Jim Hargrove

Here’s John A’s take on the whole 1962 Irving thing. The guy who worked for Leslie Welding was Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald. The fellow whose identity he was sharing, American-born LEE Oswald, had a brother (Robert) living in Fort Worth. And LEE knew other people living in Fort Worth. By comparison, HARVEY Oswald had no one other than an estranged wife and a care-taker “mother” who didn’t care (or know) a bit about him. He didn’t trust Marguerite and couldn’t rely on Marina. So where could he have his check sent? There is evidence that Harvey briefly attended Antioch College in Ohio. Ruth Paine attended the same school, but earlier. Both were probably associated with the CIA. John believes that the story of when Harvey Oswald met Ruth Paine is a lie. He thinks he knew her probably since the mid-1950s. John thinks Harvey had his paycheck sent to the Paine residence in Irving.

Tony, We know Oswald’s residence for most of this time frame, and it wasn’t in Irving. The apartment Marina couldn’t remember was almost certainly the Coz-I-Eight Apartments at 1404 North Beckley in the South Oak Cliff neighborhood of Dallas. From Harvey and Lee: Oswald's residence from October 9th thru October 14th remains unknown, but on October 15th he checked into the Dallas YMCA at 605 N. Ervay. He was assigned room #415, at a cost of $2.25 per day, and remained at the "Y" until October 19.133 George Bouhe told the FBI that after securing employment with JCS Oswald spoke with him by telephone every two or three days for several weeks. Bouhe said that when Oswald moved out of the YMCA, he moved to South Oak Cliff in Dallas. Bouhe's recollections are confirmed by Gary Taylor who told the Warren Commission that he remembered Oswald was living at the "Coz-I-Eight Apartments," 1404 North Beckley, in South Oak Cliff.134 [H&L p. 416] Oswald moved out of 1404 North Beckley on November 3, 1962, when he moved into apartment #2 at 604 Elsbeth, where he had a brief reconciliation with Marina.

Paul, The 2530 W. 5th St. address in Irving never occurred to me, but if the two musicians were there in the fall of 1963 specifically to keep tabs on the patsy-to-be, then the time frame a year earlier seems unlikely. American-born LEE Oswald has always seemed more associated with Ruby than Russian-speaking HARVEY. But who knows what convoluted turns this thing could have taken? I don’t know when the musicians moved into that address, do you?

Megathanks, Bart, for yet another fascinating doc from Malcolm Blunt's files. Please keep them coming! Below is James Richard Worrell's alleged 11/23/63 DPD statement. Perhaps someone who knows the Dallas streets around Dealey Plaza can tell us whether Worrell's alleged affidavit supports or differs from Romack's alleged statement. Sorry to say "alleged" so many times, but here's Worrell's alleged statement....

LHO and Marina allegedly met Ruth Paine in February, 1963. However, LHO's boss at Leslie Welding told the WC that when LHO quit, he wrote to the company and asked that his check be sent to him in Irving, TX. This is late Sept or the first week in October, 1962, four months before he and his wife allegedly met Ruth Paine. WC testimony of Tommy Bargas (emphasis added): Mr. BARGAS. I believe it was up until September, if I'm not mistaken, somewhere right along in there. Mr. JENNER. Would this serve to refresh your recollection, that he worked until on or about October 8th, 1962? Mr. BARGAS. No; I don't remember. Mr. JENNER. Could he have worked until October 8th? Mr. BARGAS. It is possible. Mr. JENNER. But your present recollection is more like sometime in the course of September when his employment was terminated? Mr. BARGAS. Yes. Mr. JENNER. What were the circumstances respecting the termination of his employment? Mr. BARGAS. Well, what happened is--he went home one day, not during working hours, but it was right after the regular working hours. Mr. JENNER. After the regular quitting time? Mr. BARGAS. After quitting time at 4:30, and he went home and he didn't give any indication of whether he was going to quit or he was going to leave or anything like that. Mr. JENNER. You expected him back the next day? Mr. BARGAS. I expected him back the next morning and if I'm not mistaken, it was Friday, and Monday he didn't show up, I believe it was; if I'm not mistaken--I can't place it, and so he didn't call in and he didn't have a phone, as far as I can remember, so I never tried to get in contact with him or anything like that, and I figured he may have someone to call in or something like that, so I just let it ride, and then he didn't show up the second day after that, so all I said then was, "Well, I imagine he quit because a line of guys had done the same thing." In other words, a lot of them just never did show up and that's all that happened. They would come back on the following Friday or something like that and say, "I quit, I've got another job." That's what the other guys would say. Well, he was different--when he left the only thing he done was he wrote in to the plant and told us where to send his check to. He said he was up there in Irving somewhere I--don't remember the address or exactly what place it was, but as far as I know that was it. I never had seen him since then and the last time I heard of him was when his name sounded off on the radio. Mr. JENNER. Where were you then? Mr. BARGAS. I was there at the plant. How did "LHO" know he could get mail in Irving four months before he and Marina allegedly met Ruth Paine?

Steve, Right, but despite the considerable sympathy we all must have for Marina’s position in 1964, her WC testimony can surely be regarded as little more than a practiced attempt to buttress the weak points in the Official Story®. Remember her claim about him “shooting at leaves” in a city park? Even the HSCA, in regard to the Walker shooting mentioned above, wrote, (emphasis added): “and since item (4) pertains to the testimony of Marina Oswald (whose testimony has all the weight of a handful of chicken feathers), we regretfully refuse to accept the judgment of the Commission in regard to the Walker shooting….” To me, her claim just shows that the people shaping her testimony were well aware there was no obvious reason for LHO to have gone back to New Orleans that summer.

I was playing Frisbee golf today when John A. called my cell and we spoke for a few minutes. I asked if he was sure there was a basement exit in the TSBD and he said yes, absolutely, and described it. He said it was on the west side, and when you opened the exit door there were stairs and a banister outside leading up. I said someone here found a basement floor plan and no exterior exit was indicated. He said it didn’t matter that he was sure there was an exit. I forgot to ask him when he saw it, but it was probably in the 1990s or early 2000s when he spent the most time researching this case. I’ve tried Googling for a TSBD basement exit and so far have come up empty.

Steve -- About the only thing I know about Wackenhut is that Jim Di showed it spied on the Garrison prosecution of Shaw, which suggests, but hardly proves, at least an Agency orientation. Do you believe some of its FBI veterans were with the CIA also at some point? My words you quoted above, about not being able to name a person, were in answer to Tony Krome’s question about naming anyone who worked simultaneously for the FBI and CIA. A number of forum members suggested names, William Harvey and Win Scott most notably, of people who had worked for both agencies, although at different times. I still can’t imagine why LHO would have moved from Dallas to New Orleans in 1963 unless someone was paying him to do so, and my bet is the FBI rather than, at that point, the CIA. Delphine Roberts said Banister thought Oswald worked for the Bureau.

Megathanks for the link, Paul and Steve. I didn't know a transcript was available for this session. The story may not be the slam dunk Ford and Tanenbaum led me to believe it was, but I'm going to study this some more. From the very limited digging I've done so far, it is clear that a bunch of knives long ago had been sharpened for Lonnie Hudkins, which always makes me suspicious, but doesn't mean he was right. I'll reserve judgment for now, but.... The reason that so many people and organization (the Houston Chronicle and even, briefly, the New York Times) were asking about government associations with "LHO" seems pretty clear. Looking at the story as a whole, it just seems as obvious as the fact that LHO didn't act alone, if at all. It's visceral, at least for me. Thanks again!

There is an HSCA report of an interview with Banister’s secretary Delphine Roberts that states, “BANISTER believed that OSWALD did not act alone and he also believed that OSWALD was working for the FBI at the time that he was in N.O.” I seem to recall information that Roberts also said Banister told someone there was “no problem” and “the guy is ours” or words to that effect when told of the leafleting, but I spent a few minutes trying to confirm it and couldn’t. Banister was obviously angry that Oswald used the Camp St. address. LHO was surrounded by USG agents and informants during that Canal St. pantomime, which was watched by CIA agent William Gaudet and FBI informant Orest Pena. FBI informant Orville Aucoin took pictures (later shown on national television), while FBI photographers recorded it from across the street. Arrested with Oswald were Carlos Bringuier (an FBI informant recruited by DeBrueys) and FBI informant T-2 Miguel Cruz. Are we to believe that “Lee Harvey Oswald” was just about the only fellow in that whole sidewalk charade unaffiliated with the USG, especially the FBI?

I can't name another person who was employed by both the FBI and the CIA, but I'd be surprised if that would be public knowledge. We wouldn't know it about "Lee Harvey Oswald" were he not put under a microscope after getting entangled in the assassination. I agree with Paul J. that the "Oswald Project" was a creation of the CIA, but what else can we do but look at the evidence--all of it--and try to figure out who to trust? My own guess is that Oswald wouldn't have moved back to NOLA and gone through all that acting near the Trade Mart without being paid by someone for it, and he sure was surrounded by FBI people. And Waggoner Carr and Henry Wade seemed pretty certain he was getting $200 a month from the FBI. I'll read Paul's links tonight.

Tony, Ford named only "the Texas Attorney General" and long-time Dallas "District Attorney [Henry] Wade...." The Texas Attorney General at the time was Waggoner Carr. Robert Tanenbaum (former Deputy Counsel for the House Select Committee on Assassinations) testified that he read the transcript of the secret session Ford was referring to. In 1996 Tanenbaum testified at an ARRB hearing in Los Angeles by saying, "the Attorney General of Texas, Henry Wade the District Attorney and Leon Jaworsky counsel to the Attorney General, on the transcript spoke to the Chief Justice and said in substance, as I recall, that they had information from unimpeachable sources that Lee Harvey Oswald was a contract employee of the CIA and the FBI." (Click here for full testimony.)

John, The floor plan you posted above is of the first floor, not the basement, and so we can't use it to determine whether there was an exterior exit from the basement. I'm quite certain that John A. told me there was indeed an exterior side exit from the basement. I searched, but I haven't yet found a basement floor plan.

Thank you for that, Stephanie. The most logical explanation for this is surely that our young FBI informant felt he had spent quite enough time in jail and wanted his FBI handler (DeBrueys) to get him out. When Quigley showed up instead of DeBrueys, Harvey clammed up because this FBI SA hadn’t gotten the memo ‘splaining his (Oswald’s) assignment. Oswald was surely a CIA agent of some sort, but we’ve also known since 1965 that he had been on the FBI payroll and still was the day JFK was murdered. The source of this information was none other than WC member and future U.S. President Gerald Ford: The Texas officials slipped into the nation’s capital with complete anonymity. They met with Lee Rankin and other members of the staff and told what they knew. The information was that Lee Oswald was actually hired by the FBI; that he was assigned the undercover-agent number 179; that he was on the FBI payroll at two hundred dollars a month starting in September 1962 and that he was still on their payroll the day he was apprehended in the Texas Theatre after having gunned down Officer J.D. Tippit! --Gerald Ford and John Styles, Portrait of the Assassin, p. 14, Simon and Schuster, New York, 1965

John and Ray, John A., who has been inside the TSBD numerous times, told me there WAS a side entrance to the building, but it led to the basement, not the first floor.

Paul, This is well beyond my security clearance, but if I had to hazard a guess about the locations of American-born LEE Oswald (5’11”, ~165 lbs) in the summer and fall of 1963, based on JA’s research, I’d say that while HARVEY was in both New Orleans and Dallas, LEE was living in Dallas (at least part of that time at 1501-1503 W. 7th in Dallas), often hanging around with Jack Ruby and the girls, but also traveling briefly to the towns of Jackson and Clinton and Baton Rouge in Louisiana and environs, as well as the Cuban exile training camps in Florida (meeting with Marita Lorenz, Frank Fiorini, et al) and visiting Castro’s favorite gun supplier Robert McKeown in Baycliff, TX on Labor Day weekend, 1963. There is little doubt that American-born LEE Oswald spent at least part of his time in New Orleans in the summer of ‘63, but I have no idea who—if anyone--called Lillian Murret. I sincerely doubt she could have differentiated LEE from HARVEY on the phone or perhaps even in person. Except for that weird Thanksgiving get-together, it had been many years. Surely it was all part of the CIA’s “LET’S INVADE CUBA AGAIN” games. And they almost succeeded. Do you think this is LEE Oswald in Ruby's Carousel Club?

Thanks again to Bart for that important Garrison doc apparently dictated by Penn Jones, but I'm getting confused. Why is there no mention of anyone behind a wooden fence in Carr's testimony at the Shaw trial prosecuted by Garrison? Here's the relevant portion of the transcript of Carr's statements provided by John Butler (emphasis, I assume, from Mr. Butler): “A: Yes, I was on the Seventh Floor of the New Courthouse Building that was under con- struction at that time, located on Houston and Commerce, facing Dealey Plaza. Q: Approximately what time were you on the Seventh Floor of that building facing Dealey Plaza? A: Sir, I can't recall the exact time, but it was at the time that the parade was coming down towards Dealey Plaza. I did not have a watch at the time. Q: Were you in a position where you could see the parade? A: Yes, sir. Q: Do you recall seeing anything unusual happening? A: Yes, I do. Q: Would you tell us what happened. A: At the time the parade came down towards -- going to the School Book Depository, Dealey Plaza would have been to my left where I was standing, and at the Fifth Floor of the School Book Depository I noticed a man at the third window, this man was dressed -- he had on a light hat, and I saw this man later going down Houston Street, to the corner of Commerce, and then turned toward town on Commerce, and at that time before this happened I heard a single shot which sounded like a small arms, maybe a pistol, and I immediately, immediately there was a slight pause and immediately after that I heard three rifle shots in succession, they seemed to be fired from an automatic rifle and they came – “ ” Q: Would you tell us what you observed. A: Should I point it out, sir? Q: Yes. A: At this point right here, at this School Book Depository there was a Rambler Station Wagon there with a rack on the back, built on the top of this. Q: Which way was the station wagon facing? A: It was parked on the wrong side of the street, next to the School Book Depository heading north. Q: North being the top of the photomap, north is the top as you have indicated? A: North is the top, and it was headed in this direction towards the railroad tracks, and immediately after the shooting there was three men that emerged from behind the School Book Depository, there was a Latin, I can't say whether he was Spanish, Cuban, but he was real dark-complected, stepped out and opened the door, there was two men entered that station wagon, and the Latin drove it north on Houston.

That's my take (and my friend John Armstrong's) but I don't know how many other researchers will agree. I'm sure there were additional reasons for some of the people who went along with this crime, but the prime motivation seems damnably clear to me.

Raw report on HSCA telephone interview with Orest Pena from John Armstrong Collection at Baylor:

Fascinating! Thanks to Bart and Malcolm!

Just about everyone surrounding Oswald in New Orleans in the summer of ‘63 was either an FBI agent, ex-FBI, or an FBI informant. Banister had been SAC of Chicago less than a decade earlier. Oswald was on the Bureau’s payroll. My bet is that DeBrueys was lying through his teeth to the Church Committee, and was probably told to do so. Funny how he felt compelled to deny those reports that Oswald was his informant. I still think the CIA (Shaw) loaned Russian-speaking Oswald to the FBI (Banister) in 1963. There was no conceivable reason for Oswald to move from Texas back to New Orleans in 1963 other than to set himself up as a Castro-loving commie. It may not have started this way, but it turned out to be his unwitting role in the set-up for the JFK assassination which would, the conspirators undoubtedly believed, provoke a REAL invasion of Cuba. Just note the activities of David Atlee Phillips immediately after the hit.

Many researchers consider Lee HARVEY Oswald’s FPCC pantomime around Shaw’s Trade Mart in New Orleans as the real beginning of the assassination plot, and Warren DeBrueys was all over it. Among DeBrueys’ formal or informal informants were Orest Pena, Carlos Bringuier, Jesse Core (who had worked for USIS in India and who replaced David Baldwin as public relations director at Clay Shaw’s Trade Mart) and surely Oswald. From Harvey and Lee: The Habana Bar, located at 117 Decatur [in New Orleans], was across the street from the Federal Building where the FBI, CIA, ONI and INS offices were located. The bar was owned by Orest Pena, a former Cuban who was an informant for New Orleans FBI Agent Warren DeBrueys. Pena said that on many occasions David Ferrie and Clay Shaw came to his bar together and knew each other very well. AUG, 63-01102 He said that Sergio Arcacha Smith and SA Warren DeBrueys were close friends and both men knew David Ferrie very well.3 Pena was interviewed by CBS News reporter Dan Rather years after the assassination and talked about DeBrueys and Oswald: Rather: "Did any of the people you saw having-meeting with Lee Harvey Oswald, were any of these FBI Agents?" Pena: "Yes.... Warren C. DeBrueys." Rather: "Warren DeBrueys is an FBI Agent, and you saw him with Lee Harvey Oswald?" Pena: "Yes, I knew Warren C. DeBrueys very well, because I used to work for him.... I was an informer for the FBI about the people in New Orleans."4 NOTE: FBI employee William Walter, who worked in the New Orleans office, saw an FBI file on Lee Harvey Oswald which was classified as an "Informant file," and had Warren DeBrueys’ name stamped on it. [H&L, p. 561]

Steve, It may just be a matter of semantics; after all, prisoners have certain restrictions on how they can communicate with the outside world. The first sentence of SA John Lester Quigley’s 8/15/63 report, describing his interview of Oswald in the New Orleans jail, reads as follows (emphasis added): "LEE HARVEY OSWALD was interviewed at the First District Station. New Orleans Police Department, at his request." The full report can be read HERE. (It starts on page 2 of the pdf file.) That report is interesting since, toward the end, it has quite a bit of info about the Hidell name, which might be relevant to your other thread. Since Quigley's write-up is dated more than three months before the assassination, we can hope that it is entirely genuine, though I’d hardly bet my life on it.

Regarding Paul Rigby’s detailed article linked above.... Has anyone actually seen the 11/22/63 Associated Press wire story indicating that “Dr. Perry said the entrance wound—which is the medical description—the entrance wound was in the front of the head”? If they still exist, reproductions of the report should be available from archives of at least some of the newspapers subscribing to the A.P. at the time. Newspapers.com or similar archives should have graphics of numerous versions from print dailies, but I let my subscription expire. Mr. Rigby lists the source(s) as a 1975 Skeptic magazine article and a 1998 Vince Palamara piece. If it still exists, I’d love to have a graphic of the A.P. story. I wasn’t able to locate it on the free Google newspaper archive.

That would have created a mess for the authorities, and perhaps saved his life. Had his public comment come later in the game, I wonder if that would have occurred to him. "In the afternoon Oswald contacted the FBI office in New Orleans, while SA John Lester Quigley was on duty. The Bureau is not known to dispatch agents to inter-­ view people who have been thrown in jail for disturbing the peace, yet SA Quigley vis-­ ited Oswald in jail on a Saturday afternoon. Before he left the office Quigley asked FBI employee William Walter to see if the Bureau had a file on Oswald. Walter found a file which carried an "informant" classification and the name SA Warren DeBrueys as his contact." [H&L, p. 566] . . . . After leaving court Oswald walked to the New Orleans States-Item and asked reporter David Chandler to write a story about his arrest and his involvement with the FPCC. When Chandler told Oswald they (the States-Item) were not in sympathy with him or his ideas, Oswald told Chandler that everyone had a right to their individual thoughts.37 A newspaper article would have enhanced Oswald's image as a supporter of Fidel Castro! [H&L, p. 569]