Jim Hargrove

And, of course, evidence that DOES support two Oswalds is to be discarded because... uh... hmmm.... I've been looking for weeks for that second Fort Worth newspaper article that said "Lee Harvey Oswald" attended Stripling School, and I just found it. This is from the June 8, 1962 Fort Worth Star-Telegram. Read the last paragraph. This, of course, is on top of all the other evidence that Oswald attended Stripling. Stripling assistant principal Frank Kudlaty in 1963 met FBI agent at the school and gave them “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” Stripling records. Those records also all disappeared. Mr. Kudlaty's YouTube interview is here. In 1959 a Fort Worth newspaper also said that LHO attended Stripling. See that article here. Robert Oswald testified to the Warren Commission that his “brother” attended Stripling. Harvey Oswald’s classmate Fran Schubert said she attended Stripling with Oswald and watched him walk home from Stripling to his house at 2220 Thomas Place. See Fran's YouTube interview with John here. In the 1990s, Stripling School principal Ricardo Galindo told John that it was “common knowledge” that “Lee Harvey Oswald” attended Stripling. Not one “researcher” here has made an effort to contact Galindo to see if he is still alive and if he would repeat his claim. John also spoke to local student Bobby Pitts, who remembered that Oswald attended Stripling with his younger brother and that he (Bobby) remembered seeing (Harvey) Oswald standing on the porch at 2220 Thomas Place, directly across the street from Stripling. John also spoke with former Stripling student Doug Gann, who attended ninth grade at Stripling with Harvey and remembered that he live “across the street from the basketball courts and one or two houses to the left,” which exactly describes 2220 Thomas Place, where “Marguerite Oswald” lived at the time of the assassination of JFK. H&L critics have not one bit of interest in any of these witnesses. They just want to describe them as liars. H&L critics have no explanation why a Forth Worth Star-Telegram article from November 2017 would indicate that Oswald’s “teachers and classmates remember him at Stripling, though there is no official record.” Read the article here. The H&L critics are forced to say that all the witnesses above are lying or just wrong, because the critics know that, according to the official timeline of the Warren Commission, "Lee Harvey Oswald" could not have attended Stripling School. Either all this evidence is invented, or there were two Lee Harvey Oswalds.

Thank you for saying that, Gene. I have been studying and posting about Harvey and Lee for nearly twenty years now, and for all that time I’ve been surprised at the venom and hatred spread by what I’ll call the H&L critics. Part of it makes me wonder if it isn’t an organized effort, but there may be other explanations. A number of the H&L critics apparently do not understand even the basics of this case. For example, Bernie Laverick recently took John’s list of people who knew both Harvey and Lee and mocked it by writing, “Ha ha ha!!! What a TOP SECRET plot this is.” Michael Walton chimed in with his support. Neither Mr. Laverick nor Mr. Walton seem to understand what the project was for the majority of its existence. The Harvey and Lee project was created to give a Russian-speaking youth the identity of an average American kid so that he could be sent to the Soviet Union, where his fluency in Russian would help him learn about Russian society. Details of the operation only had to be hidden enough to avoid detection by operatives working for the USSR who might look into his background in the U.S. It did not have to stand up to intense scrutiny. But in the summer of 1963, all that changed. The H&L project became entangled in the plot to kill JFK, and then the real scrutiny, and the cover-up, began. And so as the plot and the subsequent “investigations” began to unfold, many of the people who knew both Harvey and Lee began dying. David Ferrie, Ed Voebel, Guy Banister, Charles Murret, J.D. Tippit, and, perhaps, Roscoe White. We can’t leave Ruby off the list, because he certainly knew both Oswalds. Despite the critics lack of understanding of the basics of the case, I’m still surprised by how much they clearly hate the H&L Menace®. They seem to hate that more than the crime itself, or the cover-up. Otoh, it can be useful to debate the evidence in this case, and so I'm going to continue to do that.

It was written on or around November 14, 1968. In a handwritten note on page one of the document shown below, Garrison asked Lou Ivon (his chief investigator) to get the whole thing retyped and distributed to "every member of the special team," which Ivon did as a formal memorandum dated November 14, 1968.

John's reply to my question.... Very similar. When 13 year old Harvey told NYC psychiatrist Dr. Milton Kurian that his "brother" would sometimes take his place in school, he most surely was referring to Lee Oswald (he could not have been referring to Robert Oswald who was then 19 years old and in the Marines). Makes me wonder where, how, and why Harvey learned or was taught to refer to Lee Oswald as his brother. If (a big "IF") Robert Oswald took the photo of Harvey at the Bronx Zoo in 1953 (as he told the Warren Commission), Robert knew this 13 year old boy was not his brother. In the summer of 1956, while Robert Oswald was living with Harvey and the MO impostor at 4936 Collinwood in Ft. Worth, he most certainly knew these people were not his brother or mother. At Thanksgiving, 1962, in the home of Robert Oswald, Harvey most certainly knew that John Pic and Robert Oswald were not his brothers. And Robert Oswald absolutely knew that Harvey and the fake MO impostor were impersonating his mother and brother. The MO impostor was not invited to Thanksgiving dinner, because John Pic would immediately have known the MO impostor was not his mother. When Lee was impersonating Harvey, in the summer and fall of 1963, he (LEE) most certainly knew about Harvey. If Lee was driving Ruth Paine's car, as described by Cliff Shasteen, then Lee not only knew Ruth Paine but must have been aware that Marina (and Harvey on weekends) was living in her home. David Ferrie knew Harvey (1963) and he knew Lee (1955). Ruth Paine knew Harvey and he knew Lee. Ed Voebel knew Harvey and he knew Lee (1954-55). Robert Oswald knew Harvey and knew Lee (Pic's brother). John Pic knew Harvey and knew his brother, Lee. Lillian Murret, Dutz Murret, and their daughter knew Harvey and they knew Lee. Jack Ruby knew about Harvey and Lee. Guy Banister knew about Harvey and Lee. Marguerite Oswald knew about Harvey and Lee. The MO impostor knew about Harvey and Lee. Capt. W.R. Westbrook knew about Harvey and Lee. Sgt. Kenneth Croy knew about Harvey and Lee. Roscoe White knew about Harvey and Lee. J.D. Tippit knew about Harvey and Lee. Many CIA people knew about Harvey and Lee. There were also many people who, following the assassination, did not recognize the MO impostor as the women who they had known for many years. An example is the WC testimony of Myrtle and Julian Evans. They had known the real MO for over 30 years, rented an apartment to her in 1954-55, but did not recognize her from photos and interviews on television following the assassination. Several people who had known the real MO testified before the WC, but never saw the MO impostor face to face. It would have been very interesting to see the reaction of John Pic if he had met the MO impostor face to face during WC hearings (there is no indication that Pic every met the MO impostor). Or to see the reaction of Edward Pic (1st husband of the real MO and the father of John Pic), if he had seen the MO impostor face to face after the assassination. There were many people who knew and had met thereal Marguerite Claverie Oswald prior to the assassination, who would not have recognized the MO impostor as the women they knew. Employees of PPG and Lady Oris Hosiery in New Orleans worked with the real MO in the 1940's. The real MO rented a house from Mrs. Benny Comenge near Lake Pontchartrain, where she took her children during the hot summers in the 1940's. Friends and neighbors of Edwin Ekdahl and Marguerite Claverie Edkahl knew the real MO when they lived on 6th St. in Ft. Worth (1946-47) and LEE Oswald attended the nearby Lilly Clayton elementary school. Employees of Paul's Shoe Store in Ft. Worth worked with the real MO in 1957 (while the MO impostor was living at the Senator Hotel in New Orleans). Employees of Kriegers and Holmes Dept stores in New Orleans worked with the real MO in 1958-59 (while the MO impostor was living and working in the DFW area). Two Marguerite Oswalds, living and working in DFW and New Orleans in the 1940's, 1950's and early 1960's is why the federal tax returns and social security records of Marguerite Oswald remain classified to this day.

Mr. Laverick, The title of this thread is, "The H&L 'two schools at the same time' mystery"! Would you like to discuss the EVIDENCE?

You might enjoy reading up on Harvey and Lee at my website and at least learn the basics of it. Robert Oswald no doubt felt he was doing his patriotic duty when he helped in a program to send a Russian-speaking guy to the Soviet Union using his real brother’s identity. Robert certainly participated in the masquerade. So did “Marguerite.” The New Orleans D.A. understood there was a problem with the ID of “Lee Harvey Oswald,” but he may not have understood that the “problems” pre-dated the false defection by as much as a decade or so. HarveyandLee.net

"If you really want to know what I think, it is that Robert knew this returning defector was not really Lee and this is what his problem was the night of the assassination when he found it necessary to take such a long drive to think things out. He knew things were far more complicated than they appeared on the surface. How much a part he played in the original scheme, I don't know, but he says a couple of interesting things that point in that direction." --Jim Garrison, undated memo to Lou Ivon

My take is that the handlers made every effort to keep them apart, but that Lee knew some details about Harvey, that Harvey knew little about Lee, and that Robert Oswald knew just about everything about both of them. John and I haven’t talked about this in years, and I can’t remember exactly his take on your question. I’ll try to ask him about it.

I don’t think so. Frank Kudlaty, who had a long and distinguished career as an educator, said he met two FBI agents at Stripling and handed them the records of “Lee Harvey Oswald.” Do you seriously think that is a case of mistaken identity? Fran Schubert says, during her YouTube interview, that she watched “Lee Harvey Oswald” walk home from Stripling to 2220 Thomas Place, just across the street, which was the house where “Marguerite” lived at the time of the assassination of JFK. Pretty strange coincidence for a case of mistaken identity. Robert Oswald told two Fort Worth newspapers and said to the Warren Commission under oath that his brother attended Stripling. Is that also a case of mistaken identity? Other witnesses include Bobby Pitts, Doug Gann, and Ricardo Galindo, Stripling principal in the 1990s who said it was “common knowledge” that LHO attended Stripling. An 11/2017 Fort Worth Star-Telegram article also says LHO attended Stripling. If the WC had this many credible witnesses of Oswald shooting JFK, none of us would be arguing about this today.

Michael, The H&L critics are trying to prevent people from seeing that beyond the hundreds of pieces of evidence John assembled in his book, there is a consistent pattern that can easily be seen surrounding the two Oswalds during, for one example, their junior high school years. PS44 in the Bronx and Beuaregard JHS in New Orleans is just part of that evidence. Both Robert Oswald and John Pic have said that LEE Harvey Oswald attended school in the New York City borough of Manhattan in 1952. But no record of that attendance exists in the published Warren volumes or in the documents in the National Archives. Instead, we have just b&w COPIES of school documents showing LHO attended school only in the Bronx--not Manhattan. (Judge Florence Kelley gave the FBI the originals of LHO's NYC school records, but they all disappeared.) Harvey Oswald got into trouble with NYC authorities because he failed to go to his classes in one of the Bronx schools he was enrolled in. Courtroom encounters with the legal system threatened to expose the whole Oswald project, and so Harvey and his caretaker "mom" fled New York and Harvey began attending, part time, Beauregard School in New Orleans. That is the issue this thread is about. In the fall semester of 1953, Harvey was in New Orleans and LEE was still in New York. That's what these two records show: But there is more evidence, the clearest of all, that Harvey Oswald was soon taken from New Orleans and sent to Fort Worth, Texas, where he began attending Stripling Junior High School while Lee Oswald was still at Beauregard in New Orleans. During this school semester, LEE Oswald was attending Beauregard JHS in New Orleans and HARVEY Oswald was at W.C. Stripling junior high in Fort Worth, Texas. Since the Warren Commission published the Beauregard records indicating “Lee Harvey Oswald” attended classes at Beauregard for the full fall semester of 1954, evidence that he also attended Stripling school at the same time would be a serious problem. (Just as the Beauregard and NYC records, both published by the WC, are a serious problem now.) So, what evidence is there that “Lee Harvey Oswald” attended Stripling School in Fort Worth? H&L critics refuse to believe ANY of the following: Stripling assistant principal Frank Kudlaty in 1963 met FBI agent at the school and gave them “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” Stripling records. Those records also all disappeared. Mr. Kudlaty's YouTube interview is here. On two separate occasions, Robert Oswald told a Fort Worth newspaper that his brother attended Stripling. See one of the articles here. Robert also testified to the Warren Commission that his “brother” attended Stripling. Harvey Oswald’s classmate Fran Schubert said she attended Stripling with Oswald and watched him walk home from Stripling to his house at 2220 Thomas Place. See Fran's YouTube interview with John here. In the 1990s, Stripling School principal Ricardo Galindo told John that it was “common knowledge” that “Lee Harvey Oswald” attended Stripling. Not one “researcher” here has made an effort to contact Galindo to see if he is still alive and if he would repeat his claim. John also spoke to local student Bobby Pitts, who remembered that Oswald attended Stripling with his younger brother and that he (Bobby) remembered seeing (Harvey) Oswald standing on the porch at 2220 Thomas Place, directly across the street from Stripling. John also spoke with former Stripling student Doug Gann, who attended ninth grade at Stripling with Harvey and remembered that he live “across the street from the basketball courts and one or two houses to the left,” which exactly describes 2220 Thomas Place, where “Marguerite Oswald” lived at the time of the assassination of JFK. H&L critics have not one bit of interest in any of these witnesses. They just want to describe them as liars. H&L critics have no explanation why a Forth Worth Star-Telegram article from November 2017 would indicate that Oswald’s “teachers and classmates remember him at Stripling, though there is no official record.” Read the article here. The H&L critics are forced to say that all the witnesses above are lying, because the critics know that, accoding to the official timeline of the Warren Commission, "Lee Harvey Oswald" could not have attended Stripling School.

For Lance (emphasis added) .... United States[edit] See also: Education in the United States Primary and secondary[edit] In the United States, the K–12 school calendar is determined by the individual states, and in some cases by the local school district, so there is considerable variation. The academic year typically consists of two 18-week semesters, each divided into two nine-week marking periods (or quarters) or three six-week marking periods, and constituting 170 to 186 instructional days (with an average of 180).[citation needed] An instructional week is five instructional days, measured Monday–Friday at all public and most private schools; Saturday–Wednesday or Sunday–Thursday at Muslim private schools; and so on. Grades are usually reported per marking period, but major examinations are given per semester or per year. Above from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_term

I talked about this way back on page 1 of this thread. Here's what I said: Without any evidence whatsoever, at least one H&L critic claimed that the 89 days in the top “Re-Ad” column of the Beauregard cumulative record included days Oswald attended one of the PS 44s in New York City. But there are no forwarded records from any PS 44 in Oswald’s Beauregard file. The only mention of PS 44 in the Beauregard file is in a record that indicates he previously attended “PS #44-Byron Junior High" in New York City. But there is no “Byron Junior High” in New York City and, according to the New York Historical Society, there never was. Since there are PS 44s in at least four of the five New York City boroughs, how would Beauregard have requested information from an incorrectly identified school? And if they had received information, why didn't they know the name of the school? And if they did get information about Oswald's course work in NYC from a school they couldn't identify, why was the Oswald in New Orleans given a passing grade in an entirely different course from the NYC courses he supposedly took, and passed, that very semester? John wrote: “Perhaps a false name for the school was provided so that Beauregard school personnel would be unable to obtain Oswald's New York school transcripts by mail.”

OK, Lance. From Wikepedia.... The school year is usually split into two semesters. These semesters are also divided, with some schools holding examinations each half-semester. The first semester runs from September 1 till the middle of January and is divided by the fall vacation, which is around All Saints' Day and lasts for a week. What else do you want?

Of course you do. You believe the Warren Report.

Holy crap! Mr. Payette is denying the existence of "semesters" in primary as well as secondary education in the United States! He, apparently, has never heard of the "spring semester" or the "fall semester" in elementary or secondary schools! Do the H&L critics wish to endorse Mr. Payette's peculiar opinions?

Oh, please. We've already discussed this. The 1/13/54 date is the time LEE Oswald entered Beauregard; approximately at the beginning of the spring (or second) semester of the 1953/54 school year. HARVEY Oswald had already attended the entire first semester (the fall semester) of the '53/54 school year, as is clearly shown on the Beauregard record. Much as you wish to, you cannot make this evidence go away. Once more, how do you explain the presence of "Lee Harvey Oswald" at Beauregard for a full 89 days in the fall semester of the '53/54 school year, clearly BEFORE the 1/13/54 date? The evidence is right in front of your nose!

I guess Michael has shown, like all the other H&L critics, that he simply cannot "debunk" the school record evidence. Notice how everyone in this thread wants to talk about anything except the subject of this thread? Once more, here are the two conflicting records. They show that "Lee Harvey Oswald" attended school for essentially the entire fall semester of the 1953-54 school year in both New York City and New Orleans. Who can "debunk" this by clearly stating their case here, on the JFK Assassination Debate forum?

Oh, brother, is Mr. Walton really as dumb as he appears to be, or is he deliberately misrepresenting the H&L evidence? Neither I nor John has ever indicated that there was anything other than a POSSIBILITY that the Russian-speaking Oswald had Hungarian parents. That POSSIBILITY is based on the following FBI document (emphasis added):

The H&L critics here are unwilling to recognize what is placed right in front of their noses. The first row of grade reports, highlighted in yellow for the myopic H&L critics, is the fall semester of the 1953-54 school year (when LHO also attended PS 44 in New York City). The second row is the spring semester of the 1953-54 school year. The third row lists the cumulative totals of the two semesters. This is clearly much too difficult for the H&L critics to understand. Black and white COPIES of both the Beauregard and PS 44 records were given to the Warren Commission by the FBI (the originals all disappeared after being confiscated by the Bureau). The b&w copies of both the New York and New Orleans records were published in the Warren volumes, much to the chagrin of the H&L critics, who will now continue to deny ALL of this and pretend the whole thing has been “debunked.” Watch them and laugh….

Thanks for the clear explanation, Sandy. Obviously, though, certain H&L critics simply refuse to recognize the obvious.

BTW, Mr. Payette's assertion that a Beauregard "term" consisted of an entire school year is debunked by the very records we are looking at. Two different terms for the 53-54 school year at Beauregard are clearly shown on the documents above and the FBI report below. On pages 9 and 10 of the report above, "Report 1" indicates the first semester of the '53-54 school year, "Report 2" summarizes the second semester of the '53-54 school year, and "Report 3" is a summation of the two previous semester reports. Page 10 of the FBI report summarizes the attendance data in the “Absent,” “Tardy,” “Left” and “Re-Ad” columns, which are explained, according to the FBI agents, starting at the bottom of page 10 and continuing to page 11 by William Head, assistant principal at Warren Easton High School, who received the Beauregard records for incoming students. The FBI’s summary of Head’s explanation has caused Greg Parker and Tracy Parnell to argue against David Josephs and me for years, because Head seemed to say two contradictory things. At the bottom of page 10, the FBI indicates he said that the “Re ad” column stood for “Re Admitted” and “would represent a total listing of the school days for a given school year.” But later in the very same paragraph, now at the top of page 11, the report indicates that Head said a school year regularly consisted of 180 days and that “school days in any given year must not fall below 170” and that “therefore the numbers listed opposite this abbreviation indicated the number of school days that Oswald attended for a given school year.” So which is it? Does the “Re-Ad” column represent the number of school days in a school semester or year, or the number of days a student actually attended during that period? The answer is right before us in the documents shown above. In the actual Beauregard cumulative record for LHO (top document above), look at the very last entry on the far right under the “Re-Ad” column. It shows a total of “168” days for the 1954-55 school year. Tracy Parnell wants you to believe that number, like the numbers in the “Re-Ad” column for the previous school year, represent the number of total days in the school year. But that can’t be! Head indicated that Louisiana law dictated a minimum of 170 school days in a school year, and so if we’re to believe Tracy’s interpretation, every student report card at Beauregard for the 1954-55 school year was evidence that Louisiana law was being broken. On the other hand, using my interpretation (that the “168” indicated the actual days LHO attended school) we can make perfect sense of these numbers. Adding Oswald’s 168 days of attendance and his 12 absences comes out to exactly 180 days, just what Head said comprised a typical Beauregard school year! The “Re Ad” column clearly indicates the number of days a student actually attended school. So let’s look at the first semester of the 1953-54 school year at Beauregard. It indicates that Oswald attended 89 days and was absent once, for a total of 90 school days. For the 1953 fall semester at PS 44 in New York, Oswald attended 62 and a fraction days and was absent three and a fraction days for a total of 66 school days accounted for. Add those 66 days to the 90 days from Beauregard and you get at total of 156 days, equivalent to nearly an entire school year! Despite whatever spin Tracy cares to put on this, the NYC and Louisiana school records for fall semester starting in 1953 clearly show two Lee Harvey Oswalds attending two different schools at the same time!

Sigh.... Hope everyone had a Merry Christmas, even the H&L critics such as Mr. Payette! Here is the NYC school record showing that "Lee Harvey Oswald" attended one of the Public School 44s starting 3/23/53 and extending through mid-January 1954 (which is normally described as the fall (or second) semester of 1953 And here is the Beauregard record showing that "Lee Harvey Oswald" also attended school for 89 days in New Orleans during the same semester. Without any evidence whatsoever, at least one H&L critic claimed that the 89 days in the top “Re-Ad” column of the Beauregard cumulative record included days Oswald attended one of the PS 44s in New York City. But there are no forwarded records from any PS 44 in Oswald’s Beauregard file. The only mention of PS 44 in the Beauregard file is in a record that indicates he previously attended “PS #44-Byron Junior High" in New York City. But there is no “Byron Junior High” in New York City and, according to the New York Historical Society, there never was. Since there are PS 44s in at least four of the five New York City boroughs, how would Beauregard have requested information from an incorrectly identified school? And if they had received information, why didn't they know the name of the school? And if they did get information about Oswald's course work in NYC from a school they couldn't identify, why was the Oswald in New Orleans given a passing grade in an entirely different course from the NYC courses he supposedly took that very semester? John wrote: “Perhaps a false name for the school was provided so that Beauregard school personnel would be unable to obtain Oswald's New York school transcripts by mail.” H&L critics, including Mtr. Payette, will no doubt tell us they have a better explanation, but they don't. They'll point to another website and say the answer is there, but it isn't. But back to the two Oswalds.... The very next year after the one discussed above, there is considerable evidence that one LHO attended Beauregard in New Orleans while the other went to Stripling Junior High in Fort Worth. The explanation by Mr. Parnell for this is a hoot, and involved an ENORMOUS conspiracy!

Ms. Faircloth's recollection of how the FBI descended on Pfisterer's the first day after the assassination and confiscated all the employment records of "Lee Harvey Oswald" is a familiar one in this sordid affair. From Harvey and Lee: The day after the assassination (Saturday morning) the FBI visited the Pfisterer Dental Lab and interviewed the four partners who owned the company. Each of the partners was taken to a different area and questioned individually. Each of the owners were warned not to discuss the case with anyone or among themselves. All payroll and other records pertaining to Oswald were taken by the FBI agents and never returned (there were no Pfisterer records published in the Warren Volumes, none in the National Archives, and the FBI claims to have no Pfisterer records in their files). After the origi­- nal payroll records disappeared it was impossible for anyone to accurately determine the dates of "Lee Harvey Oswald's" employment at Pfisterer's. If Oswald did work at Pfisterer's in 1955, he could have worked there prior to his employment at Dolly Shoe (March 12, 1955), or anytime after he was fired from Dolly Shoe (April 12, 1955). [H&L p. 117]

Mr. Parnell, as usual, wants to claim the H&L evidence is debunked elsewhere and does not want to discuss it here, on the JFK Assassination Debate forum, because he knows how lame the arguments against it are. For example, one of the people confirming Palmer McBride's recollection that "Lee Harvey Oswald" worked for Pfisterer Dental Lab after Sputnik 1 was launched by the Soviets (in October 1957) was Linda Faircloth, the general manager and president of Pfisterer, who was interviewed by John Armstrong in 1995. Here is her interview:

Well then, let's see what Mr. Armstrong has to say about Palmer McBride.... Please tell us about "Russian Space Successes" before Sputnik! And now shall we review what Mr. McBride had to say about David Lifton?