Michael Walton

Ray, my own interpretation of the back of the head wound looks something like this but only after you peel back the scalp. And obviously that is what's happening below because you can clearly see the scalp reflected over to the left: The photo you displayed above shows him with his head possibly covering up this wound and the scalp in the normal position, meaning you cannot see the open wound as in my photo above. So it's not a matter of your photo being fake; it's a matter of the wound not being able to be clearly seen unless you pull back the scalp. As weird as that sounds, there is a difference between the two.

Ray, what's important to remember is Dr. McC was there touching and looking at the body. How could we NOT deny what he actually saw and felt with his own two eyes?

Sandy - I think this was simply a matter of honest mistakes in the record, handwritten numbers where a mistake here and there could make it appear in Team Hardly's collective minds that this is the proof that more than one Oswald existed.

No and thanks for mentioning it as I learned something new here. Still, the body alteration theory sounds really far fetched like a lot of other far fetched theories. And now Lifton will bring yet another "revealing and amazing" theory into play with his "Rose in Dallas was part of the conspiracy" theory. Who are we then going to believe - the DC alteration team? Or the Dallas alteration team that tried to alter the body but was unable to because the Secret Service, with Jackie's support, wanted to get the body back to DC ASAP so they could, unknown to them (I guess) could have the body stolen onto a copter and whisked away for the DC alteration team to perform their meatball surgery? Also, I want to remind you that you brought up the decoy ambulance above - in other words one was empty to mislead everyone while the real one had his body and it was taken in through the back so the body alterations could take place. BUT - keep in mind that Lifton's theory is the body was taken out of the plane, put into a helicopter and flown out for the body alteration. So which was it? And if your reply was it was taken away in a copter, why didn't they just fly the body direct to BNH and carry it in the back? This would seem more reasonable and plausible to me because if we got two ambulances driving around in each other's shadows practically, wouldn't that have been a highly risky maneuver? It really is amazing how these professional murderers seemed to take a lot of risk in revealing their plot.

According to John McAdams, no other witness remembers this. Further, the autopsy photo shows no such suture. Sounds like another misremembered piece of testimony.

There's nothing in the record that says the throat wound was stitched up. David Von Pein recently posted here (I think or elsewhere) that the throat wound and trachea procedure looked "exactly like it did when he left the hospital" according to one of the doctors who was in there with the body. That's a frontal shot right there and nothing was done about during the body alteration theory. The back wound terminated there - that's proof that more shots needed to have been fired to hit JBC. That's conspiracy. So why didn't the body alteration team do something about it? Have you ever seen plastic surgery videos? These things take hours to do. It goes against all reason and plausibility ... They did a very poor job of it. But more reasonably, it never happened. Unfortunately for folks who want to believe that the case was a massive conspiracy with many side trips going on - body alterations and film faking and clones running around in each other's shadows - they simply cannot accept the fact of things being much simpler and plausible. The last thing this case needs is yet another crazy theory of Earl Rose(!) being in cahoots with the planners.

Lance thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.

Oh boy that sounds like another really far out, far-fetched theory to me. IMO and from what I read it sounds like Rose was only trying to follow legal protocol. I had no idea DL was going to try to make it a whole new theory.

As it is in life, Ray, it's probably because of a far more normal reason. Personally, I don't know the reason nor does anyone else. But as I described above, if they cut open the throat more to make the gash, why didn't they then poke a hole through it so it would lead to the back wound, the same back wound that had no exit, thus, completely ruining the single bullet theory. Wasn't the whole point of altering the body to get rid of any evidence of front shots? This body alteration theory line of thinking is similar to the Zapruder film alteration theory. The film certainly shows conspiracy. So if it was altered, why didn't they remove that portion of the film that reveals more than one shooter?

Micah, you may want to read this. The "surgery" claim was found to be incorrect and corrected. At the link, there's another link to MF from the agent: http://22november1963.org.uk/sibert-and-oneill-report What you have to ask yourself about the body alteration theory is this... What would they be covering up? For example, think a moment about the back wound, the one that's supposedly the entry point for the SBT. The wound terminated at Humes' pinky finger when he stuck it in. The above clearly clearly explains this; in other words, there was no exit point and proving that there had to be more than one shooter in order to create the throat wound. So then you have to ask yourself - if the planners snuck the body in to do alterations, why didn't they poke a hole from the back to perhaps the throat wound so they could then say that the back shot exited from the throat, thus validating the SBT? Of course we know that they didn't do this.

Hi Andrej, there's a pretty good record of what happened and it's been out in the open for years. Why wait for yet another book to come out? Here's a pretty good retelling of what happened in the trauma room: https://www.dmagazine.com/publications/d-magazine/2008/november/the-day-kennedy-died/ And here's what happened about the fight over getting JFK's body out of the hospital. According to Ken O'Donnell, one of JFK's closest friends and part of his Irish Mafia, he pretty much explained that it was Jackie who didn't want to leave the body: http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/removing-body-of-jfk-from-dallas.html Since we already know what happened then after 54 years, I can't imagine anything Earth-shattering coming out of this new book unless it's some kind of new conspiracy theory. Hope this helps.

I agree with you and it's why I've unnecessarily driven myself crazy not letting go with trying to debunk the Hardly Lee story.

Ken I don't know how familiar you are with this forum but you may want to go to a thread called GEMS. There many of the Hardly Lee ideas are thoroughly debunked. Hope this helps.

I do remember a short discussion with you on this Paul. Obviously that's where things will diverge for us. State Secret does it for me. I encourage you to read it. I can't remember where I read this but someone on here said LHO's whole training ground in the world of intel is while he was in the military. From there, and as SS shows, they used him and Webster as a dangle, they both did their false defections to Russia, and when LHO came back, he probably had high hopes he'd stay involved. They probably didn't quite know what to do with him at this point (his usefulness in Russia was over) but they probably kept tabs on him afterward. When the decision was made to kill Kennedy, they thought what better a person to be blamed for it than Oswald, a former defector who spoke Russian. I know you're not going to agree with this scenario but that's fine.

Jim, this really means nothing. Do you really think that just because Oswald, one of thousands going through the system, and his records could not simply have been misplaced that it proves there was some kind of Oswald double?

I actually agree with you on this. I know you don't care what I believe in but just for what it's worth I'm very much of the same mind.

Sandy, according to David L's story, they [meaning the military and medico and intel personnel] wanted to get the body away from the family so they could see the wounds and cover up all manner of conspiracy, meaning shots from the front or shots that would show that someone more than Oswald, the designated patsy, was the sole assassin. That's the BE story. The real reason for them putting an empty coffin in one of the ambulances and taking the real coffin with the real body and the real family was simply a matter of not creating a media storm in the front of the hospital. However, according to the news article about this, BNH was a secure site with no mob of reporters. Does all of this make sense? I don't know, nor do I know the reason why they'd want to have a decoy. However, what I'm confident about is this decoy story does not prove, nor do I think it happened, that BE story was the reason, that they hurriedly took the body through the back and had military and medico personnel in there doing head and other alterations. You have to ask yourself - what would they be covering up? Think a moment about the back wound, the one that's supposedly the entry point for the SBT. The wound terminated at Humes' pinky finger when he stuck it in; in other words, there was no exit point and proving that there had to be more than one shooter in order to create the throat wound. So then you have to ask yourself - if the planners snuck the body in to do this alteration, why didn't they poke a hole from the back to perhaps the throat wound so they could then say that the back shot exited from the throat, thus validating the SBT? Of course we know that they didn't do this. This type of story is similar to those who believe the Z film was faked. What did they fake in it? The film proves conspiracy...did they forget to do those alterations after going through this elaborate faking of the film? The same with the body alteration in DL's BE story. It flies against all reason and plausibility, similar to the Hardly story and the Z film alteration story. Like another researcher said recently, it wasn't all that complicated to murder Kennedy and once the deed was done, it was easy to control the story afterward, which is exactly what they did when they came out with the Warren Report. Why go through an elaborate deception of faking the Z film when it was easier to keep it from the public for 12 years; why alter the wounds when it was easier to just pencil in "back of neck" like Ford did before the WR was released?

It's basically background information about the record that David posted about the Foreign Service person mentioned in the document release. I just thought it was very interesting background information about him and how he committed suicide.

I want to get to the truth too. Just not in a way that comes off as a story or stories that are not based on facts. For example, Bill Simpich's State Secret is an excellent story that is based on the available record of LHO's life and "legend" during his false defection up until he was murdered on 11/24. As I said before, the decoy ambulance appeared to actually happen. However, it did NOT occur because the body was taken somewhere else to be altered to cover up or hide some as yet unknown cover-up of the body's wounds. Does it mean that personnel looked at the body BEFORE the autopsy officially began? Yes, that is a possibility. It does NOT mean however that any alteration to the body took place before the official autopsy began. As also said above, my apologies if my original post sounded like a wisecrack. However, my stand on this story of body alteration does not change.

David, my apologies. For what it's worth, my sister in law gave your book to me years ago when I was 18. I read it and was like, "Wow!" As time went on and I had the opportunity to study the case more on my own - and with the internet too - the body snatching and altering theory does not hold water for me any more along with many other out-there theories. Like for example the Hardly Lee theory. I think for me, there has to be some plausibility and real-worldness (not a word there but hope you know what I mean) for when people discuss this case. How would the military and intel and medico people even know what to cut out or alter on the body that soon after the murder when none of them really knew what the result was going to be? Another way I look at it is loose lips sink ships and this also applies to the planners of the murder. They really did not want this to be a huge deal, telling everyone it was going to happen. The fewer in the know the better. So one other researcher here said, "well, they took the body in Dallas..." as if the planners either 1) snatched it at Love Field, flew it to DC and did the cutting; or 2) or snatched it at Love Field, did the cutting and put it back on the plane to DC. To me, that's even more far-fetched. But back to your premise - people were moving around, crying, smiling, grabbing, walking...confusion reigned. I just find it very hard to believe that the organizers would have the time to do what your theory says. I do agree about the ambulance decoy though as I posted up earlier a story about that where they used a decoy to try to create some subterfuge to get the body - and most probably the family members - to Bethesda with as little disruption as possible. But to take that and other quotes and testimony and weave it into a body snatching and alteration story just seems to fly in the face of real-world actions at that time. But as for the snark, my apologies. EDIT - I also want to add for what it's worth that I'm sure you worked very hard on this. I know what hard work is having done so for many years writing and producing. So there's that as well.

Sandy, just for your info - I'm far from being a WC apologist. As a matter of fact I'm a CT supporter. I cannot, however, buy in to all of the far-fetched theories out there. Also, have you ever decided on where you fall on this case? I recall many posts ago that you said you were still studying the evidence and were agnostic about the case. It's totally your business one or the other but I'm genuinely curious. Thanks.

http://adst.org/a-personnel-tragedy/#.WjUOCN-nFPY

It's important to remember, but it appears no one here is remembering or is ignoring, is Pat Speers said the usual scalp flipping that is done during an autopsy was NOT done in this case because they said the head was so messed up they didn't have to do it. Therefore, if you're trying to orient the flap of skin you see in the open head shot to match the standard flipping, it would be incorrect doing so. Because it was NOT done like that. I'm puzzled too why the glass jar is such as issue to orienting the photos. In the top of the head autopsy photo, there is NO glass jar in it. Then in the open head one there is. Why does that matter to have the jar orient the photos? As I explained previously you can take two photos of the same subject but with different objects in them, crop and reorient one photo and overlay it on the other, and it still represents the same subject matter! The hole on the rear of the head, combined with Chesser's recent work on the X-rays shows this is the most likely outcome of a front to back tangential shot. Can someone explain this... How can an exit wound be that high up on the head? Why do you not see his body move upward from an exit wound from the top right of the head in the Z film? Instead, his body moves backward toward the car seat, as if someone put their fingers on his forehead and pushed him from that point. To get an exit wound that high up, you'd have to put a gun almost underneath of him.

It's all mistaken clerical errors, Sandy. That's all it is. Oswald was no more special back then than any other kid he was going to school with. In other words, out of the thousands of kids going through the school system, handwritten errors were going to be made by school officials, volunteers helping out, and others. If they even still exist, we could probably go back to my own school records and there could be a mistake or two. That's my explanation of it. It's not an Earth-shattering debunk of it and the reason for that is simple as well....it doesn't need to be Earth-shattering. They're just little mistakes, that's all. Like everything else in the Hardly Lee story, it's little errors here and there combined with a lot of other hooey that the Hardly story is all based on.

David, You might want to read this: https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/State_Secret_Chapter1.html It talks about the heights of both Webster and Oswald. Oswald based on the Marine photo was 5-9. The investigators in your photos above probably got the numbers off by...2 inches. Think about it - big deal. It's not a big discrepancy. And in the link above, even both newspapers described both Webster and Oswald as "...good looking 6 footers..." So they basically rounded it off to 6 feet. The point is - does it really matter? As myself and many others have tried to explain to you and Team Hardly, this is the whole faulty premise of the Hardly Lee story. Armstrong and Team Hardly have basically taken snatches of testimony, honest clerical errors, testimony from people 20 years after 11/22 and other mistakes and have stitched together the Hardly Lee story. Unfortunately, the Hardly Lee story does nothing to promote revealing the truth about the Kennedy case. As a matter of fact, it does the opposite - it muddles the picture of what happened and causes nothing but confusion and subterfuge.