Pamela Brown

9 hours ago, Pete Mellor said:

I've never read Goldman, so my only comment would be, how does he know the first two shots caught Lennon in the back and spun him around.  The Roosevelt surgeon & nurses describe 4 entries from the front from relatively close range, upper left chest.  Are those bullet holes in the vestibule glass too low.  With these doors opening inwards I wonder how Chapman's shot position could cause these holes.

The kicker is that this was another open and shut case, the perp admitted his guilt on site and so it seems the NYPD didn't require any detailed follow up investigation.  Hence the anomalies and confusions today.

I am taking Goldman's description as a suggestion...

The bullet holes in the vestibule glass are where they are...it is up to us to determine why...

Is this Minnegeddon?

https://theothermozart.wordpress.com/2022/05/15/nearly-2800-days/

David pontificates far and wide, imo, in his distress over John having been rushed to cremation, and cremated at all, as that was against John's wishes...without, however, mentioning where the cremation took place...pp 176-178

Also, in David's 'recap' on pp 186-187 he mentions the rush to John's cremation without citing just where it took place...

Why is that?

Is David being intentionally vague, or does he not know?

Would revealing the location give us information he does not want his readers to have?

If so, why?

Regarding the position of the gunshots in the wood and glass windbreak, Goldman, of all people, has an answer...

The first two shots caught Lennon in the back and spun him around. (p684)

I find David's explanation falling prey to the fallacy of false alternatives, when he says, on p187 'h bullet holes in the glass panel ...were simply in the wrong place.'

The bullet holes are in the 'right' place.  

13 hours ago, Pete Mellor said:

I reckon that's the idea.  Jack Jones' book is a waste of paper.

It is such a disappointment.  Surely a smokescreen...

But why? Just what is there that must be covered up? Or protected?

7 hours ago, Pete Mellor said:

Who was driving Lennon that night remains a mystery.  However, I've read that the Dakota driveway is too tight for a large limo's easy ingress & egress.

I've stood outside the Dakota myself in the 90's and seen the arrival of people exiting a limo on the street & walking across the sidewalk into the entranceway, so it's probably the usual thing, then and now. 

With all due respect, I disagree. I have spent time at the Dakota as well.  There was plenty of room for the limo in the Dakota driveway and courtyard and it would have been the logical place for them to exit, especially at night...  

This was also told to me by a garage attendant I spoke with who was there that afternoon and evening.  In addition, there is a statement by 'audio' on the Steve Hoffman forum that says the same thing:

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/lennons-death-lingers-for-witnesses.66941/

I think it was common knowledge that the limo drove into the Dakota courtyard for the Lennons to exit. They did not have their regular driver, and what happened the night of Dec. 8, 1980 was an anomaly....

I have just spent a fortnight with this book, and I am more confused now that before I began to read it...

Here we have Chapman psychoanalyzing himself...enough psychobabble to fill a number of garbage pails..

https://www.amazon.com/Let-Me-Take-You-Down/dp/0812991702

What do we learn of Chapman's motive? Depends on the hour...

Did he act alone or was he being goaded into this by someone else? 

Was there some sort of deal in regards to his decision to plead guilty? A deal that fell through, and has left him in prison (not a mental hospital) for all this time?

I don't see those issues being dealt with...

For starters...

However, I'm hoping David will...

I have just received David's book.  I am looking for the section on the limousine.  I am sure, when I find it, that it will delve into the mysteries of just who was driving the Lennons that night and why they did not make sure to drive them into the center courtyard of the Dakota, where they could have safely disembarked...

It is not out of the question (positing that Chapman was a man can) that the limo driver was intentionally negligent...

22 minutes ago, David Whelan said:

Have you read it?

I will when it arrives, but that is not relevant to my point, which is that it seems to me you were trying to posit an appeal to authority, which we all know is a fallacy of logic...

6 minutes ago, David Whelan said:

My book addresses all of these open areas and uses corroboration to explain the actual truth of the event.

With all due respect...your book presents your position on what you think happened...

19 hours ago, Pete Mellor said:

There were four witnesses who saw Chapman and doorman Perdomo after shots were heard.  All four place Chapman at the left side of the entrance of the driveway (the doorman booth side).  Perdomo & Chapman also stated same.  Chapman also said he was twenty feet away from Lennon when he fired shots.

Why were two different types of bullets recovered from John's autopsy, 1 x hollow point & 1 x 38cal?

That is an open area, so not easy to pinpoint.  

Chapman says a lot of things. I would look for corroboration to what he said.

Has Chapman tried to account for the two types of bullets? 

I also read somewhere that Chapman nodded at Yoko...

19 hours ago, Pete Mellor said:

The limo was on the street.  According to statement Yoko walked down the driveway, followed by Lennon.

But we don't know anything more specific than that? Before or after the driveway to the courtyard? 

I read that Yoko may have been 40 feet ahead of John.  

37 minutes ago, Pete Mellor said:

& that's the million dollar question David.  Well, one of a few million dollar questions.

Was Lennon seeking help when he entered the vestibule?  Chapman standing at his shooting position just inside the entrance could not have hit John in the front, nor caused the bullet holes in the glass doors.

What caused the bullet holes low down in the glass vestibule doors?

If the Roosevelt hospital medical statements of Lennon's gunshot wounds are correct, i.e. shots entering left front upper chest, from relatively close range, causing vital arteries to his heart to turn into 'mush' that in their opinion would cause instant death, then how did John walk up steps, through another door into the concierge's area and on into security office to say "I've been shot"?

If Chapman was using 'hollow point' bullets how did three of the four hits exit Lennon's back?

Exactly how did Jay Hastings' shirt front get covered in blood?

Where exactly, in front or behind or towards the courtyard, was Yoko when John was hit?

Why do all the statements given by the Dakota staff etc., not concur with each other?

Yet, in spite of all the unanswered questions, anomalies and non-investigation of this open and shut case, the world knows that Chapman shot Lennon, no question about it.

Did John and Yoko climb out of the limo on the street, or did the limo turn into the driveway leading to the center courtyard first?  

21 hours ago, David Whelan said:

 

 

 

 

With all due respect, I posted the link just once...

If there were 'no witnesses' how do we know just where Chapman was standing in relationship to John?

https://people.com/taxi-driver-who-saw-john-lennon-murder-thought-someone-was-making-movie-8411796

Update...food for thought...

https://dylagence.wordpress.com/2021/03/12/a-possible-connection-in-the-vortex-odd-references-in-bob-dylans-my-own-version-of-you/

https://www.upstate.edu/whatsup/2011/1207-dr-david-halleran-the-surgeon-who-tried-to-save-john-lennons-life-recalls-the-events-of-dec-8-1980.php

I have just uncovered a shocking connection...

Update...

https://dylagence.wordpress.com/2021/03/12/a-possible-connection-in-the-vortex-odd-references-in-bob-dylans-my-own-version-of-you/

And BTW, if anyone is looking for a reason as to why John Lennon was assassinated, (as opposed to being killed by a deranged fan) I might be able to give you 40 million reasons...

11 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Maybe so, but can’t you stay out of it? You’ve made your point several times. 

Exactly...

11 hours ago, Michael Griffith said:

Humm, if I said that about you, I'm pretty sure I'd get a moderator warning.

Anyway, I think it is embarrassing that this thread is still going. The case for a John Lennon assassination conspiracy is ludicrous--it is built on reading miles between the lines and on choosing to see dark, sinister implications in meaningless discrepancies in the reports/accounts on the shooting.

With all due respect, I disagree.  I think there has been a cover-up of what really happened and why. Hopefully, this thread will reflect a willingness to agree-to-disagree, so that research can move forward easily...

Thank you, David.  I will be reading your book shortly.

I do agree that the assassination of John Lennon deserves its own thread. I think you are already demonstrating, and I sincerely hope that I can, from my unique perspective of the Bob Dylan connection, as well, the fact that the whole story of what really happened to John and why has yet to be fully revealed or  acknowledged...

I can also add that, by odd coincidence, when I asked on the rec.music.dylan group where Bob was on December 8, 1980 and just what he had to say at that time about the murder of John Lennon, not only were there no answers, but that board, and also rec.music.beatles, where I subsequently asked that question, have been spammed with posts in the Thai language ever since... rmd has settled down a bit, but rmb is unusable except through a filtering site such as novabbs.com.

Also, maybe an odd coincidence that someone seems to be trying to mess up a couple of my social media accounts.  And, last but not least, my laptop briefly went haywire, but fortunately, the wizards at our local Apple store were able to quickly restore it...

So I think we have a mystery that deserves to be unraveled...

I've been reading Jack Jones' Let Me Take You Down, and find it both curious and perplexing.  We have Mark Chapman psychoanalyzing himself, basically.  Over and over. There is obviously an agenda and something being concealed. It's just too pat...which convinces me more than ever that MDC had someone (or more than one) egging him on.  

I see the guilty plea and subsequent no trial as indications that whatever these people or influences were, they were to be kept secret.  

And, to take it one step further, I put my bet on Bob Dylan knowing whatever these things represent and hinting to them in MMF...

This is hilarious...good job John/Jim!