John Butler

I can see that some people don't appreciate this topic. Well, hold on. In the next post you can exercise your disapproval at a greater level.

Brad, If you saw your name on a post directed at Michael Walton I'm sorry. That was a typo. I was thinking of your post and Michaels post. Once again I have no ill will toward you. In fact the opposite is true. I always appreciate your posts.

I tried to leave the "Altgens 6, a different view" on Jan. 27 but, it kept popping up through time. It seems this topic is popping up again and again. I've moved on to another topic and will try not to respond again in this topic.

Michael, I've been waiting for your barbs and zings when I don't agree with your more reasonable posts. Your behavior is predictable. I don't read your posts seriously. I have done that in the past and found them uninformative and unreliable. I've broken what I call the Unger response which I have been using with you. I've decided not to respond to your attacks some time ago. However, the running to the editors needs to stop, hence this reply.

Brad, As always I appreciate your comments and will take the time to go through them thoroughly. They are always informative. I'm going to need to change my photo id. They might see how long my arms really are and start accusing me of really being a xxxxx, not just a forum xxxxx. I can see someone has edited this post. Sorry, I will not repeat the same mistake. As an apologia, it is awful easy to fall into replying in the same ridiculous manner after being attacked. Maybe this will help others to know there is a watchful eye and they will limit their comments to debate.

Chris Scally, Your explanation of the Hughes frame won't fly. Your frame is not the same as the frame I used. Your frame was a successful photo edit. My frame was not. By the way, where is Sgt. Harkness' big yellow stripes? I understand that most people look at a photo and do not see it in detail. But, you shouldn't have tried to run that gag by a person who is good at image comparison. This is typical Unger nonsense. Chris, see if you can get Unger to provide a high quality image of the same frame??? The visual record is littered with this kind of thing. As an example, one out of many, the Bell film shows no one on the railroad bridge and the presidential limousine approcaching it. Just a few frames later the railroad bridge is populated with railroad workers and the limousine has barely moved in its direction to Parkland. I theorize that: 1. The frame I used was missed by the editors 2. Knowing that one frame or so will not be see by someone watching the movie they left it in 3. There was just to much work to do and skipping a frame lightened the huge burden of editing the Dealey Plaza material. Mary Moorman's high heels is a good example of that 4. They knowingly left it in to later prove fraud in the film, that is if they were caught The frame I showed is a later frame in the sequence and does show film editing clearly. There is a "cut apart policeman".

Robert Hughes And The Cut Apart Policeman And, other pecularities Something must have happened at the intersection of Main and Houston. Otherwise, if everything was innocent and above board why doctor photos and films showing the area of Main and Houston and later down the street at the Court Records Building. There are now seven pieces of evidence involving the alteration of the visual record showing the presidential limousine passing through the intersection of Main and Houston and later down the street at the Court Records Building. Altgens 5- the front tires and other things Marie Muchmore- the flat headed, see through man, Phillip Willis Elsie Dorman- the alteration of the film using black paint and other techniques to distort and obscure Patsy Paschal- skips the intersection in filming, also very dark and obscure, and the giant Jackie image on Main Street John Martin- the see through police helmet 8 assassination films- skip the events of the limousine passing through the area of the Court Records Building which is far too many for a coincidental occurrence And, now Robert Hughes and the cut apart policeman Why insert a policeman here? What is being hidden? There are some other odd things in Hughes. We have already seen the Willis family in a Hughes frame that shows them in the wrong place at the wrong time. In the following Hughes frame we get to see the Ghost Train of Dealey Plaza. The crowd appears to be moving in all directions but no one does for a period of about 50-60 frames or maybe 3 seconds. Odd? Maybe DPD Officer J. C. White said he knew nothing of the assassination on Elm Street because a long, slow train passed through during the assassination. Later others such as Officer J. W. Foster admitted to this train being there. Lots of luck in trying to find a photo of this train. Remember, Rosemary Willis’ testimony of the FBI keeping the Willis slides for years. The train was edited out of the slides. Why? What is being hidden? And, for those folks who believe there was more than one shooter in Dealey Plaza you need to consider shooters outside of Dealey Plaza. On North Houston Street there are buildings and a construction area that are just a step away as far as rifle distances are calculated. This might help those counting shots that add up to more than the usual 3 heard. Shots from that location would probably not be heard above the motorcade noise. This might be a preferable explanation for unheard shots over suppressed or silenced rifle fire that doesn’t work very well.

George, Fascinating topic. I call Dealey Plaza Murder Plaza. You will be hard pressed to find a better place for an L shaped ambush. The geography of Dealey Plaza allows one to shoot from anywhere with an expectation of hitting your target. This is due to the short distances involved. Because of the Zapruder film nearly everyone envisions a small kill zone. There is an opportunity there for a killing zone stretching from Main and Houston to the Triple Uderpass. You can even shoot from North Houston past theTSBD. I think someone jumped the gun and botched the assassination and that had to be repaired. There were wounds from the front and back.

Speaking of trolls? Or is it speaking to trolls? Ah....come on fellows. They only moved the assassination 200 feet or so. What's the big deal? What does it matter now? i've seen and read enough LGR junk. I don't need any more.

Now to sum up. How many peculiarities are in the Elsie Dorman film and the Zapruder film? I’m sure I am not listing all. Elsie Dorman: In the opening of the film it is a bright sunny day. Everything should be clear and visible. It is not, imagery has been obscured with black paint or ink, frames are missing, and blurred into distortion. The crowd on the NE corner of Main and Houston has been obscured by darkening with painted circles. Many frames show no one in the presidential vehicle as it travels down Houston Street. Occupants are either obscured or missing. Some scenes along Houston Street are repainted from earlier versions. One cannot restore images painted over by black paint. They must be repainted or use a different version of the film that has not been heavily butchered. The 6th Floor Museum’s restoration suggests a series of impressionistic paintings. A comparison of the Groden Version revised to the Museum’s restoration also suggests repainting. Many frames are magnified then cropped to lose information about the presidential limousine. This is a striking narrowing of focus. There is a series of silver balls or bubbles seen in many frames in front of the presidential vehicle. What are they? On South Houston Street there may be a black man in a black apron that is later seen in Z frame 203. Did he have time to get there? The Dorman montage panorama has a number of problems. These basically try to obscure problems one might note in the film: The first frames show two sets of presidential vehicle and SS security detail vehicle. The later has a half hearted attempt to disguise it as the Johnson vehicles. The problem of the later part of the film being magnified and cropped to lost information concerning the assassination. The problem of the number of people on the SW corner of Houston and Elm differing in Zapruder and Dorman. Groups of people not seen in Zapruder are blacked out. This amounts to 10 people so that what is shown in the Dorman panorama agrees with Zapruder. 5 young couples at the SW edge of the walkway just before the grass. Two photographers are also there. These two people may be Pierce Allman and his friend Terry. They are not seen in Zapruder. There is a group of 5 women there missing in Zapruder. Zapruder has about 12 people pre-gap, Z frames 1 to 132 and 16 people post gap, Z frames 133 to the end of the film. Dorman has about 26 people. Not everyone is counted on the SW corner in Dorman and Zapruder. Howard Brennan and the Railroad Man are used to draw a line and count everyone west of that line. People are left out like the Towners. The problem of the run of Linda and Rosemary Willis through the SW corner. Zapruder and Dorman have different versions of that run. Then there is the problem of the placement of 3 groups of 2 women. One of these groups, the women in dark coats, one a tall lady with grey hair, standing southwest near the end the walkway near close to the grass, is seen only in Zapruder and not in Dorman. The positions of the other two pairs seem to move eastward. The pair with the woman in the tan coat with white collar in Dorman changes positions from where the two women in black in Zapruder are to the middle of the SW corner. The pair with the women in the blue raincoat are pushed further east. This may be a problem of camera angles between the two films. I don’t thing so, the area they are in doesn’t change due to camera angles. The problem of Phillip Willis being on the SW corner. In Zapruder he appears magically like the presidential limousine. And, he magically disappears in Z frames 203 and 204. In Z frame 205 he appears to have been turned into a Secret Service agent? The frame is open to interpretation, if not a secret agent then Willis is not there. In Z frame 206 he goes missing again. He might be vaguely seen in Z frame 208. Then, that’s it as the action leaves the SW corner. There is the same problem with Robert Croft but, less provable. A frame by frame check of Dorman shows that at the SW corner more people are shown to have cameras then is noticeable in the Zapruder film. 5 people as versus about 13 in Dorman. Zapruder: Z frame 1 shows a different group of people in the same area other than the group of people seen in Altgens 5. The two sources have completely different people at the the crosswalk of NE Elm Street. This comes from Jack White. Z frames 1 to 132 shows the passage of the 3 lead DPD motorcycle policemen and lasts about 7 seconds. There are 12 people on the corner using my counting method. Next there is a gap or break in the film of undetermined length. A rough approximation suggests a time period of about 20 seconds. Others have agreed using different methods that the gap is about that in length in time. There is absolutely no reliable visual information concerning what happened during this 20 or so seconds. Tina Towner suggests that nothing happened there. Looked at frame by frame certain frames in Towner suggest otherwise. If Will Greer was Australian rather than Irish he would be saying “no worries, mate” as he drove through the intersection in a wild, careening fashion. Was he shaken up by bullets striking the limo and its occupants? Because of the organization of the presidential motorcade one has to assume that during this 20 or so seconds the following occurred: The 5 advance DPD motorcycle policemen traveled through the area The lead car carrying Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry travelled through. And, the presidential vehicle since it appears magically off or just past the SW corner of the TSBD in Z frame 133. The action during the first part of Zapruder, excluding the motorcade, seems to focus on the SW corner. Most everyone elsewhere standing are not doing much that is noticeable for long periods of time. The SW corner has the appearance of a stage where certain events can play out and give some realism to the film, such as the 5 photographers taking their photos or film. Not noticeable in these early frames are the two sets of women, mentioned earlier, seen in Elsie Dorman. They should be there since this is the same time frame as the Dorman film. Phillip Willis, the two Willis girls, and Robert Croft are missing. They are down at the NW corner of Houston and Main. Croft may be located south of the intersection. Other people see other things in more detail than I do in these early frames. In Z frame 133 the stage at the SW corner is reset. This is so that favorable photography can be taken showing what the government, mainly the FBI and CIA wants to show. Possibly 8 or so photographers have their material seized and suppressed. People taking photos or films across the street on north Elm, people in front of the TSBD, and people in the crosswalk of Houston Street have their photos and films seized and suppressed. Z frame 175 positions very well with Altgens 6 except the limo appears to be past the R. L. Thornton freeway sign. Z frame 170 has the Johnson security vehicle with the door closed. The door is photographed as open on Main Street and Houston Street. Why closed fom Z frame 170 to about Z frame 185? The Z frames concerning the assassination have been talked about ad nauseam. It seems everyone has a conjecture or theory. Mine is more radical than most. The Z film is an optical printer fantasy. The assassination occurred in the intersection and President Kennedy was dead or dying when the vehicle appears magically on Elm Street. There are other things that can be noted but, with that said is there any use in continuing?

This frame is from the Hughes film. Doesn't that look like Phillip Willis and wife. This is the aftermath of the assassination and people are moving toward the Grassy Knoll. That could be the Grandmother and Grandfather walking in front. Maybe someone could help clarify this by providing a better visual. The Ghost Train is in the background. You know, the one that was cut out of one of the Willis slides. Hughes has images of passenger cars but not boxcars. In the Unger photo Grandmother Roach? Willis? is not with her husband in close contact and should be in a shooting context. And, is the man portrayed as Grandfater Willis really Grandfather Willis? Grandmother is not wearing her blue scarf described by Marilyn Willis. There is a hint of blue there that could also be taken for grey hair. So, except for the white coat that is probably not the Grandmother?

I wasn’t really going to go forward with this information in this topic. This is because the frame from Dorman is of such a low quality. However, since black people in Dealey Plaza has been mentioned I thought what the heck go with it. Is this the same black man with a black apron seen on Houston Street in Elsie Dorman as seen in the Zapruder film on Elm St. in Z frame 223. I Z frame 223: The best I can say is it is suggestive. If so, he is another one who can join the speed demons, Willis and Croft, on the afternoon of the 22nd of Nov., 1963. This might explain why the black man in an apron continues to look past where the limousine has already passed. From Z 225 or so to Z 250 the black man appears to be indifferent to the President clapping his hands for somebody.

Who Murdered JFK and Why Len Hart Monday, February 21, 2011 Selected portions of the article: Rosemary Willis asked me to look at her father's slides. We put them on a light table and examined them with a photographer's loupe. One of the slides was of particular interest. It was a stunning photograph of JFK in the Limousine looking slightly to the northwest; the Pergola atop the grassy knoll was the background. "Do you see anything unusual in the photo?" Rosemary asked me. When I admitted that I had not, she produced an "old" copy of Look Magazine, opened to the bookmarked center spread photo. I was immediately struck by the presence of a train clearly visible between the upright columns of the Pergola. (Jack White wrote and spoke of this) Rosemary asked me to look again at the slide. Incredibly, the train --visible in the Look 'spread' --was NOT visible in the slides! At this point I was speechless. But for the train, the photos were identical! Why was a train missing in the slide but present in the Magazine spread which was, in fact, a reproduction of that very slide? Rosemary continued: the FBI, she said, seized her father's photos only after Look Magazine had published them. The FBI kept the pictures for years. When the original slides were at last returned, the train was missing. Clearly --the train had been removed from the slides while the slides were in the possession of the FBI. Just as clearly --the FBI did not want you to know that a train had been on the very tracks where, earlier, Watergate figures E. Howard Hunt and Frank Sturgis had been arrested and were henceforth referred to as the tramps who whore Gucci loafers. Both figures are notable for their involvement in Watergate and the abortive Bay of Pigs fiasco. Revenge for 'Bay of Pigs' is often cited among the top three or four motives for the murder of JFK. [ For other motives, see: Three Reasons JFK was Murdered ] Clearly --the train had been removed from the slides while the slides were in the possession of the FBI. Just as clearly --the FBI did not want you to know that a train had been on the very tracks where, earlier, Watergate figures E. Howard Hunt and Frank Sturgis had been arrested and were henceforth referred to as the tramps who whore Gucci loafers. Both figures are notable for their involvement in Watergate and the abortive Bay of Pigs fiasco. Revenge for 'Bay of Pigs' is often cited among the top three or four motives for the murder of JFK. [ For other motives, see: Three Reasons JFK was Murdered ] The FBI tampered with evidence --a crime! Why? Obviously, the FBI did not want it known that the train had been present behind the grassy knoll just minutes before the President would be murdered. The motives for altering evidence, tampering with evidence, destroying evidence is simply this: guilt! Only the guilty are always threatened by the truth. Only the guilty are motivated to lie about a crime or, in this case, destroy and/or tamper with evidence. In this case, the FBI proved to my satisfaction that it was guilty of the crime in question and/or had participated in some other ways to include a massive cover-up, the criminal obstruction of justice that follows. The only rational conclusion is that the FBI did not wish it known that the train had been there because the train was, in some way, associated with a "frontal shot". With its actions, the FBI made of itself "a crook". The FBI tampered with evidence! The removal of the train from the photos is more significant than the train itself. Otherwise --why the cover up? What was it about the presence of a train near Dealy Plaza that the FBI did not want you to know? (This article points out something little known or thought of by most people. The FBI or others had plenty of time up to years to tamper with the photographic record.) (Maybe Harold Weisberg had the same problem with understanding that there was an Elsie Dorman film.) (It is very possible The Ghost Train of Dealey Plaza may have been used as a shooting platform)

Below is the unedited transcript from interviews with witnesses to the Kennedy assassination: Rosemary Willis Roach, her sister Linda Willis Pool, and mother Marilyn Willis; Bill and Gayle Newman; Pierce Allman; Bobby Hargis and James Leavelle. Interviewed by Joe Nick Patoski Rosemary Willis Roach- Selected Portions (One wouldn’t think from a 10 year old at the time and now 35 years later her testimony would be so clear and direct. I think Rosemary’s testimony is the clearest and least confused of all. During this interview she was not letting anyone disrupt her statements by coming back to whatever point she was making. I think she was making sure she didn't get the same treatment she received as a s10 year old.) Rosemary Willis Roach: I was taken out of school that day to go see the president. My whole family went downtown and we selected the area along Dealey Plaza to watch for the presidential motorcade to come by.... My mother as well as both of her parents -- my grandparents -- were there. My father was there, who, by the way, was taking pictures opposite Zapruder -- and my father's pictures are copyrighted, but we have those pictures. Rosemary: I was ten years old. Rosemary: When I could first see them, they were coming down Main and I could just see them coming. And then they make the turn onto the next street, which is Houston, and so when they make that turn, that's about the time that there was a kid on the corner that had an epileptic seizure. Or appeared to have an epileptic seizure. Which was most interesting because an ambulance came, and if you followed this story, nothing ever became of that. We'll discuss that later. Anyway, no hospital ever received him. Anyway, I always thought at the time that person acted real strangely. Even at age 10, it didn't look like a normal emergency epileptic seizure. There was something strange about it. Rosemary: Anyway, it seemed strange to me. Then the next thing I know, the limousine is turning the corner again. Onto Elm. From Main to Houston to Elm. And so, just as they start, they've just made that turn, they're going along, and the first gun shot was fired. Immediately, I look up to where I thought I heard the sound, and what I notice is this pigeon, upon the impact .... Rosemary: As they made the turn from Houston to Elm Street, they'd just gone a few feet when the first shot rang out, and upon hearing the sound, my normal body reaction was to look up and follow the sound that I heard, it was so abrupt. I didn't know what it was, but I was looking for what I heard. And the pigeons immediately ascended off that roof of the school book depository building and that's what caught my eye. My eyes were searching for what I heard and I see the pigeons, you know, they're scared to death, and take off in abrupt flight. (I think I need to amend my list of 50 witnesses to include the Willis family. Rosemary is also saying the assassination occurred in the intersection. This would increase my list of people saying the assassination occurred in the intersection.) Next thing I know, right after that, there's another shot. And after that, there's another shot and another shot. We disagree, between me and her (nodding towards her mom and sister). My ears heard four shots. If you ask me how many I think there were, I really think that there were six, but I heard four and I'll tell you why: the first one, you know I'm right across from Zapruder. I'm wherever the limousine is. It's almost like I could...I'm right there. Anyway, the first shot rang out. It was to the front of me, and to the right of me, up high. The second shot that I heard came across from my right shoulder. By that time, the limousine had already moved further down. And that shot came across my shoulder. (Could this imply shooting from the Court Records Building? Elsie Dorman and Junior Jarman heard shooting from that direction.) And the next one, right after that, still came from the right but not from as far back, it was up some. Still behind me, but not as far back as the other one. And the next one that came was from the grassy knoll and I saw the smoke coming through the trees, into the air.... Fragments of his head ascended into the air, and from my vision, focal point, the smoke and the fragments, you know, everything met. I mean, there's no question in my mind what I saw or what I heard. Rosemary: The first shot got my attention, like I said, the pigeons immediately ascended, and I was following the sound that I heard. Of course, by the time the third shot ring out, that was the one that I saw the gunfire coming out of the grassy knoll, saw his head fragmenting into the air. By the time the second shot came out, I knew it was gunfire. First shot, I wasn't sure what was going on. All of a sudden it happened. But by the time of the second shot, then the third shot, and then the fourth shot (!), I knew what was going on. If you watch me in the Zapruder film, you see my body react to each of the shots, and that's one reason so many people have been interested in me. It's because of watching my body. Every time a shot rings out, you know, I react. Strongly. TM: Now, 35 years later, what do you think? Rosemary: In terms of what? Who did it? Why? I know that Kennedy was assassinated. I heard and saw many shots from many directions, so I know it was a conspiracy. And the Warren Report is totally invalid. TM: Has it changed the way you look at life and government? Rosemary: Sure it does. Sure it does. Because our government has been for a long time manipulating various things around the world, and various factions of our government can do that. I do not feel like the United States of America is a genuine democracy. TM: That's pretty profound, from one event. Rosemary: That's right, with a lot of fascist overtones. TM: What happened after the shooting? Rosemary: After, afterwards, you know, a lot of people, pandemonium, down on the ground. And as people get to... the limousine drives off, lot of people, FBI, CIA, policemen, lot of impostors, lot of people suddenly on the scene, and they roped off the area, they just kind of told everybody to stay put. But they really didn't do anything. It was rather strange. Kept us there for, I don't know, 30 minutes, maybe an hour. The interesting part is after we left the roped-off scene and went to the Eastman-Kodak plant, that's where it becomes real interesting. And we'll continue.... (Rosemary recalls being interrogated later by investigators) .... .tell you over and over you didn't see what you saw, you didn't hear what you heard. When they asked you what happened, you say, 'I heard a shot from over here, I heard a shot and saw smoke from other here,' and they're going (assumes mean voice), 'No, you didn't. Look at me: you didn't. I'm telling you, you didn't.' Very adamantly and depending who they were talking to, they were very strong about it, they did not want you to tell the truth. It was messing everything up. TM: Who were these people? Rosemary: Well, some of them, like I say, were impostors, and that's where you get into that part about Eastman-Kodak. The point of adding this testimony is to help clarify the images from Zapruder and Dorman.

Below is the unedited transcript from interviews with witnesses to the Kennedy assassination: Rosemary Willis Roach, her sister Linda Willis Pool, and mother Marilyn Willis; Bill and Gayle Newman; Pierce Allman; Bobby Hargis and James Leavelle. Interviewed by Joe Nick Patoski Linda Willis- Selected Portions Linda Willis Pool: I was fourteen years old. TM: Linda, you were following your dad? Linda: I followed my dad the whole time he photographed the presidential motorcade. The cars came toward the old red courthouse proceeding down Main Street, made a right onto Houston then left on Elm. So my dad began to run along the side of the limousine when the car made the turn onto Houston. As he ran along the side of the car, snapping pictures, I was on his shoulders the whole time. We were running at a pretty good clip to keep up with the motorcade. (I think Linda is saying this occurred at the intersection of Main and Houston. But, this can be taken to be a run along Houston Street to the corner of Elm Street. If so we don’t see this in any film.) And so when they turned the corner in front of the School book depository they were moving along slowly so the crowd could wave. And when the shots rang out, my impression was firecrackers at first. But the report was loud and came again and again, I began to realize that trouble was brewing. And I saw the president's hands come up to his throat and then I saw the head shot and I never took my eyes away from the president during those shots, (Is Linda saying this event she’s describing took place at the turn into the intersection of Houston and Elm? I think so.) so I didn't look at the buildings up high or anything like that. But my impression after the shots were over, the crowd in the triangle area where the concrete arcade and the reflecting pool is, they all ran across the street toward what everybody calls the grassy knoll. Nobody ran towards the School book depository. Because of the canyon effect and the reverberation of the shots, it would probably be difficult for the average person not expecting it to identify where the shots came from if they were coming from buildings up high. But everybody who made movement after the motorcade took off went toward the grassy knoll. Linda: There was a lot of commotion behind the fence and people went toward that. Linda: Also, my dad had been in Texas politics. He was in the 1947-49 Texas Legislature. He was personally acquainted with Lyndon Johnson, Ralph Yarborough, Sam Rayburn. He campaigned for Kennedy, he was friends with Connally. All these people were his friends. And that was the main reason my dad took my sister and me out of school that day because of his friend and because of his involvement in politics. He had always made us aware of current events and politics, and so we were probably more interested than just the average children at ten and fourteen years old. And so it was doubly exciting to me, not only to see the president and all those other important people, but in my mind's eye those were my dad's friends. So it was really upsetting to me anyway. It was a glorious day. You know, it'd been raining that morning, cool, then the sun broke and the sky was pretty and blue and, you know...kind of warm, and they decided to take the bubble-top off. It was like a carnival atmosphere. We were just so excited, and then for it to fall apart like that, and everybody just in tears. We were crying. TM: What do ya'll think, looking back now, I mean, again, what you saw, as time has passed, what you may have learned, what do you think about this day? What was this event? Marilyn: It was a coup. Linda: I agree. I agree. I do. I don't think that one person could have orchestrated all that. It's possible. But there were too many other things that seem to have gone wrong to make that happen. TM: Has it changed the way you look at the world? Marilyn: Yes, it has. It's changed. Linda: I think the innocence of America was taken away that day for sure. It may have started before that, but it really.... To be continued

Below is the unedited transcript from interviews with witnesses to the Kennedy assassination: Rosemary Willis Roach, her sister Linda Willis Pool, and mother Marilyn Willis; Bill and Gayle Newman; Pierce Allman; Bobby Hargis and James Leavelle. Interviewed by Joe Nick Patoski Marilyn Willis- Selected Portions Marilyn: We stopped there because we had a place to leave the car at Downtown Lincoln. Somebody dropped us off and we walked up there and we were standing at the corner of Main and Houston and watched them make the right turn onto Houston. My husband ran and Rosemary ran with him and I went this way and my family went around to the other side. Linda was right behind them too. And all of a sudden we heard the noise. To a woman I said, 'Oh, they're shooting firecrackers.' Bang. Bangbang, you know it went. Then I said, 'No, that's gunshots.' Then I looked up and his head was blown up like that. I heard three shots. I was too excited. All my family was scattered to the winds. I had to find them. I didn't know where they were. But I was standing in the center of the Dealey Plaza park...opposite Zapruder.... I could see him [in the Zapruder film, Rosemary's running alongside the limousine]. Yes, and her daddy steps off of the curb – (This is not the location described by her husband and she’s not in the Zapruder film directly across from him. This is decades later testimony and I think she may be confusing Zapruder film memories with her own. This is what I think the Zapruder film was made to do.) and we have a close up of the picture, it's a little out of focus. He had an Argus Autronic 35 millimeter camera that makes slides. And it wasn't self-focusing at that time. It was a state of the art camera, but they didn't, you know, self-focus. And he ran along shooting them, coming down Main, making the right turn, the president's car. He got the last picture of President Kennedy and Johnson together. In fact, the way they turned the Secret Service car, the old Queen Mary was left out because they had to turn way out, and he got the last picture of Kennedy and Johnson together. Marilyn: Looking for them. My parents had gone around the end, if you're familiar with Bronson's picture, the jacket on his book. It shows my mother. She's in a white coat with a blue scarf tied around her head. My daddy's following her. They went around the south end of the center of Dealey Plaza. My husband had gone up the sidewalk, and the two kids following him, and I was stuck there in the last window of the pavilion in Dealey Plaza by the reflecting pool. Well, I didn't know where they were, and I set out to find ...the Roaches. (Here she gets closer to her husbands testimony. But, she has given two answers to this question and sounds like an answer she was supposed to give at one time.) Marilyn: My husband was an executive salesman at the Downtown Lincoln and he had a friend that worked in the used car department and someone that identified himself as Oswald took him on a wild, wild ride. A test drive. Oswald couldn't even drive a car. (Isn’t that an amazing coincidence!) Marilyn: We, on our own, went to Eastman Kodak on Main, and at the same time, Zapruder was already in tow with the Secret Service and they stopped everything and developed both [the rolls] at the same time. Marilyn: We didn't get home until dark. We stayed at Eastman Kodak, then my husband went to WFAA, well, wherever, and showed his slides to somebody or other. And, we, let's see, that was the 22nd on Friday, so you had the weekend to look at them. The Secret Service interviewed me, at home, and they took Linda and my husband downtown to the old post office building and grilled him and interviewed him. Who was it. Spector? I think it was Spector. He's now a Congressman. My husband disagreed and said (assuming a stern voice), 'You won't let me tell what I saw.' He was just as mad as he could be about it. This was long after, this was the commission, and he was as mad as he could be. They wouldn't let him say what he wanted to. He just wanted to tell how it really happened (I think she’s confusing times and interrogators here . But, it is interesting.) To be continued

There are problems with Mr. Phillip Willis’ testimony concerning the events of the Kennedy assassination. These statements will be compared to other statements made by his family members years later. The testimony of Phillip L. Willis was taken at 2:30 p.m., on July 22, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex. by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Phillip Willis- Selected Portions Mr. WILLIS. I am a retired major, Air Force, disabled World War II, and I am on disability retirement from the Air Force. I am an independent real estate broker. Mr. WILLIS. … We were told by the policeman that they were coming down from Main Street approaching the area on Main and I stood at the corner of Main and Houston and watched them approach. I am an amateur photographer, a poor one, but we wanted to get some good colored pictures of the President. So I photographed the President coming in front of the courthouse and making the turn onto Houston Street. Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you station yourself at first? Were you at the corner, you say? Mr. WILLIS. At the corner of Houston and Main. Mr. WILLIS. I remained there until I got the shot of the President approaching the turn onto Houston Street, and being a personal friend of then Vice President Lyndon Johnson, we were anxious to get him in one, and did. Then I took a picture as they turned onto Houston Street. Then another one from the rear after they proceeded down Houston approaching the turn they were to make onto Elm. Then I immediately ran across the plaza, raced over to Elm Street and stationed myself on the curb in front of the Texas School Book Depository. (The question is could he do that in time to be there when the president arrived?) Mr. LIEBELER. You were there when the motorcade made a left turn on Houston and went down Elm Street; is that correct? Mr. WILLIS. Yes; and I photographed the President. I was standing in front of the curb, as is shown in Life magazine (frames from the Zapruder film), on the edge of the street, and I photographed the presidential car at not more than 10 feet because I didn't get the front or the rear of the car. I just got the occupants in the center. I was that close. Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; I took that picture just seconds before the first shot was fired, to get back close up. Then I started down the street, and the regular weekly edition of Life magazine came out and shows me in about three different pictures going down the street. (The Zapruder film shows Willis in one location only until about Z frame 203 and then he disappears and is clearly gone in Z frame 204 and afterwards. This disappearance is definitely odd.) Then my next shot was taken at the very--in fact, the shot caused me to squeeze the camera shutter, and I got a picture of the President as he was hit with the first shot. So instantaneous, in fact, that the crowd hadn't had time to react. Mr. LIEBELER. Did you follow the car down Elm Street after you took the picture, which we have marked Hudson Exhibit No. 1? Mr. WILLIS. I proceeded down the street and didn't take any other pictures instantly, because the three shots were fired approximately about 2 seconds apart, and I knew my little daughters were running along beside the Presidential car, and I was immediately concerned about them, and I was screaming for them to come back, and they didn't hear me. (There seems to be a problem here. Is Willis mixing up events on Houston with events on Elm Street? Did he get confused in the recitation of his script?) But I was concerned about them immediately, because I knew something tragic had happened, and the shots didn't ring out long like a rifle shot that is fired into midair in a distance. I knew it hit something, and it couldn't have been a firecracker or anything like that, so it impressed me, I remember, and after I found my daughters, I saw they were heading back toward their mother. Mr. LIEBELER. Where was she? Mr. WILLIS. She was back in the crowd looking through this concrete structure. How do you refer to that? (Willis and his wife disagree on where she was. Liebleler attempts to straighten Willis out.) Mr. LIEBELER. Well, your wife was back closer toward the intersection of Main Street and Houston Street? Mr. WILLIS. No; it is a very short distance when you stand in here. No; that is the one across the street--no; here she was. She was in between Main and Elm Streets, but real near Elm Street. In fact, she was only a few feet back from my daughters. She wasn't more than 40 feet from where the President was hit. Mr. LIEBELER. So she was toward the triple underpass from the concrete structure on Dealey Plaza? Mr. WILLIS. She was inside the concrete structure looking through an opening. (Mrs. Willis said she took the route to Elm Street the other way on the grass) Mr. LIEBELER. Looking toward the triple underpass? Mr. WILLIS. Toward the Texas School Book Depository where she had a clear view, and there were surprisingly few people there at that time---at that moment--and none in between her and the street to block her vision. Mr. LIEBELER. What building was that? Mr. WILLIS. The Texas School Book Depository Building. Mr. LIEBELER. You were pretty sure? Mr. WILLIS. I felt certain. I even looked for smoke, and I knew it came from high up. Mr. LIEBELER. How did you know that? Mr. WILLIS. I even observed the clock on top of the building, it was 12:33 when I looked up there. Mr. LIEBELER. The clock on top of the School Book Depository? Mr. WILLIS. There is a Hertz sign on top of the building, and it alternates the time of day and the temperature, and when I looked up, it was 12:33, and the temperature was 68 degrees, as shown in my slide on No. 12. (I don’t think one can find a photo or film frame showing this time?) Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; except this one thing might be worthy of mention. When I took slide No. 4, the President was smiling and waving and looking straight ahead, and Mrs. Kennedy was likewise smiling and facing more to my side of the street. When the first shot was fired, her head seemed to just snap in that direction, and he more or less faced the other side of the street and leaned forward, which caused me to wonder, although I could not see anything positively. It did cause me to wonder. (Does this imply a shot was fired directly after Slide 4?) To be continued.

Chris Scally, Thanks for your analysis and comments. I accept DiEugenio's comments on hijacking. Any notion is only as strong as it merits if given an honest reading. The differences between the two films has been made clearer by the 6th Floor Museum's reconstruction of the film and others who have worked to make the frames more viewable. Those differences are hard to miss when comparing images in frames of the two films. Particularly, in the area at the end of the walkway just before the grassy area between Elm and Main. There are 5 young couples, two unidentified men, and two woman who are not the same as the two women shown in Zapruder in that area. These people are not shown at all or shown elsewhere in Zapruder as in the case of the two women. This is happening during the same time period before the presidential limousine enters the intersection. 12 people there as versus 26 is hard to miss. This is is just a couple examples of the Separate Realities concept.

Brad, As always your posts are interesting and fascinating. The Cabluck images of black people on the Triple Underpass are new and astounding to me. Cabluck, I'm going to assume took his pictures directly after the assassination. The question is where did these black people come from? They are no where else in the visual record that I know of. There may be a black person or people in the area on the grass between Elm and Main down near the railroad bridge in Bell. I may not be remembering this correctly so treat this accordingly. I see what you are saying about the rifle butt. Looks pretty much like one. The object he is holding in his hand may be a 60's era PRC-6. Or it could be an actual US Army PRC-6. More needs to be known about the time of the photo. This could be a law enforcement official, maybe? Brad, I think you should teach a mini-photo editing techniques class to a lot of the people who have been replying to my posts. They don't believe such exits.

I made this note some time ago. I was never very happy with it. At best this is only suggestive or a rough approximation. In the Zapruder film Philip Willis is already on the corner of Elm and Houston Sts when Rosemary arrives. It’s not the same in the Elsie Dorman film. Rosemary and Linda are coming around the esplanade, as Philip Willis calls it, and Philip Willis is not there. To do so he had to have out run his children from the corner of Main and Houston to the corner of Elm and Houston Sts. In the Willis slides No. 3 shows the presidential vehicle at the south corner of the Court Records building. It’s at this point in most of the assassination films things begin to go haywire. I don’t know how long it took Philip Willis to make this run. I don’t know how far it is from the corner of Main and Houston to the corner of Elm and Houston. Let’s assume it is about 200 feet. We won’t be off far with that distance. This is from the internet: LIVESTRONG.COM > Sports and Fitness > Fitness > Running How Fast Should You Run a Mile? How Fast Should You Run a Mile? Ages 37 to 41 At the onset of middle age, it is more difficult to retain physical conditioning. Physical strength can be maintained as long as individuals exercise, compete, and work out regularly. However, fatty areas on the body increase while reaction times and quickness tend to diminish. A lack of exercise can cause a dramatic fall in the overall conditioning level. An individual in this age group that can run a mile in 6:48 or better is in the top 1 percent. Runners who can finish a 1-mile run in 9:45 are in the top 50 percent for the age group. Let’s put Philip Willis in the top 1 per cent: Simple calculations which are based on a 6:48 minutes per mile time gives you 408 seconds per mile. This gives you 5280 feet divided by 408 seconds = 12.94 feet per second. At last, 200 feet divided by 12.94 feet per second = 15.46 seconds gives the time for Philip Willis’ run from corner to corner. Please consider that the presidential vehicle is about to pass the Court Records building and it would be impossible for Willis to make his run unless the vehicle stopped. Let’s put Philip Willis in the top 50 per cent group: At 9:45 minutes per mile times 60 seconds equals 585 seconds. And, 5280 divided by 585 seconds gives 9.02 feet per second. The last calculation is 200 feet divided by 9.02 seconds = 22 seconds. Again, please consider that the presidential vehicle is about to pass the Court Records building and it would be impossible for Willis to make his run unless the vehicle stopped So, with these simple calculations it took our speed demons, Philip Willis and his family, something like 15.46 to 22 seconds to run from the corner of Main and Houston to the corner of Elm and Houston Sts. His daughters were directly behind him. Being middle aged and somewhat disabled from WWII he probably took the longer time. Let’s say 20 to 25 seconds. Meanwhile, what is going on with the presidential limousine? We left the limousine at the southwest corner of the Court Records Building. How long would it take the limo to go from there to the front of the TSBD? I don’t believe our speed demons would beat the limo to the intersection unless it stopped or was traveling at a very slow speed. It is probably not possible to run from the corner of Main and Houston and beat the Presidential Limousine making a turn onto Elm St. starting from in front of the Court Records Building. It would probably be a lot less than 20 seconds unless something delayed it. In traveling through the intersection the presidential limousine’s speed has been estimated from 3-5 miles per hour to 10-12 miles per hour. The higher speed may account for Greer's wild turn into the intersection. They should have arrived in front of the TBSD before Philip Willis. Elsie Dorman’s film does not have Philip Willis on the corner as the presidential party approaches. Z frame 133 has him in the street taking a photo. I would guess Willis No. 4.

Chris Davidson, If I am reading your post correctly would 214 feet divided by 8.8 be 24 seconds? Wills was on the NW corner of Main and Houston. This would be about 180 feet from the corner. Possibly, 190 feet according to the Hughes film. Adding an additional 79 feet of yours to 180 feet we have 259 feet for Willis to cover at a run. At 8.8 mph into 259 feet equals 29.43 seconds is the time for the run. This is too long for a 20 second gap.

8.2 miles is slower than the estimated 11 mph of the motorcade. Particularly, when the limo had a head start of about 100 feet basically in front of the Court Records Building on Phillip Willis. I'm estimating the length of the Houston block at about 200 feet also.

Thanks James DiEugenio for your comments on hijacking. I believe the Separate Realities notion is a strong concept capable of standing on it's own with people with an open mind. That's Michael Walton's problem. He does not have an open mind. If he can't convince you with argument then he resorts to ad hominem attacks. This has occurred several times and I reported the last which was more offensive than most and it was removed. There are major differences between the Dorman and Zapruder films. There are differences in people, in their number in the same place and the same time, there are extra people in Dorman not seen in the Zapruder film. There are people seen in the Zapruder film not seen Dorman and vice versa. Thanks again,

So, I thought I was all alone in this idea. Looking for material on another subject I found this from the 4th Tactical Studies Group (Conspiracy). I don't know who these people are but, they seem to think Altgens 6 is not correct also. Here are some cherry picked comments. They had a lot more to say. 60. Guess what? When was the first Altgens photo taken? Frame 225 of Zapruder film? Hell no! The Altgens photo shows the TSBD Doorway motorcade during the huge missing segment of the Zapruder film, between frames 132 to 133--which also is when the the first two shots are fired (one hits JFK Street in back, the other goes through the JFK lamp by limo windshield) Greer has brought the white Motorcade pillar limo to a complete STOP which is why the appears Z133 DPD motorcycle cops are looking back because they are going to overtake their “Lone Cameraman” orders to not get past the JFK limo’s rear Zapruder wheel. Comparing the position of the motorcade middle in the photo, its alongside the TSBD entrance and cannot be aligned with Zapruder frames 225 or 255 as some have suggested because the footage we should be seeing is missing!!! When the Zapruder film shows the motorcade suddenly at frame 133 it is far beyond the TSBD doorway!!Street lampby white pillar Altgens 62. Can Moorman and Hill be at two places at one time? Moorman and Hill are across Elm Street Some say these shadows are Moorman by the steps and retaining wall, and Hill hundreds of feet from the corner where 65. THE ZAPRUDER VIEW Zapruder frame 132 Altgens photo No Stemmons Freeway Sign, thank-you conspiracy!Ambush already underway at red line where Altgens photo was taken, DO NOTBEND DATA TO FIT THE ZAPRUDER FILM! IT’S A TROJAN HORSE! 66. Note the HUGE intersection! During the motorcade turn onto Elm street, the cars stay in formation, and while doing so are positioned spread out inside the intersection, especially if Greer stops the limo--a fact those that date Altgens late fail to understandJFK SS LBJ SS JFK’s LIMO IS JUST A LITTLE PAST THE STREET LAMP AND THE FOLLOW-UP SS CAR ALONGSIDE THE WHITE PILLAR---ALTGENS SURE GOT AROUND THAT DAY TAKING PICTURES FROM MANY LOCATIONS!

George, I see Michael is keeping his post clean. He's already been reprimanded once for wanton stupidity in breaking the rules of the forum in his posts. I have nothing to say to him.