Jim Hargrove

John, Timing is critical about almost everything that day, but when we start splitting minutes we may be taking things too far. These are all human estimates. I wouldn’t bet that Oswald was outside the TSBD when Baker ran into it. My bet is that he didn't go down to the first floor until after the shots were fired. Carolyn Arnold (who got married and was named Carolyn Johnston in the Earl Golz article linked below), saw Oswald in the second floor lunchroom just 6 minutes or so before Baker and Truly encountered him in the vestibule beside it. http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/B Disk/Bronson Charles/Item 27.pdf

Fair enough, but the NYT article clearly referred to Truly ("building manager") telling Baker ("first officer to reach the six-story building") that Oswald was an employee

Paul, Thanks for continuing this discussion. It is an important issue. I must say, though, that from the excerpts of Baker’s testimony that you and Tony quoted, I don’t see much to truly discredit Baker’s story over time. The WC testimony was months after the assassination, when you all seem to believe Baker changed his story to put "Oswald" into the encounter. I’m hoping some people here will at least scan through Richard Gilbride’s article linked below, which does a nice job gathering at least much of the evidence in support of the Harvey Oswald encounter. Hoping we can avoid getting into a PrayerMan pissing contest, but I do think Gilbride makes some important points. Here’s one…. If the above was all a big conspiracy to shore up the lunchroom anteroom encounter, it sure happened fast. The Nov. 24, 1963 edition of the New York Times (a morning paper), included the following: “The first officer to reach the six-story building, Lieut. Curry said, found Oswald among other persons in a lunchroom. He said the building manager identified Oswald as an employee of the book-distribution concern that used the building. Oswald was not questioned then." Image above captured from DEATH OF THE LUNCHROOM HOAX by Richard Gilbride.

From Marrion Baker’s 11/22/63 affidavit (emphasis added): “As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.” The TSBD has a raised first floor. Baker had to run up the exterior staircase to reach the first floor, and then had to run up another staircase to reach the second floor. In his haste, he could easily have confused the second floor with the third or even the fourth. His description of Harvey Oswald wasn’t very accurate but was within reason, considering the light wasn’t very good in the 2nd floor lunchroom vestibule. People complain that Baker doesn’t mention the fact that “Oswald” was brought into the back room at Homicide while Baker was still writing up his affidavit and Baker doesn’t mention that in his short, handwritten note. But when Baker handed his report to Det. Marvin Johnson, he DID mention that fact. Johnson wrote: "Patrolman Baker was in the Homicide Bureau giving an affidavit and Oswald was brought into the room to talk to some Secret Service men. When Baker saw Oswald he stated, 'that is the man I stopped on the 4th floor of the School Book Depository.'" Fritz’s notes also seem to confirm the lunchroom encounter: “"claims 2nd floor coke when off came in….” I, and probably others here, believe that Postal Inspector Harry Holmes was part of the conspiracy to frame Harvey Oswald, but since the following is directly opposed to the Official Story, we should at least consider it. From the 4-page memo Holmes wrote when he attended the last Oswald interrogation on Sunday morning: When asked as to his whereabouts at the time of the shooting, he stated that when lunchtime came, and he didn’t say which floor he was on, he said one of the Negro employees invited him to eat lunch with him and he stated, “You go on down and send the elevator back up and I will join you in a few minutes.” Before he could finish whatever he was doing, he stated, the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and when he went downstairs, a policeman questioned him as to his identification and his boss stated that “he is one of our employees” whereupon the policeman told him to step aside momentarily. Following this, he simply walked out the front door of the building. Richard Gilbride has written an interesting article called DEATH OF THE LUNCHROOM HOAX. The piece begins as follows: This essay establishes beyond any rational doubt that the 2nd-floor lunchroom encounter between Lee Harvey Oswald, Marrion Baker and Roy Truly actually happened. The timing of this incident, roughly 60 seconds after the assassination, strongly suggests that Oswald was in the lunchroom during the shooting of President Kennedy.

To Paul J.... Thanks for the nicely-written post on Baker! Can you tell me how you know that Baker was right next to “Oswald” when he was writing his 11/22 affidavit?

Andrej, Little in this case matters if we don’t know the exact timings. If you’ve spent months setting up Harvey Oswald as the patsy, do you really think you would want him to appear on the steps outside the Book Depository, standing there for minute after minute to be seen and/or photographed by all kinds of building employees and spectators? Bill Shelley appears to have been involved in all of this. What do you think he would have told Oswald had he seen him on the steps? Obviously, he would have said to get back inside. I certainly wouldn’t expect to see Shelley admit that Oswald was on the steps, but wouldn’t you think some other people would have seen him? If Harvey Oswald did go out on those steps, it couldn’t have been for long. If he had, someone would have surely seen him. Where did he go from the steps? To the Nash Rambler? To McWatters’ bus? No, it's too early. You have to look at the exact timings. He probably went back to where he was told to be: in the second floor lunchroom. One of the reasons this guy was made the patsy was that he had proven that he could follow even difficult orders. He cut his wrist to fake a suicide attempt so the Soviets wouldn’t kick him out of Russia. I don't think lowly motorcycle cop Marrion Baker was in on anything. I think he probably told the truth. Witnesses saw the white-shirted Oswald get into a Nash Rambler. Where did he get the red/brown shirt to put away in the rooming house? Witnesses saw the brown-shirted Oswald ride the bus and taxi. Perhaps you don’t believe that version really happened, but would you like to go over the evidence for it? Finally, I can’t remember who it was, but didn’t someone say that Baker said in police headquarters when he saw Oswald “that’s the guy I saw in the building,” or words like that? That was before these various reports were made, you know, those reports that appeared 35 years after the fact.

Andrej, Those alleged descriptions of Harvey Oswald himself calling it a red shirt are interesting, but CE151 still looks brown to me. Both Baker and Whaley called it a brown shirt and that doesn’t strike me as unreasonable. What would be unreasonable is calling it a “white” shirt, which is what Mrs. Reid testified about. A white t-shirt was shown in the closeup capture of the fellow on the sixth floor from Dillard’s film.

I would also describe the shirt as brown, and so did the two people I emailed the image to. In fairness, though, I would also describe Sandy’s “Muted Red” Valspar swatch as brown or at least reddish-brown, so it is clear that perceptions and descriptions can vary. But Andrej also makes a crucial point: Let’s all make it absolutely clear that this shirt—call it brown or red or whatever--was NOT the arrest shirt! Any findings that fibers from the arrest shirt were on the Magic Rifle® is proof of yet more treachery from the FBI. Back to the point, though, would anyone here describe CE151 as a “white" shirt? It doesn't seem unreasonable at all to me that witnesses referred to CE151 as a brown shirt.

Andrej, Thank you for bringing this up…. I’ve been meaning to discuss that shirt ever since I saw your description of it as “bright red.” Here is the image of CE151 from Pat Speer’s site: Below is a color swatch I see as bright red. Do you see it differently? There is little doubt that color perception and monitor/displays can differ about colors, which is why I sent that image to several people I know back in March and asked what color they saw. I would describe that color as brown or reddish brown. The two replies I got back both called it brown. Do you really see it as bright red? It would be nice if others here indicated how they would describe the color of CE151. I would also ask, is that shirt closer to brown or closer to white?

Paul--I agree completely... but let’s keep going. Initial radio reports from the Dallas Police indicated that Tippit’s killer was wearing “a white jacket, white shirt and dark slacks.” The closest witness thought Tippit’s killer looked like “Oswald” but had a different hair cut in the back. Classic Oswald® was wearing a dark red or brown shirt at the TSBD, and a brown shirt at the Texas Theater. In examining testimony from people inside the TSBD, there is an obvious divide between witnesses who saw Oswald in a white shirt and those who saw Oswald in a red/brown shirt. Within seconds of the time Truly and Baker encountered Oswald in a brown shirt, Mrs. Reid saw Oswald in a white shirt. During his questioning of Mrs. Reid, WC attorney Belin tried hard to get her to say this Oswald went into the lunchroom to get his brown/red shirt. But she knew that he didn’t do that. Mrs. Reid knew he walked right on through the office and out the other door. Belin couldn’t make her change her mind. The white-shirted Oswald was seen by many entering a Nash Rambler soon after the hit. Some people don’t want to admit it, but there is a trainload of evidence indicating the brown-shirted Oswald took a bus and taxi from the TSBD to the North Beckley rooming house. Two Oswalds in the Book Depository, two Oswalds leaving Dealey Plaza. AGAIN: Two Oswalds in the Book Depository and two Oswalds leaving it, a white-shirted Oswald killing Tippit, and two Oswalds, one definitely in a brown shirt and the other probably in a white shirt, in the Texas Theater. Let’s keep moving backwards in time from Nov. 22. During the six weeks prior to the assassinations of JFK and Tippit, Classic Oswald® (Marina’s husband--the guy in the brown shirts on November 22) was demonstrably somewhere else when an Oswald impostor did all sorts of incriminating things all around the Dallas area. For example: Appearing at the Sports Drome Rifle Range on Oct. 26, Nov. 9, Nov. 10, and again on 17, several times creating a scene and once shooting at another guy's target; Nov. 2 visits Morgan's Gun Shop in Fort Worth. Nov. 6th or 7th visits the Irving Furniture Mart for a gun part and is referred to the shop where Dial Ryder works. Appearing on November 2 (undoubtedly with an “Oswald” drivers license, which supposedly didn't exist) at the Downtown Lincoln Mercury dealership where he test drove a car at wrecklessly high speeds saying he would soon come into enough money to buy a new car; On November 15, an “Oswald” lookalike showed up at the Southland Hotel parking garage (Allright Parking Systems) and applied for a job and asked how high the Southland Building was and if it had a good view of downtown Dallas; On Nov. 20th, “Oswald” went hitch-hiking on the R.L. Thornton Expressway while carrying a 4 foot long package wrapped in brown paper who introduced himself to Ralph Yates as “Lee Harvey Oswald,” discussed the President's visit, and asked to be dropped across the street from the Texas School Book Depository (where Russian-speaking “Lee Harvey Oswald” was already working). Most of the episodes above, and others, were memorialized by Sylvia Meagher and in the movie Executive Action. WHY IS THE EVIDENCE ALWAYS EXPLAINED BEST BY SUGGESTING THERE WERE TWO OSWALDS? For the first time ever, John Armstrong looked back an entire decade from 1963, looking for more clues of two Oswalds that had escaped the FBI dragnet. The result, in spades, are just a single click away: HARVEY AND LEE To Paul J: Let's have a conversation about Dorothy Garner.

To Bart Kamp: I contacted John A. and asked him if he knew Malcolm Blunt. Following is John's response. John said that he met Malcolm in the mid-1990s in Dallas. They spent a lot of time together reviewing documents and meeting people in Dallas. Malcolm traveled with John to his home in Tulsa, OK., where they spent a few days looking over John's collection of documents. During the next several years (1995-1999) John traveled to Adelphi, MD, where he and Malcolm met daily and visited the National Archives during working hours. At night they would return to an apartment they shared and review, and often copy, each other's documents. ** John and Malcolm were at the National Archives when John handled and inspected each and every item belonging to LHO that was listed on the joint FBI/DPD inventory (the National Archives no longer allows personal inspection of these items--only photographs). ** John and Malcolm were at the National Archives when John discovered that the DPD had sent 225 items to the FBI during the evening of 11/22/63, but 3 days later the FBI returned 455 items to the DPD. ** John and Malcolm were at the National Archives when John inspected the Minox camera and 1) could not open the camera to view the serial number; 2) found the camera to be unusually "heavy"; 3) had the camera weighted; 4) learned the weight of this camera was far in excess of manufacturer's specifications; 5) concluded this camera had been intentionally filled with a material that prevented the camera from opening and exposing the serial number of the camera ** John and Malcolm were at the National Archives when John asked to see the roll of Klein's microfilm that was obtained by the FBI. The archives advised the microfilm had disappeared, and they had only a box in which the microfilm had been stored ** John and Malcolm were at the National Archives when John copied an HSCA tape recording of Robert McKeown, during which he discussed meeting with LEE Oswald on Labor Day weekend in 1963. John realized this was the same day during which HARVEY Oswald and his wife and child were at Lake Pontchartrain with the Murrets. McKeown also discussed his close, long time personal relationship with Castro. ** John and Malcolm were at the National Archives when John located a document (WC testimony of James Cadigan) wherein Allen Dulles had altered testimony. ** John and Malcolm were at the National Archives when John discovered that the US Postal money order, allegedly used to pay for the Mannlicher Carcano rifle, had disappeared--there were only photographs of the money order. ** John and Malcolm were at the National Archives when John found a document wherein the WC agreed to accept FBI photographs of evidence in lieu of the physical evidence. This, of course, provides the opportunity to alter or manufacture any and all evidence. Have you, Bart Kamp, ever visited the National Archives? On one occasion, Malcolm and John drove to Rhode Island where they met and had a lobster dinner with former Marine Richard Cyr, who knew and spent a lot of time with LEE Oswald in Japan. Malcolm and John then drove to Leeds, MA., where they met and videotape recorded an interview with Dr. Milton Kurian, a NYC psychiatrist who interviewed HARVEY Oswald in April, 1953 (see U-Tube video). On another occasion, when John and Malcolm were together in Dallas, John brought Dr. Kurian and his wife to Dallas, TX for a JFK Lancer conference. John also brought Palmer McBride to this conference, a man who had worked with HARVEY Oswald at the Pfisterer Dental Laboratory in New Orleans in 1957-58 while LEE Oswald and Richard Cyr were together in the Marine Corps in Japan. Malcolm spent several days with Palmer, who had recently retired from a 40 year career working for NASA. Malcolm also spoke with Harry Vance (Palmer's long-time friend from N.O) who also met and remembered HARVEY Oswald at the Pfisterer Dental Lab in 1957-58. Then there was William Wulf, President of the N.O. Amateur Astronomy Association (1957-58), who met HARVEY Oswald on numerous occasions in early 1958. When HARVEY Oswald visited Wulf's home, and began discussing communism, Wulf's father told young Oswald to "get out of his house." Please ask Malcolm for his impression and opinion of Palmer McBride and Harry Vance's credibility. Please record Malcolm's response for the benefit of forum members. Have you, Bart Kamp, ever personally interviewed a witness who personally knew or worked with LHO during the 1950s. Malcolm accompanied John during one of his (John's) many visits to the home of Marina Oswald Porter. It was during this visit that Marina gave John all of the original color slides from Dr. Norton's examination of HARVEY Oswald when exhumed in 1981. John copied the slides, returned the original slides to Marina, and posted some of the slides on line. Did you, Bart Kamp, ever meet Marina or June or Rachel ? I look forward to posting your replies to the above questions for the benefit of forum members. Since you seem to be too busy and too important to hang out with us mere mortals here on the Ed Forum, I am also going to PM you this message to make sure you don't miss it. Forum software should email it to you also. As for evidence for two Oswalds at the TSBD, I have posted it in this very thread, posted it in many other threads on this forum, and have posted it all over HarveyandLee.net. You just pretend it doesn't exist. That doesn't make it go away.

Paul, Regarding your post on the previous page.... No doubt certain Warren Commission apologists will just call that one of those amazing coordinated typos... you know, the kind of thing that happens all the time... like Magic Bullets, Magic Postal Money Orders, disappearing wallets, etc. As you probably know, John A. has written extensively on how the FBI altered the Dictabelt time stamps by transferring them tp audio to tape, editing the tape, and then re-cutting new Dictabelts. Here is a link directly to the altered Dictabelt discussion: https://harveyandlee.net/Tippit/Tippit.html#Dictabelt

Says the man who thinks the Warren Commission got it right!

Butch Burroughs told author James Douglass that two Oswalds were arrested in the Texas Theater. From p. 292-293 of JFK and the Unspeakable: Butch Burroughs, who witnessed Oswald’s arrest, startled me in his interview by saying he saw a second arrest occur in the Texas Theater only “three or four minutes later.” He said the Dallas Police then arrested “an Oswald lookalike.” Burroughs said the second man “looked almost like Oswald like he was his brother or something….” Douglass goes on to talk about Bernard J. Haire, owner of a store just two doors away from the theater, who saw the Oswald lookalike taken out the back of the theater. For decades, Haire thought he had seen the arrest of “Lee Harvey Oswald.”

Bart, I wouldn't call that proof, but it is good evidence! I really hope Oswald WAS outside the theater during the shooting, because that would be the quickest, simplest way to disprove the entire Warren Commission nonsense! As for the evidence two Oswald's, or at least two people who looked like Classic Oswald, one in a white shirt (as seen by many witnesses) and one in a brown or dark red shirt (also as seen by many witnesses) were inside the TSBD, just look at this image of the white-shirted Oswald in the TSBD window: Many people saw the Oswald in the darker shirt. There’s also tons of evidence of two LHO’s in the Book Depository. For example, one left in a bus and taxi, the other in a Nash Rambler. No doubt you’ll want to tell me that one Oswald never rode on a bus and taxi. Then how do you explain how U.S. Army civilian employee Stuart Reed just happened to take high quality color photographs on the same roll of film of the front entrance of the TSBD, WcWatters’ bus 1213, and the front of the Texas Theater just as “Lee Harvey Oswald was being dragged out. Remarkable coincidence? No, obviously a planned operation designed to capture the movements of one of the “Oswalds,” i.e, the patsy. Harvey and Lee Depart the TSBD

That’s easy. You will not admit it but many of us here know that the Tippit murder was a planned event, part of the set-up of Russian-speaking Lee HARVEY Oswald by American-born LEE Harvey Oswald. Who do we think was instrumental in this? None other than Captain Westbrook, the personnel director who had the magic disappearing wallet with Hidell and Oswald IDs at 10th and Patton and the Eisenhower-style jacket AND, I’ll bet, the .39 revolver used to murder Tippit, all given to him by LEE Oswald. Around 2:15 PM Sgt. Hill (assigned to Westbrook’s personnel office) brought the .38 revolver taken from HARVEY Oswald at the theater, to Capt. Westbrook's office. This gun should have been taken immediately to Homicide and Robbery, but Hill brought the gun to the personnel office. This .38 revolver remained in Capt. Westbrook's personnel office for the next hour! Our bet is that Westbrook secretly switched the revolver now laying on his desk, taken from HARVEY Oswald at the theater, with the .38 revolver used to murder Tippit and given to him by LEE Oswald. One hour later the .38 revolver used to murder Tippit was initialed by police officers in Westbrook's office, entered into evidence, and turned over to the FBI later that evening. At 3:15 PM Det. Baker arrived from Homicide and Robbery to pick up the gun. Before surrendering the gun to Det. Baker, officers McDonald, Bentley, Carroll, and Hill initialed the .38 revolver (see above). THE GUN PICKED UP BY DET. BAKER AND ENTERED INTO EVIDENCE was now the gun used to murder Tippit. The gun taken from HARVEY Oswald at the Texas Theater disappeared and was never seen again. Det. Baker took possession of the .38 revolver and 6 rounds of live ammunition (3 Western .38 Special & 3 Remington-Peters .38 Special) and then returned to Homicide and Robbery. --Above adapted from John Armstrong’s write-up on my website: The Murder of J.D. Tippit

Game over. Make all the excuses you can conjure.

Tony, The white-shirted Oswald may have been starting to walk down the stairs from the balcony when a number of Dallas cops encountered him, which doesn't, however, mean I think Brewer was honest. From John's write-up on November 22, 1963: The police dispatcher reported that the suspect was wearing "dark trousers and a white t-shirt" and "Have information a suspect just went in the Texas Theater on West Jefferson ... supposed to be hiding in balcony." Deputy Sheriff Bill Courson entered the front of the theater, hurried up the stairs to the balcony, and was "reasonably satisfied in his own mind" that he met Lee Harvey Oswald com­ing down the front stairs. If this young man was LEE Oswald, then he was wearing a white t-shirt and dark trousers. Lt. Cunningham and Detective J.B. Toney encountered the young man and began to question him, perhaps because he matched the description of the suspect. As Deputy Sheriff Buddy Walthers rushed up the stairs to the balcony, he saw the officers as they were questioning the young man. Don't forget how the Texas Theater was laid out, with the stairs to the balcony near the entrance of the building.

What a pitiful excuse! Right up there with the dog ate my homework (and the original Dallas Dictabelts). Many witnesses knew Tippit was shot well before 1:15. From John A's writeup on my website of The Murder of J.D. Tippit. The Warren Commission concluded that “the shooting of Tippit has been established at approximately 1:15 or 1:16 p.m.” That conclusion, however, was based on the need to give HARVEY Oswald sufficient time to walk from the North Beckley rooming house to 10th and Patton. The best evidence indicates that Tippit was actually killed at about 1:06 p.m. Several witnesses, including Frank Cimino, Albert Austin, and Francis Kinneth thought the time was slightly earlier… closer to 1:00 PM. 1:00 PM. About 1:00 PM Frank Cimino, who lived at 403 E. 10th St., heard four shots and saw a police car parked on the street and a police officer lying on the ground. He walked across the street and stood beside Helen Markham, who was the first person to approach Tippit as he lay dying on the street. 1:00 PM. At approximately 1:00 PM Francis Kinneth heard two or three shots and saw a policeman laying on the pavement near the front of his police car. 1:00 PM. Sometime after 1:00 PM Albert Austin heard two or three shots and saw a policeman lying in front of a police car on the left front side. 1:06 PM. Helen Markham had just arrived at the northwest corner of 10th & Patton, en route to catch the city bus one block south at Jefferson & Patton (at 1:15 PM). She told the Warren Commission it was "6 or 7 minutes after 1." She saw a police car drive slowly past her and pull over to the curb. She watched as a young man walked over to Tippit's car and began talking with him thru the passenger side window. A minute later the young man stood up and backed away from the car as the officer slowly got out of his car. As the policeman began walking toward the front of the patrol car the young man pulled a gun and shot the officer. Markham began screaming and shouting as she watched the young man run west across Patton Street and hurry south toward Jefferson Blvd. Markham hurried over to the policeman, lying next to his car on the pavement. She told the Warren Commission that very soon an unknown man arrived: "He had a hat on. I thought he was a policeman." This man was likely Sgt. Croy, who was wearing a white police hat. As a reserve officer Croy was not allowed to carry a gun, which may have caused Markham to wonder if he was, in fact, a policeman. Croy, according to his Warren Commission testimony, interviewed Markham for the next 5-10 minutes and then turned her over to officers when they arrived on the scene. If the man wearing a hat was not Croy, who Markham thought was a policeman, then who was it? 1:06 PM. Mrs. Margie Higgins, who lived at 417 East 10th St. was watching television and later told reporters, "Well, I was watching the news on television and for some reason the announcer turned and looked at the clock and said the time was six minutes after one (1:06 PM). At that point I heard the shots." Mrs. Higgins described the shooter and said, "He definitely was not the man they showed on television." Mrs. Higgins was perhaps the first citizen to call the police (circa 1:06 PM). 1:06-1:07 PM. Mrs. Frank Wright lived at 501 East 10th St, a half block from where Tippit was shot. She heard 3 shots, looked out her window, and saw a man lying in the street. She ran to her phone, dialed "0," and said to the operator, "Call the police, a man's been shot." When the police received Mrs. Wright's call they pushed a button that connected directly with the ambulance dispatcher, and an ambulance was dispatched immediately. Mrs. Wright then ran outside to join her husband and said, "It wasn't a minute until the ambulance got there." Mrs. Wright was probably the second citizen to call the police (circa 1:06-1:07 PM). When Frank Wright ran outside he saw "a woman come down from her porch, about three or four doors from the intersection of 10th & Patton, the same side of the street as Tippit's car.... I heard her shout, 'Oh, he's been shot!,' throwing up her hands. Then she went back up toward the house." This woman, likely Mrs. Ann McCravey, was never interviewed by the DPD, the FBI, or the WC. She was, however, interviewed by the BBC. 1:06-1:07 PM. Mrs. Doris Holan lived directly across the street from the Tippit shooting, on the 2nd floor at 409 E Tenth Street. Mrs. Holan had just returned home from her job a few minutes after 1:00 PM when she heard several gunshots. From her 2nd floor bedroom window she had possibly the best view of the murder scene, and saw Tippit lying on the street near the left front of his patrol car. Mrs. Holan observed the shooter as he was walking across Virginia Davis's lawn toward Patton. Mrs. Holan also noticed a 2nd police car parked in the narrow driveway between two houses directly across the street (car #207, occupied by Capt. Westbrook and Sgt. Croy). Tippit's car was parked on 10th St., directly in front of the narrow driveway, and prevented the 2nd police car from driving onto 10th St. Mrs. Holan watched as a man, who I believe was Capt. Westbrook, get out of the police car and walk over to Tippit's body. The man appeared to observe the bullet wound on Tippit's head, and then quickly returned to the police car that was backing up toward the alley. If this man was not Capt. Westbrook, then who was it? In 1990 a resident of the neighborhood was interviewed by JFK researcher Prof. Bill Pulte, on the condition of anonymity. This resident said that he heard that a man walked down the driveway and approached Tippit just after the shooting. In January, 1968, Playboy magazine interviewed Jim Garrison. In response to the Garrison interview a reader wrote to Playboy and said, “I read Playboy's Garrison interview with perhaps more interest than most readers. I was an eyewitness to the shooting of policeman Tippit in Dallas on the afternoon President Kennedy was murdered. I saw two men, neither of them resembling the pictures I later saw of Lee Harvey Oswald, shoot Tippit and run off in opposite directions. There were at least half a dozen other people who witnessed this. My wife convinced me that I should say nothing, since there were other eyewitnesses. Her advice and my cowardice undoubtedly have prolonged my life--or at least allowed me now to tell the true story....” (Playboy, January 1968, Vol. 15, No 1, pg 11) 1:06-1:07 PM. Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig was searching the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository, when a rifle was discovered. Craig wrote, “… At that exact moment an unknown Dallas police officer came running up the stairs and advised Capt. Fritz that a Dallas policeman had been shot in the Oak Cliff area. I instinctively looked at my watch. The time was 1:06 PM." NOTE: The 2nd police car, parked between two houses on a very narrow driveway, could not be seen by most witnesses to the shooting, including Clemmons, Burt, Smith, Wright, Virginia Davis, Barbara Davis). But Mrs. Holan, who lived directly across the street from where Tippit was parked, did see the 2nd police vehicle. Both she and Aquilla Clemmons saw two men at the scene of the shooting, and one of those men came from the 2nd police vehicle. The location of the 2nd police vehicle, parked between the two houses on a very narrow driveway, was no accident. The precise location of this vehicle, hidden between the two houses, and the arrival of Westbrook, Croy, Tippit, and LEE Oswald at the same time and at the same location is the best indication that Tippit's murder was pre-planned and involved both LEE Oswald the occupants of the 2nd police vehicle. 1:06-1:07 PM. Barbara Jeanette Davis heard the shots, walked to her front door, and saw the shooter walking thru her yard toward Patton Street. She then called the police and reported that a police officer had been shot. Barbara Davis was probably the third citizen to call the police (circa 1:07-1:08 PM). Her sister in law, Virginia Davis, also heard the shots and looked out the screen door of her home as the shooter (LEE Oswald) was cutting across the yard in front of her house. She watched as he threw two empty shell casings onto the ground. Virginia testified before the Warren Commission: Mrs. Davis. We saw the boy cutting across the street. Mr. Belin. Then what did you do or see? Mrs. Davis. After he disappeared around the corner we ran out in the front yard and down to see what had happened. Mr. Belin. Then is that when you saw the policeman? Mrs. Davis. I saw the policeman lying on the street. Mr. Belin. All right. Did you see or do anything else? Did you see anyone else that you know come up to the policeman? Mrs. Davis. No sir; there was a lot of people around there. Mr. Belin. Do you remember about what time of day this was? Mrs. Davis. I wouldn't say for sure. But it was about 1:30, between 1:30 and 2. Mr. Belin. All right, after this, did police come out there?Mrs. Davis. Yes; they was already there.Mr. Belin. By the time you got out there?Mrs. Davis. Yes, sir.Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?Mrs. Davis. Well, we just stood out there and watched. You know, tried to see how it all happened. But we saw part of it.Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?Mrs. Davis. We stood out there until after the ambulance had come and picked him up. 1:07-1:08 PM. Virginia Davis told the Warren Commission that after the shooter (LEE Oswald) ran around the corner of her house a policeman "was already there." I believe this policeman was reserve officer Sgt. Croy who, along with Capt. Westbrook, was sitting in police car #207 when LEE Oswald shot and killed Tippit. Westbrook drove away in the police car, while Croy remained at the scene. If the police officer seen by Virginia Davis seconds after the shooting was not Croy, then who was it? 1:07-1:08 PM. After cutting thru the Davis's front yard the shooter (LEE Oswald) hurried onto Patton Street and walked past the rear of William Scoggins' taxi, which was parked at the corner of 10th & Patton. As the shooter walked south on Patton Street, Scoggins called his dispatcher (D.G. Graham) and reported that a police officer had been shot. The dispatcher called for an ambulance, which arrived within two minutes according to Scoggins, and then called the police. The taxi company dispatcher was probably the 4th citizen to call to the police (circa 1:07-1:08 PM). 1:07-1:08 PM. The shooter hurried south on Patton Street, where he was first seen by Ted Callaway and then by L.J. Lewis, who was at Johnny Reynolds used car lot at the corner of Jefferson Blvd. and Patton (510 E. Jefferson Blvd). Lewis heard 3 or 4 shots, and soon saw a man running south on Patton while attempting to load a pistol that he was holding in his right hand. Lewis saw the man as he turned the corner and began walking west on Jefferson Blvd. Lewis went to the car lot's office and was probably the 5th citizen to call the police (circa 1:07-1:08 PM). 1:08-1:09 PM. Domingo Benavides was sitting in his truck on the opposite side of the street facing Tippit's car, and watched LEE Oswald as he left the scene. He remembered, "the back of his [LEE Oswald's] head seemed like his hairline sort of went square instead of tapering off. His hair didn't taper off, it kind of went down and squared off." HARVEY Oswald's hairline, as we know from numerous photographs taken at the police station, extended well down his neck and past his collar line--it was not "squared off" as described by Benavides. A few minutes after the shooter disappeared from sight, Benavides got out of his truck and walked about 15 feet to Tippit's squad car. He told the Warren Commission that he used the police radio, notified the police dispatcher that a police officer had been shot, and gave the address as 410 East 10th Street. However, Benavides's voice is not heard on the police dictabelt nor is his conversation with the police dispatcher written on the DPD police transcript. It is very possible that Benavides saw police Capt. Westbrook, the 2nd police car, and Sgt. Croy in uniform when Tippit was shot, but dared not report that two Dallas police officers were involved in the Tippit shooting. 1:09-1:10 PM. T.F. Bowley was driving west on 10th Street and arrived a few minutes after the shooting. He looked at his watch--the time was 1:10 PM. Domingo Benavides told the Warren Commission that as he was using the police radio to report the shooting of a police officer, a man was standing beside him. This man was T. F. Bowley, who also used the police radio to report the shooting. An original DPD police transcript, found in the National Archives, lists the time of Bowley's call to the police as 1:10 PM. Bowley's voice can be heard on the police dictabelt and his report to the police dispatcher is written on the DPD police transcript. 1:09-1:10 PM. Ted Callaway worked at a used car lot on Jefferson Blvd., across the alley from where Virginia and Barbara Davis lived. He heard the shooting, and soon saw the shooter hurrying south on Patton at a distance of about 60 ft. Callaway described him as "white male, 27, 5'11", 165 lbs, black wavy hair, fair complected, wearing a light gray Eisenhower type jacket, dark trousers, and a white shirt." When interviewed and filmed many years later, Callaway again said, "he had on a white Eisenhower type jacket and a white t-shirt"--once again, the shooter was not wearing a brown shirt, just a white t-shirt. After the shooter walked around the corner at Patton and Jefferson Blvd. and disappeared, Callaway hurried one block north to 10th & Patton. The ambulance arrived and Tippit's body, with help from Callaway and Bowley, was loaded in the ambulance and driven to the nearby Methodist hospital. Ambulance driver Clayton Butler told the HSCA, "I was on the scene one minute or less. From the time we received the call in our dispatch office until Officer Tippit was pronounced dead at Methodist Hospital was approximately four minutes." (circa 1:13-1:14).

Good question. I think white shirted Oswald was supposed to be seen on the sixth floor, and then was supposed to get out of the building and out of Dealey Plaza seen by no one, or as few people as possible. John A. thinks he got off the front passenger elevator on the second floor, headed toward the back staircase where he meant to go down, but got spooked when he heard Truly and Baker coming up (or, less likely, Adams and Styles going down) and turned to the door immediately to his right and walked into the office to be seen by Mrs. Reid.

I also think Baker and Truly confronted a fellow from the six floor, but it couldn’t have happened on the fourth floor because that would have been right in front of Dorothy Garner, who surely would have remembered such a dramatic encounter. Garner watched Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles run down the stairs to the first floor and then she saw Baker and Truly as they ran past her on the 4th floor and continued running up the stairway. I kind of doubt the encounter took place on the floor right below her, either, but I suppose that is possible. I think Baker encountered Classic Oswald® by the second floor lunch room, wearing a brown shirt (some people say it was dark red, but it certainly wasn’t white). He did not have a Coke in his hand. Truly surely is a major suspect here, but I think Mrs. Reid was nothing but a problem for the Warren Commission. A BIG, BIG part of this whole setup was to get a fellow who looked like Classic Oswald® do all sorts of incriminating things, from all those visits to the Sports Drome rifle range and other places around Dallas. Why stop on the day of the assassination? Why not put this fellow who looked like LHO on the TSBD sixth floor and parade him around with a gun? When the shooting was over, he had to get out of Dodge being seen by the fewest witnesses possible. I think he wore a white shirt on the sixth floor because Classic Oswald probably worked that way often during the day, taking off his overshirt and working in a white t-shirt. But Mrs. Reid presented a serious problem for the Warren Commission. Not only did she see him with a Coke, but she also saw him in a white shirt, without anything over it. During her testimony, look how hard Belin tried to make Mrs. Reid get LHO back into the lunch room to retrieve the brown (or dark red) shirt and a jacket! But she wouldn’t put him there! If the conspirators were setting up Classic Oswald for six weeks prior to the assassination by impersonating him in compromising positions, why stop on the Big Day? At least some of the witnesses at 10th & Patton thought Tippit’s killer looked like Oswald, including some of the witnesses closest to the hit. Are we to believe that was a coincidence? Funny about all those reports of two Oswalds arrested in the Texas Theater. Just another coincidence?

Please everyone, don't hijack this thread into another endless Prayer Man controversy! This thing is long enough, and I know from past experience that you guys never stop arguing about Prayer Man. If someone ever produces real proof, I'll be real interested, but I've yet to see anything approaching it. Please... start your own thread.

Thank you, Mr. McBride. I was getting set to jump in here about this very issue. After Officer Tippit’s body was placed in an ambulance and taken to Methodist Hospital, Dallas cops Davenport and Bardin helped carry Tippit into the emergency room and watched as medics tried to revive him. Dr. Richard Liguori declared Tippit dead at 1:15 pm.

This encounter can also be explained if there was someone who looked like “Lee Harvey Oswald” appearing in the 6th floor window(s), wearing a white shirt, and soon trying to escape the building. Note the white shirt in the closeup capture from Dillard’s film. If the white-shirted Oswald’s job was to set up the patsy (the Oswald in the red or brown shirt), when the white shirted Oswald was done parading around on the 6th floor, he had to make an escape, which is the subject of this thread. John A. thinks the white-shirted Oswald was probably starting to walk down the rear staircase from the second to the first floor when he heard someone coming up and decided to open the door immediately to his right and entered the TSBD office where he was seen by Mrs. Reid. Mr. BELIN. How did you know the person you saw was Lee Harvey Oswald on the second floor? Mrs. REID. Because it looked just like him. Mr. BELIN. You mean the picture with the name Lee Harvey Oswald? Mrs. REID. Oh, yes. Mr. BELIN. But you had seen him in the building? Mrs. REID. Other than that day, sure. Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him? Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. What color I couldn’t tell you. Soon after, this white-shirted Oswald was seen by a number of witnesses entering the Nash Rambler. He went on to his final act of setting up the patsy: killing Officer Tippit and then moving off in the direction of the Texas Theater, where the brown-shirted Oswald was already looking for his contact. Remember those DPD radio dispatches of the Tippit killer in a WHITE SHIRT! We have a description on this suspect over here on Jefferson. Last seen about 300 block of East Jefferson. He's a white male, about thirty, five eight, (siren) black hair, slender, wearing white jacket, a white shirt and dark slacks. (Sirens) If this analysis is correct, it of course means that Mrs. Reid mistook the white-shirted Oswald for the brown-shirted Oswald. It also means that Roy Truly vouched for the white-shirted Oswald. Isn’t it amazing that unarmed Roy Truly apparently led the way in front of gun-toting Baker in search of an assassin who might certainly be heavily armed. What bravery!

DOES THIS CLIP REALLY SHOW SHELLEY AND LOVELADY? Several people here seem to believe that the clip above shows William Shelley and Billy Lovelady moving towards the scattered Presidential procession…. Why do they believe that? Is there any real evidence for this belief? Some of these people tell us that Lovelady was wearing a checkered shirt that day, but how do we know that? The evidence is equally good that he was wearing a red and white vertically striped shirt the day JFK was assassinated: Will someone please prove that Lovelady was really wearing a checkered shirt on 11/22/63? In their earliest statements made in their own handwriting, both Shelley and Lovelady indicated that they almost immediately went back into the Book Depository building after the shooting. Both Shelley and Lovelady wrote affidavits in their own handwriting on 11/22/63, just a few hours after the assassination, and both indicated that they went back into the building quickly. Moments after the last shot was fired at President Kennedy, Shelley and Lovelady were at the back of the TSBD on the 1st floor, and both men then accompanied police officers as they searched the building. In Shelley's 11/22/63 affidavit he wrote, "I went back to the building & went inside & called my wife & told her what happened. I was on the first floor then & I stayed at the elevator & was told not to let anyone out of the elevator. I left the elevator and went with the police on up to the other floors." (see affidavit below). In Lovelady's 11/22/63 affidavit he wrote, "After it was over we went back into the building and went to work took some police officers up to search the building" (see affidavit below). Sorry to repeat these images once more, but I do think these first affidavits in Lovelady and Shelley’s own hands are important. This was before the Warren Commission twisted everything. Read the affidavits again and tell me how these men could possibly be shown in the clip above. In the film clip at the top of this post, one man seems to be just passing the other. In his 3/18/64 FBI report, remarkably different from his 11/22/63 DPD affidavit, Shelley told the FBI, "Immediately following the shooting, Billy N. Lovelady and I accompanied some uniformed police officers to the railroad yards just west of the building and returned through the west side door of the building about ten minutes later." Where are the police in the frames above? You can see well ahead of the two circled men and well behind them. These two unidentified men do not appear to be accompanying any police officers. Why do both Lovelady and Shelley add more and more time to their return to the TSBD as the weeks and months after the assassination went by? Will someone please explain to me why several people here believe Shelley and Lovelady are depicted in the clip above? Why should anyone believe that?