Andrej Stancak

Sandy: Billy Lovelady was 5'8'' and Lee Harvey Oswald was taller than Lovelady and therefore it would be a mistake to assume Oswald as a man 5'8''. Thanks for pointing to the shadow on Frazier's chest: the two figures I posted were to help you to figure out the locations and I made them while working a different problem and therefore Frazier was just there and a bit neglected. It would never strike my mind that you would flag this up. I look forward to seeing your work on Prayer Man as Oswald standing on the top landing.

Well, in that case, and I assume you are not thinking of one-foot-down-one-foot-up explanation, it would be someone about 5'2''. However, there would still be problems to satisfy all constraints with a 5'2'' person such as shadows and distances from other figures or doorway landmarks.

Sandy: was not Lee Harvey Oswald 5'9''? Please see his autopsy report here: http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Other/oswald, lee harvey_report.pdf . The height 5'9'' is the body height I work with, and I assume this body height has been agreed across the board. One can reduce the body height by slightly bending the head and slightly pushing one foot forwards by not more than 2''. That would give the effective height of 5'7'' which is just too much relative to the shoulder/neck line of Buell Frazier. The standard height of human head is 9'' , however, the line to which Prayer Man's head aligns with is probably 1'' lower as it looks like neck or shoulder level. That gives the body height of 5'2'' you need to fit if you subtract 10'' from 6' (Frazier' height). There is just no way how you could fit somebody of 5'7'' as Prayer Man. The figure below shows a man 5'8'' (actually a copy of Lovelady from the same scene) as much in the corner as possible . You may see that he is just way too tall, and we do not talk 1-2''. The other picture shows better the location in the corner. Not only would this figure be too tall, his crossed arms would not allow to have his hands and his left thigh exposed to the sunlight because the line of the shadow is too far from him.

Well, Michael, subjective views delivered to your conscious mind by your eyes and brain cannot be disputed. However, if you believe your eyes and brain and place Prayer Man with both his feet on the top landing, you may wish to answer the question who Prayer Man was. At least this is the question which we want to answer in this thread. Lee Harvey Oswald (5'9'') could not be Prayer Man if you place Prayer Man with both feet his on the top landing because he would be too tall (e.g. compared to Mr. Frazier's neck/shoulder line). So, who would be your candidate for Prayer Man if you are convinced that he stood further back on the top landing?

Robin: I understand your concerns. At the ultimate stage of the project, all doorway occupants will be fitted to their locations, including Mrs. Sanders and Mrs. Stanton, and an overlay including Prayer Man will be prepared. To this end, I still need to work out the most accurate estimate of the doorway. The screenshots I am showing are based on an estimate, maybe a close one, but an estimate. The depth of the doorway will always be an estimate, however, there should be at least some justification for the preferred doorway depth. Only then and after having all manikins completed can I show the final overlays which I hope will demonstrate a good fit for Prayer Man. Prayer Man, in theory, can stand at any point at the top of doorway along a plane which connects the camera axis with the most western pole of the glass door frame. That would include maybe only one location with one foot down and many locations in which Prayer Man would stand with both his feet on the top landing. If he stood on the top landing, it would be possible to place him very close to the glass window which seems to be the possibility you advocate. In that case, Prayer Man may not meet other constraints, such as having his left leg bent and lit by sunlight, or having his hands but not his trunk in the sunlight. The closer to the glass door Prayer Man is, the longer will be the distance between his right elbow and the brick column (or Lovelady's head). Of course, Prayer Man would be a short person should he stand on the top landing and in no case Lee Harvey Oswald. Who would you think could this short person be? We are facing the same question which Sean Murphy posed early on in this thread: who else Prayer Man would be if not Lee Harvey Oswald? Sean's logical exclusion of individual candidates applies here.

Sandy: there are free online utilities for disassembling GIFs. I understand fully your time constraints. Let us reopen the point when we both have more time.

Michael: the films and pictures tend to freeze the time and it seems things were happening slowly and lasted for a long time. Prayer Man was not at his post, so it seems to me, in Hughes film when the motorcade was just passing by. We do not know for how long Prayer Man stay in the doorway in the way we see him in Darnell, however, Oswald was spotted by Occhus Campbell in the small storage room just two minutes after the last shot. Thus, Prayer Man if he was Oswald, stood in the doorway for about 90 seconds. I do not see any problems with standing in the one-foot-down-one-foot-up posture for less than 2 minutes.

Thanks, Michael. Although I still think it is Lee in that picture, I would hate to post something which may not be true. I am replacing that picture with another showing Lee Harvey Oswald having his left leg forwards.

Sandy: it is difficult to evaluate your comment on Lovelady being on a different step than shown in my example. In some stills, Lovelady's head would be above rather than below Prayer Man's elbow suggesting that either camera view angle was changing or Lovelady was leaning in some frames or even that he was stepping down. I will look into it when the time comes. My example only shows that it is possible to accommodate Prayer Man and Lovelady in this particular frame which is the most popular frame because of its sharpness. There are other services than PhotoBucket allowing you to get an URL and post a picture. One can have a free account with WordPress and can get URLs this way as an example. I could comment more on your point if I see the frame of interest.

To follow up with Prayer Man' bent left leg, a question can be raised whether the chief candidate for being Prayer Man did have a habit of resting the weight of his body on his right foot and bending his left leg. Here are few examples. 1. Lee Harvey Oswald with his Civil Patrol group. Please note Lee's left leg bent and pushed forwards. His right leg cannot be seen in full, however, it seems obvious that the weight of the body rested on his right foot. A very small bit of Lee's right leg can be seen if the picture is enlarged. N.B. Originally, a picture of someone resembling Lee and playing with baby June was posted here. 2. Lee Harvey Oswald in Minsk. 3. Lee Harvey Oswald in the infamous backyard photograph. I have added Andy's pose to illustrate that it was possible for Lee Harvey Oswald to stand this way. 4. One of three mugs shot pictures taken by the New Orleans Police Department in July 1963. Lee Harvey Oswald was asked to stand upright and he tried. Yet, this left knee appears to be slightly higher than his right knee, and the hips are asymmetric suggesting that the body weight rested on his right foot. There may be other examples of Lee Harvey Oswald's stance which I hope people may wish to add. The habit of standing in a particular way is hard-wired in our brains. It is an automatic program which is used especially if people behave spontaneously or are very distracted and carry out unrelated things (e.g. stance) automatically. Lee Harvey Oswald was able to manifest his right-foot preference even if he was asked to stand upright. I am therefore comfortable with the one-foot-down-one-foot-up posture which Prayer Man had assumed when he reached the doorway. Lee Harvey Oswald would do this automatically.

In the next, the same scene was used, however, the lines have been changed to illustrate the situation of Prayer Man having his left leg bent. The two yellow lines are approximate contours of what possibly is Prayer Man's left leg. The blue line is again the contour of Mrs. Maddie Reese, and the purple line is the edge of the hole in the front panel of the radiator. The same scene with the 3D model overlaid with a 60% blending. No part of the radiator can be seen in the region between the white lady and Mrs. Reese's figure because this region was covered by Prayer Man's left leg. Prayer Man, according to this analysis had his left leg bent. It is possible to calculate what distance was "gained" by bending the left leg in the knee joint and check if this distance would correspond to the height of one step (7 1/4''). If Prayer Man had his left leg bent, he had to support his body with his right foot, and the right foot would be located below the left foot. This is what the one-foot-up-one-foot-down hypothesis says.

Coming back to the problem of Prayer Man's left leg. Was it bent or not? The starting image is the frame with labeled 20130908-003636_2_1. This frame is perhaps the sharpest from the initial Darnell frames in which the lady in the white dress has still not covered Prayer Man's left leg. The doorway was enlarged to be able to appreciate the details and to verify the findings by viewing a frame devoid of any lines. The doorway was enlarged and a vertical dot line was drawn through Prayer Man's figure to indicate the approximate body axis. The expected course of Prayer Man's left leg should he stand with both his legs straight is highlighted with a yellow line. The purple line indicates the edge of a circular hole in the front panel of the radiator which is partially visible at a spot next to white lady's right arm. The blue line is the contour of Mrs. Maddie Reese's figure. Finally, the orange line delineates the visible part of the radiator. The next picture shows the same scene with the 3D model overlaid with a blending coefficient of 60%. The region between the yellow line (contour of Prayer Man's stretched left leg) and the blue line (contour of Mrs. Reese's figure) is filled with a radiator. As the small bit of the radiator is visible (orange contour) along with a part of the hole on the front panel of the radiator (purple line), the missing radiator in Darnell's still can only be due to an object which obfuscated the view of the radiator.

Bart: The identity of the small lady in Darnell would become more obvious if the other of the two ladies purportedly standing on the top landing would be identified: the shorter of the two would be Mrs. Stanton and the taller would be Mrs. Sanders. However, if the other lady is found then the question which lady was which is of lesser importance in Prayer Man context. As to whether the short lady could stand on the second step (the step below the top landing) I guess, and I may be mistaken, that she was in the shadow. The only shadow in the east part of the doorway was just in front of the glass window, and even there the shadow was only above a certain height. This can be seen in the 3D reconstruction. Should she stand on the second step in Darnell (or are you describing the picture you posted?), she would be really huge because we would need to add the 7 1/4 '' representing the height of one step to her body height.

John: would you be willing to post some of the film frames to make a case? While a reference to own blog can be useful, we discuss the research as it is presented here. Thanks.

The blurriness of what could be the legs and waist in Prayer Man's figure may also be related to the type of clothing he wore. This is the clothes which Lee Harvey Oswald wore on the morning of the assassination, confirmed by Marina Oswald's testimony. Mr. Frazier also mentioned in his Clay Shaw testimony that Lee Oswald wore a worker type of clothes which people would not be worried about if it got damaged.

Robin: Interesting questions. I may not be able to answer why is Prayer Man standing with his left leg bent, however, I can offer answers to the following two questions : Is there any evidence in Darnell's stills that Prayer Man had his left leg bent in the knee joint? Did Lee Harvey Oswald, one of the candidates for being Prayer Man, have a natural habit of placing his body weight on his right foot and pushing his left foot forwards? I need to prepare several graphics files to answer these questions which I can do in few days time. In absence of ready-made graphics I can offer a bit of thought analysis: if Prayer man stood upright with both his legs straight and close to each other (as other people did), he could only stand with both his feet either on the top landing or on the step below (second step). In case of standing on the top landing, he could not measure 5'9''. In such a case, Prayer Man would be about 5'1''-5'2'' to compensate for the height of one step (about 7''). The body height of 5'2'' would allow the top of his head to be at the level of Mr. Frazier's neck/shoulder line which is evidenced in Darnell's still. However, a tiny person of 5'2'' would also have smaller arms and the arms would not be at the exact height as they are in case of a man 5'9'' standing one step below. It would be similar to taking the newly found lady in the east corner of the doorway and fitting her to Prayer Man's body. This small person would not show the same distance between her right elbow and Lovelady's head as we see in Darnell's still. Importantly, the tiny person of 5'2'' would not have her left leg bent. In case Prayer Man stood with both his feet on the second step, the orientation of his body would not be exactly as we see in Darnell's still. The line of steps would force him to stand parallel with the plane of the glass door, and perpendicular to the western wall, very much similar to Lovelady's figure in my last post. To match the head against the door frame (which crosses Prayer Man's head), Prayer Man would need to be closer to the central railing and he would be fully lit by sunlight. Bending of the left leg is the essential component in Prayer Man case. It can be seen maybe better in earlier frames of Darnell when the white lady did not quite cover the leg area. I can understand that a visual analysis of this sort may be disputed because the images are blurred. However, the question can be rephrased differently: how would the particular spot, presumably covered by a bent leg, look if the leg was straight? The answer would be that we should actually see a part of the radiator, and if we do not see the radiator it is because something has obfuscated the view. Indeed, we see a small bit of radiator in Darnell's stills which is reassuring. However, thanks to Prayer Man's bent leg we see a smaller portion of radiator compared to what we would see should he stand with both his legs straight. The images are blurred and I understand that people are reluctant to say either way. Therefore, I will prepare an overlay showing what portion of the radiator would be seen if the view is unimpeded by Prayer Man's leg.

Ok, Sandy, since you showed interest, please find here an image just taken from a frying pan. It shows Lovelady (5'8'') at the spot where you and Thomas Graves have found him in Darnell's still. Please note that Lovelady's head must be positioned just under Prayer Man's elbow joint and in a certain distance from the brick column. Lovelady's position can be checked by overlaying the model with Darnell' still. I am not showing an overlay, only a working version of the model, however, you can appreciate that Lovelady's head is about where it is in Darnell' still. If Prayer Man would stand further to the back and closer to the glass window, the distance between his right elbow and Lovelady's head would be larger than it is in Darnell's still. Placing all doorway occupants into the doorway is equally important as placing Prayer Man. One figure validates another figure. If all figure locations match the original still, then also the location of Prayer Man can be trusted. If you zoom into the triangulated model of Prayer Man, you may see that his hands are just exposed to the sunlight while the rest of his body (except the left knee) is in the shadow. And one more which is closer to Darnell's view angle.

Thanks, Sandy. The height estimate for the lady in the east corner is provisional, although it is obvious that the person in question is a lady and a short lady. Only when all people are placed in proper locations and the depth of the doorway is eventually decided will the height estimates be final. You are right that moving people forward or backward on the top landing and tilting the doorway one can arrive at estimates differing an inch or so. As far as Prayer Man is concerned, you will see him one-foot-down as soon as the model is completed, hopefully before Christmas.

While Mr. Frazier would be able to confirm who Prayer Man was because he stood some 2-3 feet away from this person, I am afraid that Mr. Frazier would not clarify the issue. It may be a memory problem or something else.

This is a useful summary of people on front steps. Maybe the testimony of Joe Molina is relevant as he confirmed the presence of Mrs. Sanders in the top part of the doorway where he also stood. Mr. BALL. Did you go out on the street to see the motorcade? Mr. MOLINA. Yes. I was standing on the front steps. Mr. BALL. With whom? Mr. MOLINA. Right next left of me was Mr. Williams and close to there was Mrs. Sanders. Mr. BALL. Pauline Sanders. Mr. MOLINA. Yes. Mr. BALL. Did you see Roy Truly? Mr. MOLINA. Yes; he was standing with Mr. Campbell; they were going out to lunch. Mr. BALL. They were in front of you were they? Mr. MOLINA. Yes.

Robin: This is what I was able to collate thus far. Shelley's and Sanders's statements are the strongest to point to Stanton's presence on the top landing. William Shelley testimony for the Warren Commission: Mr. BALL - Why did you go to the front? Mr. SHELLEY - Oh, several people were out there waiting to watch the motorcade and I went out to join them. Mr. BALL - And who was out there? Mr. SHELLEY - Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, she's with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards. Mr. BALL - You were standing where? Mr. SHELLEY - Just outside the glass doors there. Mr. BALL - That would be on the top landing of the entrance? Mr. SHELLEY - yes. Pauline Sanders, FBI report, 3/19/1964: … I took up a position at the top of the front steps of the Depository building facing Elm Street. To the best of my recollection, I was standing on the top step at the east end of the entrance. I recall that while standing there I noticed Mrs. Sarah Stanton standing next to me, but I am unsure as to the others. Mrs. Stanton is likewise an employee of the Texas School Book Depository… Pauline Sanders, FBI report, 11/24/1963 “She said she did not see OSWALD during this time and she stood in the last line of spectators nearest the door to the Texas School Book Depository building.” [AS: if Pauline Sanders stood nearest to the door and Sarah Stanton stood next to her, then Stanton also stood on the top landing.] Buell Wesley Frazier, interview for the Sixth Floor Museum, August 27, 2013, 33’50’’: Mr. Fagin: In the chaos that followed the shooting, did you see Oswald at all? Mr. Frazier: I did. This was all... I do not know exactly how many minutes later, but the lady I was standing next to. Some of the people, Bill Shelley and Mr. Billy Lovelady, they went down towards the Triple Underpass because before they went down there, a lady come by, a woman came by, and she was crying and she said "Somebody has shot the President". And so we looked bewildered. And I turned to Sarah: she said "She said somebody shot the President", I said I doubt that's what she said. She said that she did say that. So we stood there for a few minutes, and, and I walked down to the first step, where Billy was standing down there, by myself so I looked around. And it was just total chaos there. And then from there I started to go down to see if I could find Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady, there was so much chaos down there. I said, well, I better go back to work, go back to the steps, so now, and I did, I walked back to the bottom of the steps, and then I walked out to the corner of the building right there where Houston comes up beside the building. And I was talking to someone, it was a lady, and I looked to my left, and come walking along the side of the Texas School Book building was Lee Oswald. Billy Lovelady, Warren Commission testimony: Mr. LOVELADY - That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there. Mr. BALL - You ate your lunch on the steps? Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - Who was with you? Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behind me Mr. BALL - What was that last name? Mr. LOVELADY - Stanton. Mr. BALL - What is the first name? Mr. LOVELADY - Bill Shelley. Mr. BALL - And Stanton's first name? Mr. LOVELADY - Miss Sarah Stanton. Mr. BALL - Did you stay on the steps Mr. LOVELADY - Yes. Billy Lovelady, HSCS testimony, 24’50’’ , http://www.prayer-man.com/tag/hsca Lovelady mentioned Frazier, Shelley, Stanton and some other ladies as standing on steps. Notably, Lovelady stood on the top landing at least during a part of the period when the motorcade was passing in front of the Depository. The three people he named were likely his closest neighbors on steps.

Robin: would you agree that if the other lady standing on the top landing was taller than the lady we are discussing then the shorter of the two ladies would be Mrs. Sarah Stanton? It appears that we need to find the other lady to be able to decide on the identity of this one. The 3D model is in the last stage of its development although still not completed yet. I am not sure about the exact depth of the doorway, however, the interval of possible doorway depths is already quite narrow: 41.5' - 45'' which is only about 10 cm in the metric system. The shorter the interval is, the more difficult it becomes to decide. Let me summarise the observations speaking in favor of Mrs. Stanton to be the person of interest: 1. The person of interest is a white Caucasian. 2. The person is not seen to be ascending in the earlier part of Darnell film and therefore this person was most likely standing on the top landing seconds or minutes earlier. 3. The person seems to be in shadow which means that s/he was standing very close (maybe touching?) the glass window. 4. The height of the person is about 5'3'' or 63''. The average body height of a woman at their fortieth in 1963 was 63.2'' with the standard error of the mean of 0.1'' . This data can be read from the National Health Examination Surveys published in https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/ad/ad347.pdf , Table 8. 5. The person of this height could only be a woman because men's body height values were 5'' larger than those of women. The 95% confidence interval of body heights in men (aged 40-49) in 1963 was 68.1-68.5. Thus, with a probability nearing certainty this person could not be a man. 6. In contrast, the height of this person would be close to the 95% confidence interval for women, 63'0 - 63''4'. The lady we see in Darnell's still ( about 63'') would be close to the lower confidence level (63.0'') or just below it. 7. The body height of this lady would be appropriate to match Billy Lovelady's description of Sarah Stanton as "heavy set and short" lady. 8. This woman stood close to the glass windows and since she was short, she would not be seen in films or pictures while standing nearer to the centre of the doorway. She would be obfuscated by the figures of taller people than herself, Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady, who stood close to her but in front of her. 9. The presence of Mr. Stanton on the top landing fits with the testimonies of Pauline Sanders, Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady, and with interviews given by Mr. Frazier. This lady would not be seen in Darnell did she remain at the spot closer to the centre of the doorway. We see her in one of the late Darnell frames because she moved from the more central spot to the east, possibly to be able to see the Tripple Underpass and grassy knoll area. Therefore, it was possible for Mr. Frazier to talk to Mrs. Stanton about the shots when shots rang out (she was standing closer to him than in the Darnell' still) and to move about one step to the east later to be able to see more of the scene of interest which was the grassy knoll- Tripple Underpass area. The late part of Darnell's film would be shot about 40 seconds after the last shot giving plenty of time for Mrs. Stanton to move about 2 feet eastwards from her previous location at the centre of the doorway.

After matching the manikin and the unknown human figure in Darnell's still, I measured the body height of the person by attaching a yardstick to manikin's body. The inches above 5' are depicted as "teeth" in the orange strip (the 6th foot). The person was about 5'3'' tall. The next two pictures illustrate the distance between Mr. Frazier and the unknown person. The body height of this person would match the average body height of a woman in 1963 born in the 20th of the last century. Based on witness testimonies, Billy Lovelady's description of Mrs. Stanton, and the proximity to Buell Frazier, it is very likely that this person was Mrs. Sarah Stanton.

I have made some analyses as to the body height of the person standing in the east part of the top landing. I have fitted the 3D model (a third-generation model based on measured dimensions of the doorway; the depth of the doorway was set to 115 cm (45'') in this analysis). A manikin of woman sized 5' - 5'6'' was matched to the human figure of interest in iterative steps to reach the minimum disparity between the model and the person seen in Darnell's still. The figures below show the best solution with a minimum disparity between the manikin and the figure in Darnell's still, overlayed with a factor of 90%, 80%, 70% and 50%. The higher the factor, the less of the 3D model is seen in the overlay.

Mrs. Avery Davis could perhaps be the lady standing next to Mrs. Ruth Dean. Mrs. Davis in her affidavit stated that she has stood on one of the lower steps.