Jim Hargrove

JIM GARRISON VS. JOHNNY CARSON (JANUARY 31, 1968) https://youtu.be/-ahBSHUE-yc

It appears that over the years a handful of other daily newspapers across the U.S. have repeated the words RFK allegedly said to Jim Garrison. Here's another one in addition to what Tony posted. It's from the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, Friday, Dec. 6, 1974, p4:

We seem to all agree that Roy Truly is as suspicious as hell. I asked the question about Frazier just because William Weston in 2005 theorized that he was one of the “three calm men,” along with Shelley and Lovelady, that were seen by Robert MacNeil on the first floor warehouse section. Whatever additional suspicions John A. and I have about Shelley and Lovelady should not detract from the finger of guilt pointing directly at Truly. With that out of the way, let’s talk about where we seem to disagree.... Sandy, the position that Adams’s alleged sighting of Shelley and Lovelady at the bottom of the stairs was inserted later into her testimony by the WC’s high-priced attorneys in order to impeach her estimate of reaching the first floor in just a minute or so after the shots seems reasonable enough. But if the WC was going to invent whole paragraphs of testimony for Adams, why not just change her time estimate by a couple of minutes instead, to give “Oswald” sufficient time to get down from the sixth to second floor? With that simple edit, the problem goes away entirely. We talked about this a few months ago, but, again, if the encounter was invented later, why did WC attorneys ask both Shelley and Lovelady about it just a few hours after Adams testified? Do you think each man’s testimony and questioning was altered also? That would have involved, I think, at least two or three different attorneys. Also, Sandy, thanks for the info that Gloria Calvery and Lovelady can be identified together by the front steps in the Darnell clip just a half minute or so after the shooting. Thanks, too, for the suggestion that Lovelady can be seen on the TSBD steps in the very same frames of the clip supposedly showing Shelley and him walking down the Elm extension. If you could point me to either one or both of these visuals, I’d REALLY appreciate it. Interestingly enough, within a day or two after I published John A’s revised write-up of Escape from the Sixth Floor, in which he took a hard look at Shelley and Lovelady, a number of people I had never heard of sent me links or embedded videos of that so-called visual “proof” that the two men were walking down Elm after the shooting. I thought it was strange at the time, and I’ve never believed the clip was proof of anything.

Paul, No one I know of is trying to dismiss Truly’s apparent guilt here, but if John A's theory is correct, the positioning of Shelley and Lovelady on the first floor by the back door, the electrical panels, and their offices was hardly inconsequential. Even if you are not convinced of the electrical cut-off, I'm sure you'll agree that someone had to give the designated patsy post-assassination instructions. Someone had to tell “Oswald” to leave the building quickly so that it would appear he was running. Some one had to tell him to get on the out-of-the-way Marsalis bus where he could be killed by cops who boarded it a few minutes later, and someone had to tell him to travel to the Texas Theater as part of Plan B for his elimination. John makes the case that it was probably Shelley who provided those instructions. All that needed to be accomplished pre-assassination was to make sure “Oswald” was instructed to go to the back door of the building after whatever event he was told to expect. Shelley could then give him his orders. Truly, accompanied by Baker, was in no position to do so. My guess is that Robert MacNeil encountered the three calm men at just about the time Oswald was being told what to do. John B., I agree that Buell Frazier's statements about the bag do not ring true, but he may have been just a scared kid getting pushed around rather severely by the cops. Can you imagine the heat that must have been placed on him?

Thanks, Paul. I agree about Frazier, but there’s certainly no lack of conflicting evidence in this case, the very type of thing a legitimate investigation could have untangled. But alas, it’s up to us, apparently. It seems pretty obvious that if there was a serious American intel presence inside the TSBD directing “Oswald’s” activities, there would be no end of disinformation about it, continuing as long as necessary and even up to the present day and beyond. With that bit of pessimism out of the way, let’s bring one more voice into the puzzle. The soon-to-be-famous newsman Robert MacNeil told the FBI that he entered the front door of the TSBD “four minutes after the shooting. I went immediately into the clear space on the ground floor and asked where there was a phone. There were, as I recall, three men there, all I think in shirt sleeves. What, on recollection, strikes me as possibly significant is that all three seemed to be exceedingly calm and relaxed, compared to the pandemonium which existed right outside their front door.” Who were these three “exceedingly calm and relaxed” men? Could two of them have been the “white men” seen just a couple of minutes earlier by Baker before he and Truly charged up the stairs (with the unarmed Truly courageously leading the way seeking a potentially heavily armed assassin)? Could two of these men have been Shelley and Lovelady, as Victoria Adams may have seen? Could “Oswald” have joined them, perhaps getting instructions from Shelley to board a Marsalis bus and go to the Texas Theater to meet a “contact”? If the men weren’t Shelley, Lovelady, and Oswald, who else could they have been? There surely weren’t many warehouse workers near the back of the building so soon after the procession rode by. Office workers would have had no reason to be there, amidst the stacks of boxes and warehouse dust. And why were these men “exceedingly calm” in the middle of all that mayhem? Apparently, the Robert MacNeil story was greatly confused by what appears to be misinformation supplied by William Manchester, well-known author of Death of a President. In 2005, attorney William Weston wrote a pretty good article in The Fourth Decade and presented on this forum entitled “ROBERT MACNEIL AND THE THREE CALM MEN.” Mr. Weston had a long crossed-out version of the story at the end of the link below, which he indicated “contains a section on Shelley, Lovelady, and Frazier that Jerry Rose left out, I guess because he thought it was too slanderous. So here it is, complete.” In that section, he argues that the three calm men were Shelley, Lovelady, and Frazier. This is complicated by Manchester’s apparent error, but I believe the three men may have been Shelley, Lovelady, and Classic Oswald®. Here’s the link to Mr. Weston’s article (be sure to read the crossed-out material as well if you’re not familiar with it): http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/5656-robert-macneil-and-the-three-calm-men/

Thanks again, Sandy. You've helped me understand that the guy in the clip I posted was not "Oswald." But... Do you think Shelley and Lovelady conspired to frame "Oswald?" How about Frazier?

Interesting points, Joe. Thanks. There may be no way to identify with certainty the fellow in the business suit by the Trade Mart, but Elsie Glaze’s allegation that Shelley admitted he was with the CIA, if true, goes a long way toward suggesting it could have been him in New Orleans that day. Virtually everyone around “Oswald” at the ITM had some sort of American Intel connection.

Bill Shelley was about 38 years old the day JFK was murdered. This Thomas Beckham fellow, at least in the photo above, does not appear to be NEARLY that old. Just my opinion, but the fellow in front of the NOLA Trade Mart appears closer to Shelley's age than Beckham's.

From the William Weston article linked above comes this extraordinary paragraph (emphasis added): Shelley told Glaze that he had been the supervisor of Lee Harvey Oswald. After the assassination, the Dallas police placed Shelley under arrest and formally charged him with the murder of the President. (No mention was made by Glaze as to why Shelley had been arrested, nor did he say what connection this arrest had with the arrest of Oswald.) The charges against Shelley were soon dropped, and he was released. Since that day, at various times, journalists representing several newspapers and magazines approached him with offers of huge sums of money for his personal account of the assassination. These offers were all turned down. When Glaze tried to get permission to quote him in his own article, Shelley refused and insisted that even his name was not to be printed. Anyone know more about this allegation?

Back in 2006, attorney William Weston wrote a lengthy piece for The Fourth Decade, which was also published here on the Ed Forum. In the article, Mr. Weston wrote that journalist Elzie Glaze wrote in a 1989 letter: "Mr. Shelley claims to have been an intelligence officer during World War II and thereafter joined the CIA." The full post is here:

The Texas School Book Depository distributed school books to five states surrounding Texas, including Louisiana. One of the TSBD employees, Bill Shelley, may have traveled to Louisiana in August, 1963 and been in contact with HARVEY Oswald in New Orleans. When Oswald was passing out FPCC literature, in front of Clay Shaw's International Trade Mart, a man who looks very much like Shelley was standing close to Oswald. There is no proof this man was Bill Shelley, but the physical resemblance is unmistakable. Above: Bill Shelley (??) in New Orleans with HARVEY Oswald. Below: Bill Shelley on 11/22/63 Elzie Glaze was a Dallas journalist who in 1974 met a woman who had been working for the Texas Book Depository since 1969. Her immediate supervisor was Bill Shelley, who Glaze contacted and met on numerous occasions. In a 1989 letter Glaze wrote, "Mr. Shelley claims to have been an intelligence officer during World War II and thereafter joined the CIA." NOTE: From all indications Oswald was alone, in the 2nd floor lunchroom, during the shooting. However, Oswald could not prove that he was in the lunchroom, and therefore needed someone to say that he and Oswald were together during the shooting (not on the 6th floor of the TSBD). While being questioned by DPD Capt. Fritz, Oswald said that he was "out with Bill Shelley in front" during the shooting (recorded on handwritten notes by Capt. Fritz and FBI agent Jim Hosty). Oswald expected his supervisor and CIA contact (Shelley) to confirm that he and Oswald were together during the shooting. But Oswald did not realize that Shelley knew that he (HARVEY Oswald) would be arrested and charged with killing the President of the United States. Not only did Shelley deny being with Oswald, it was very likely Shelley who directed Oswald to leave the TSBD, board the Marsalis bus (#433), and meet a contact at the Texas Theater. If not Shelley, then who ?? --I just added the above material by John Armstrong to the Escape from the 6th Floor page of HarveyandLee.net.

Thanks, Sandy. I finally see the perspective here. Thanks also to Tony and John. I've got a new post ready about Bill Shelley's possible CIA connections and his handling of "Oswald," but this thread has gotten so long I think I'll start a new one.

Since the Boston story was from UPI, probably scores of daily papers published it. Thanks for posting this, Tony.

John, Yes, the still you posted directly above appears to be from the very end of the Dunkel clip. The red arrow (I think!) is pointing to the guy in the white shirt I was asking about. Tony believes that is the Stemmons Freeway he's running toward, which, if so, would mean this is NOT the Nash Rambler Oswald.

Thanks, guys. I sent the clip to John A. a couple of days ago and he thought it was too unclear to analyze. But I was still wondering.... Tony—If you’re 100 percent certain the white car is on the Stemmons Freeway, then this is not the Nash Rambler Oswald. Even with your additional image, though, I can’t seem to get my bearings. Doesn’t the Stemmons Freeway go over Commerce St? Does the white car look elevated to you? Sandy—I’m not sure how relevant the slacks are. Classic Oswald® allegedly changed his pants and put on much darker pants at the rooming house. Craig Roberts testified that the Nash Rambler Oswald had medium blue pants and “looked like he was in an awful hurry.”

Please look at the Gerda Dunkel animated gif below, which zooms in on a well-known Dealey Plaza JFK assassination film and runs for just 4 or 5 seconds. At the very end of the clip (within the last half second or so at the extreme right side of the image) is a man who appears to be wearing a white t-shirt running down the hill toward Elm. Please allow a minute or so for the animation to load. I had to watch the clip twenty or thirty times to see the man in the white shirt at the very end. But now that I’ve seen it so many times, I can’t forget it. YOU MAY HAVE TO LET THE ANIMATION LOOP MANY TIMES TO SEE THE MAN IN THE WHITE SHIRT AT THE EXTREME RIGHT AT THE VERY END!! If you can see him, please answer this question: Who is the man in the white shirt and dark pants at the very end of this clip? Again, he’s on the extreme right side of the frame. Please wait for the animation to load:

Paul, I’m not very good with car identification so thanks for the color picture. John A. thinks the fuzzy b&w image is a Nash Rambler, and it looks quite possible to me if your photo is reasonably correct. Bear in mind that the initial Dallas police radio dispatches for Tippit’s killer reported a suspect in a white shirt and white jacket. We think that was the Nash Rambler Oswald. Thirty minutes or so after Classic Oswald® was arrested in the theater, T.F. White reported seeing Oswald in a “white ‘T’ shirt” in a car with license plates traced to Tippit’s friend and Collins Radio employee Carl Mather.

You make a good case, Tony, but I think the book is hardly closed on the white-shirted Oswald. One example that immediately comes to mind is the case the HSCA dubbed as the “Wes Wise allegation.” The case is pretty well-known. In it, at about 2:00 PM, just an hour and a half after the assassination, mechanic T.F. White spotted a man he believed to be Lee Harvey Oswald sitting in a car that future Dallas Mayor Wes Wise found had plates registered to J.D. Tippit’s close friend Carl Mather. Mather was employed by CIA-connected Collins Radio. See the HSCA report below, which states that the man White believed was LHO “turned in his seat and faced him head on, giving him a good look at his face. The man was wearing a white ‘T’ shirt.”

James, Surely most people here are or will be disappointed to learn about your dilemma. I certainly am. Without knowing the details of your total monthly bandwidth, the hosting fees sound kind of high. The sudden increase they hit you with recently certainly seemed excessive. In an earlier post, unless I’m mistaken, you mentioned that a condition of your takeover of the Ed Forum was to continue working with Invision as host. Considering the price hikes, would it be possible to revisit those terms and shop around for a less expensive solution? Whatever happens, I’d like to thank you again for the time and money you invested in this forum. Even if it ends on June 11, it was a huge success while it lasted.

You’re right, Tony. The existing transcript of his testimony describes it as a “light tan shirt.” Mr. BELIN - Could you describe the man that you saw running down toward the station wagon? Mr. CRAIG - Oh, he was a white male in his twenties, five nine, five eight, something like that; about 140 to 150; had kind of medium brown sandy hair--you know, it was like it'd been blown--you know, he'd been in the wind or something--it was all wild-looking; had on--uh--blue trousers-- Mr. BELIN - What shade of blue? Dark blue, medium or light? Mr. CRAIG - No; medium, probably; I'd say medium. And, a--uh--light tan shirt, as I remember it. Mr. BELIN - Anything else about him? Mr. CRAIG - No; nothing except that he looked like he was in an awful hurry. Later, though, when he saw who he thought was the same man in Fritz’s office he was wearing a white T-shirt. Mr. BELIN - What about his shirt? Mr. CRAIG - I believe, as close as I can remember, a T-shirt--a white T-shirt. Mr. BELIN - All right. But you didn't see him in a lineup? You just saw him sitting there? Mr. CRAIG - No; he was sitting there by himself in a chair--off to one side. This appears to be my mistake rather than John A's. On my website he wrote Craig saw a man in a "light colored shirt." At 12:40 P.M., Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig was standing on the south side of Elm Street when he heard a shrill whistle coming from across the street. He saw a man with sandy brown hair, wearing faded blue trousers and a light colored shirt, hurrying toward the street. A light green Nash Rambler station wagon with a chrome luggage rack, driven by a husky latin man, with short, dark hair, was was moving slowly west on Elm Street. The vehicle suddenly stopped and the man, a white male in his early 20's, wearing a light colored shirt, about 5'9” tall and 140-150 pounds, ran across the lawn that was adjacent to the Elm Street extension and got into the station wagon. Craig was unable to cross Elm Street, due to heavy traffic, and watched as the car drove west on Elm, under the triple underpass, and headed in the direction of Oak Cliff. Below, also from the website, are a series of pictures depicting what John believes was the Nash Rambler Oswald's movements toward the car. The bottom one seems to show a man in a white shirt getting into a car.

Awesome catch, Paul. Thanks so much!!! Do you know if Robert Groden has possession of the originals or copies of the slides? You posted about this a couple of days ago, but I’m not sure where the originals, or at least better copies, might be. I'd like to show this to John A. so we can put it up on the website. Reed’s two photos of McWatter’s bus printed on pp. 120-121 of The Search For Lee Harvey Oswald appear to be much better quality than the one in the Louisiana University archive. Mr. Groden credits Reed for the photos and indicates in the captions that both are printed for the first time. Also, you say above: Good question! First of all, we have to assume that Roger Craig got the quote right; after all, he wasn't officially in on the interrogations. I don't think Fritz's or any of the other "official" reports on the interviews mention Oswald's comment about Mrs. Paine's car. If Craig is correct, though, it shows that Harvey Oswald (the brown-shirted Oswald) didn't leave Dealey Plaza in the Nash Rambler. Had he done so, he would have known that it wasn't Mrs. Paine's car. It's a really strange story.

And if this was something other than a "friendly conversation," we can count on Mrs. Paine to say so? Are you kidding? Do you know her actions in this case? What we do know is that, according to Fritz's report as published in the WCR: One of the officers had told me that a cab driver, William Wayne Whaley, thought he had recognized Oswald’s picture as the man who had gotten in his cab near the bus station and rode to Beckley Avenue. I asked Oswald if he had ridden a cab on that day, and he said, “Yes, I did ride in the cab. The bus I got on near where I work got into heavy traffic and was traveling too slow, and I got off and caught a cab.” I asked him about his conversation with the cab driver, and he said he remembered that when he got in the cab a lady came up who also wanted a cab, and he told Oswald to tell the lady to “take another cab.” The handwritten notes allegedly made by Fritz confirm the above, as do the published reports by Bookhout and Thomas Kelley. There were a number of other persons present as well.

Sandy, On the Southeastern Louisiana University website there is an online listing of their historical “Archival Collections” which includes the following: KENNEDY, JOHN F., ASSASSINATION PAPERS SUPPLEMENTAL MATERIAL—Slides . . . . 3. Reed Series-Stuart L. Reed photographs (14 slides) The page can be reached HERE. I’ve written to them requesting a description of each of the slides and/or photo reproductions and the cost, but so far haven’t heard anything. Paul J. may know more about this.

Good question. Here's what John wrote about that very issue on my website: When Craig arrived at the police station he saw Oswald, thru a glass window, sitting in a chair in an office. He told Capt. Fritz this was the man he saw run down the grassy knoll and get into the Nash Rambler. The two men went into the office and confronted Harvey Oswald. Fritz told Oswald, “This man [pointing to Craig] saw you leave.” Oswald replied, “I told you people I did.” Fritz then said, “Take it easy, son—we‘re just trying to find out what happened....What about the car?” Oswald leaned forward on the desk and said, “That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine—don‘t try to drag her into this.” Oswald then sat back in his chair and said in a calm, very low voice, “Everybody will know who I am now.” Oswald heard Capt. Fritz say "car," yet he responded by using the words "station wagon." Why? Even more important was Oswald's statement, "that station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine." Did Oswald suspect that Mrs. Paine was somehow involved? Oswald knew that Roger Craig didn't see him get into the station wagon. Could Oswald have suspected that Roger Craig saw LEE Oswald getting into a station wagon? And could Oswald also have thought that this station wagon belonged to Mrs. Paine? Whatever Harvey Oswald was thinking, handcuffed and sitting in Capt. Fritz's office, he could say nothing more--he had already said too much (about Mrs. Paine and the station wagon). On April 1, 1964 Commission attorney David Belin took testimony from Roger Craig. Craig told the Commission that he saw (LEE) Oswald, wearing a white t-shirt, leave Dealey Plaza in a Nash Rambler station wagon. Belin showed Craig two sets of clothing for identification, each in a separate cardboard box. After Craig identified Oswald's clothing, Belin declined to make Craig's identification part of the Commission's record. Roger Craig thought that Belin was uninterested in his testimony and said, "He acted like the quicker he got it over with the better." In his autobiography, When They Kill a President, Craig wrote that David Belin changed his testimony 14 times. Craig told the Commission the license plates on the Rambler were NOT the same color as Texas plates, but the Commission omitted the word "NOT" and made it appear as though they were the same color as Texas plates. Craig said the Rambler station wagon was light green but the Commission changed the color to a white station wagon. NOTE: It is worth noting that light-colored Nash Rambler station wagons, with out of state license plates, were owned by two people whose names are familiar to JFK researchers. A 1962 Rambler Ambassador, 4-door station wagon was owned by Clay Shaw. A 1959 or 1960 light blue or light green Nash Rambler was owned by Lawrence Howard. Bear in mind that the same notes and reports we rely on for Harvey Oswald's statement about Mrs. Paine's station wagon also indicate that he freely admitted to the bus and taxi ride.

Sandy, All by himself, Stuart Reed is proof of the plot to frame “LHO.” Do you disagree? Paul J, Thanks, and I take your misgivings seriously about Bledsoe’s story. Even assuming you’re right, though, of all the outrages in this case it’s hard to get worked up about this one because it seems pretty clear that “Oswald” DID ride on the bus as well as in the taxi. Unless we believe Stuart Reed just magically took those two photos of the bus, and that the Dallas Police planted the bus transfer and forced McWatters to identify it as his own less less than six hours after JFK was murdered. McW may not have remembered Oswald very well, and why should he? He's a Big City bus driver, fer cryin' out loud. But McW sure as heck knew his own transfer punch. And McWatters did seem to remember that Harvey Oswald was pretty small. If I’m recalling properly, he said he picked him out of the lineup because he was the smallest guy in it. From what evidence we have of the interrogations, Harvey Oswald freely admitted that he took the bus and taxi rides. Interesting, though, that he seemed to think it was Ruth Paine’s car that Craig and the others said the white-shirted Oswald got into.) Obviously, this is hard for many people to accept, because understanding how good the evidence is for the bus and taxi ride as well as the the Nash Rambler, it’s hard to see another explanation other than the one we think is true. “Cognitive dissonance” or something? That was all part of the plan, I’ll bet. How else can we explain all those impossible but nonetheless exquisitely detailed sightings on Oct. 3-4, 1963 in and around Alice, Texas?