Jim Hargrove

Jack Ruby shot Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald, and it is HARVEY who is buried in Rose Hill Cemetery in Fort Worth. American-born LEE Oswald, whose identity HARVEY shared, lost one or two upper front teeth in a schoolyard fight and was missing a molar. From the exhumation photos, HARVEY had all his teeth. It is all explained here: HarveyandLee.net

That’s going to be hard to do. Most of the exhumation photos have “LHO” plastered all over them, and the date of the procedure.

If so, Tommy, isn’t it a miracle that they decided to stand up straight and suddenly look like normal teeth, instead of wobbling in any other direction? Of course, miracles DO happen with our boy. He changes his height and his weight at will. He can make gunshot wounds in his arm disappear! He can make a front tooth grow back while in his grave! He can be in two places at the same time, again and again. He can, and can’t, drive a car. He can do so many other AMAZING things! You have a point, Tommy. Miracles can happen to “Lee Harvey Oswald!” Even to his cadaver. I shouldn’t have doubted you.

Perhaps it would be best to let Sandy present all the new evidence he has found before working up a presentation for expert appraisal. What bothers me about this is that virtually all attorneys knows that they can get an expert opinion to support just about anything. It happens every day in court rooms across America. I’m not disagreeing with your point, Tom, but I predict that even more than one “expert opinion” on Sandy’s evidence will not prove definitive in the debate.

What is tricky, though, is how to present the evidence without a hint that it is about “Lee Harvey Oswald,” which so often causes weird responses. This sort of thing has been done in the past regarding, for example, the medical evidence and JFK’s autopsy, and the results have been hotly disputed and hardly as definitive as one would hope. I'd like to see this new evidence--Sandy has more to come--hashed out here before seeking "expert's" opinions.

Does anyone have a logical explanation for Sandy's finding. You know, something better than "trust the experts."

The first thing John told me years ago when I offered to assist him in a little research project was to hide the fact that the opinion we were seeking was related to "Lee Harvey Oswald." By doing so, I got some amazing information on the pre-Marine W-2 forms.

Uh-huh, and here is my rebuttal to an earlier version of your attempt to debunk the facts. To Paul Trejo: (My responses are in red.) 1. CIA accountant James Wilcott admitted that his opinion was based on rumors by field agents. James just took their word for it. He was not a field agent, and knew nothing other than what the field agents told him -- and they teased him. Mr. Wilcott testified just the opposite to what you say above: Mr. Preyer. That was shop talk, speculation, I gather; people were saying that the CIA is somehow connected with it. Mr. Wilcott. Well, I believed it to be a little more than speculation, that the source at least of this kind of talk was, I believe, to be something more serious than speculation. Mr. Preyer. It was your conclusion from that talk that some of these people might have knowledge that he was a CIA agent rather than that they were speculating about it? Mr. Wilcott. Yes, sir. Mr. Preyer. And you did mention the case officer who came in and told you that the money he had drawn out a few weeks earlier was drawn out for Oswald? Mr. Wilcott. Yes, sir. Mr. Preyer. He stated that as a fact and not that he believed it was drawn out for Oswald or it could have been or something like that? Mr. Wilcott. It was stated as a fact -- Oswald or the Oswald project. 2. Antonio Veciana did see LHO in a meeting with CIA’s Maurice Bishop/David Atlee Phillips in Dallas in August 1963 -- in the context of killing Fidel Castro. That's what Alpha-66 was set up to do. They had no other purpose. David Atlee Phillips describes this Kill-Fidel project and LHO's involvement in his 1988 manuscript, "The AMLASH Legacy." Only you would believe anything Phillips had to say. Soon after the Phillips/Oswald meeting, the framing of the “Oswald” killed by Jack Ruby began in earnest in and around Dallas. The Phillips/Oswald meeting is further proof that Oswald was an agent. 3. Robert Webster and LHO were only two of scores of fake defectors to the USSR in 1959. This was revealed by former CIA Agent Victor Marchetti, who said it was an ONI (Office of Naval Intelligence) "dangle" operation. It was for beginners. When LHO was recruited for this beginner's mission, he was still 19 years old (and a high-school dropout, and could not drive a car, and could hardly spell). LHO was being "tested." I did a quick web search and found several CIA-affiliated people who were with the Agency by the age of 20. You should have no trouble doing the same thing. By your account David Atlee Phillips was impressed enough with “Oswald’s” test to meet with him in Dallas in 1963. 4. All of the HSCA leaders, including Richard Sprague, Richard Schweiker, and CIA agents Donald Norton and Joseph Newbrough had nothing but their opinions to offer. They were not allowed to see the thousands of JFK documents that the US Government kept secret in the 1970's. All they could do was guess. Their opinion was no more valid than the average Congressman – useless. That’s your opinion. I believe the men listed above were far closer to the actual events being discussed here than you were. 5. Donald Deneslya read a lot of things. As Marchetti said, there were scores of fake defectors to the USSR in that program. It is certainly possible that many of them got married in Russia. They worked all over Russia. Donald made no positive identification. Deneslya said he read reports of a CIA agent who had worked at a radio factory in Minsk and returned to the US with a Russian wife and child. Are you suggesting there was a different CIA agent who had worked at a radio factory in Minsk and returned to the US with a Russian wife and child? 6. Kenneth Porter, worked for Collins Radio -- and some people try to force this into a CIA plot. Porter fell in love with Marina Oswald -- and some people try to make this into a CIA plot. It's naked fiction -- intended to sell books. Sure… Here’s what one those books written to tell the truth says: Collins Radio was located at 1200 North Alma Road in Richardson, Texas and held major communications contracts for the military and CIA, including the installation of communications towers in Vietnam. On November 1, 1963 the New York Times published a photo of a ship named the "Rex"and a story involving commandos that were sent ashore from the ship in Cuba on October 22-23, 1963. The Commandos were captured on a Cuban beach with high-powered sniper rifles and admitted they had been trained by the CIA to kill Cuban leaders. The "Rex" was leased to Collins Radio of Richardson, Texas. (Harvey and Lee, pp. 872-873.) 7. George Joannides, case officer and paymaster for DRE (which LHO had attempted to infiltrate) was hired by the CIA to lie to the HSCA. Big deal -- *everybody* in the US Government lied to the HSCA. This is because the HSCA was merely Congress, and it was a Presidential mandate by LBJ in 1964 (along with Earl Warren, J. Edgar Hoover and Allen Dulles) that the true JFK Records be sealed for 75 years. No act of Congress could change that. The Cold War with the USSR was still raging. Hey, you’re like the guy who gets pulled over for speeding and then tells the cop, “but everyone else was speeding too.” Do you expect that defense to work better here than in traffic court? The fact remains that the CIA put a fellow in charge of lying to the HSCA who had specialized knowledge—that he kept to himself—about “Lee Harvey Oswald.” 8. FBI took Oswald off the watch list in 1962, and so did the State Department. Hosty tried to put LHO back on the FBI watch list in early 1963, and failed. It was LHO himself who put himself back on in August 1963 in New Orleans in connection with the FPCC. But as Hoover and Belmont testified to the Warren Commission -- LHO never at any time showed any signs of political violence. Because of that crucial fact, the FBI took LHO off of their watch list in October. The CIA had nothing to do with it. Any shenannigans belonged to James Hosty alone. The fact remains that the FBI and the CIA—at exactly the same time just weeks before the assassination—made clear efforts to diminish Federal monitoring of “Lee Harvey Oswald.” And you, apparently, find nothing suspicious about this. 9. Oswald’s lengthy “Lives of Russian Workers” essay is dry writing, and he probably didn't write it alone. He usually had at least one misspelled word for each sentence, and the spelling in this essay is very good -- so somebody else helped him. LHO was a CIA wannabe. He was trying like mad to get their attention -- but he just wasn't smart enough. Proof: LHO became a Patsy. I agree someone helped him. After all, English wasn’t Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald’s primary language. But it is a fine report, and was surely of considerable interest for intelligence agencies at the time who wanted to learn more about the life of Russian workers. 10. Oswald’s possessions were searched for microdots because like a fool he included the word, "microdots" in his diary and personal papers. Nothing was found. If memory serves, there were some individual letters cut out of some of “Oswald’s” writings. Perhaps to remove microdots? Your lack of suspicion about “Oswald” as an intelligence agent is stunning! 11. Oswald owned an expensive Minox spy camera; like many Private Detectives and other spy wannabes. The FBI mucked with all JFK evidence, starting on 11/22/1963, because of J. Edgar Hoover's order that everything must fit a "Lone Nut" scenario. This was for National Security purposes. Nobody denies that anymore. But the fact remains that owning a “spy camera” is hardly an indication that you are not a spy, eh? 12. The official cover story of LHO was explained fully by former CIA agent Victor Marchetti. LHO was a trainee "dangle" in the USSR. Amazing, then, that the CIA worked so hard to distance itself from him, and that David Atlee Phillips met with him a few weeks before the assassination, and that George Joannides, a CIA agent who should have had specialized knowledge about “Oswald,” was hired by the CIA to lie to the HSCA and hide his specialized knowledge of Oswald, and on and on. 13. CIA agent Richard Case Nagell was a double-agent and was neurotic as they come. Anything he said had to be taken with a grain of salt. Everybody who ever interviewed him admitted that -- even Dick Russell. That’s all irrelevant. All you have to do was look at the verifiable evidence of his case. 14. LHO was always poor as a church mouse in the USA. In the USSR however, in addition to his low radio factory salary, he got an equal amount from the Red Cross -- so that his salary was the same as a manager's salary. Also, LHO was allowed to stay in a new apartment complex in Minsk, which was reserved for privileged people. This was one reason Marina fell in love with LHO. In the spring of 1962, the State Department called LHO's mother and demanded that she search for funds to pay LHO's way back to the USA. Marguerite Oswald made a sweeping fund raising tour to beg for money. She came up empty-handed. The State Department, out of compassion, loaned the cash to LHO. Back in the USA, LHO again became as poor as a church-mouse. Wrong. LHO was staying at first class hotels on the way to Moscow and during his first days in Moscow. He also hired expensive private tourist guides at the very beginning of his stay. 15. It simply isn't the CIA standard operating procedure to bypass the State Department. LHO never defected. LHO never became a USSR citizen. Naturally, then, LHO could never join the KGB. The State Department grilled LHO for that, and gave him a clean bill of health. Also, when LHO returned to the USA, the FBI took charge of LHO, and debriefed LHO two times, and gave him a clean bill of health. You make it sound like the CIA had nothing better to do in the Cold War than to watch LHO. There were already enough people watching LHO. It's a fact. You sure talk as if you know a lot about the CIA. Why didn’t you know about the “family jewels?” To this day, the CIA claims it never interacted with Oswald, that it didn’t even bother debriefing him after the “defection.” What utter bs….

All you can do is mischaracterize the evidence? The “gap where a tooth could be missing” is clearly shown on the Marine Corps x-rays, and is clearly missing on the exhumation photo. As always, you tell us to consult the “experts” and to disbelieve our own lying eyes. As you well know, the Norton team was looking for evidence of a second Oswald who was substituted for the original one after the so-called “defection.” They were not told about the evidence that both Oswalds were in the USMC at roughly the same. Nor were they asked to look for evidence that the health records were compiled from two different subjects. Thank you for the information on Dr. Norton, which does at least say what hospital she works at. Do you have contact information for Vincent DiMaio?

That sounds pretty logical, but I think they should be confronted about this. Do you think the dental records given to the Norton team were a mix of records from both Oswalds? To my mind, these are the two money shots from Sandy’s article. The Marine Corps x-ray clearly shows room for a wide molar to have once been in place, even though the adjacent molars are tipped: But in the photo of the exhumed teeth, there clearly is insufficient space and the adjacent molars are NOT tipped! The different root spreads of the adjacent molar(s) is also a tell. Thanks again for this careful work!

Would anyone who knows how to reach a surviving member of the Norton team kindly email me at... jimbotopia@gmail.com Thank you!! Jim

FASCINATING, Sandy... THANK YOU! This is NEW EVIDENCE showing that the EXHUMATION graphics prove there were TWO DIFERENT OSWALDS, both in the USMC in the late 1950s! The NORTON TEAM should be questioned directly about this! Are any of them sill alive? Tracy.... Do you have an email address for Ms. Norton... or anyone else from her team? If you do, please forward Sandy's post to them and ask for comments, or tell me how to reach them. Assuming you won't try to help us reach Ms. Norton or her associates, I'll make an attempt to locate the surviving members. Won't you help?

REALLY? 21 Facts Indicating the Oswald Project Was Run by the CIA 1. CIA accountant James Wilcott said he made payments to an encrypted account for “Oswald or the Oswald Project.” 2. Antonio Veciana said he saw LHO meeting with CIA’s Maurice Bishop/David Atlee Phillips in Dallas in August 1963. 3. A 1978 CIA memo indicates that a CIA operations officer “had run an agent into the USSR, that man having met a Russian girl and eventually marrying her,” a case very similar to Oswald’s and clearly indicating that the Agency ran a “false defector” program in the 1950s. 4. Robert Webster and LHO "defected" a few months apart in 1959, both tried to "defect" on a Saturday, both possessed "sensitive" information of possible value to the Russians, both were befriended by Marina Prusakova, and both returned to the United States in the spring of 1962. 5. Richard Sprague, Richard Schweiker, and CIA agents Donald Norton and Joseph Newbrough all said LHO was associated with the CIA. 6. CIA employee Donald Deneslya said he read reports of a CIA "contact" who had worked at a radio factory in Minsk and returned to the US with a Russian wife and child. 7. Kenneth Porter, employee of CIA-connected Collins Radio, left his family to marry (and probably monitor) Marina Oswald after LHO’s death. 8. George Joannides, case officer and paymaster for DRE (which LHO had attempted to infiltrate) was put in charge of lying to the HSCA and never told them of his relationship to DRE. 9. For his achievements, Joannides was given a medal by the CIA. 10. FBI took Oswald off the watch list at the same time a CIA cable gave him a clean bill of political health, weeks after Oswald’s New Orleans arrest and less than two months before the assassination. 11. Oswald’s lengthy “Lives of Russian Workers” essay reads like a pretty good intelligence report. 12. Oswald’s possessions were searched for microdots. 13. Oswald owned an expensive Minox spy camera, which the FBI tried to make disappear. 14. Even the official cover story of the radar operator near American U-2 planes defecting to Russia, saying he would give away all his secrets, and returning home without penalty smells like a spy story. 15. CIA Richard Case Nagell clearly knew about the plot to assassinate JFK and LHO’s relation to it, and he said that the CIA and the FBI ignored his warnings. 16. LHO always seemed poor as a church mouse, until it was time to go “on assignment.” For his Russian adventure, we’re to believe he saved all the money he needed for first class European hotels and private tour guides in Moscow from the non-convertible USMC script he saved. In the summer of 1963, he once again seemed to have enough money to travel abroad to Communist nations. 17. To this day, the CIA claims it never interacted with Oswald, that it didn’t even bother debriefing him after the “defection.” What utter bs…. 18. After he “defected” to the Soviet Union in 1959, bragging to U.S. embassy personnel in Moscow that he would tell the Russians everything he knew about U.S. military secrets, he returns to the U.S. without punishment and is then in 1963 given the OK to travel to Cuba and the Soviet Union again! 19. Allen Dulles, the CIA director fired by JFK, and the Warren Commission clearly wanted the truth hidden from the public to protect sources and methods of intelligence agencies such as the CIA. Earl Warren said, “Full disclosure was not possible for reasons of national security.” 20. CIA's Ann Egerter, who worked for J.J. Angleton's Counterintelligence Special Interest Group (CI/SIG), opened a "201" file on Oswald on December 9, 1960. Egerter testified to the HSCA: "We were charged with the investigation of Agency personnel....” When asked if the purpose was to "investigate Agency employees," she answered, "That is correct." When asked, "Would there be any other reason for opening up a file?" she answered, "No, I can't think of one." 21. President Kennedy and the CIA clearly were at war with each other in the weeks immediately before his assassination, as evidenced by Arthur Krock's infamous defense of the Agency in the Oct. 3, 1963 New York Times. “Oswald” was the CIA’s pawn. Hey, Walton, Why don't you just discuss the evidence? You can't, can you?

EXCUSE ME? Mr. Simpich says three times in the first chapter of SS that "Oswald was a spy in his own mind." HAVE YOU BOTHERED TO READ THE BOOK?

There’s nothing wrong with John’s logical skills, although people who work endlessly to defend the CIA’s involvement in the murder of JFK will tell you otherwise--endlessly. John grew up in a poor family but went on to become extremely wealthy from dual careers in both the petroleum distribution and custom home building businesses. He probably lost millions of dollars in income because he gave up more than a decade of his life to study the Kennedy assassination. Nevertheless, he is probably worth more today than the total wealth of everyone who has posted here in the last few days. That kind of economic success is seldom the result of faulty mental processes. To judge for yourself, read the speech he wrote himself and delivered at the University of Minnesota way back in 1999. Read it HERE. Or just visit his Website: HarveyandLee.net Or, just just stay here and read what the Agency defenders want you to believe. It’s your choice. P.S. Was the CIA involved in the Kennedy assassination? * Richard Sprague, chief counsel to the U.S. House Select Committee on Assassinations said, "If he had it to do over again, he would begin his investigation of the Kennedy assassination by probing 'Oswald's ties to the Central Intelligence Agency." * Sen. Richard Schweiker said, "We do know Oswald had intelligence connections. Everywhere you look with him, there're fingerprints of intelligence." * Victor Marchetti was the former Executive Assistant to the Deputy Director of the CIA. Marchetti said, "The more I have learned, the more concerned I have become that the government was involved in the assassination of President John F. Kennedy." * CIA Agent Donald Norton said, "Oswald was with the CIA, and if he did it then you better believe the whole CIA was involved." * Former CIA agent Joseph Newbrough said, "Oswald was an agent for the CIA and acting under orders." * CIA Agent John Garrett Underhill told friends, just before he died, "Oswald is a patsy. They set him up. They've killed the President. I've been listening and hearing things. I couldn't believe they'd get away with it, but they did." * CIA Agent William Gaudet said, "The man who probably knows as much as anybody alive on all of this... is... I still think is Howard Hunt"----CIA Agent and Watergate burglar E. Howard Hunt. * CIA employee Donald Deneslya read reports of a CIA "contact" who had worked at a radio factory in Minsk and returned to the US with a Russian wife and child--that agent could only have been Oswald, and he was obviously much more than a "contact." * CIA officer David Phillips provided the Warren Commission with information that Oswald was at the Russian and Cuban embassies in Mexico City, then later admitted that the information he had provided was false. * Marvin Watson, an adviser to President Lyndon Johnson, said that Johnson had told him that he was convinced that there was a plot in connection with the assassination. Watson said the President felt the CIA had something to do with this plot. And then, of course, there is the war between JFK and the CIA, as recorded by Arthur Krock in the NY Times shortly before our government killed JFK.

John's quotes were picked to show that the White Russians in and around Dallas who met Oswald in 1963 were amazed at his fluency in the language. Nothing you have said changes that fact. Whatever his mental state, De Mohrenschildt was a university-level Russian language instructor who Harvey Oswald considered his best friend in 1963. No one on earth was better qualified to make the assessment you asked for. If you refuse to accept it, that's your choice. The fact, by the way, the Harvey Oswald made grammatical errors despite his general fluency in the language is entirely consistent from what you would expect for someone who learned a language as a young child and only came back to it as a young adult. It also explains how he could read, write, and speak Russian before he even traveled to the Soviet Union. This makes far more sense than your silly contention that he learned the language from reading a Russian tour guide in his spare time while stationed in California.

Last August in this very thread, foreign language instructor Mathias Baumann wrote about Oswald passing a Russian language exam while still in the Marines.... In another post that same month, Mathias wrote: The argument that Oswald learned Russian by reading a Russian guide book is ludicrous!

Thanks, Robert! I’ve been studying that book for nearly 15 years now, and there is still lots of stuff in it I can’t remember. It’s just got too much packed into more than a thousand pages of type. (Plus about 800 pages worth of graphics are on the accompanying CD.) It is easier to use as a reference work than as a start to finish read. Most of us have assumed Harvey Oswald had some inside information to know how to use Helsinki and Stockholm to gain legal entry into the USSR in record time, but the fact that no paper trail out of Finland or Sweden seems to have been found is just stunning! I'll have to look into this some more. I'm sure the most complete info on the early days of the so-called "defection" will be right in the pages of Harvey and Lee!

DJ, Fascinating. I either never knew this or forgot it. I'm in the process of applying for a Russian visa for a vacation later this year, and it is a real pain in the butt. The Russian Federation's paperwork, fee schedules, and processes make the typical DMV look like a dream. I'll bet it was no better back in the day.

Oh, puh-leeze! Oswald was not able to have a two hour conversation with Rosaleen Quinn entirely in Russian in the spring of 1959 because he managed to learn how to say “Where is the train station, comrade” from some Russian guide book. Not even the Warren Commission had the chutzpa to try to sell that one to us. Ms. Quinn, by the way, took REAL Berlitz courses in Russian!

The Berlitz method is a total immersion foregin language experience based on teachers, and other people, not just books. It uses what is called the "natural method" and uses only the language that is to be learned, not the subject's language. You're not going to experience a Berlitz method by buying a book at a newspaper stand. From Wikpedia: The Berlitz Method "The Berlitz Method" uses the direct method and focuses on using language as a tool for communication. The direct method, as opposed to the traditional grammar translation method, advocates teaching through the target language only – the rationale being that students will be able to work out grammatical rules from the input language provided, without necessarily being able to explain the rules overtly. Today, there are a variety of derivative methods and theories which find their beginnings in the natural and communicative elements that were pioneered by Berlitz.[13] Wikipedia defines the "direct method" this way: The direct method of teaching, which is sometimes called the natural method, and is often (but not exclusively) used in teaching foreign languages, refrains from using the learners' native language and uses only the target language. Do you seriously expect us to believe that Harvey learned Russian on his own using a book that refrains from using a language he understood?

Please stop misrepresenting what I say, Paul. I think the Marines were telling the truth. For example, Erwin Donald Lewis said in his sworn affidavit, “It was a matter of common knowledge among squadron members that he [Oswald] could read, write, and speak Russian. The question I want you to answer is how did a high school dropout teach himself to read, write, and speak as difficult a language as Russian in a few months of spare time in the Marines? You tell us he attended Berlitz courses, which Delgado misconstrued as “Berlin,” but why is there no record of that whatsoever in USMC documents? If you care to say he attended the Monterey School of Languages or a Berlitz School because he was being trained to become a Russian spy, that’s fine. Just say so!

I don't think Oswald took a Berlitz course in Russian, Paul. If you think he did, please tell us where and when he took the course. How did he pay for it? Priscilla Johnson claims he said he used the method, but the word "Berlitz" does not appear anywhere in the 888 pages of the Warren Report, and the commissioners and staff were clearly anxious to explain how Oswald learned Russian before traveling to Moscow. In an executive WC meeting, general counsel J. Lee Rankin suggested that Oswald might have received language instruction at the Monterey School of the Army. Ranken said, “We are trying to find out what [Oswald] studied at the Monterey School of the Army in the way of languages.” But as you know, there is no record whatsoever that Oswald attended any foreign language school while in the USMC. But it is abundantly clear that he knew Russian in the Marine Corps. On a date with Rosaleen Quinn in the spring of 1959, he spoke with her for more than two hours entirely in Russian. Ms Quinn really had taken a Berlitz Russian-language course for some time According to one of the many soldiers in California who saw "Oswaldovich" reading Russian language newspapers and books, he read a Russian language newspaper published in San Francisco, which is probably the one shown below, which was in business since the 1920s. Can you imagine teaching yourself Russian by reading stuff like this alone in your spare time while working as a U.S. Marine? Here is that Russian newspaper published in San Francisco. Do you want us to believe this was how Harvey taught himself Russian?

You're not paying attention, Tommy. I responded to you at the very top of the previous page of this thread, and you already expressed outrage. Don't you remember? Anyway, here's what I said way back on Monday.