Denny Zartman

Here's my own list of people who I think were most significantally involved, based on the books I've read over the last few decades. This list is subject to revision, and in assembling it I've attempted to be neutral as I can be. Some people listed below may also fit into other categories, but I decided not to duplicate names for the sake of clarity. People listed in the same category are not meant to imply that I think they all had an equal level of knowledge and/or active involvement. I believe some ground level participants might have been under the impression they were part of a counter-assassination team. I didn't include names of people who were pressed into cooperating after the fact or comparatively minor operational players (though whether or not they were "minor" is subjective.) I also feel as if I should address my feelings on LBJ's possible involvement in a separate post. 

 

Top player:

Allen Dulles

 

Possible other top players:

Richard Helms

John J. McCloy

Lyndon Johnson

 

Organization and planning:

James Angleton

William King Harvey

Edward Lansdale

 

Close to ground level:

E. Howard Hunt

David Atlee Phillips

David Morales

Frank Sturgis

Roscoe White 

Jack Ruby

 

Possible close to ground level:

H.L. Hunt

 

Ground level:

Umbrella Man

Dark Complexioned Man

William "Tosh" Plumlee

Eugene Hale Brading

Bill Shelley

Lee Harvey Oswald

 

Possible ground level:

Malcolm Wallace

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I think there were three teams of two, a shooter and a spotter, located 1. Knoll, 2. 6th floor TSBD, and 3. Dal-Tex building, with an additional two spotters on the street, D.C. Man and Umbrella Man. I believe Eugene Hale Brading was one of the two in the Dal-Tex building, and that Oswald was either outside the TSBD taking pictures or was stationed inside on the first floor most likely to wait for a phone call and/or to turn the building power off for the duration of the assassination. I think Oswald or Shelley were the ones who turned the power to the building off and back on from the first floor breakers, though it might have been someone else.

55 minutes ago, Gil Jesus said:

I'll bet he won't answer because if he did, the answer would be "no". You'll notice that Mr. Marshall doesn't deny anything I've said with regard to police procedure. While I notice that he takes every opportunity to constantly brag about his qualifications and experience as a law enforcement officer, unforunately, this thread is not about him.

It's about the suspicious behavior between the Paines and the Dallas Police during the Saturday search of the Paine residence.

I'm surprised and shocked that an "expert" on searches such as himself never picked up on this. This is first-year criminal justice college course stuff. You NEVER let people who are at a property you're going to search leave that property until the search is completed.

The police went there on Friday and conducted a "consent search" at which time Ruth Paine got angry because police were taking some of her family's things and ended the search.

It's all in the Paines' testimony.

So she all of a sudden has a change of heart and "trusts" them on Saturday ?

After going through what she went through on Friday, would you ?

I'm sorry but there's something else going on here.

 

@Evan Marshall always bragging about his experience, but completely neglects to answer the obvious question at hand: When cops are executing a search warrant, do they let people come and go at will?

We all know the answer anyway.

 

20 hours ago, Mark Ulrik said:

Mr. STOVALL. [...] we searched the garage and concentrated our search there. Ruth Paine came out into the garage and I told you Ruth Paine was the only one there awhile ago--I remember Michael Paine was in the garage. I think he came up after we got there--I'm not sure it's possible that he got there after we got there, but I don't recall, but both of them came out in this garage and showed us the stuff that belonged to Lee Oswald and Marina Oswald and showed us the stuff that belonged to them and they left.

Had RP and MP wanted to flee or destroy evidence, they could've done so between police visits. Why should the cops suddenly become paranoid and begin to treat them as suspects and flight risks? They were fully cooperating.

If my home was being searched by the police during the investigation of any crime, I would not leave my premises until the search was over. This would be especially so if my home was being searched as part of the investigation of the crime of the century that had happened yesterday.

You seem to believe that guilty suspects are always uncooperative with police investigations, and that innocent suspects are always cooperative. Why bother having investigations and trials then? Arrest and convict those who are uncooperative, and let everyone else walk.

It has nothing to do with paranoia on the part of the police and everything to do with proper procedure. Assuming this investigation was on the level, at that point the investigators could not have possibly known for sure if Ruth and/or Marina or anyone else were involved or not. It could conceivably have been a Russian plot to assassinate JFK. The main suspect's Russian wife and her Russian-speaking housemate would therefore potentially be persons of interest. The alleged murder weapon had allegedly been in the same building with both of them just two nights before. Yet you think it's not unusual they made their Saturday shopping trip their top priority.

5 minutes ago, Evan Marshall said:

Well, I wrote and served a couple of hundred search warrants during two separate tours of duty at Detroit Homicide and I wonder how many those who are pontificating on the search of the Paine's property?

Well then let's hear it, if you're the expert. Tell us, did you allow potential suspects to leave while you were executing a search warrant?

I'll do my best to work on my own list for this thread. I generally avoid identifying specific suspects because I feel after doing so there's an occasional tendency to switch to defending a previously staked-out position and away from fairly considering any opposing information. But I don't see much harm in trying to sort through the names now and trying to determine who the most likely players were based on the evidence collected to date.

Good points, Gil. The police allowing Ruth and Marina to leave the premises is significant. For all the police knew at the time, the two were part of a plot and could have attempted to flee. At the very least, they could have identified which items did or did not belong to Lee.

33 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

LHO didn't live in Dallas in the 50's.

It seems the narrator of the song says he was born in 1952, which would make him 11 at the time Oswald was living at Beckley. Remarkable coincidence that it would be the same age as Glover and Hall.

32 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Sorry Denny, not to belittle, I respect your words.  But that next to last sentence triggered my memory.  He used to take me fishing, throw the football to me, he was a friend of mine. 

 

Wow. Very cool, Ron. Thank you for posting it. That's fascinating to find out there's a song that backs up part of Hall's story, right down to the street. I hadn't heard that song before. I wonder how it came to be written?

I think these are my last notes I can give on this book.

Donald Jeffries, author of "Hidden History", thinks McGeorge Bundy's drafting of NSAM 273 on November 21 is a giveaway to Bundy's involvement on some level. It seems to raise the obvious question: who, exactly, instructed Bundy to draft NSAM 273?

Randolph Benson, director of the documentary "The Searchers" gave me a lot to think about. Benson says his father was a fighter pilot at the time of the JFK assassination, and according to Benson's account, jets were not scrambled. Benson says his father knew right away that the assassination involved the highest levels of government because fighter jets would have been put on alert at the slightest provocation. I agree that, if it's true that jets were not scrambled immediately after the assassination, it's telling - especially considering that (from what I understand) Lyndon Johnson invoked the spectre of a possible international conspiracy the moment after he was told he was the new president. The assassination should have triggered a high military alert. If it didn't, in my view it's a powerful clue as to who was responsible.

A few more notes on the book:

I asked Jefferson Morley about Chana Willis. Willis claims that late in his life her father Freddie Philmon Spainhouer told her that he had led a Naval photo intelligence team in Dealey Plaza, and that Oswald was part of that team. Morley shot it all down immediately. Willis is apparently in the process of writing a book. In her "Killing Kennedy" interview she claims her father taught her photo manipulation techniques in a sub-basement of the Dallas Police station. I imagine details like that would be fairly easy to verify, which would go some way in judging her basic honesty. I'd go along with doubting her at this point, but her story is interesting and sometimes sounds plausible. Also, I have a nagging recollection of reading something long ago about a JFK film shot from another angle. My memory is that it was a brief scene from a short story or novel but I could be wrong on that. So, in my view jury's out on Willis until we see what kind of evidence she may have to back up the story about her father.

Saint John Hunt is a different story, because his father was unquestionably an insider involved with clandestine criminal political activity. E. Howard Hunt has also been linked with the JFK assassination outside of Saint John's claims.

Kris Millegan, who has done extensive studies on secret societies, is the son of Lloyd S. Millegan, former CIA branch chief. Kris believes that Edward Lansdale was a key planner of the JFKA.

Toni Glover, who was eleven years old at the time of the assassination had a very interesting little thing she said in passing. She claims to have woken early on the 22nd to get the newspaper and find out the final route of the presidential motorcade. Was the final route of the motorcade really not publicly known until the morning of the 22nd? If so, then doesn't that blow a hole in the lone assassin theory?

Glover recalls the man with the seizure and that the ambulance arrived a few minutes before JFK. She also says that the first shot was not recognizable to her as a rifle shot, while the second shot definitely was.

Pat Hall's grandmother owned & rented Oswald the room at North Beckley. Hall was also eleven at the time, and remembers Oswald as a friendly and gentle person who would stop what he was doing and play with the kids. She also claims Oswald stopped a fight between her brothers and admonished them against the use of violence.

I had already forgotten about it as life has been busy. Here are a few of my notes from the book.

Larry Rivera believes he has proven it is Roscoe White's body in the backyard photos. I'm not clear exactly how, since he mentions pupillary distance, and I'm not sure how he determined that from Oswald's face.

There is a brief mention of a mock JFK trial held in Houston in 2017, but no more detail. I've since learned that there have been seven mock trials? That's totally new to me. I had only been aware of one.

Larry Rivera mentions an author named Fred Newcomb, who wrote a book with Perry Adams in 1971 called "Murder From Within" Newcomb interviewed a number of witnesses, and Rivera has heard the tapes of these interviews. Apparently multiple police officers at the scene say the Zapruder film doesn't reflect what they saw that day. Other than that, there's not much more detail about what's on these tapes.

Rivera believes alternate patsies were Buell Wesley Frazier, another TSBD employee named Joe Molina, and Billy Lovelady, and that these alternate patsies explain the different "mistaken" identifications of the assassination rifle. Rivera also believes Bill Shelley was Oswald's handler.

The interview with William Matson Law was good. Law sounds genuine. I'm a fan of his work. One interesting tidbit I hadn't heard before: Law says he spoke with Marina on the phone and that Marina told him that she took the backyard photos, but that Lee was holding something other than a rifle. She doesn't specify what it was.

I know Judyth Vary Baker is controversial and that many doubt her. When considering the whole case, I mentally edit her out of the equation, like I do with Beverly Oliver. So, I haven't looked into Baker's story closely. She seems to have convinced some researchers that she's genuine. I don't know what evidence they're basing their belief on. I can only assume it's more than just her word. But in this interview one of the things she claims is that James Angleton was Oswald's direct handler, and I have a tremendous difficulty believing this was the case. I want to be fair, but honestly there were more than a few things she said that made me feel skeptical.

Thanks to @Joe Bauer and everyone for sharing their memories with us here.

3 hours ago, George Govus said:

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Ceci n'est pas une pipe.

It was cool. It just ended now. Very interesting talk. The hour flew by!

7 hours ago, Leslie Sharp said:

I understand, and I was just joking.

And I agree, and am glad that whoever had the lever saw the merits in reopening the thread.

 

7 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

For all those condemning the moderators for shutting down the 56 years thread, it's not.  Just moved.  It's been re-opened.  Anyone can converse there, civilly I assume, or it may still be shut down permanently?

How much you want to bet that it will be back here in no time?

Killing Kennedy - Book by Jack Roth, 2022

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The researchers:

 

David Mantik

Doctor, physicist, and author, made detailed studies of the autopsy X-rays and Zapruder film.

 

Larry Rivera

Engineer, author of "The JFK Horsemen", photo analysis and motorcade motorcycle escort officers expert.

 

Phil Nelson

Author of several non-fiction books, including "LBJ: The Mastermind Of The JFK Assassination" and "LBJ: From Mastermind To Colossus."

 

William Matson Law

Author of "In The Eye Of History" interviewed key witnesses to JFK's autopsy.

 

Vince Palamara

Author of several JFK books and the foremost civilian expert on the Secret Service.

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New Orleans Summer of 1963:

 

Ed Haslam Jr.

Author "Dr. Mary's Monkey" about Oswald, David Ferrie, and Mary Sherman, a JFK mistress murdered in New Orleans in 1964.

 

Judyth Vary Baker

Scientist, author of "Me And Lee", claims to have been Oswald's mistress and partner in cancer research with Oswald and David Ferrie.

 

Victoria Sulzer

High school classmate of Lee Harvey Oswald, friend of Mary Sherman.

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My father was in the CIA:

 

Saint John Hunt

Son of Watergate figure E. Howard Hunt, who late in life claimed low-level involvement in the JFKA. 

 

Peter Janney

Son of CIA official Wistar Janney and author of "Mary's Mosaic" about childhood friend, ex-CIA wife, and JFK mistress Mary Pinchot Meyer.

 

Chana Willis

Daughter of Navy photographic intelligence officer Freddie Philmon "Phil" Spainhouer, who allegedly filmed the assassination from another angle.

 

Kris Millegan

Son of CIA branch chief Lloyd S. Millegan, studies secret societies like Skull and Bones. During World War 2, Lloyd worked in CIA psychological warfare with Edward Lansdale.

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Two little girls:

 

Toni Glover

Dealey Plaza witness, 11 at the time.

 

Pat Hall

Owner of the Oswald Rooming House Museum in Dallas, Texas, 11 at the time of the assassination, knew Oswald.

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Deep State and Fourth Estate:

 

Peter Dale Scott

Author of "Dallas '63" and other books, expert on covert operations by the US Government.

 

Donald Jeffries

Author of "Hidden History" and "Bullyocracy", expert on US political crimes and cover-ups.

 

Jefferson Morley

Author of "Our Man In Mexico" and "The Ghost", veteran Washington D.C. journalist.

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Psychological Philosophical and Social Perspectives:

 

Frances Shure

Counselor and adjunct university instructor at Naropa University in Boulder, Colorado, specializing in psychology.

 

Lee Basham

Philosopher and professor at South Texas College and the University of Texas Rio Grande Valley.

 

Dorothy Lorig

Councilor and psychologist.

 

David Denton

Social science instructor at Olney Central College in Illinois, teaches a course on political assassinations of the 1960's.

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Keeping the story alive:

 

Lorien Fenton

JFK conference producer and podcast host.

 

Jeffrey Holmes

Leads a Lee Harvey Oswald tour in New Orleans, Louisiana.

 

Randolph Benson

Filmmaker, "The Searchers", documentary about JFK researchers.

I have a quarter of the book left to read and hope to finish it tonight.

For me, the book seems to have peaked in the middle, as the second half (so far) is more philosophical and ruminative as it tries to take a look at the big picture. There's some interesting and thought provoking discussions there, but I'm more about searching out facts I hadn't read before. It's just not nearly as interesting (and potentially revelatory) as the "kids of the CIA" section.

2 hours ago, Paul Rigby said:

“We welcome the view of others. We seek a free flow of information across national boundaries and oceans, across iron curtains and stone walls. We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people.”

https://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/jfkvoiceofamerica.htm

Address on the 20th Anniversary of the Voice of America, delivered 26 February 1962, Health, Education, and Welfare Building, Washington, D.C.

Education Forum Mods: Get real. This only applies to Biden supporters.

The forum’s BPPT (Bidenescu’s Plunge Protection Team): Anyone who criticizes Biden is a Trumpo-Putinoid fascistic communist. Censorship of these people is a right and an obligation.

“What kind of peace do we seek? Not a Pax Americana enforced on the world by American weapons of war.”

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/50-years-later-jfk-peace-speech-still-inspires-and-has-been-scientifically-validated/

The forum’s BPPT (Bidenescu’s Plunge Protection Team): Slava Ukrayini! More arms! More woar!

Education Forum Mods: We’re studiously neutral, of course, but if anyone disagrees with the BPPT, we’ll close the thread concerned and banish it to the outer darkness. Need anything else, BPPT?

The forum does indeed have a problem, but it isn’t Matthew Koch, who should be reinstated immediately, if not sooner, not least so I can exchange opinions with him on a lunatic claim by Kristi Noem*. The real problem is twofold: the presence of a claque of Bidenescu regime propagandists for whom each and every issue is judged not on the basis of merit or evidence, but rather its threat or utility to the Bidenescu regime; and by a Deep State Dem mindset, sadly shared by its moderators, that fears debate and suppresses it whenever it receives an appeal from the whiners of the claque.

We need, in short, a new set of mods, one which more accurately reflect the diversity of contributors’ political opinions; and enforces, preferably as lightly as possible, its rules equitably.

* Noem went bonkers and claimed that China had spent the last 2,000 years plotting America's demise.

This isn't a Biden forum. It's a JFK assassination forum. Take it somewhere else, please.

I'm halfway through the book now. It's a series of interviews with a variety of people. At first I was worried because some of the interviews seem like they're answering a generic list of questions via email, but fortunately not all the interviews are like that. Some are very interesting and revealing. I'll try to go through it here later in a little detail. It's a good book so far.

I can say that somehow "Dr. Mary's Monkey" had slipped under my radar. I think I confused it with "Mary's Mosaic" and overlooked it. That seems to be a big miss on my part, because that story is wild. I'm going to have to get that book soon.

8 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Denny,

     As a participant on that monster 56 Years thread, from its inception, my perspective is that we had a lot of lively, informative, and humorous discussions about history and contemporary politics on the thread -- until about October of last year, as I described above.  It provided a forum for discussions about American history and politics, beyond the narrow purview of JFK's assassination per se.

     I suspect that other long-term 56 Years thread participants-- Douglas Caddy, Steve Thomas, Joe Bauer, Ron Bulman, Kirk Galloway, Matt Allison, Sandy Larsen, et.al.-- would agree with my assessment, but I can't speak for them.

    The thread only devolved into controversial, petulant arguments during the past few months, after Mathew Koch joined the forum with the express intention of disrupting and challenging the alleged "leftist" bias on the thread.  The exception is that, prior to October, most of us had pointedly disagreed with Benjamin Cole's denial of Trump's J6 coup attempt, and his promotion of Tucker Carlson's "Patriot purge" narrative about J6.  Ben had also repeatedly criticized the Congressional J6 investigation, while refusing to watch the actual hearings.  At one point, even James DiEugenio had urged Ben to watch the damning J6 Congressional testimony.

      Some of the recent arrivals on the forum, who became strangely aligned with Mathew Koch's MAGA movement, never really understood the history of the 56 Years thread.  They have also had a tendency to mistake accurate criticisms of their erroneous opinions for ad hominem arguments.

      In the end, Mathew Koch did finally succeed with his October 2022 goal of "owning the libs"-- not by speaking the truth about contemporary American politics, but by destroying what had previously been a friendly, informative thread.

I understand and appreciate that we have a lot of intelligent forum members here who are plugged into politics and that they would occasionally like to discuss other historical issues as well as current events. At times I was tempted to engage. But the thread was off-topic. Were you all having any success at convincing Benjamin that January 6 was a violent coup attempt? Because all I saw was everyone constantly going in circles on that issue, and almost every page filled with insults.

My point is that there are other places online to discuss other topics, even if just other areas of the forum. As I see it, having those discussions in that thread (and others) was/is 1. Unnecessarily fostering personal animosity and division 2. Cluttering the forum with off-topic personal invective 3. Getting no one anywhere when it comes to researching and studying the JFKA.

Just my opinion. I was not a fan of that thread. I thought it was ugly and reflected poorly on us all. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Thank goodness. In my opinion that thread has been a problem for a long time. The fact that it was not only allowed to continue here after becoming so controversial but promoted to a sticky sure appeared that, at best, angry and off-topic political arguments were tolerated, and, at worst, being officially encouraged. If that's an incorrect assessment, I apologize. But honestly that's the way it looked to me.

The personal vindictiveness I've seen here lately is dispiriting. I feel it's ultimately counter-productive. I have zero need to agree with any member of this forum on any topic outside the JFK assassination. If they have something meaningful to contribute to the discussion of the JFKA, I don't care who they pulled the lever for in the last election. Why dwell on it? Why go out of our way to attack each other over politics? I like reading the posts of those with good arguments and interesting bits of evidence. To develop a grudge against someone who has a solid JFKA argument because they hold an unrelated political opinion does me no good at all when studying the JFKA.

I don't see why so many here are driven to discuss divisive issues that are off-topic. If that must be the case, I'd suggest we state our positions succinctly, politely, respectfully, and refrain from personally attacking each other. If that's not possible, let's use the ignore feature or just take it to another Education Forum sub-forum. Aren't there enough opportunities to fight with folks about politics on Facebook and Twitter?

2 hours ago, Paul Rigby said:

Charles Gray

That man has no neck.

1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:

Suppose Kennedy's pre-mortem brain weighed 1500 g. This is not unreasonable in that the brains of some famous and semi-famous men were reported to have weighed as follows:

Roger Craig (1300 g), Vladimir Lenin (1340 g), J.D. Tippit (1350 g), Michael Jackson (1380 g), Corey Haim (1390 g), Ron Goldman (1400 g), Martin Luther King (1400 g), Lee Oswald (1450 g), Dale Earnhardt (1450 g), David Ferrie (1480 g), Christopher Wallace (1490), Dylan Klebold (1500 g), Chester Bennington (1530 g), River Phoenix (1540 g), Russell Armstrong (1600 g), William Pitzer (1625 g), and Andy Irons (1664 g).

In my view it still seems to be a bit of a stretch with a number of assumptions that are necessary to make the theory work. Do you know if all these weights quoted above are pre or post-formalin?

November 24: Ruby is so broken up about the death of his beloved President John F. Kennedy that Ruby is ready and willing to risk riding the lightning to relieve poor Jackie Kennedy of the unimaginable emotional trauma of having to come back to Dallas and testify in a trial.

November 22: Ruby wouldn't cross the street to see John and Jackie Kennedy in person.

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Apparently, to some folks, this makes perfect sense.