Jim Hargrove

Jeremy Bojczuk pleads his case Mr. Bojczuk continues his obvious plan to discuss only the mastoidectomy and to ignore all the other evidence I have asked him dozens of times to consider. He pretends all the other evidence is a “distraction” and will only discuss the evidence he feels comfortable with—the mastoidectomy. Can you imagine making this argument in a court of law? Let’s see.... MR. BOJCZUK. Your honor, the defendant clearly killed Mr. Oswald by stabbing him in the head near the ear with an ice pick. JUDGE. How do we know that, Mr. B? MR. BOJCZUK. Because, your honor, we have a report from the Federal Bureau of Investigation saying Mr. Oswald had a hole in his left mastoid process. JUDGE. But, Mr. B, the defense has demonstrated convincing evidence that, on many occasions, the FBI has falsified evidence in this very case about Mr. Oswald. MR. BOJCZUK. That’s irrelevant, you honor! JUDGE. Why is that? MR. BOJCZUK. Well, uh, um, because it hurts our case and everyone knows our case is great! JUDGE: That may be, but the defense also states that Mr. Oswald is not really dead, that the defendant actually killed someone who looked like him. If that is true, you will need to write new charges and pursue a new trial. MR. BOJCZUK. It is not true, your honor. There was only one Oswald! Case closed! JUDGE. That’s not what the defense says. It has offered the court dozens of pieces of evidence showing that there were two different young men using the identity of Oswald. MR. BOJCZUK. That’s absurd, your honor. There was only one Oswald. JUDGE. Perhaps if we examine the evidence in detail, you can show that it is absurd. MR. BOJCZUK. But… but... I’ve looked at all of it and I can’t prove it is absurd. Other people can, though. Have you heard about these other people? JUDGE. All that matters to the court is the evidence presented here, in this forum. MR. BOJCZUK. But I refuse to look at any other evidence. Other evidence is just a distraction. The defense is just telling the court to “Look over there” and not accept the FBI report and the document it describes. JUDGE. Because the defense has offered compelling evidence that the FBI fabricated other evidence in this case, the court will examine ALL the evidence. MR. BOJCZUK. Objection, your honor. We can’t look at all the evidence. It’s just too… too… icky! JUDGE. You wish to ignore all the other evidence? MR. BOJCZUK. We have to your honor. Didn’t I already say how icky it is? JUDGE: You’ve been saying that for years, Mr. B. The court rules that the only fair way to proceed is to examine all the evidence. MR. BOJCZUK. But, your honor, have you seen the FBI report?

Ah, but did you ever seriously expect to find a U.S. government document indicating in any way that Oswald was an agent of the U.S.? If it ever existed before the assassination of JFK, it certainly wouldn't have existed long after. To state the obvious though, even the official cover story sounds as much like a spy saga as I can conjure. You know, the one about the Marine Corps radar operator who worked near American U-2 planes in Japan, who then “defected” to Russia and there said in the American embassy in Moscow that he would give away everything he knew to the Soviets, and who, a couple of years later and after Francis Gary Powers’ U-2 plane was shot down by the Russians, was then loaned the money to return home without penalty. Really! I doubt we'll ever find a document ‘splaining that, but it sure seems obvious that is what happened. (Powers, of course, publicly blamed Oswald for his shoot down, but for reasons that I won't go into now, Oswald couldn't have had anything to do with it.)

Bill, Thank you for that stipulation. Foreign language instructor Mathias Baumann stated on this forum that, in his opinion, obtaining Oswald’s tested proficiency in Russian would require, in a language less difficult than Russian, “80 to 120 individual (one-on-one) lessons (a lesson being 45 minutes) or 400 lessons of a group course to reach this level in the German language (provided that you already know the Roman Alphabet). These numbers do not include the time you need for homework, mind you.” And of course, Mr. Baumann’s estimates did not include time to become familiar with the Cyrillic alphabet, extensively different from our own. Aren’t you curious about how Oswald obtained that knowledge of Russian? If he obtained it in the Marine Corps, why was he given this extensive training if not to be a spy in Russia? If he acquired his Russian abilities earlier, as a child, what does this say about our current understanding of the biography of “Lee Harvey Oswald?” Also, as Dr. Norwood pointed out in his Russian Fluency article, it should be noted that of the numerous Marines stationed at the Santa Ana MACS 9 facility who indicated Oswald had knowledge of Russian, James Anthony Botelho said that “Oswald subscribed to a newspaper printed in Russian, which I believe he said was published in San Francisco.” How many Russian-language newspapers do you supposed were published in San Francisco in 1959? I can’t prove it, but my guess is there was only one, and it was this one: Note that, in the upper right corner of page 1 of the 2007 edition shown above, the Russian-language paper billed itself as a “RUSSIAN NATIONAL ANTICOMMUNIST NEWSPAPER SINCE AUGUST 5, 1921.” So it was clearly in existence in 1959 when Oswald probably subscribed to it. Can anyone name another San Francisco paper published in Russian in 1959? The burning question then becomes, why would an alleged Marine Corps communist sympathizer like Oswald subscribe to an anti-communist Russian-language newspaper? Was he really what he was pretending to be?

Now that Mr. Bojczuk FINALLY presents some evidence, I’d be happy to examine his points one by one: This report is clearly based on a fraudulent document. Examples of other fraudulent FBI reports abound in this case. Some of the most egregious examples of false FBI reports were examined some years ago by Gil Jesus, who compiled this 3 minute YouTube video proving how the FBI lied in its reports about three Dealey Plaza witnesses to the assassination. THE FBI LIED Other examples that we’ve often cited as FBI frauds are the 1958 IRS forms which do not include income from “Oswald’s” then-current employer, the U.S. Marine Corps, and the Magic Postal Money Order® for the Magic Rifle®, which had no bank endorsements at all, which were requited by Postal regulations. The exhumation merely proved that the Russian-speaking Lee HARVEY Oswald, the man killed by Jack Ruby, indeed had a mastoidectomy when he was young. Both Oswalds were in the Marines. This refers to the Russian-speaking Oswald killed by Jack Ruby.I’m so glad Mr. Bojczuk brings up Renatus Hartogs, because Hartogs clearly interviewed the Russian-speaking Lee HARVEY Oswald, who had the mastoidectomy. But the FBI went to extraordinary efforts to hide that fact. Here is the background: In 1953 Lee HARVEY Oswald was sent to Youth House for habitual truancy from a NYC school. Documents collected by the FBI and published by the Warren Commission seemed to say that Youth House personnel saw this Oswald as a “well-built” and “well-developed” boy. But this was an invention of the FBI. Both Dr. Milton Kurian and Dr. Renatus Hartogs of Youth House said later that the Oswald they met was a slight, underdeveloped kid. Dr. Kurian said the Oswald he met (HARVEY) was no more that 4’ 6” or 4’ 8” tall, even though NYC records made less than a month later would indicate Oswald’s height as 5’ 4 1/2” tall (that was Lee). In a letter to Jackie Kennedy written in early February 1964, Dr. Kurian described Oswald as a “slender, underdeveloped boy.” Dr. Renatus Hartogs, Milton Kurian’s associate at Youth House, also described little Harvey in sharp contrast to the reports the FBI produced. Dr. Hartogs said that the Oswald he met was a “slender, dark-haired boy” with “an underfed look, reminiscent of the starved children I had seen in concentration camps.” The size difference between the two Oswalds decreased in the decade between Harvey’s Youth House appearance and the assassination, but it continued for the whole time. When LEE Harvey Oswald was was released from the Marine Corps, his height was 71” (5’ 11”) and his weight was 150 lbs. But on a slab in the Dallas morgue, Lee HARVEY Oswald’s height was just 69” (5’ 9”). These were measurements made by medical professionals, not casual observers. Both Oswalds were in the Marines. This refers to the Russian-speaking Oswald killed by Jack Ruby. Again, this is a reference to Russian-speaking Lee HARVEY Oswald, who had the mastoidectomy. Isn’t it amazing that Mr. Bojczuk is clearly afraid to debate any other H&L evidence except the mastoidectomy. Now that he has FINALLY presented his specific questions, and I have answered them just a couple of hours after he first presented them, will he go on to answer mine? I'll ask him, for the 15th time now, to finally debate here the following issues. Or will he just say, as always, that someone else has successfully debunked these points and hide behind a flurry of links? None of the issues below are debunked by any of the links Mr. Bojczuk has previously provided. For the fall semester of the 1953-54 school year, one Oswald attended Beauregard JHS in New Orleans for 89 school days while the other was enrolled in Public School 44 in New York City, where he was present for 62 full days and 5 half days, was absent 3 full days and 8 half days, for a total accounting of 78 days. For the next semester, one Oswald was at Beauregard JHS in New Orleans while the other Oswald attended Stripling School in Texas. The Social Security Administration did not include ANY of “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” teen-aged employment income in his “Lifetime Earnings Report” indicating in a cover letter it was including “Copies of three pages of the Warren Commission Report re employment of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to service in the Marine Corps.” One Oswald departed for Taiwan aboard the USS Skagit on Sept. 14, 1958 and was stationed in Ping Tung, Taiwan on Oct. 6, 1958, at the very same time the other Oswald was being treated for venereal disease at Atsugi, Japan, nearly 1500 miles away. One Oswald appeared at the Bolton Ford dealership in New Orleans while the other was in the Soviet Union. One Oswald had a driver’s license and was seen by many witnesses driving a car, and the other Oswald could not drive. On November 22, 1963, one Oswald left the Texas School Book Depository on a bus and then a taxi, and the other left in a Nash Rambler.

Dr. Norwood knows a great deal more about Oswald's Russian language skills than he has presented here, and so I'd just like to add a few more details. According to the 1964 testimony of Lt. Col. Allison G. Folsom, Lee Harvey Oswald answered four more questions right than wrong in a Russian language exam administered to him while he was still in the Marines. The overall score was rated “poor,” which is the same rating he was given in a series of tests including English reading and vocabulary. Before ever setting foot in the Soviet Union, Oswald scored as well in a Russian-language exam as he did in tests of his English. Are we to believe this was merely because he was “motivated” to teach himself Russian? A few years ago, a professional English/German foreign language instructor named Mathias Baumann posted on this forum about Oswald’s remarkable command of the Russian language. Here’s what Mathias wrote: I'm not yet convinced of the two Oswalds theory, but I think the question how Oswald learned Russian so quickly does merit some serious consideration. First of all I asked myself: How difficult was the test Oswald took? So I did some googling on U.S. Military language tests and I found this bit of information: "People wishing to work as military language analysts are required to maintain at least L2/R2 proficiency." Source: https://www.german-way.com/levels-of-language-proficiency-my-life-in-germany/ L2/R2 is the level of an advanced beginner, which I think roughly equates to the A2 level of the Common European Framework (CEF). You need to take on average 80 to 120 individual (one-on-one) lessons (a lesson being 45 minutes) or 400 lessons of a group course to reach this level in the German language (provided that you already know the Roman Alphabet). These numbers do not include the time you need for homework, mind you. And Russian is even more difficult than German. It's considered a level 3 language (German is level 2): https://www.thebalance.com/defense-language-aptitude-battery-3332702 So considering Oswald was of average intelligence I estimate he would've needed at least somewhere between 100 to 200 lessons of instruction plus about the same amount of time to prepare for the lessons in order to pass the Marine Corps test. And that is a low and optimistic estimate. But maybe Oswald was highly intelligent and able to learn foreign languages more quickly than others? I took a look at his school career. It turns out he was rather intelligent: Lee scored an IQ of 118 on the Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children. According to Sokolow, this indicated a "present intellectual functioning in the upper range of bright normal intelligence." 67 Sokolow said that although Lee was "presumably disinterested in school subjects he operates on a much higher than average level." 68 On the Monroe Silent Reading Test, Lee's score indicated no retardation in reading speed and comprehension; he had better than average ability in arithmetical reasoning for his age group. 69 Source: https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter-7.html#newyork But I found no evidence that he ever learned a foreign language at school, so I presume he was unfamiliar with the necessary techniques. On the other hand Nelson Delgado is supposed to have taught Oswald Spanish, which might indicate that Oswald learned languages quickly. But the important point here is that he had an instructor - Delgado. Language is all about communication, so without an interlocutor it is very hard to learn a language, because actual practice is an integral part of the whole process. So my conclusion is that Oswald would not have passed the test without intensive regular instruction. This link is also very interesting: http://www.dliflc.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Generic-Fam-Guide-MC-CBu-updated.pdf The target level of foreign language tests in the US military is L5/R5. So if Oswald got about 50 percent of the questions right, that means he reached level L2/R2. And without instruction that is EXTREMELY difficult, especially considering the difficulty of Russian. I'm sure he received extensive training. Here's an image of a Russian language newspaper printed in San Francisco that is probably similar to the one Oswald reportedly read in the Marine corps while stationed in California. Can you imagine teaching yourself to read, write, and speak this language without any formal instruction? It seems to me there are only two possible explanations for Oswald's Russian-language ability before he ever travelled to Russia. The first is that he had extensive training in Russian--suggesting he was being trained as a spy for the Russian assignment coming up--or second, that he learned Russian as a youngster, which is what John Armstrong, James Norwood, and quite a few others believe, including me.

From James Douglass's JFK and the Unspeakable: Butch Burroughs, who witnessed Oswald’s arrest, startled me in his interview by saying he saw a second arrest occur in the Texas Theater only “three or four minutes later.”[444] He said the Dallas Police then arrested “an Oswald lookalike.” Burroughs said the second man “looked almost like Oswald, like he was his brother or something.”[445] When I questioned the comparison by asking, “Could you see the second man as well as you could see Oswald?” he said, “Yes, I could see both of them. They looked alike.”[446] After the officers half-carried and half-dragged Oswald to the police car in front of the theater, within a space of three or four minutes, Burroughs saw the second Oswald placed under arrest and handcuffed. The Oswald look-alike, however, was taken by police not out the front but out the back of the theater.[447] What happened next we can learn from another neglected witness, Bernard Haire.[448] Bernard J. Haire was the owner of Bernie’s Hobby House, just two doors east of the Texas Theater. Haire went outside his store when he saw police cars congregating in front of the theater.[449] When he couldn’t see what was happening because of the crowd, he went back through his store into the alley out back. It, too, was full of police cars, but there were fewer spectators. Haire walked up the alley. When he stopped opposite the rear door of the theater, he witnessed what he would think for decades was the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald. “Police brought a young white man out,” Haire told an interviewer. “The man was dressed in a pullover shirt and slacks. He seemed to be flushed, as if he’d been in a struggle. Police put the man in a police car and drove off.”[450] When Haire was told in 1987 that Lee Harvey Oswald had been brought out the front of the theater by police, he was shocked. “I don’t know who I saw arrested,” he said in bewilderment.[451] Butch Burroughs and Bernard Haire are complementary witnesses. From their perspectives both inside and outside the Texas Theater, they saw an Oswald double arrested and taken to a police car in the back alley only minutes after the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald. Burroughs’s and Haire’s independent, converging testimonies provide critical insight into the mechanics of the plot. In a comprehensive intelligence scenario for Kennedy’s and Tippit’s murders, the plan culminated in Oswald’s Friday arrest and Sunday murder (probably a fallback from his being set up to be killed in the Texas Theater by the police). There is a hint of the second Oswald’s arrest in the Dallas police records. According to the Dallas Police Department’s official Homicide Report on J. D. Tippit, “Suspect was later arrested in the balcony of the Texas theatre at 231 W. Jefferson.”[452] Dallas Police detective L. D. Stringfellow also reported to Captain W. P. Gannaway, “Lee Harvey Oswald was arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater.”[453] NOTES: 444. Author’s interview of Burroughs, July 16, 2007. Butch Burroughs is a man of few words. When asked a question, he answers exactly what he is asked. Burroughs told me no one had ever asked him before about a second arrest in the Texas Theater. In response to my question, “Now you didn’t see anybody else [besides Oswald] get arrested that day, did you?” he answered, “Yes, there was a lookalike—an Oswald lookalike.” In response to further questions, he described the second arrest, that of the “Oswald lookalike.” Ibid. Because Butch Burroughs saw neither Oswald nor his lookalike enter the Texas Theater, each must have gone directly up the balcony stairs on entering. Oswald crossed the balcony and came down the stairs on the far side of the lobby. There he entered the orchestra seats and began his seat-hopping, in apparent search of a contact. His lookalike sneaked into the theater at 1:45 P.M. and, like Oswald, went immediately up the balcony stairs. By the time Burroughs witnessed the Oswald double’s arrest, he had also come down the balcony stairs on the far side of the lobby, either on his own or already accompanied by police who had been checking the balcony. 445. § Ibid. 446. § Ibid. 447. § Ibid. 448. § In the data base of the JFK Records Act at the National Archives, there is no record of Bernard Haire. Archivist Martin F. McGann to James Douglass, July 20, 2007. 449. § In a photo taken about 1:50 P.M., November 22, 1963, that shows people gathering around the police cars in front of the Texas Theater, Bernard Haire can be seen at the edge of the crowd, leaning on a parking meter and trying to see. Photo by Stuart L. Reed; on p. 68, Myers, With Malice. 450. § Bernard J. Haire interview by Jim Marrs, summer 1987. Crossfire, p. 354. 451. § Ibid. 452. § Dallas Police Department Homicide Report on J. D. Tippit, November 22, 1963. Reproduced in With Malice, p. 447 (emphasis added). 453. § Letter from Detective L. D. Stringfellow to Captain W. P. Gannaway, November 23, 1963, Dallas City Archives. Cited in Harvey & Lee, p. 871 (emphasis added). ----------------------------- As we all know, Classic Oswald was arrested on the main floor of the Texas Theater. And yet.... The Ed Forum's own Jim Glover talked to Mr. Burroughs in 1993 and Burroughs told him about the arrest of the Oswald look-alike in the theater.

Let me repeat my offer again to Mr. Bojczuk. I’ll locate for him the mastoidectomy document(s) he is seemingly unable to find, but only after he FINALLY debates HERE the points I have asked him to examine FOR YEARS! A link and a claim that evidence has been debunked somewhere else is not a debate. This is now the 14th time I've asked for substantive debate on a half dozen or so Harvey and Lee points.

Russian-speaking Lee HARVEY Oswald went to Russia, where he pretended to speak little Russian, even though he was reasonably fluent. There are quite a few other examples of American-born LEE Harvey Oswald active in the U.S. while the other Oswald was in the USSR. For example.... Despite the fact that she was publicly threatened with perjury and compelled to officially retract her testimony, Marita Lorenz spoke clearly about meeting LEE Harvey Oswald on numerous occasions while Lee HARVEY Oswald was in Russia! Mr. Fithian: "Now is it your testimony that the first time you saw Oswald would have been in the camps in the Everglades?"Marita Lorenz: "The very first time, no. I saw him in the Safehouse and then in the camps."Mr. Fithian: "And that first meeting at the Safehouse would have been within a year of the Bay of Pigs?"Marita Lorenz: "I would say 1960."Mr. Fithian: "It would be some time during 1960?"Marita Lorenz: "Late 1960."Mr. Fithian: "All right. Now I want to be sure that I have your dates correct. You said the first meeting of LEE Harvey Oswald, the first time you saw him, was at a Safehouse in Miami in 1960."Marita Lorenz: "Yes."Mr. Fithian: "The next time or times that you saw him were during training at a camp in the Everglades, various places in the Everglades, in early 1960, 1961 period?"Marita Lorenz: "Yes."Mr. Fithian: "And after that you saw him at the Safehouse the second time?"Marita Lorenz: "Yes."Mr. Fithian: "What makes you so sure of the dates. Within a year of the first meeting in the Safehouse and the meeting at the camps in the Everglades, is there anything else you could match that up with?"Marita Lorenz: "The photographs, the events that took place. the photographs that Alex (Rorke) took. Everywhere we went Alex took pictures."Mr. Fithian: "This was prior to the Bay of Pigs?"Marita Lorenz: "Yes, April, 1961, was the Bay of Pigs." Mr. Fithian: "And you are sure you saw him (Oswald) before April, 1961."Marita Lorenz: "Yes, because Alex took the pictures."Mr. Fithian: "And the whole purpose of the training was to somehow participate or help in the Bay of Pigs.Marita Lorenz: "Yes."Mr. Fithian: "Did you see Oswald at any time in the intervening two years between early 1961 prior to April of 1961 and the September-October Safehouse meeting in 1963?"Marita Lorenz: "No, but Frank (Sturgis) kept in touch with me. Alex kept in touch with me."Mr. Fithian: "Mrs. Lorenz, has your attorney explained what perjury before a congressional committee is all about?"Marita Lorenz: "That is right, yes."Mr. Fithian: "In any way do you want to change your testimony on these dates?"Marita Lorenz: "No, I do not."Mr. Fithian: "There is adequate documentary evidence that Lee Harvey Oswald did not indeed return from the Soviet Union until June of 1962. Marita Lorenz: "I don't know about that." Mr. Fithian: "Therefore you could not have met him at the Safehouse in 1960, you could not have seen him in the Everglades in 1960 and 1961, and you could not have taken a picture in those areas and could not have a picture for the dates of that time."Marita Lorenz: "No?"Mr. Fithian: "It is not possible."Marita Lorenz: "I don't know about that."Mr. Fithian: "Now can you explain to the committee why you gave us this false information as far as dates?"Marita Lorenz: "I did not give you false information."Mr. Fithian: "Mrs. Lorenz, I went over your testimony very carefully a moment ago and you assured me that you met Lee Harvey Oswald prior to the Bay of Pigs."Marita Lorenz: "I did."Mr. Fithian: "On two occasions."Marita Lorenz: "Yes."Mr. Fithian: "Lee Harvey Oswald was in Russia during that entire period."Marita Lorenz: "I do not know that. I did not know that. The Lee Harvey Oswald that I met was the same in that picture, the one in the Safehouse. the same one that Frank knows. I do not know where he was according to your information. I do not know. I never read up on anything about these theories that are coming out about him."Mr. Fithian: "This is not a matter of theory."Marita Lorenz: "I know I am telling the truth. If you don't want it, that's too bad, you know. I am here to gain nothing, you know. Nothing. Nothing at all. You are trying a homicide investigation that should be solved, you know. Don't dispute me or put me on trial."Mr. Fithian: "Only if we can have full and truthful testimony."Marita Lorenz: "You have got it. You have it from me. I don't know about the other people. I have nothing to lose and nothing to hide-nothing.Mr. Fithian: "And it is your testimony that you are certain that the person you met at the Safehouse and at the camps of the Everglades is the same person that you met in Dallas."Marita Lorenz: "Yes, it is."Mr. Fithian: "Do you have any explanation for how we come up with two Lee Harvey Oswalds during this period?"Marita Lorenz: "I have no explanation. I know the man I met; he was a creep. I didn't like him. I don't have to be here at all. I have nothing to gain.Mr. Fithian: "Thank you. That is all." Here’s another example: FROM: SAC (New York) TO: Director FBI Enclosed for each recipient is one copy of a self-explanatory Army communication dated 12.30.63 captioned Harvey Oswald. Enclosed Army communication alleges that Oswald was in Cuba in the company of Robert Taber, former head of Fair Play for Cuba Committee (FPCC), approximately three weeks after the April 1961, Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba. Here's the document: Let’s not forget Hoover’s remark, written on the very day of the assassination, that Oswald “went to Cuba on several occasions but would not tell us what he went to Cuba for." I’ll bet that memo would have been deep-sixed within days if Hoover hadn’t sent it to so many people! Additional examples and document links describing Oswald in the U.S. and Russia simultaneously are at the link below (be sure not to miss the link to John A's write-up on the infamous Steve Landesberg incident, a series of events involving one Oswald active on the U.S. East Coast that occurred at the very time the other Oswald was in Russia): HARVEY IN RUSSIA, LEE IN THE U.S.

Once again, Mr. Bocjzuk admits that, although he has argued for years that the mastoidectomy disproves the conclusion by many researchers that two young men shared the identity of “Lee Harvey Oswald”, he apparently cannot identify the document or two that seems to indicate the procedure was performed on a youthful LHO. Recently, he has begun demanding that I fetch the document for him! And yet, for far longer, I’ve been demanding that he debate HERE just a few factual points supporting the existence of two Lee Harvey Oswalds. He steadfastly refuses to do so, occasionally offering a link and the claim that someone else has debunked the evidence. No one else has debunked the evidence! If someone else had, Mr. Bojczuk would be trumpeting the arguments here. HERE’S MY OFFER TO MR. BOJCZUK: I’ll locate for him the mastoidectomy document(s) he is seemingly unable to find, but only after he FINALLY debates HERE the points I have asked him to examine FOR YEARS! A link and a claim that evidence has been debunked somewhere else is not a debate. Other than offering this solution, how else can I compel Mr. Bojczuk to debate me? So…. I'll ask Mr. Bojczuk, for the 13th time now, to finally debate here the following issues. Or will he just say, as always, that someone else has successfully debunked these points and hide behind a flurry of links? None of the issues below are debunked by any of the links Mr. Bojczuk has previously provided. For the fall semester of the 1953-54 school year, one Oswald attended Beauregard JHS in New Orleans for 89 school days while the other was enrolled in Public School 44 in New York City, where he was present for 62 full days and 5 half days, was absent 3 full days and 8 half days, for a total accounting of 78 days. For the next semester, one Oswald was at Beauregard JHS in New Orleans while the other Oswald attended Stripling School in Texas. The Social Security Administration did not include ANY of “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” teen-aged employment income in his “Lifetime Earnings Report” indicating in a cover letter it was including “Copies of three pages of the Warren Commission Report re employment of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to service in the Marine Corps.” One Oswald departed for Taiwan aboard the USS Skagit on Sept. 14, 1958 and was stationed in Ping Tung, Taiwan on Oct. 6, 1958, at the very same time the other Oswald was being treated for venereal disease at Atsugi, Japan, nearly 1500 miles away. One Oswald appeared at the Bolton Ford dealership in New Orleans while the other was in the Soviet Union. One Oswald had a driver’s license and was seen by many witnesses driving a car, and the other Oswald could not drive. On November 22, 1963, one Oswald left the Texas School Book Depository on a bus and then a taxi, and the other left in a Nash Rambler.

Just scroll down the page a little more. Identical and almost identical images are displayed right below the material you copied above. EDIT: Congrats, John, on locating again that “Certificate of Authenticity” for the baby photo! We all have questions about the hard sell as well as the believably that this sailor suit was saved for seventy years or so, but this is EXACTLY the kind of information we want to acquire when examining photos.

John, I’ve been thinking that a valuable bit of research might be to try and examine the provenance of those baby photos you’ve been examining. I mentioned a website from a few years back that allegedly had photos obtained from Robert Oswald, but I just don’t remember if the ones you've been comparing came from there, or if the site was what it claimed to be, or if it still exists. As far as I can recall, neither of those images was available to the Warren Commission. Perhaps you have other approaches, but the primary method I use to examine images is to open a Google Chrome browser, find the image online, right click on the picture, and then select “Search Google for image.” You can also go to images.google.com, click the little camera icon, and upload an image from your local device. The results may take some time to go through, but it’s easy work. If you’re not interested in doing this, I’ll try to find some time to take a look. Just a thought....

Paul, Here are two YouTube videos narrated by John that have a combined viewership, so far, of 613, 431. They were put together by a fellow who calls himself MrChrillemannen. We have no idea who MrChrillemannen is, but the narration was pieced together from interviews John has done over the years on Len Osanic's Black Ops Radio. Some of the graphics appear to be from my website, though many can be found elsewhere as well. There are quite a few other YouTube videos featuring John’s work. Captain Westbrook, officer Tippit and Oswald's double. 2 hours 31 minutes 335,811 views Who impersonated Lee Harvey Oswald? 43 minutes 277,620 views

Let's get this straight. The only serious argument against Harvey and Lee Mr. Bojczuk has made for years involves the mastoidectomy, and yet he now admits he doesn't know what document(s) relate to the mastoidectomy? Is he kidding? Or is this just more rhetorical trickery? It is hardly my turn to answer Mr. Bojczuk's questions or locate documents for him. It has long been his turn to answer mine, which he steadfastly refuses to do. I'll ask him, for the 12th time now, to finally debate here the following issues. Or will he just say, as always, that someone else has successfully debunked these points and hide behind a flurry of links? None of the issues below are debunked by any of the links Mr. Bojczuk has previously provided. For the fall semester of the 1953-54 school year, one Oswald attended Beauregard JHS in New Orleans for 89 school days while the other was enrolled in Public School 44 in New York City, where he was present for 62 full days and 5 half days, was absent 3 full days and 8 half days, for a total accounting of 78 days. For the next semester, one Oswald was at Beauregard JHS in New Orleans while the other Oswald attended Stripling School in Texas. The Social Security Administration did not include ANY of “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” teen-aged employment income in his “Lifetime Earnings Report” indicating in a cover letter it was including “Copies of three pages of the Warren Commission Report re employment of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to service in the Marine Corps.” One Oswald departed for Taiwan aboard the USS Skagit on Sept. 14, 1958 and was stationed in Ping Tung, Taiwan on Oct. 6, 1958, at the very same time the other Oswald was being treated for venereal disease at Atsugi, Japan, nearly 1500 miles away. One Oswald appeared at the Bolton Ford dealership in New Orleans while the other was in the Soviet Union. One Oswald had a driver’s license and was seen by many witnesses driving a car, and the other Oswald could not drive. On November 22, 1963, one Oswald left the Texas School Book Depository on a bus and then a taxi, and the other left in a Nash Rambler.

Mr. Bojczuk apparently hopes readers will believe there are "few remaining 'Harvey and Lee' believers," but he already knows quite the opposite is true. Interest in H&L has simply been exploding in recent years. Last time I checked, two lengthy YouTube movies based on interviews with John A have enjoyed more than 600,000 views. Those are big numbers for JFK research. I have also shown Mr. Bojczuk that, in recent years, at least three books have been published based entirely or in part on Harvey and Lee. The JFK Assassination and the Uncensored Story of the Two Oswalds From an Amazon review: “I'd read a good chunk of Armstrong's Harvey and Lee, but Shannan provided clarity for me on the matter of Marguerite Oswald in particular and the whole thesis in general. So much easier to read this digest than the master's unedited tome.” DOPPELGANGER: The Legend of Lee Harvey Oswald From the publisher’s blurb: “More than 300 sources, including many sworn testimonies & affidavits, were consulted, as well as John Armstrong’s massive research project HARVEY AND LEE. One fact led to another, until a coherent picture began to emerge from the immense pile of puzzle pieces…. That picture includes the background of Harvey as a juvenile immigrant fluent in Russian, and the creation of the second ‘Lee Harvey Oswald’ and the second ‘Marguerite Oswald.’ The picture continues with the recruitment of both Lee Oswald and Harvey Oswald by the ONI and the CIA, followed by Harvey’s assumption of Lee’s identity, his ‘defection’ to Russia, and Lee’s involvement with the Cuban revolution and the CIA..…” Mistaken Identity From the publisher’s blurb: "New forensic and evidentiary material not published, proves that two individuals known as "Lee Harvey Oswald" enlisted in the U.S. Marines in 1956 using the same birth certificate. Recent genealogical research identifies them as second cousins through intermarriage of second-generation French families in New Orleans. It created a nightmare of identity for the FBI."

Yes, it certainly does look in that photo that the tooth is completely gone. I’m not totally certain about the ID, though, because there are pictures of HARVEY that clearly show that tooth being shorter than the ones on either side it. This appears to be a common occurrence. Looking in a mirror, it is true of my own teeth as well. The two central incisors and the canine tooth are significantly longer than the lateral incisor (I think it is called) that they surround. Regarding the baby photos, in my opinion it is hard to make comparisons without knowing the true provenance of the images. There have been, surely, BILLIONS of babies throughout the world who had their pictures taken in the last century or so, including hundreds of millions of Americans. With hundreds of millions of earlobes to chose from, for example, I wouldn't be too certain about identifying a specific person based solely on that characteristic. We need to know more about these images.

Everyone makes mistakes from time to time, but John Butler has made valuable contributions to JFKA research and he certainly doesn’t deserve to be mocked by Mr. Bojczuk, which I believe is a violation of forum rules. Getting back to what we were talking about.... Again, the photo above left is of LHO and Marina probably taken in Nov. 1962 in a photo booth at a Dallas bus station. The photo above right shows LHO seven years earlier in a Civil Air Patrol meeting in New Orleans. According to two witnesses, David Ferrie is in the same image (more about this below). According to John A’s analysis of all the available evidence, the CAP photo shows American-born LEE Harvey Oswald and the 1962 Dallas photo shows Russian-speaking Lee HARVEY Oswald. Due to some cruel trick of fate, I’m just terrible with faces and so I wondered if Steve and John could summarize the reasons they think these pictures depict two different young men. More on the Civil Air Patrol picture. The closeup-up of Oswald is taken from this picture: The image believed to be Ferrie is circled at the left side, and Oswald is circled on the right. According to the website auxbeacon.org, which specializes in information about the U.S. Civil Air Patrol: In 1993, the PBS program Frontline acquired a group photograph showing David Ferrie and Lee Harvey Oswald together at a Civil Air Patrol activity in 1955. The photograph casts some doubt on Ferrie’s claim that he never knew Lee Harvey Oswald. PBS FRONTLINE revealed that they obtained the photograph from John B. Ciravolo, Jr., of New Orleans. Ciravolo, who identified Ferrie, was also a Civil Air Patrol member in 1955 and says he was in the same unit with Oswald and was standing right in front of him in the photo. Former CAP cadet Tony Atzenhoffer, also of New Orleans, identified Oswald and Ferrie in the photograph. FRONTLINE located the photographer, Chuck Frances, who says he took the picture for the Civil Air Patrol and that when he was interviewed by the FBI, he told them that Oswald and Ferrie knew each other, but he did not tell them about the photograph.

Steve, I'm truly surprised that you believe we are talking about images of two different LHOs, and I’m inclined to say yes, the young man with the narrower nose and pointier chin is probably Russian-speaking Harvey, but I can also point to photos that seem to show just the opposite. The photographic evidence in this case, including the baby photos John B reproduced above, is about as reliable as all the rest of the evidence. Toward the very end of Robert Oswald’s life, some never-before-seen photos of LHO and Marguerite began to appear on the internet allegedly from Robert’s collection, including some shots of a baby, but the true provenance of these images is totally unknown, at least as far as I can tell. I trust the more recently "discovered" images even less than the "old reliables" that went through the FBI/WC process. In the graphic below, the top row of pictures, according to John A's analysis of the overall evidence, should depict American-born LEE Oswald, the bottom row Russian-speaking HARVEY.

Steve, Your comment surprises me. As you’ll probably agree, the photo above left is of LHO and Marina probably taken in Nov. 1962 in a photo booth at a Dallas bus station. The photo above right seems to show LHO seven years earlier in a Civil Air Patrol meeting in New Orleans. David Ferrie is in the same image. Of course, conventional wisdom is that these photos show the same young man taken seven or so years apart. Just to be certain, are you saying that you believe they are two different persons? John A, John B and others (including me) believe that the image with Marina shows the Russian-speaking "Lee Harvey Oswald" killed by Jack Ruby. We think the CAP photo shows the American youth born as Lee Harvey Oswald. Do you agree with that last paragraph above, or do you have a different interpretation?

John, I don't know if this is really proof, but the photo in question does show up on the Internet Movie Database with the caption: "Beata Pozniak & Gary Oldman as Marina & Lee Harvey Oswald in Oliver Stone's 'JFK'" See THIS IMDB PAGE, about three quarters of the way down.

Thanks again to all for their helpful leads in this thread, but I’d like to re-emphasize that I’m looking for descriptions that appear in the public record before 11/22/1963 that describe Jack Ruby (or Rubenstein or Rubinstein) as a criminal or a mobster, descriptions that match—or even come close—to the post-assassination condemnations of Ruby. So far, a wide-ranging newspaper database search, as well as a specific look into the Chicago murder of Atty. Leon Cooke, and an examination of the Kefauver Committee Final Report yields the sole result that Ruby was employed by the same local chapter of a labor union that employed the man who killed Atty. Cooke. Again, according to the Chicago Tribune report excerpted above, before he died Cooke named union president John Martin as his shooter, not Ruby. Despite everyone’s help here, from my point of view a Warren Commission document that allegedly pre-dated the assassination is insufficient. From examination of, for example, the rifle documents, it is clear to me that the FBI had a habit of creating phony docs and then dating them earlier than they were created, making untangling the mess even more difficult. Documents allegedly from any number of Federal agencies all filtered through the FBI. My working theory is that, confronted by a case utterly drenched in National Security State connections, Hoover quickly discovered (if he didn’t already know) that Jack Ruby had been actively involved in running guns to Cuba, apparently under CIA protection. And so Hoover decided to make Ruby a mobster to draw attention away from Ruby’s connections to Federal agencies. But even the emerging mobster connection was too conspiratorial for the Warren Commission, which required Lone Nuts® to abound in this case, and so Hoover had to switch gears mid-stream, covering up the very legend he had been in the process of creating. This is conjecture, of course, but with the Ruby problem and the problem of Oswald’s true biography, Hoover had his hands full. It is no wonder he made mistakes, and lots of them. I’m not asking anyone reading this to accept my working theory, but I am asking for help finding references to Ruby the Mobster® that became part of the public record prior to 11/22/1963. So far, I've found nothing.

Thanks, Ron. This gets interesting. Here are the results of the Chicago Tribune search you suggested: Of the five hits listed above, the first and fourth are the most interesting, both of which point to a 12/9/39 front page article. The second, third, and fifth results do not mention Ruby or any of the variants of his name. Here is the lead of that 12/9/39 Tribune story. As you can see, the article indicates that Atty. Cooke named his assailant from his hospital bed, and he said it was union president John Martin, who apparently fled the scene with his married girlfriend. Later in the article, the name “Jack Rubinstein” comes up. I’m going to assume this is our Jack Ruby, although his name is misspelled in the Tribune report. The story indicates that “Much of the information was obtained from Jack Rubinstein (sic), secretary of the union…. Rubinstein (sic) was absent at the time of the shooting.” The story continues on page 2 of the 12/9/39 Tribune and includes the following photos and caption: Assuming “Rubinstein” is our “Rubenstein,” (and the image suggests that it is), Ruby was clearly taken in as a material witness to the investigation, but I see no indication whatsoever that the cops suspected him in the crime, though the union finances were clearly under scrutiny. No other Tribune stories about the Leon Cooke story mention Rubinstein/Rubenstein, and I suspect that he cooperated satisfactorily with police investigators. It always struck me as weird that a supposedly mob-affiliated guy like Jack Ruby so clearly enjoyed hanging out with cops. Can you name another criminal like that? One thing I noticed, though, is I’ve got to redo my searches using "Rubinstein" instead of "Rubenstein" since there is clear confusion about the spelling. Thanks again for you help on this. Do you believe this event tells us that Ruby was mob-affiliated?

I’m far more suspicious that the FBI would just make stuff up rather than a witness they allegedly quoted. Look how the FBI flat-out lied about Dealey Plaza witnesses in this three minute Gil Jesus YouTube video proving that the FBI LIED.

Steve and Ron, Thank you for what appears to be a solid lead in my search for descriptions of Ruby mob ties on the public record prior to the assassination of JFK. In pursuit of the story above, I searched the Chicago Tribune archives for the years 1938 to 1945 looking for references to Jacob Rubenstein, Jack Rubenstein, or Jack Ruby. Here are the results: Jacob Rubenstein – 0 hits Jack Rubenstein – 0 hits Jack Ruby – 6 hits. Here is an image of the “Jack Ruby” hits at the Chicago Tribune archives from 1938-1945: Let’s consider each of these stories. The first, the only one of the six not behind a paywall, is about a Chicago hotel owner named Harry Rubenstein, who was 50 years old in 1945. This is obviously not our Jack Ruby, but you can read the story HERE. The second story from the top is an obituary. The only relevant reference in the third story is to a “Mrs. Jack Ruby.” The fourth story is about an East Coast local union chapter president named “Jack Ruby” and his wage squabbles with the Navy and Ford Motors. This is not our Jack Ruby, but just to be thorough I’m including the story at the bottom of this post. “Jack Ruby” is mentioned in the final paragraph. The fifth story is just a false positive in which the surname “De Jack” is, separated by a comma, next to the first name “Ruby”. The last hit is a reference to people named “Jack West” and “Ruby Morris" in close enough poximity to trigger a false hit. If Jack Ruby was really associated with a 1939 murder described in front page stories in the Chicago Tribune, why is it not even mentioned in that newspaper between the years 1938 and 1945? I’ll have access to the Tribune archives for just another few days. If anyone has any suggestions for searches, I’ll try to find the time to do them. In the meantime, I’ve got to say I’m not impressed by much about so-called “mobster” Jack Ruby on the public record before the assassination of JFK. Here is that Tribune story about the East Coast union man:

Thanks to all for these great responses. This is exactly the kind of detailed research I was hoping to collect. A few specifics.... Joe Bauer, Thanks for the analysis. I don’t mean to be dismissive, but please tell me if I’m missing something here: The pre-11/22/1963 evidence that Jack Ruby was associated with organized crime consists of someone suggesting that his *sister* purchase pipe that *might* be used to hide contraband? Steve Thomas, You always present these original source documents so beautifully! Still, all of your material appears to come through the WC and the HSCA. It does reference a few sources that pre-date the assassination, but nothing in them that I read gives real evidence that Jack Ruby/Jacob Rubenstein associated with organized crime, including the pipe business. I would think this stuff would be easy to find in the public record prior to 11/22/63, but it doesn’t appear to be so. Have you found anything more conclusive? Pete Mellor, The Kefauver Committee is a solid lead. Thank you! I did a search for Jack Ruby AND Kefauver as well as Jacob Rubenstein AND Kefauver in U.S. papers published before 11/22/1963 and got zero results. The database I used claims to have archives “from over 13,000 newspapers….” The 133-page Kefauver Committee Final Report (Aug. 31, 1951) makes no mention of Jack Ruby or Jacob Rubenstein. There is, however, a single hit on “Ben Rubenstein” and one instance of “Ruby Kolod,” neither of which is our man. A Google internet search produces claims that Ruby cut a deal with Kefauver staffers not to talk about certain things, but so far I've found no pre-11/22/1963 evidence for this in the public record. The Kefauver report mentions hundreds and hundreds of names, none of which are Jack Ruby or Jacob Rubenstein. I’ll keep looking for more Kefauver Committee evidence, but so far I have nothing. Thanks again.

Thanks, Joe and Ron; the replies are appreciated! The sources you have both offered as evidence, though, appear to have been published AFTER the assassination of President Kennedy. I’m searching for an indication, even a hint, that Ruby was, for example, a “payoff guy” from a source that was on the public record prior to November 22, 1963. The newspaper database I searched includes, for example, the Dallas Morning News, which has quite a few pre-assassination articles mentioning Ruby, but none also mentioning crime (which should, for example, cover “organized crime”) or the mafia. I just did another pre-assassination search for Jack Ruby and “payoff,” and, although I did get a few hits, they were just false positives in which Ruby’s name and the word “payoff” appeared on the same page of a newspaper. Not one of those stories suggested Ruby was a “payoff guy,” or anything like that. Again, can anyone show me evidence on the public record prior to 11/22/1963 indicating Jack Ruby associated with organized crime figures?