Jim Hargrove

Is there one single thing about Oswald in DPD custody that isn’t bizarre? He was interrogated for 12 hours but no notes appeared about those sessions until the ARRB was created? And then they’re virtually nothing. Sheesh! I was looking at a floor plan of DPD headquarters circa 1963, and there was a room there called “Recording Room,” or something close to that. But no recordings were made of the alleged assassin of a sitting U.S. President and a uniformed Dallas cop? Not even stenographers notes? Not even complete cop notes? Who’s kidding who? My bet is that as soon as he began to realize what he was up against, he started singing. “Hey, I’m a U.S. intelligence agent, and I’m on the FBI payroll. Just call Mr. [fill in the blank]. What a surprise he was murdered in custody. He could never be allowed to speak openly. A trial would have been unthinkable.

OK, I finally gave up and sent the photo to John A. He said that it is a photo of American-born LEE Oswald taken in Corregidor. This was the Oswald with the “bull neck,” John Pic’s real half-brother. This picture was taken in early 1958, when LEE Oswald was in the Philippines and HARVEY Oswald was in New Orleans. From a section of Harvey and Lee called “January—Lee in the Philippines:” On January 22nd the squad was put aboard an LST (Landing Ship Tank) en route to Corregidor, a distance of 40 miles. They set up a radar bubble and arranged sleeping quarters in the remains of a hospital that was bombed during World War II. In Corregidor, Zack Stout, George Wilkins, Bobby Warren, and Oswald spent countless off-duty hours exploring caves, tunnels and old battle sites from WWII. Oswald took numerous color photographs of Stout, Wilkins, Warren and fellow Marines that are now located in the National Archives. I obtained copies of these photographs and sent them to Zack Stout, and he was able to identify several of his former Marine buddies. George A. "Hans" Wilkins, Jr. remembered that Oswald was on mess duty the entire time he was there and became a proficient cook.9 A week or so after their unit arrived they were visited by actor John Wayne, who was filming The Barbarian and the Geisha. Wayne flew overhead in a helicopter and asked permission to land. When the chopper landed Wayne was greeted by dozens of Marines who rushed out, crowded around him, and then escorted him to the NCO club where he had more than a few drinks. [H&L p. 186]

Thanks for the kind words, Robert…. Since you brought up the Walker bullet, I can’t resist a quick recap that helps show that just about every bit of the evidence against “Lee Harvey Oswald” is phony. A few years ago, David Von Pein thought he would show how clear it was that “Oswald’s” Magic Bullets® were used in both the JFK and Walker shootings, and so he posted this fine comparison of the two bullets now in evidence:  At the time, I couldn’t help but point out that Mr. Von Pein had discovered another Magic Bullet®! The bullet Mr. Von Pein so proudly waved about believing that it was used by “Oswald” to shoot at Edwin Walker, is clearly a copper jacketed bullet. But as you can see in the original report filed by Dallas police, it was a steel-jacketed bullet dug out of Mr. Walker's house. Somehow, perhaps while at the National Archives, it transformed itself into a copper jacketed bullet! Magic rifles, magic money orders, magic deposit slips… and now yet another magic bullet! Do you suppose there is something fishy about all this so-called evidence? Do you suppose "Lee Harvey Oswald" was framed? Nah... it's just magic!

John, I don't recall seeing this photo before. It doesn't appear to be among the 77 photos collected in "The Evolution of Lee Harvey Oswald" poster Jack White and John Armstrong prepared. I just did a Google image search of it and there are simply no matches. That's weird. Most of the other "Lee Harvey Oswald" images have hits all over the place.

I was talking to John A. on Monday and told him that I was planning to take the week off but couldn't even get through Monday morning because I was so obsessed with this case. He thought that much of the reason is that we're actually making real progress in solving it, and I think he's right.

Micah, I don't recall ever hearing that. Do you have a reference to her denial?

I don’t know anything about the monkey virus business, John. Is this some Judyth Baker thing? Also, the photo above on the left side is unfamiliar to me. Do you know anything about it?

PLEASE STOP HIDING THE MUELLER REPORT! JUST LET US READ IT, WITHOUT REDACTIONS! WHAT ARE YOU AFRAID OF? PLEASE.... JUST LET US READ IT!

Rick, I left Roscoe White off the list because I’m not aware of ANY reference to where he was or what he was doing on the day JFK was assassinated. Do you have any info on that? Also, I don’t think he killed J.D. Tippit, regardless of young Robinson's story. I agree completely with the post above by Paul Jolliffe. But your overall suspicion seems well grounded. After all, Roscoe White’s connection with one of the Lee Harvey Oswalds goes all the way back to the U.S. Marines (where he knew American-born LEE Oswald), and he was clearly directly involved with the fraudulent “backyard photos.” Any not-well-known additional info you have on Roscoe White would be most appreciated.

Interesting that Hill volunteered to produce a carbon copy with all three signatures of the 11/22/63 report that apparently vanished. Isn't it amazing that no one on the WC was interested, apparently, in seeing that vanished report signed by three Dallas cops! I'm not really convinced that Sgt. Hill was a conspirator. He may just have been used by Westbrook, his boss. Steve--Are you aware of any other references to that 11/22 report?

Captain W.R. Westbrook had possession of three critical pieces of “evidence” within minutes of J.D. Tippit’s murder: the disappearing 2nd “Oswald” wallet allegedly found at Tenth and Patton, the Eisenhower-style jacket he and Mackey allegedly found under a car, and the .38 revolver allegedly used to kill Tippit. Chain-of-custody for all three items is highly suspect. Westbrook ordered a list of theater patrons be made which completely disappeared. He could not believably account for much of his time that afternoon. John Armstrong believes that Westbrook and Kenneth Croy were in a police car in the narrow driveway by the Tippit murder scene observed by Mrs. Holan and accounting for much of the eyewitness confusion at Tenth and Patton. Since he had a desk job as personnel director at DPD headquarters, it is hard to understand why Westbrook was involved in all this detective work. He even kept possession for more than an hour of the revolver allegedly taken from Oswald. According to Larry Sneed, Westbrook became an advisor to the Saigon police in 1966, suggesting U.S. Intel connections. Sgt. Gerry Hill, a former television reporter, was assigned to Capt. Westbrook’s personnel bureau. He “discovered” the shells and the paper bag (which completely disappeared) on the sixth floor of the TSBD. At the theater, he climbed up to the balcony and may have been involved with the Oswald look-alike apparently arrested there and released. In a police car leaving the theater, Hill, with other DPD officers, examined the “other” wallet of the “other” Oswald, which, surprise!, also had Hidell identification. He brought the .38 revolver allegedly taken from Oswald to Westbrook’s personnel office, where it remained for more than an hour. Before anyone else announced the story, just hours after the assassination, Hill went on television and related the saga of Oswald’s defection and how he married Marina, a Russian woman from Minsk. When asked how he knew all this information, he said he got it from Westbrook. Reserve Officer Kenneth Croy appeared to have been the first Dallas cop on the scene after Tippit’s murder. He claimed that an unknown person gave him the Tenth and Patton wallet with the Oswald and Hidell ID’s and claimed that he then gave the wallet to Westbrook. He claimed to have interviewed several witnesses at the scene, but didn’t take any of their names or remember much about them. He claimed he was told by unidentified DPD employees that he wasn't needed for the rest of the day and then went to have lunch with his estranged wife. A couple of days later, he stood next to Jack Ruby when Ruby lunged forward and shot Oswald. He may have helped Ruby enter the building. Reading his WC testimony, it is obvious how suspicious the WC was in regard to his actions, at least in relation to Jack Ruby. I tried to keep this as brief as possible. Comments would be appreciated.

Thanks again for helping me out with that. Bart Kamp posted an interview of a KDOS employee named Sam Pate in which he seemed to say there was a rumor that a rifle was found in the grass that may have been tossed out a window at the west end of the Book Depository. It doesn’t say that literally, but if you look at the top of page 6 of the interview, you’ll probably agree that is what Pate meant to say. It probably isn’t true (and if it was we surely wouldn’t have been told about by the “investigators”), but it started making me wonder if there weren’t two reasons for the whole TSBD spectacle. First, to set up the patsy. And second, to act as a diversion for the real kill shots, which surely came from the front. It would make perfect sense. To John B – When John Pic told the Warren Commission “the Lee Harvey Oswald I met in November, 1962 was not the same Lee Oswald I had known 10 years previous," one of the distinguishing features he noted was that the “LHO” he met in 1962 “no longer had a bull neck.” It’s often hard to trust the photographic record, but John and I think it was American-born LEE Oswald who was two inches taller, heavier, and had a bull neck,” as opposed to the Russian-speaking Oswald.

Ah... I just flipped through Robert Groden's "Search for Lee Harvey Oswald" and I see it is shown on page. 109. I had forgotten that. Robert identifies it as "the west end window."

Thanks, guys. When John sent me the image, I had just assumed (usually a mistake in this case) that it was from the SE corner window... so this is news to me. Can you tell me how you know for sure the close-up is from the SW side of the building? Is it that Dillard Exhibit “B” was cropped to exclude the SW window? The AARC link Paul J. included above looks like it leads to a printed page from the WC volumes. I doubt that the halftone in a printed book would contain much detail at all.

To Jim D.... I LOVED your work on Garrison and the JFK assassination, and your work on recent American history, but, AGAIN.... WHY CAN'T I READ THE MUELLER REPORT? WHERE IS IT? DO YOU DEFEND HIDING IT?

Trying to get back on topic, are there any clues to who was on the sixth floor of the Book Depository building parading around as an assassin of JFK? Probably so.... The first image below is a closeup capture from Dallas Morning News photographer Tom Dillard’s film taken seconds after the shots rang out in Dealey Plaza. This extreme closeup zooms in on just a part of the window closest to the so-called “sniper’s nest” on the SE corner of the TSBD. The face and right shoulder of a human figure appears to have been captured by Dillard there. John A. added dotted lines to the image to show what we believe are the figure’s hairline, chin, and collar. Note the white shirt under the collar line. Who could this man be? Have we seen that hairline before? Could the image at the left above be the same fellow who spent weeks leading up to the assassination creating scenes at the Sports Drome rifle range, the Downtown Lincoln Mercury dealership, the Southland Hotel, etc? Could it be the same man who shared his identity for years in a Cold War spy game with a Russian-speaking emigre who traveled to the Soviet Union and eventually became the patsy in the JFK hit? This is hard to prove, of course, but to see all the "Harvey and Lee" evidence John A. has compiled and I've put on the Web, click on the link below: Harvey and Lee To see John's write-up on the Escape from the Sixth Floor, just click on the link below: Escape from the Sixth Floor

Yes.... Where was the Steele Dossier wrong? And, equally to the point.... Why can't we see the Mueller Report? Reports on past scandals in recent years were delivered to the public without concerns about grand jury secrecy or intel "sources and methods." Let's see the Mueller Report!!!

Tony, Couldn’t agree more that the 6th floor shooter was there to be seen, and that he took at least one shot. John A. has been saying this for 20 years. To be effective, this fellow had to look at least similar in appearance to the “Lee Harvey Oswald” who became the patsy, no? Who could that man be? Could it be the same fellow who spent weeks leading up to the assassination creating scenes at the Sports Drome rifle range, the Downtown Lincoln Mercury dealership, the Southland Hotel, etc? Could it be the same man who shared his identity for years in a Cold War spy game with a Russian-speaking emigre who traveled to the Soviet Union and eventually became the patsy in the JFK hit? This is, of course, hard to prove, but…. Below is a closeup capture from Dallas Morning News photographer Tom Dillard’s film taken seconds after the shots rang out. John A. added dotted lines to the image to show what we believe is the figure’s hairline, chin, and collar. Note the white shirt under the collar line. Below from my website are four images at least alleged at one time or another to be of Lee Harvey Oswald. The leftmost photo below, the so-called “hunter photo,” was apparently taken of the man born as Lee Harvey Oswald by his brother Robert in 1958. Note the similar appearance of the hairline in this photo and the Dillard film.

Tony, I certainly think the throat wound was an entry wound, and I know people have debated endlessly about the “shallow” back wound, and how the WC laughably tried to move it. But since you brought this up when Paul J. and I were agreeing that “Oswald” was the primary designated patsy, I have to ask.... Are you suggesting that no one was shooting from the TSBD? Do you think Brennan, Euins, Jackson, Couch and undoubtedly others were lying about seeing a rifle in the window? Do you think those witnesses riding in the same car who heard Dallas Times photographer Robert Jackson contemporaneously say to them that he saw a rifle in the sixth floor window were also lying? And those guys on the fifth floor who heard the shots and the shells hitting the floor immediately above them were making it all up? If not, then regardless of the actual wounds on Kennedy’s body, the conspirators clearly were establishing a shooter on the sixth floor of the TSBD. And if you’re going to assassinate a sitting U.S. President, you HAVE to have a patsy, no? Otherwise, the search for you will be relentless, and you will be caught. What’s most disturbing about this is that the conspirators seemed to believe they could trust that the autopsy findings not point to a shot from anywhere but the rear.

Actually, Paul, although I think Baker probably encountered the brown-shirted Oswald in the vestibule by the second floor lunchroom, I’m hardly 100 percent certain of that. You and other researchers make some good contrary points. But we’re ALL 100 percent sure that the WC decided to put its one-and-only LHO by that lunchroom at that time, where Baker allegedly saw him and Truly allegedly vouched for him. And so, true or not, the alleged encounter put enormous pressure on certain witnesses to make the times possible. And who felt that pressure more than the TSBD employees near the scene: Truly, Shelley, Lovelady, and those two gals on the stairs (although of the two only Vickie Adams testified). All four of of the witnesses who testified changed their stories significantly, unless Vickie Adams was misrepresented to begin with. The main theme of this thread was to show how everyone’s story changed. We certainly agree about Truly. One of my favorite examples of this was told by a fellow who is banned here, and on at least one other forum as well, and I’m not certain I should mention his name. But he noted that it sure was funny that the unarmed Roy Truly charged up the stairs ahead of a gun-wielding cop ready to encounter what could only be assumed to be a heavily-armed potential assassin. What astounding courage! Unless Truly knew more than he let on, and I do believe he did.

And Truly I say unto you, oh Paul, that Roy Truly was being untrue right there in the article! Not under oath, he was trying to give additional time for “Lee Harvey Oswald” to climb down from the sixth floor to the second floor by stalling Baker and himself outside the building. Shelley and Lovelady both did exactly the same thing, but only as their stories changed. These stories ALL evolved over time. Read Baker’s testimony. He says he ran right into the building. Read Truly’s testimony. He said, “I saw an officer break thru the crowd and go into our building. I realized he did not know any thing about the build[ing], so I ran in with him.” In his affidavit, Baker said it took him 15 seconds to reach “the recessed door of the Texas School Book Depository Building” from the time of the simulated shot in his re-enactment for the WC. During that 15 seconds, he drove his bike to the curb near the front entrance, parked it, dismounted, and ran up to the building and ran inside. How much of that 15 seconds was spent chatting with Brennan, identifying the Secret Service Agent parked on Elm, and leading Brennan to him? The Brennan argument is absurd. Brennan said a cop, some unnamed, unidentified cop, talked with him and led him to Secret Service agent Forrest Sorrels, who had parked his car by the TSBD. Do you seriously want us to believe Roy Truly, a leading suspect in this case, and his unsupported, unsworn statement to a newspaper? It is nothing but a stall, an obvious attempt to give the accused assassin more time to climb down those stairs. A Baker and Brennan and Sorrels encounter outside the TSBD never happened. How could it have?

A little more about what I hurriedly wrote above last night…. If it was remotely true that Baker paused outside the TSBD to talk with Brennan, the WC would have been ALL OVER IT! The WC would have LOVED to give Baker/Truly more time to get to the freight elevators on the 1st floor because that would have given more time for “Lee Harvey Oswald” to climb down the stairs from the 6th floor “sniper’s nest” to the 2nd floor. The whole point of this thread is to show how stories changed over time, stories that were changed, in large part, to try to give the alleged assassin more time to get down unseen and unheard from the 6th floor. Are people here STILL trying to find more time for the magic escape? In his WC testimony, Baker said he ran from his bike straight into the Book Depository and bumped into Truly at the swinging door inside the building: Mr. BAKER - You see, it looked to me like there were maybe 500 or 600 people in this area here. Representative BOGGS -Yes. Mr. BAKER - As those shots rang out, why they started running, you know, every direction, just trying to get back out of the way. Mr. DULLES - For the record, by this area right here, you have that little peninsula between the Elm Street extension and the Building? Mr. BAKER - That is right. This little street runs down in front of the building down here to the property of the railroad tracks and this is all a parkway. Mr. DULLES - Yes. I just wanted to get it for the record. Mr. BELIN - You then ran into the Building, is that correct? Mr. BAKER - That is correct, sir. Mr. BELIN - What did you see and what did you do as you ran into the building? Mr. BAKER - As I entered this building, there was, it seems to me like there was outside doors and then there is a little lobby. Mr. BELIN - All right. Mr. BAKER - And then there are some inner doors and another door you have to go through, a swinging door type. As I entered this lobby there were people going in as I entered. And I asked, I just spoke out and asked where the stairs or elevator was, and this man, Mr. Truly, spoke up and says, it seems to me like he says, "I am a building manager. Follow me, officer, and I will show you." So we immediately went out through the second set of doors, and we ran into the swinging door. Mr. BELIN - All right. Now, during the course of running into the swinging door, did you bump into the back of Mr. Truly? Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; I did. Mr. BELIN - Then what happened? Mr. BAKER - We finally backed up and got through that little swinging door there and we kind of all ran, not real fast but, you know, a good trot, to the back of the Building, I was following him. In his 8/11/64 affidavit, Baker wrote… 2. On November 22, 1963, upon hearing shots I rode my motorcycle ISO to 269 feet, parked the motorcycle, and ran 45 feet to the Texas School Book Depository Building. 3. On March 20, 1964, counsel from the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy timed a re-enactment of my actions after hearing the shots on September 22, 1963. During this re-enactment, I reached the recessed door of the Texas School Book Depository Building fifteen seconds after the time of the simulated shot. In Roy Truly’s lengthy WC testimony, he indicates that Baker ran straight into the building and makes no mention of a conversation with Brennan whatsoever. In his first affidavit, Truly wrote in his own handwriting: “I saw an officer break thru the crowd and go into our building. I realized he did not know any thing about the build[ing], so I ran in with him.” There is nothing about talking to Brennan, or anyone else, in ANY of these statements by Truly and Baker. Why not? Pausing to talk to Brennan would have certainly given more time for an alleged assassin to climb down from the sixth floor to the 2nd floor. Brennan does tell Belin that he talked to a cop who “had taken me to, I believe, Mr. Sorrels, an automobile sitting in front of the Texas Book Store.” Are we to believe that cop was Baker? Really? It would surely have taken time for Sorrels to park his car in front of the TSBD, and more time for Brennan and the cop to identify him and walk over to his parked car. The cop who accompanied Brennan to Sorrels was obviously NOT Baker. Unless, of course, your object is to add more and more time to the arrival of Baker and Truly at the back staircase and elevators. And that is exactly what’s happening here. This whole revisionist argument strikes me as absurd and falling straight into the hands of WC apologists.

No, no, no! Truly, like Shelley and Lovelady, realized that the observations of Vickie Adams and probably Sandra Styles were real problems, not only for the Warren Commission and the Official Story®, but for them personally! You can see how the statements of all three men changed over time, gradually moving all of them into the TSBD later and later. That’s what they needed to do to hide their probable involvement in all of this. Where in Baker’s testimony does he say he spoke to anyone before Truly? Where in Truly’s testimony does he say he had a conversation outside the Book Depository with Brennan. Truly, Shelley, and Lovelady were all adding more and more time to their entry into the book depository. Why? So they can’t have been seen by Vickie Adams and probably Sandra Styles. For that matter, where on earth is there any evidence that Buell Frazier was framed for the assassination. Was he in New Orleans posing as a commie? Did he go to the Sports Drome rifle range. This evidence was not created after the assassination. Do you think otherwise? Sorry for this hurried response. I’ll have more time tomorrow morning.

Maybe, but it sure seems like a lot of work went into framing just “Oswald.” All those appearances at the Sport Drome rifle range, sending a “Lee Harvey Oswald” to visit Robert McKeown to buy rifles to tie to Castro, the Statler-Hilton, Downtown Lincoln Mercury, that brown paper bag mailed to “Lee Oswald” at 601 West Nassau, and on and on. Most of that works best setting up LHO as the shooter. Why ruin all that careful setup by risking the patsy being seen outdoors? And since Fritz allegedly wrote that Harvey Oswald indicated he was outside during the very first interrogation, I’ve got to wonder if he hadn’t thought things out completely at that point and was improvising, but it is a good argument. On another issue, can you point to the post(s) that make you think Baker hesitated before entering the TSBD?

Paul, Hopefully not starting a lengthy debate on the bus and taxi ride, but if Harvey Oswald got on WcWatters’ bus, it was surely because he was instructed to do so. The evidence may not be as good as that for the cab ride, but there is that transfer produced remarkably quickly, Oswald does say he rode the bus in Fritz’s notes, and how do we otherwise explain the fact that U.S. Army employee Stuart Reed managed, on a single roll of film, to take pictures of the Book Depository, Bus 1213, and the Texas Theater just as Oswald is being dragged out? Sure sounds like a planned operation to me, and if you believe that both the white-shirted and brown-shirted Oswalds were in the TSBD at the time of the hit, both had to leave in some way. Regarding Baker and Truly’s 2nd-or-3rd-or-4th floor encounter with Oswald or someone else, wouldn’t any consideration of a 4th floor encounter (and possibly a 3rd floor encounter) have to consider the fact that Dorothy Garner was right next to the fourth floor staircase and, in fact, watched as Vickie Adams and Sandra Styles ran down the stairs? She supposedly saw Baker and Truly run by her on the way up the stairway, yet she apparently didn’t notice the challenge on her floor or the one immediately below it? Seems unlikley. Harvey Oswald was surely ordered to stay inside during Kennedy’s drive-by. If we believe he was the designated patsy, how could he possibly be allowed outdoors where he could be witnessed, photographed and instantly exonerated? Shelley is the most likely candidate to give the order, especially so if he was in that photo taken during FPCC charade in New Orleans.