11 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

 

 

"Kill 'em all", I say. "Let's just round 'em all up and take 'em out in the middle of a field somewhere and have a mass shooting of our own". "That'll fix 'em"

11 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Steve Thomas

 

Did she really say this? And on National TV?

What an incredibly thought provoking thread this is.

59 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Paul:

As far as I can see, the Z-film shows very clearly a flap of bone hanging over the right ear. I may be wrong, however, my interpretation is that a part of this flap, the back portion of this flap, separated from the skin and fell onto the backseat. The remaining flap of bone was turned back, it could even be Jackie who did that, basically closing the enormous wound on the right side of the head. However, since the back portion of the flap was already on the backseat, the Parkland staff saw the back part of the wound;  the wound was in reality much larger than the wound that Parkland doctors and nurses saw. 

It is a speculation on my part, however, I can envisage that the portion of the flap of bone seen in Z-film that was found on the back seat was retrieved by the SS agents and brought to Bethesda. 

The flap of bone hanging over the right ear can only be the result of a tangential shot (if this flap was pushed out by a radial force, there would be an entry wound above the left ear) and such a shot most likely had an entry in the right front temple and exit in the parietal region slightly medial  relative to the large flap of bone seen in Z-film. I guess this is what Tom Wilson and I were able to reconstruct from Mary Moorman photograph.

Detail of the exit wound in Mary Moorman photogaph:

 

 

Location of the exit wound in Mary Moorman picture:

 

Could the whole purpose of the apparent surgery to the head mentioned by agents Sibert and O'Neill be adding the missing part of the bone to cover up the tangential shot which would cast doubts on a shot from the back? 

 

 

The exploding out skull bone flap over JFK's right ear is clearly seen in several close up video pics.

JFK fell left and down into Jackie's lap immediately after. Jackie had to have seen this massive skull flap separation. Of course she would have tried to put it back in place.

Have you seen the Xrays of JFK's skull from Bethesda? My Gad! It is "obliterated" from back to front. Fractured everywhere. Splintered about.

In my viewing of the JFK head shot in slow motion and close up...I clearly see the top of JFK's skull take on a grotesque lifting expansion.

His skull was so instantly and thoroughly blown apart and out you wonder if the bullet type was an explosion on impact one.

I ask hunters here...have you seen deer head shots that obliterated their skulls as much as JFK's was with one shot, especially one of a Carcano bullet caliber?

8 hours ago, Steven Kossor said:

I think Abe got an initial payment from Life magazine of $25,000 for the print rights and then a renegotiated payment from Life of an additional $50,000 for all rights (including motion picture rights), on Saturday 11/23/63.  Long before the payout approved by Congress relatively recently ($16,000,000.00) Abe gave a portion to the widow of JD Tippitt; I don't recall any payment from Abe to Marina.  And then the family donated the film to the 6th Floor Museum which administers the copyright and asks gets an enormous amount for permission to reproduce each of the 486 individual frames.  That's why most people use drawings or "re-enactments" to depict what the Zfilm contains in publications or films.  David Lifton's Pig on a Leash is a good source on the background of the Zfilm, I believe.

$75,000 dollars in 1963 is equivalent to probably $700,000 in today's dollar value.

And what in Sam Hill reason should we have to give Zapruder's children $16, 000,000 of our tax dollars for in any regards to that film?

When Zapruder sold the rights to it for $75,000 in 1963...how can his survivors claim they are due another 16 MILLION for a film they don't even own the rights to?

Wow, what a massive shady windfall with our tax dollars that payout was. It doesn't make legal and/or financial sense to me.

How much was Zapruder paid for his film right after the assassination? Wasn't it between 100 and $200 thousand dollars? Equivalent to well over $1,000,000 + in today's dollars?

Then in the last ten years, didn't the survivors of Zapruder make another killing financially from his film?  Like over 10 million dollars?

Marie Tippit was sent a small fortune at that time also. Again, over $1,000,000 in today's dollars? And Marina Oswald was sent a huge sum right after the assassination as well.

An interesting side story to the event imo.

Poor Rose Cherami got nothing.

My wife told me that she was given the binder by a fellow who started a "collectible" gift shop on the main business/tourist street ( Alvarado ) in downtown Monterey, many years ago.

This guy was a collector and it was fun to look at the interesting items he had in his store. Years of collecting.

My wife used to frequent the shop. He had political buttons and she is a collector.

The shop only made it about a year before closing up. 

Not long before this fellow closed up, he engaged my shopping wife in national political campaign conversation which my wife is very interested in.

At some point he asked her if he could give her something. I assume it was kind of an appreciation gift to her for her shopping loyalty and friendly manner?

It was this binder. 

The shop owner told my wife that he was a volunteer on RFK's California primary campaign and that he was inside the ballroom of the Ambassador hotel in Los Angeles during the shooting of RFK there. He was manning a campaign brochure table there.

Amidst the chaos and grief and when everyone started to leave after RFK was taken to the hospital, he grabbed what he could of the campaign material left on the table.

Eventually ( many years later ) he put many of these into binders. The one he gave my wife is one. She didn't recall whether this fellow said he had more than one though.

That is the story as to how my wife obtained the RFK California primary campaign binder with material present at the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles the night of RFK's shooting there.

6 hours ago, Douglas Caddy said:

 

HA!

On 5/16/2021 at 5:06 PM, Benjamin Cole said:

Man, is it odd or what? But, as you may know, there are many directly conflicting accounts that day in Bethesda, some, like Osborne's, that are simply inexplicable. 

You would think Osborne, at some point in his career, would have realized he had a hallucination. Perhaps he never read other people's accounts of JFK's body. 

Again, it is mere speculation on my part, but there were so many conflicting accounts that day in Bethesda, by otherwise sane professionals, that maybe something was in the air. 

On top of all that, this was a signal event in the career of everyone involved. Sure, a guy could forget this medical event or that one, in a long career. But the JFK autopsy? 

 

 

 

"So many conflicting accounts."

Starkly differing accounts.

The brain especially.

Up close within 1, 2 and 3 feet and even inches for hours Navy Corpsmen Paul O'Conner and James C. Jenkins had starkly differing accounts.

O'Conner says JFK's brain was literally gone except for macerated pieces ( before it was reportedly removed by Humes ) yet fellow corpsman James Jenkins said he "was" handed a brain. One that was "missing slightly less than a third of it's mass."

No one can quite agree on the actual removal of JFK's brain.

O'Conner ( who had personally performed many of these brain removing skull cutting procedures ) stated the skull cutting normally performed to do this wasn't done as there was no brain to be removed.

Jenkin's said he noticed cuts to the brain stem that couldn't be made in the way he was used to seeing.

Commander Humes said JFK's brain literally "fell into my hands."

Humes never mentioned the brain being weighed in his autopsy notes.

When asked why...he said simply..."I don't know."?

According to the final official report, JFK's brain weight was listed at 1400 grams. Heavier than normal men's brain weight...intact!

More than one Parkland doctor up close to JFK's head during his initial ER room treatment stated much of JFK's brain matter was missing in the massive blowout hole in the upper back right side of his skull. Also that brain matter was still oozing out of this hole while JFK was lying prone on the exam table.

One doctor said Jackie showed him a chunk of JFK's brain as she held it in her hand.

JFK's brain "matter" (not just blood and fluid spray) hit the two motorcycle officers directly behind the limo when JFK was hit in the head.

Brain "matter" was found all around the inside of the limo and even on the seat where JFK was sitting according to at least one SS agent who attempted to clean the seat of blood.

So, in the end, with all the brain matter being blown out and oozing out, we have a brain weighing 1400 grams listed as JFK's in the final Bethesda autopsy record?

And even that brain goes missing just days or weeks after the autopsy?

Please!

Just the extremely conflicting eye-witness testimony regards JFK brain condition, removal, study, disappearance and final official record aspect of the autopsy "alone"  from everyone present is enough to blow the entire affair into the realm of laughably absurd suspicion and conspiracy suggesting.

50 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

You had me with Angie Dickinson.  They told me I had one five years ago after a test before a hernia operation, couldn't tell me when it happened (worse stressful moment ever?).  A silent one it's called.  I keep mowing, walking a mile by the almost dry river, still pretty there.  Though too hot in the summer unless you go early.

Hope your better and continue getting more so.

Thank you Ron. I've had heart problems for years.

With this event they found a main artery 80% blocked. Put in a stent.

I don't know who was hotter...Angie Dickinson...or Carol Channing back then?

I had a thing for Channing. 

I found a link that shows the advertisement "ticket" flyer to a RFK speaking event in L.A. May, 1968. There are two of these in the binder.

Notice the celebrities attending?

Angie Dickinson, Carol Channing, Gene Kelly, Henry Mancini, Sonny & Cher, Shirley McClain, Andy Williams, Gene Barry, Jerry Lewis, Alan King, Mahalia Jackson, Rosey Grier, etc.?

Robert F. Kennedy Original 1968 S.R.O. Rally Flyer .

Thank you Paul for your thoughtful message.

I edited out my medical situation comment. I sometimes get too casual and off topic with such things and I realize such personal sharing isn't what the forum is about.

Back story?

I will have to ask my wife when she returns from her family visit.

I "think" she may have found this years ago during one of her "thrift shop" adventures. Not sure about that though.

There's other political items in the binder that were obviously not at the Ambassador hotel June 6th, 1968.

A brochure describing Eugene McCarthy's policy positions.

Two or three advertisement flyers for a rally talk RFK was giving in L.A. two days before the tragedy at the Ambassador?

On this are the names of many Hollywood stars who will be in attendance. Shirley McClain of course. Many others. Ed Asner maybe?

Later this morning I'll list the others. I don't know how to take pictures and post them on the forum.

While downsizing I came across a white plastic binder that apparently my wife had acquired years ago through some quirky means I assume.

She's visiting relatives and I haven't asked her about it.

She may have mentioned having this years ago before I got into the JFK area again when I retired. I had completely forgot about it until I found it three days ago.

On the cover are these typed labels:

Top half -

"Materials from the Presidential Primary Campaign of Robert F. Kennedy"

Bottom half -

"Removed from a campaign table at the Ambassador Hotel on June 5th, 1968, the site and date of Kennedy's assassination."

Upon opening there are maybe 20 to 30 items such as flyers, bumper sticker type banners. All RFK related. I believe these were probably available at the hotel that evening.

There are also two appreciation letters sent to RFK supporters in California signed by RFK. 

>>>>  CORRECTION - THEY ARE NOT SIGNED <<<<

There are other RFK and even JFK campaign flyers and other later political campaign items as well, such as a "George Wallace" campaign bumper sticker type decal.

How in the world my wife came across this binder of RFK political items is a fascinating mystery to me. I can't wait for her to return home so I can ask her about it.

Looking through the items taken from the Los Angeles Ambassador Hotel that tragic June evening in 1968 brings the event back in a much more real way.

Just thought I'd mention this interesting find.

Were multiple binders like this RFK one made? Maybe a money making deal?

While downsizing, I came across a white plastic binder that apparently my wife had acquired years ago through some quirky means I assume.

She's visiting relatives and I haven't asked her about it.

She may have mentioned having this years ago before I got into the JFK area again when I retired. I had completely forgot about it until I found it three days ago.

On the cover is a glued small paper sheet with this typed title and description:

Items taken from the Ambassador Hotel the night RFK was shot there ... !!!

Upon opening there are maybe 20 to 30 items such as flyers, bumper sticker type banners. All RFK related. I believe these were probably available at the hotel that evening.

There are also two appreciation letters sent to RFK supporters in California signed by RFK. The signatures look real but who knows?

I looked on Ebay and these letters look just like other "real" ones sent to other supporters of RFK.

There are other RFK and even JFK campaign flyers and items as well. There's even a "George Wallace" campaign bumper sticker type decal.

How in the world my wife came across this binder of RFK political items is a fascinating mystery to me. I can't wait for her to return home so I can ask her about it.

Looking through the items taken from the Los Angeles Ambassador Hotel that tragic June evening in 1968 brings the event back in a much more real way.

Just thought I'd mention this interesting find.

On 5/12/2021 at 5:30 PM, W. Niederhut said:

       Indeed.   It's a sign of how little the general public and even members of Congress, apparently, know about 9/11 and Phillip Zelikow's ridiculous 9/11 Omission Report.

       I saw a stat somewhere indicating that less 5% of U.S. citizens even know that Larry Silverstein's 47 story WTC 7 skyscraper was explosive demolished late in the day on 9/11.  The story has been completely blacked out of the U.S. mainstream media for almost 20 years now.

That video is simply truth revealing mind blowing.

1 hour ago, Dennis Berube said:

Good lord how lazy can you get? To constantly challenge information you do not have full knowledge of is a bad look. I find it difficult to believe there are honest people still pushing this. Seriously, take a step back and think how many facts have to be covered up or manipulated to come to this LN conclusion, its stunning and took that well funded, half ghost written Bugliosi disgrace over 2000 pages to cover up only a small fraction of what is known. It seems certain people cannot get themselves to think critically and require psychological/cultural approval from “mainstream” sources in order to accept a certain view. They constantly discount/question almost any piece of data that wasnt presented through a compromised mainstream channel. They imagine a world where somehow the government and their largest corporations are inherently telling the truth on big issues. Trusting the FBI? Are you kidding? They knew about Ferrie and let him go AND publicly reprimanded a DA. Case closed.  
Considering our current situation, the JFK case proved to be a crossroads in history that was enabled by the failure of the public/government to hold the perpetrators accountable, ever. The conclusion is obvious, the “government” is compromised at the highest levels and has been ever since, at least.  

Agree.

American newspapers, even the largest circulation ones, have been used as false info vehicles forever. Remember Judith Miller of the New York Times?

T.V. and newspaper contributor Robert Novak was a classic dis-info agent.

Bugliosi's JFK book is for non-thinkers.

1,000's of selectively chosen document numbers and statements simply copied and pasted word for word and put into a cynically charged titled binder.

The only creative content by Bugliosi was his 100 different ways of calling JFK conspiracy believers loons, nuts and crackpots.

What normal person could read even 20 of the 2,000 pages of Bugliosi's epic one sided minutiae filled masterpiece without going into a mind numbing, pre-hypnotic trance or simply falling asleep?

Ah, but a great and easy ( let underlings do all the file finding word ) gimmick on the always big money hunting VB's part to get a million dollar book advance windfall imo.

Also, regards the "Silver Slipper / Jack Ruby back of an ad flyer" note story:

When did Margaret Hoover's brother Robert Steele report this to the FBI? Just a few days after 11,22,1963? 

How could anyone have known anything about the Silver Slipper and Jack Ruby and thought this important enough to report to the authorities so soon after 11,22,1963 when so little had been reported about it nationally at that time?

Heck, 99.999 % of Americans didn't know anything except the most broad and general TV and newspaper news coverage of the event and the main characters involved until months and even years later.

On 5/11/2021 at 12:31 AM, James DiEugenio said:

And just think, with all that going on before, Hoover and Tolson go to the race track on Saturday.

Just 24 hours after JFK ( the President of the United States ) was brutally gunned down in broad daylight and the entire nation was in once in a lifetime concerned, worried and even sickened shock, Hoover's and Tolson's light hearted, highly publicly visible race track get away at that specific time was about the most cold blooded, lack of feeling and disrespectful acts one could imagine from one of our highest ( top 5 ) national figures. Especially our #1 crime fighting one.

This Hoover/Tolson play date wasn't just incredibly ill-timed and disrespectfully inappropriate, it also was a blatant expression of Hoover's true personal feelings toward JFK and RFK - who cares!

If there was anyone that 200 million Americans thought would be 24 hour busy in the immediate hours and days after their president was gunned down trying to investigate this greatest importance nation shocking and unsettling crime in our history ( equivalent to Lincoln's assassination in 1865 ) it would be our #1 crime fighting head of the FBI. 

What more graphic way could Hoover show his contempt for JFK ( and RFK ) than to go off on a fun gambling adventure at a race track less than 24 hours after JFK's obliteration?  Probably shouting and cheering on his horses in the stretch, sharing hot dogs, beer ( or soda pop? ) and racing form hunches with his boyfriend ... and maybe a "well connected" tipster as well?

On 5/4/2021 at 10:12 PM, Robin Unger said:

Title: Underpass from Industrial Boulevard, Dallas, Texas

Creator: Squire Haskins Photography, Inc. (Photographer)

Description: Underpass from Industrial Blvd., Dallas.

Date Created: 1952-05-29

 

Am I missing something here in this aerial shot of Main Street/Elm Street merging onto Stemmons? 

Or is that not the Stemmons Freeway at all?

If it was, it looks as if JFK's motorcade had just kept going straight on Main and through the middle of Dealey Plaza ( instead of dog legging to the right and through the Western side of Dealey ) about 150 yards after going under the overpass Main Street and Elm Street both merge onto the same highway - correct?

And wouldn't this one highway take them to the Trade Mart? 

Or, was this aerial view photo taken years before 1963?

When the Trade Mart wasn't even built yet? Or a new freeway built to get to it?

I'm confused. In this photo above it sure looks to me like Elm Street took you to the same highway Main Street did.

If so, there was no need for the snipers lair dog leg turn into Dealey. Yes?

Also, if I am an experienced presidential motorcade security planner and doing a pre-planning drive through of the route to see potential risk problems, I would surely notice the against protocol two 90 degree turns onto Houston and Elm. How this would require slowing of speed combined with the wide open exposure to the upper floors of the Texas School Book Depository building ( which just happened to be owned by super wealthy oil man, right wing fanatic and rabid JFK hater D.H. Byrd ) and most importantly ...

the incredibly obvious pergola wall, heavy low tree canopy and long, dark shadow picket fence that ran for hundreds of yards right above JFK's limo and would be the perfect camouflage hiding place for a sniper. Complete with a wide open, no crowd escape area of the parking lot and rail yards.

I just know I would have spotted this risk potential.

And I would have assigned two or three or more officers directly behind the top part of the grassy knoll as JFK passed by underneath.

Ah, but who am I to think that little old Jr. High school boy me could ever come up with anything close to the security experience and brain work of those in charge of JFK's motorcade route security?

2 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Massive rally at the Matt Gaetz/Marjorie Taylor-Greene religious revival tent meeting.

Steve Thomas

Patriots for Gaetz!

39 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

Joe,

 Charles Cabell.

   That thread had numerous detailed comments and references about Lansdale by Steven Gaal, Ron Ecker, Cliff Varnell, David Andrews, and others.   (I hadn't discovered this Forum at the time.)

    A very interesting read.

Was it Lansdale? - JFK Assassination Debate - The Education Forum (ipbhost.com)

Yes, several here have seen and accessed that thread many times. It has a lot of information related to Lansdale through some very high level acquaintances.

Curious what Lansdale thought of General Edwin Walker...if anything.

And Robert Kennedy's action to commit Walker to a nut ward over Walker's inciting ringleader actions at Ole Miss at Oxford?

Also, whether Dallas Mayor Earl Cabell might have known Lansdale through his brother Charles ( Dulles's right hand man?) well enough to have personally met him? 

And how about the most extreme right wing groups centered in Dallas at the time ( JBS, etc. ) and their world's most wealthy men funders like H.L. Hunt?

Wow!

Did Roger Craig ever describe his take of the shot sequence?

I know he was not actually in Dealey Plaza when they were fired, but right around the corner on Main.

And Craig did say he heard the "reports."

How about the many press men in the motorcade?  Did any of them describe a sequence of the shots?

Did not one member of the press in the cars behind the presidential limo have any sound recording device operating when they got to the Houston Street turn off from Main?  Something they could have been talking into like a tape recorder?

Except for a left open motorcycle radio transmitter, we have not one sound recording device going in or near Dealey Plaza while JFK was being driven through?

On 5/2/2021 at 6:02 AM, Sean Coleman said:

Possible Evalea Glanges on the left? 

Could be.  She was quite young at the time - in her mid-twenties?

In her well known decades later TMWKK documentary "through and through bullet hole" interview her hair is of course greying and she looks around 60 in age.

However in the Parkland emergency entrance photo RU posted we see some plainclothes agency men doing something with the presidential limo. 

One of them is actually sitting in the driver's seat with his legs hanging out the open door. Two others are standing on either side of the back passenger area using their hands to perhaps begin the process of preparing the limo to have it's hard top installed. The trunk is open and something like a tarp is visible.

Gangles stated that as she was examining the hole in the limo windshield she was practically leaning on the hood at which point a "security officer" jumped in the limo and backed it out away from her and she never saw it again. So, obviously her up close look at the limo must have taken place after this photo was taken.

The Limo Windshield, Bullet from Front

 

 

 

 

SCGATOR2001

A witness tells how she saw the hole in the limo windshield before it was taken away. Her description matches the Ford Manager ...

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