if they are caught.   What improves for these guys so much after 22Nov that it's worth the risk of assassinating a president?

Jason

This is my own subjective opinion, but I don't necessarily think they would see life improving per se; I see them as cowboys doing a job that was brought to them, source immaterial and unknown, and getting paid well and congratulating themselves on pulling off the ultimate op. It is a risky job for sure, but that's where I see tradecraft, cover & deception, and having a patsy to throw under the bus for the public all coming into play. Obscure ultimately who paid handsomely for the bullets. Nothing to lead back to the source. That doesn't mean the CIA was the source of the contract and paid for the bullets, I don't believe that. I see the CIA faction more on the operational side.

17 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

That's a reasonable idea.

1. What does your faction look like, who's in it?

2. What is the benefit they expect to gain by killing Kennedy?

 

Jason

1.This is a bit fluid and subject to change.  Ed Lansdale, William Harvey, David Atlee Phillips, David Morales, E. Howard Hunt, each with their respective assets, contractors, etc., all being very compartmentalized. Even though he was technically out, I think Allen Dulles had foreknowledge(maybe not operationall details), and Richard Helms(although I'm not sure what he knew).

2.I think the faction had major ideological differences, maybe some revenge, financial compensation.

Just as an agent does a job that a client brings to them, I think that's how a faction within the CIA would work, operating on another's behalf.

25 minutes ago, Jason Ward said:

Of course, the adventurers, contractors, and wanna-be types hanging around the CIA may be involved - but I don't see proof or motive of any CIA organizational effort to kill Kennedy.

I don't think the CIA as an organization was involved, but a faction/s within the CIA, and their various assets, contractors, etc., probably were in a very compartmentalized manner.

Speaking of Iran-Contra, I believe Oliver North modeled himself after Lansdale, and called himself, "Lansdalian".

I don't remember the years, but didn't Lansdale manage to move 1 million+ vietnamese from the north to the south, to create a whole bunch of chaos? I don't suppose the program has mentioned any of that.

16 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Paul, 

Did I come up with my own Radical Right CT?  I didn't mean to, and no I haven't read Hosty's book.

I believe the case for the Radical Right CT is more persuasive than any other for a few reasons:

Walker has non-public knowledge of Oswald as shown by his press leaks before the famous letter is found in the stuff from Ruth Paine's re: the 10 April shooting.  The Martin film goes even further.  The film establishes a connection between Walker and the New Orleans cell.   Obviously both Oswald and Walker know in advance that Walker's pal Carlos Bringuier will incite a scuffle on Canal St., which is part of a successful effort to make Oswald into a media-confirmed communist.

(Strangely Oswald's letter in the Paine materials is an essential pillar of the 'proof' she is CIA.   We can tell feom Walker's WC testimomy that WC attorney Liebeler determined in 64 that this letter was preceded by Walker's monumentally significant leaks, meaning that unless Walker is in the CIA, Ruth Paine is certainly NOT in the CIA.)

The Radical Right has stated motive and anticipated benefits from Kennedy's death.   No other CT provides both motive and benefits without a lot of assumption and conjecture unsupported by testimony or documents.

Garrison attributed the assassination to the Right, but obviously got scared or threatened.  I suspect Marcello had something to do with this.   Garrison thereafter hooks up with Mark Lane and the conventional CIA theory.  Why do you think Garrison backed off the Right?

With all that said, and I'm almost finished with Caufield's book, I can't crown Walker the author of the assassination versus any of a half dozen others who also want segregation now and segregation forever, or a redux of McCarthyism, or an end to the UN.

I hope the upcoming document release settles all this.

 

Jason

I like a lot of what you said here , Jason. It will be interesting to see what the upcoming documents show. I'm starting to look at the radical right a lot more and incorporate them into the mix.

I read Caufield's book last year and have some others on deck to look at and consider.

6 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Thanks, Roger.

It seems to me that the hardcore Right Wing really hated JFK and the worst of them truly wanted the president dead.  The scary part is that you can still hear much of the same rhetoric from the same quarters today.  I don't see this same level of passionate disgust in the CIA or Cubans, do you?

 

Jason

I'm sure there was passionate disgust toward JFK from some in the CIA, just as from others. The Agency is not one to be overt and advertise, so pinning anything to them can be real hard, I think.

What I found interesting is that Congressman Alger seemed to be a pipeline to Washington for the radical right, and would bring their concerns to DC.

21 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Hi Roger,

I haven't studied much about Criswell but Hargis is really quite disturbing.   How does he get millions of followers and 200+ TV stations to broadcast his show?   How rich is he?    I'm about to start Dallas 1963 in a few days....  I'm aghast that some substantial portion of America in the late 1950s and early 1960s is only about one or two steps away from Nazi Germany in terms of racial beliefs and passionate right-wing violence in service of nationalism.

Jason

 

 

I'm just learning about these guys, and what I've seen so far is pretty scary. Just the level of hate coming from them is incredible. During his 1960 campaign stop in Dallas, Nixon's allies setting up his visit were Reverend Criswell, Ted Dealey, Congressman Bruce Alger, and Carr P. Collins. Quite a group there. 

Page on Hargis.

http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKhargis.htm

This is about the 1964 election, but has many of the same characters, and is still pretty interesting.

https://bethelatwar.org/the-politics-of-war-presidential-elections-at-bethel-college-1964-1972/

I've recently started reading Dallas 1963,  about the radical right climate in Dallas at the time. What strikes me is how powerful and influential preachers like W.A. Criswell and Billy James Hargis seemed to be. H.L. Hunt was a big supporter of Criswell's and a member of his church.

This won't add any light to this topic, but I found it interesting nonetheless. 

From Simkin's 2nd post above:

"On his return to the United States in 1948 Lansdale became a lecturer at the Strategic Intelligence School in Colorado. However, in 1950, Elpidio Quirino, the president of the Philippines, requested Lansdale's help in his fight against the communist insurrection taking place in his country."

The Strategic Intelligence School mentioned here, was located at the old Lowry Air Base, which is about a mile from my house. Most of it is long gone, except for a few remaining buildings which have been repurposed in a mixed use development. The Wings Over The Rockies air museum is located there as well.

Jim,

Regarding your #2 from above:

2.) The Mexico City maze which threw much of official Washington into a CYA mode when they learned that Oswald had met with Kostikov down there,--which we know today almost certainly did not happen.  And BTW, Garrison also predicted that when he wrote to Lou Ivon in early 1968 that the more he looked at Mexico City, the more he thought it was the key to the crime.  Which is what i have come to think also.

Why and how do you think Mexico City is the key to the crime? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with that, I just want to understand.

Looks pretty good, I'm interested in seeing it. I wonder what version of LBJ we're going to get. The Phil Nelson version, or the Doris Kearns Goodwin version? I have a good idea.

21 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Great YouTube evidence, thanks.   I just got the book Dallas 1963 on this topic.

You're welcome. I have the Dallas 1963 book as well.