David Boylan

Good place to put this.. Hon. W.M. Rainach Summerfield, Louisiana Dear Senator Rainach: Reference is made to our recent telephone conversation regarding the tentative plans for the formation of a State Sovereignty Commission. At that time, I told you of my interest in the position of Chief Investigator. I have for many years, supervised investigators in conducting investigations of matter which reason dictates will be similar to those the Commission will handle. I am qualified by practical experience, covering a period of more than 20 years, to train the Commissions investigators. I have served as a member of the teaching staff of (4) of the nations leading educational institutions. I have one of the largest libraries of its kind which is available to the Commission for research. I also have ample office space, which is available for Commission use, assuming that the Commission will need an office in New Orleans and that you will have your own stenographers, clerks, telephone service, etc. When you are in New Orleans or Baton Rouge, an appointment with you to discuss this matter further, would be appreciated. Sincerely yours, Guy Banister, President

I was surprised this posting did not have much impact with members. However, I sent the information out to selected researchers who did see the significance of this information. Several will be using this information in books they are working on. Unfortunately, it came too late for Doug Horne to include it in his book (due out next month). The information comes from James Wagenvoord, the editorial business manager and assistant to Life Magazines Executive Editor. He has supplied me with a lot more information about this story but I am not at liberty to publish it at the moment. I found this posting fascinating and shared it with a non-member of the Forum who at one time was a key executive at LIFE. Douglas, Did he comment? Dave

I believe the McGehee was Frank McGehee. http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist...ndignation.html " Perlstein's op-ed had me rushing to Google "National Indignation Convention" to learn more about this delightfully named wingnut association. That led me to a Dec. 8, 1961, article from Time magazine titled, "The Ultras," a fascinating and far-ranging survey of the many groups of that time who regarded Barry Goldwater as a communist sympathizer. It includes this summary of the NIC: THE NATIONAL INDIGNATION CONVENTION, one of the fastest growing of the new groups, was started recently by Dallas Garage Owner Frank McGehee, 32, to protest the training of Yugoslav pilots in the U.S. It has since spread across the country through supporting committees. With a keen eye peeled for "modern traitors" in government, the movement holds evangelistic-like meetings at which members have heard the Eisenhower and Kennedy Administrations condemned as "treasonous." along with suggestions for lynching Earl Warren. The group's agenda also included the defense of segregation and opposition to the fluoridation of water. Really. These were people who would have cheered Gen. Jack D. Ripper's vehement defense of "our precious bodily fluids" in Dr. Strangelove. The woman who assaulted Adlai Stevenson with the picket sign was affiliated with the National Indignation Convention. Photojournalist Wes Wise, who captured that incident on film, reveals another revealing detail in Robert Huffaker's book, When the News Went Live: Dallas 1963. After the woman's assault on Stevenson was condemned nationally, the crazy lady offered what she considered an excuse for her behavior. "I was pushed from behind by a Negro," she said. There were, of course, no black people in the vicinity. Throughout Wise's account, Stevenson comes across as unflappable. I picture David Niven playing the part. When a member of the IndigNation -- Frank McGehee himself, actually -- heckled and tried to shout down his speech in Dallas, Stevenson paused and said, "Surely, my dear friend, I don't have to come here from Illinois to teach Texas manners, do I?" The crowd cheered. Stevenson may often have been, as Perlstein writes, "earnestly confused" by the irrational claims and behavior of his opponents, but his response to McGehee and to the crazy woman with the sign don't convey such confusion. He knew exactly what to make of those people: They were rude and irrational. The politeness of his rational response in both cases doesn't blunt the implication of those responses -- that these people ought to be ashamed of themselves. That's an example of what's often missing today in dealing with the IndigNation. These people are offended and outraged and so politicians and journalists respond by trying not to further offend or enrage them. As though that were possible. Indignation is their raison d'etre. They will take offense whether or not it is given. There is no point trying not to offend them. There is no point in trying not to make them angry. An appropriate response isn't to be more offended or more offensive, but it should involve going on the offense. The IndigNationalists are behaving shamefully and it is appropriate and necessary to point that out to them. It's our duty to point that out to them. The appropriate and necessary phrase when confronted by members of the IndigNation -- by the birthers, the deathers, the baggers, the immigrant-blamers and homophobes and cryptoracists and misogynists -- is simply to tell them the primary thing they need to hear: "You ought to be ashamed of yourself."

Castorr was also member of the Burma Star Association. If my memory is still working, Nestor Sanchez was also a member. http://www.burmalibrary.org/reg.burma/arch...4/msg00124.html "In a February 1995 tour arranged by B/Gen. Robert L. Castorr, to commemorate the end of the second Burma campaign, a group of 25, including American veterans and survivors of veterans, made the pilgrimage to retrace the steps of the famed Merrill's Marauders, as guests of the Myanmar government. Three weeks later, on the Big Island of Hawaii, as we sit next to a golf course on a warm, sunny day, I asked my father, retired Capt. Donald W. Delorey, to tell about the trip back in time when the tour arranged by Castorr took them to the place where, as young men, they had repelled the Japanese Army and changed the course of history. For me the trip has double importance. Not only was my father in Merrill's Marauders, my mother, Mary Jane Healy Delorey was a nurse who served with the 44th Field Hospital and the 69th General Hospital. He was also retracing the steps of their courtship as they crossed paths in India and Burma. Delorey first heard about the trip at a meeting of the Burma Star Association. As the group assembled, he was pleased to find several of his friends among the travelers."

And what does Harry dean say about his "entry" on http://jfkmurdersolved.com/images/carver6.BMP ?

The following appears in the October 31, 1963 issue of THE WANDERER, p. 6. THE WANDERER had a fairly small audience of right-wingers. The Taylor Caldwell that wrote the following letter is the well-known author and Bircher. TC is replying to Sheldon Emry's letter dated Oct 17 commenting on the extensive protection that JFK had around him on his trip to Duluth in early October. President Kennedy in Danger? Taylor Caldwell I was deeply interested in Sheldon Emrey's [sic] account [Wanderer Forum, October 17th] of Air Force men, soldiers with rifles at the ready, Highway Patrol officers, helicopters, guards, etc., being out in full force day and night when President Kennedy visited Duluth. This account is most extraordinary-- but even more alarming, and not for the reasons Mr. Emery [sic] gives: "Mr. Kennedy is now showing a visible power in the soldiers that he had not openly displayed before." Personally, and for many other reasons, I do not think Mr. Kennedy "is now showing a visible power...." Only a few months ago Mr. Kennedy mingled affably with crowds, shaking hands, moving among them, shrugging off Secret Service men and leaving them behind. Why, then, this sudden change? In the first place, the world is becoming more and more turbulent daily, even hourly. This fact appears only in small items in the newspapers; apparently the press is being cautious about the terrible situation, and this is alarming in itself. Despite that test-ban treaty it is most obvious that Mr. Kennedy is quite aware that peace is not at hand and that, on the contrary, the international situation with respect to Communism is growing increasingly ominous. I receive hundreds of letters a year from behind the Iron Curtain, from fans of mine. Lately the letters are full of disquiet, a sense of disaster near at hand. Letters from my relatives in England and Ireland express great uneasiness. It is as if free men everywhere now "feel" a monster threat, even though a few months ago they were somewhat amused, as they wrote me, at America's "attitude towards Russia." Human besngs have instincts as well as lower animals, and it is obvious, to me at least, that human instinct is stirring in fear everywhere. We all know that there is not a spot on earth which is not now in a state of suppressed chaos or open danger or marching with soldiers or war or intense uneasiness. The enemies of freedom and God are everywhere in every country of the West. It is possible that Mr. Kennedy is in personal jeopardy from them, a matter which is not being mentioned in the newpapers. Indeed, it is very probable. Presidents have been murdered before in our history, and in less dreadful times. Among our enemies there are many madmen. I receive quite a number of pro-Communist and "liberal" periodicals, and some are quite inflammatory against Mr. Kennedy. The tone of the "liberal" periodicals--some of our big monthly magazines for instance--are wrathful against our President. It seems that they had expected him to overthrow the Constitution and set-up a sort of crypto-Communist dictatorship. (They call it "progress.") He has disappointed them, and there is no canard too mean for them to print and no sneer too ugly for some of their pages. His parents, his wife, his children, his brothers and sisters, are held to ridicule in a lot of the "liberal" and pro-Communist press. This may come as a surprise to many of my Conservative brothers and sisters. As that part of our national press is influenced from Moscow it is easy to see the temper of many of them. And that temper can easly inflame madmen. The very fact that Mr. Kennedy is apparently now being so closely guarded should alarm all of us very deeply, whether or not we agree with the President on political matters. The mere though of Mr. Kennedy being assassinated should make all of us shudder for the reprecussions in America would be most terrible and disorder would result at the very least. Then there are the "agents provocateur" who would just love such an "incident." I know. I read some of their literature. It would delight them--and serve their evil purpose--if harm came to Mr. Kennedy. I have already sent a sample to the Department of Justice; it actually suggested that the President be lynched! Rather than being alarmed, perhaps we should feel relief that our President is being guarded as Mr. Emrey relates, whether we are Democrats or Republicans. I, for one, am relieved.

Going through some old email and thought this might be of interest. This was from GPH. Greetings: The entire FARC [Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionario de Cuba / Cuban Armed Forces] had been on highest alert (the equivalent of our "DEFCON-1") since before the Bill Pawley/Eddy "Bayo" Perez Op during June 1963. The recently released BA 2506 (Bay of Pigs) veterans were in hot negotiations with both Somoza [Nicaragua] & "Pepe" Figueres [Costa Rica] since the April "Orange Bowl" JFK speech. Raul Castro had contacted Mikoyan & Krushchev repeatedly, demanding more SAMs (2 & 3); more P-4 & P-6 ("Komar MTB" w/ "Styx" 65 km range surf-to-surf & anti-shipping missiles); 2 replacement missile Frigates; 2 "Yankee" class submarines, an additional squadron of MiG-21s & 4 MiG-23 or Sukhois; etc. !! Their air-defense search (ASR) radar wasn't worth a xxxx because it wasn't "tropicalized". Problems with their "J-3" (jet fuel) contamination had forced the F.A.R. to use AvGas (110-115 octane) and thereafter those jet engines had to stay on AvGas and could never again use jet fuel. [and engines hours were reduced to a Max of 500 hours] "2nd Naval Guerrilla" ["Manolo Artime's group] had already set up shop at Monkey Point, Nicaragua and Tortuguero, Costa Rica [now a national park]. CIA had told Rueven Frank (Prez NBC News) to clear with me in order to have their UK based photog Jack Nickless vetted for embedding with Artime. Havana complained during August '63 that a "Jet Fighter" had been used in an attack against the refinery at Santa Cruz del Sur. (This had been a "one-time-borrow" from the then Confederate Air Force fleet at Harlingen, TX !! [since renamed "The Commemorative Air Force"] KGB/GRU attaches had confirmed the ChiCom Intel that a full-scale U.S./OAS series of "Prep-strikes" were planned by the Pentagon just before Christmas '63. The 5 kiloton Nuke "Golem" (Scud) anti-ship- ping missiles still remained in place at the Soviet Naval Base, Banes, Oriente, Cuba !! Thanks to the Hal Hendrix, Mary Louise Wilkerson, et al. blasting out blame for JFK's death on Fidel, the F.A.R. was flying CAPs [Combat Air Patrols] beyond "24 North Lat." (inside the USAF "Ruby West/East" gunnery warning zone in the Fla. Straits; and well outside the "12 mile limit" along Cuba's south coast. While Cmdte. Rene Vallejo was oftentimes acting as traveling medic with Fidel, more often he preferr-ed to have Cmdte. Del Valle, MD. [Del Valle was my boss in the Rebel Air Force after he replaced then Cmdte. Juan Almeida during 1960]. Escalante has continued with what had appeared in "ZR/RIFLE", i.e., Tony Cuesta having fingered Herminio Diaz [killed at the time of Tony's being blinded and captured]; and mumbled other hints about Eladio "Gito" DelValle as a perp. ["Gito" was murdered the same day as Dave Ferrie, and I did the ID of Gito at the MIA Morgue for Sgt. Tony Fontana, Miami P.D.] Any number amongst a dozen Cuban VIPs [Ramiro Valdez, DGI; Manuel "Barba Roja" Piniero, Chief/CI- "Americas Directorate" (MinInt-DSE/DGI); Raul Castro Ruz, C/FARC; Pedro Miret (INRA); et al. all controlled multi-million$ necessary to "false-flag" any Op. - - with or without Fidel's OK/knowledge !! When "Che" was caught doing same as Prez of the Central Bank, Fidel got pissed and he left for Algeria shortly thereafter. Trafficante (who lived at John Martino's house on Alton Road, Miami Beach off & on) was a constant snitch for Fidel since his release from the Triscornia "nut-house" along with Loran E. "Skip" Hall. The quid pro quo was that Fidel would continue facilitating the Heroin shipments via diplomatic pouch from Argentina via Havana - Nassau - NYC. That is until the "Frog" Aug was snatched in Paraguay and flown to NYC, convicted and given Life. (the US Sup/Court ruled in a landmark case that: despite the fact that the defendant having never even visited the US, how he arrived on the courthouse steps was immater-ial. This holding was amended to exclude accused who had been tortured or kidnapped with physical injuries !!) Shortly thereafter, Trafficante closed the franchise deal for "Double UO Globe" scag in both Saigon and Phnom Penh, and the Corsicans were forced out of the "Golden Triangle' in Burma/Laos/ Thailand. Felipe Vidal Santiago got a death sentence, rather than 30 years (the usual) because Trafficante was in Martino's house when the second $15,000 was delivered, because the then present spaghetti suckers were told by Martino that the Buck$ were for a hit on Fidel, when in fact the Op was that of an agent insertion.

Tim, Hall mentioned twice (that I'm aware of) that he was going to harrass LHO. He told Dick Russell in The Man Who Knew Too Much and during his HSCA testimony. And if my memory is not failing, he was asked by Harold Weisberg when Weisberg interviewed Hall in 1968, about the last time he saw Larry Howard. He replied that he hadn't seen Howard in a long time because Howard was mad at him for not returning the letter from Ray. Hall did say he was not in Dallas on November 22. He was in Dallas 6 or 7 times previously during 1963. He was there during the end of September and came back again in October. He had picked up a trailer full of rifles in California from Clint Wheat. He, Howard and Celio Castro Alba left the rifles with oil geologist Lester Logue in Dallas then proceded on to Miami. He came back in Oct with Seymour to retrieve them. My educated guess is that he left the rifles in Dallas so that they could converted rfom semi-auto to full auto by John Thomas Masen. Oh and they had medical supplies from California. The med supplies were stored in Harry Dean's garage. I'm sure Harry could add some detail here.

Hall still confuses me. There is a lot of coincidental info that points to him as being up to his neck in the assassination but other info that points away... But how many people in the world: 1. Knew Oswald 2. Knew Martino 3. Knew Trafficante 4. Knew Fiorini aka Sturgis 5. Was in Dallas during the relevant time 6. Visited the apartments on Magellan (home of Odio) supposedly visiting Kiki Masferrer brother of Rolando 7. Was offered $50,000 to kill JFK 8. Knew Rip Robertson 9. Had in his possession a letter from Manolo Ray, head of JURE. Odio said one of the reasons for the visit was they wanted a letter translated from spanish to english for fund raising efforts. Has Willaim Seymour's HSCA interview been released yet?

I'm not sure what started Sierra on his goal to unite the various Cuban groups. I know he was visited by Burt Mold and Dr. John Lechner late Feb/early March 1963. Lechner and Mold were from California and founded Americans for a Free Cuba which seems to have been a JBS offspring. Lechner is listed in Richard Case Nagell's notebook. I believe Harry Dean knew Lechner. Harry? Sierra went to Washington DC in April 1963 where he met with Lucius Clay and Morris Liebman. In August, he and Reinaldo Pico (Watergate) went to Nicaragua to visit the exile troops. Pico was reporting to Bernard Barker (again Watergate) at the time.

[Harold Weisberg interviewing Hall. Feb 1968] Hall: …We had a hell of a deal set up – we were going to take all the, uh, we were going to take [Carlos] Prio Socarras to Guatemala and we were going to invade Cuba from Guatemala into Oriente, set up a 24 hour holding period and ask the United Nations to come in and help us and we going to do this and Prio got…Yeah, and do you know what, the dirty lousy son of a bitch wouldn’t do it. Prio Socarras flat turned me down and I had the money to do it. Weisberg: Did you have an army? Hall: You bet.

By the way Steve, this is an absolutely fascinating but under researched area.

1. Pedro Diaz Lanz 2. Carlos Prio 3. Paulino Sierra.

If my memory is still working, Enrique Molina Rivera was a guard at Trescornia around this time and befriended Hall. Molina defected and was later associated with Hall and may have been the third person on the ill fortuned flight of Rorke and Geoffrey Sullivan. Gerry Hemming believed that Molina was a Cuban G2 plant.

Larry's right but there sure was lots of leads pointing to Crisman. Here's one such lead (letter to Garrison) Mr. G; Out on the coast is a man you should talk with. Trace this information out. His name is Fred Lee Crisman, of Tacaoma, Wash. He flys to New Orleans steadily. 1964 eleven times. 1965, 17 times. 1966 32 times, 1967 24 times. He is the first man Clay called after being told he was in trouble and he is the first man that Beckham called also. He was questioned by both the CIA and FBI in 1966 but he is able to call Wash. and they laid off of him in a hurry. He is very good friends with Cubans and specially SA [sergio Arcacha] in Dallas (he goes there too) and J.R. [Jorge Rodriguez] in N.O. Mr. Crisman is a very odd man. He supplied money for certain political campaigns and in return is very much protected by both Lou. politicos and Wash. state people. He has a diplomatic passport issued on the word of a senate chairman of a committee. He seems to have no income and certainly spends a large sum of money on air travel. He is friends with F. Gremillion of your state. His private office has an unlisted number (206 Ma 7-4790) and is the meeting place for many odd characters from Cubans to political figures. Ask him to take a lie detector test and then ask him where he put the $200,000 dollars delivered to him by Beckham in August of '67. (Cuban Money) Money that is used to recruit killers to be sent to Cuba to try for Castro ask him if it is not true that he has sent 5 different men to S.A. in Dallas for final briefing. Make Crisman talk and you will have the answer to why there has been fighting among certain Cuban factions over the money in certain buried places. You know this is true because some special Cubans have dropped out of sight. (Dropped in Torpedo Junction) Crisman is also a pilot. He is the man that through Beckham and S.A. (Arcacha] paid off certain people is it not odd that he was a friend of Clay's as well as Beckham. Is it not strange that he knew Tippet! Just ask Crisman certain questions under a lie detector and see what the answers are. He is the one that advised Mark Evans [beckham's alias] to hide out in Iowa and NOT to go to N.O. to make any statement about money or anything. Have an investigator check out the amount of long distance calls that Beckham (Evans) has made to Crisman in the past year and the wild places Crisman calls. He is leaving for Europe in Jan. Keep digging Jim, you have some odd fish on the run.

Greg, Thanks for asking this!

I'm presuming this was Lawrence Howard? He fits the bill on both accounts - i.e. being both 'fat and Mexican'. Francesca, This was indeed Lawarence Howard. Hall, Howard, and Celio Castro Alba, aka Juarito, picked up a load of weapons from Clint Wheat's house before picking up the Johnson and driving to Dallas. There is a report that Wheat made a hurried visit to Dallas just before 11/22, possibly to meet up with Hall(?) The Johnson reportedly ended up at a Miami dentist's house, a Dr. Crockette. Here's Hathcock: FFIDAVIT OF RICHARD HATHCOCK My name is Richard Hathcock. I once owned and operated Allied International Detective Agency. At the time that we're interest in, my offices were at 6715 Hollywood Boulevard in the Outpost Building. About two months before the John Kennedy assassination in Dallas, two men came to see me in my office. One was Jerry Patrick Hemming, who was using the name of Jerry Patrick. The other man was Lorenzo Hall, who like to called Skip Hall, whose real name was Pacillio, which I understand is a Cuban name. These men came to see me one afternoon, stating that they had heard of me because of my many years of undercover investigation of communism on the state college campuses here when I worked for the Hearst chain, and some other activities, anti-communist activities that I had been involved in. They were here, they told me, to raise money with which to buy medicines and equipment, military hardware for a planned invasion of Cuba. That they were going to train troops in Guatemala, which they actually did later. They told me that they were dead broke, and that they were going to be here for two or three weeks, they had some other contacts that they wanted to see, raise money, but meantime they needed a hundred dollars. They wanted to borrow the hundred dollars, and what they had for security was a set of golf clubs and a rifle which was a 30 caliber Johnson, modified to sem-automatic operation, which I believe held nine rounds, and also was equipped with a 30 power Bushnell variable scope. I gave them the hundred dollars, they left the golf clubs and the rifle. For several weeks after that, I saw both men frequently, then my understanding was that Jerry Patrick returned to Miami to set things in operation down there for the planned invasion of Cuba. What they had planned essentially was to blow up some oil storage tanks on the west coast. Lorenzo Hall stayed here, and was in the private eye office very often, almost every day. He told me that both he and Patrick had originally been in Castro's army when they believed that he was really trying to free Cuba from Batista, that they had fought, fought hard, helped to put Castro in power, found out that he was a communist, had no interest in the poeple, and they turned on Castro with the result that both were imprisoned, and sentenced to be shot. Both, through manipulations and through friends managed to escape and get to this country. They showed me lots of photos, gave me documents, and I do believe what they told me about those things. Eventually, as I say, Patrick went back to Miami, and I did not see him after that. Shortly before the assa ssination, if memory serves me correctly, it was no more that ten days before the assassination, Skip Hall and a big, fat Mexican whom I'd never seen before, and whose name I don't recall at this time, but I'm sure the FBI has it, came to see me, told me that they were going to Dallas to pick up some medicines and some other material, they wanted to redeem the rifle. They gave me $50, told me to keep the golf clubs, I got a note signed by Skip Hall that he had picked up the rifle, which I later gave to Jerry Crow, of the FBI. What happened to that rifle, I don't know. Jim Garrison showed me a photo at one time, an 8X10 enlargement, which he said was made by a Dallas Morning News photographer seconds after the killing in Dallas. The photo showed a Dallas detective holding the rifle which was picked up on Dealey Plaza. The rifle looked to me exactly like the one I'd had in my office. I have combed the Warren report stem to stern. I find no mention of that rifle which was picked up on Dealey Plaza. I also found no mention of antoerh rifle found on the second floor of the book depository building. Skip Hall later told me that he had turned that rifle over a doctor friend of his in Miami, Florida. Jerry Patrick told me later that that was a damn lie, that he talked to Hall, and as far as he could find out that was a lie about where the rifle was. But he told me that he had never recovered the rifle. The rifle was in my office all those weeks, and one of the gentlemen who worked with me in the detective business, Roy Payne, who is a gun expert and a gun nut, assembeled and disassembled and reassembled that rifle on numerous occasions. And I'm sure that Mr Payne can tell you a great deal more about the rifle than I can.. The day after John Kennedy was killed in Dallas, I received a phone call from Jerry Crow, an FBI agent here in Los Angeles, who asked if I had an agent working for me who was named Pay Payne, and I said yes. Jerry wanted to know if he could come by the office and see me and Mr Payne, and we arranged for that meeting. It's my opinion that the reason he wanted to see Mr Payne was because Payne's fingerprints undoubtly were all over that rifle from his having handled it many times. It's also my opinion that, unless that particular rifle had been found or in some way involved in this whole thing, that the FBI would have no interest init. And I think that we'd better let Mr Payne pick it up from here. Declare under penalty of perjury that the above three-page affidavit true and correct to the best of my belief and knowledge. Signed - Richard Hatcock State of California County of Los Angeles -------------------------------------------------------------------- Here's Payne: AFFIDAVIT OF LEROY BARTON PAYNE My name is Leroy Barton Payne. I was a co-partner, an agent for Allied International Detectives with Dick Hathcock. Our offices at the time of this occurrence were at 6715 Hollywood Boulevard in the outpost building. I have heard and have listened to Mr Hathcock make his statement and I agree with him in every aspect of his statement, and I will, to the best of my recollection, account my experiences with Jerry Patrick and Lorenzo Pacillio, alias Skip Hall or Lorenzo Hall. I first met them when they came into the office on, in the outpost building, and in the description of these two gentlemen, Jerry Patrick was tall, blond, wearing jump boots and the trousers tucked into the top, very much a Joe Palooka type. Skip Hall professed to be an ex-Marine, I believe officer, I'm not sure, at least this is what he told us, small, wiry, dark hair, olive complexion he at one time introduced us to his wife. I do not recall what her name was. They lived in an apartment in, I believe, in Monterey Park, somewhere near the state college campus. They were out here on a speaking and fund raising campaign for going back to Cuba, and as I remember, they were out gathering various types of military accouterments, weapons, medicines, so on and so forth. How they obtained these weapons was not part of any information that was given to either Mr Hathcock or myself. Though they did tell me, or rather Lorenzo Hall did tell me that he had his closet in his apartment full of weapons, and that he was afraid that the FBI was going to come in there and raid the place and take him along, and they were going to have to smuggle them out. And they were getting ready to go to, to go back to Cuba. He drew us a map on an inlet on the shore of south of Havana or near Havana that was the oil storage reservoir and tank farm. It showed on this map the tank farm and several storage docks, and what they had planned on doing was taking a boat to Kingston, Jamaica, refueling, and then going in as frogmen to take satchel charges of plastic explosives and set them on the storage tank farm and the dock area and destroy this to cripple Cuba by getting rid of all of the fuel, oil, gasoline, etc., that was presently sotred for Castro. About I would say, ten days, fifteen days, maybe a month, somewhere along in there, prior to President Kennedy's assassination, here I am fuzzy on the exact period. But Lorenzo Hall and a fat, Mexican fellow came in and redeemed the rifle. Now this rifle I had been told that it would, that it had gone on several Cuban raids in the past, and knowing that it is very easy to modify a weapon such as this to make it full automatic, and that it did have nine rounds in the chamber, nine rounds in the weapon and one in the chamber, making it ten rounds that could be fired automactically, I took the weapon and test fired it, and then pulled it apart to make sure that it had not been tampered with. It had not and was a straight semi-automatic weapon. It was a Johnson semi-automatic 30.06, it had a 30 power variable Bushnell scope, very much like a telephone lens, on a camrea. I would say that this weapon properly sighted in would put a hole in a dime at 500 yards. The bullets would be fired as fast as one could pull the trigger. Ten seconds, ten rounds, or les. They picked this weapon up and signed a note that they had picked it up as I was present in the office when these two gentlemen were there to pick the weapon up. Approximately the next day or two, they left for Miami, and I made the statement to this Lorenzo Hall that, well, we'll be reading about you in the paper. Well, Dick and I went about our business as normal as far as the agency was concerned and didn't really think about them except to say, well, we hadn't heard anything. Five days prior to the assassination of President Kennedy, on a Monday, Mr Patrick, excuse me, Mr Hall, was in Hollywood, California, in front of out building, talking with Mr Hathcock, and I stopped and talked to them, and of course I said, well, why don't you come over and let's go get a cup of coffee, and tell us what happened, and he said, well, no he I've got to make the plane for Dallas. The situation with Mr Pacillio or Mr Hall is that he stated to me when I asked him, well, you know, what happened during the situation we didn't hear anything. He said that the CIA confiscated and arrested everybody at the boat in Miami, and I asked him at the time why didn't he get himself arrested also, and he said, well, he was on the dock and could not, be connected with tthe situation. They didn't have any evidence against him. I'm going to make an assumption now, or a realtively educated assumption. The CIA is not an arrestive body, nor are they an internal United States intelligence agency functional agency. This I did not recall, it just didn't make any sense to me until later. Of course Friday, I believe, November 22, was the assassination that Friday was the assassination at noon in Los Angeles, out time, and the next day I received a telephone call from my business partner Dick Hathcock, telling me that there was a gentleman coming into the office that wanted to talke to us, that gentleman was a special agent of the FBI, a Jerry Crow, who is stall presently with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and at the Los Angeles field Office. Mr Crow came in and I opened the door for him and he showed me his identificaiton, he had a big bundle of papers with him and a large, in a large manilla envelope, and he introduced himself, and I said, "Hi, my name is Roy Payne, come in." I introduced him to Mr Hathcock, my partner, and Mrs Hathcock was there also, and he put his bundle down on the chair in front of the desk and took some papers out and said, "I would like to ask some questions about Skip Hall and Roy Payne," and I said, well, "I'm Roy Payne, why don't you ask me whatever you want to ask." He seeemed rather surprised that I was there. At least that was the impression that I got. We discussed the situation about what had occurred and what has gone on with Jerry Patrick Hemming and SKip Hall, Lorenzo Pacillio, and so on, then I did not see him for quite some time after that. I did, however, find that the FBI, or someone, was, I can only make assumption, was following me and did tail me for some months after that. I had an ex-brother-in-law who was, and I am not correct with this, he is deceased now, and his was Harvey Berkey, who was the assistant agent in charge of the local field office for the FBI here. In asking or making an attempt to ask Harvey what the heck was going on, Harvey refused to talk to me, and I could not gain entrance to his house, he would not answer the door, nor would his wife nor his children. There was on one occasion, I did run into Harvey Berkey outside of my office with Mr Hathcock, and he did not want to talk to me at all and excused himself and said he had to go. I did, within the week after the assassination of the President, have occasion to go to Palm Springs, I believe it was on a Thursday, and I stayed at a small motel upon entering the town, and about three o'clock in the morning had occasion to see two gentlemen go through my vehicle pretty thoroughly, and they had keys to enter and to go through my car, they went through the glove compartment, I had had evidence prior to that that my vehicle had been entered and searched as well as out offices, which then had been moved to, Allied Detectives moved to 6605 Hollywood Boulevard, on the third floor. We had Suite 310, which covered several rooms, adn we did have a system to show whether our offices had been entered and the file had been searched several times. We feel, or felt that out telephone, both at home, the answering service for the office, and both our homes had been tapped. This went on for several months. The next night, Saturday, after the assassination, I had to drive to Santa Maria and was there overnight. There were three vehicles that followed my car up Pacific Coast Highway all the way up to Santa Maria and then again picked me up the next day when I went through several of the small towns in the rural area and up to Highway 99, which is now I-5, and then comeing back the Ridge Route. The same subject vehicles that followed me the next day after the assassination were the same vehicles that I saw in Palm Springs for the a week later, along with the same gentlemen, that were in them. Like I say, this went on for quite some time, two to three months after the assassination. One afternoon, about ten days or two weeks after the assassination, about 4:30 in the afternoon, I received a telephone call at the office from Lorenzo Hall, or Lorenzo Pacillio. I said, "Hey buddy, you better have a lot of witnesses because you were in Dallas at the time of the assassination,: and he said, "I've got witnesses to prove that I was right in the middle of the lobby of the Hilton Hotel, and a hundred people know I was there, and I was nowhere near where Kennedy was assassinated." When the District Attorney of New Orleans, Jim Garrison, came to California with an order or request for extradition of two gentlemen, one gentleman was from Burbank, the other gentleman was Skip Hall, or Lorenzo Pacillio, the same man, in a newspaper statement that Mr Hall or Mr Pacillo had made, he stated that he had never been in the state of Texas, yet he had told me that he had gone to Texas, that he was leaving that Monday prior to the assassination to go to Dallas, and that he has a hundred witnesses in a hotel to show that he had been in Dallas, Texas, but was nowhere near the assassination site. Let's see here. I have never heard from again this Lorenzo Pacillio, or Lorenzo Hall, he had never made any attempt to contact me or call me, he did tell me at the time of this one phone call, that several attempts had been made on his life, that his car had been boobed once or twice, and it had been blown up. He said someone else who had started the vehicle had been blown up with it. I have no direct knowledge that there was an automobile bombing. I have never pursued the situation. I did on one occasion go and drive out to visit with Jerry Patrick Hemming, who was living somewhere off the San Berardino Freeway, Monterey Park, Montebello, in that specfic area. He discussed with me at the time about turning over the rifle to them and he didn't like the idea that the rifle went down there, since he felt it was his rifle and the golf clubs that were also hocked at that time the original meeting were Lorenzo Pacillio;s, and that the rifle was his, and other than that particular conversation, I have never had any further contact Jerry Patrick, or as I say, no further contact at all with Lorenzo Hall. I understood that he had been living in central California for some period of time, and in a compuound type of area, and operated a bar or a cocktail lounge or a beer bar or tavern in the downtown area. Then I understood later from Dick Hathcock that he is now back down here in Southern California and is living somewhere out in the Monterey Park Montebello area and has been in and out of the hospital once or twice, but other that that I have no direct knowledge to bring situations up to date. I declare under penalty of perjury that the above eight-page affidavit is true and correct to the best of my belief and knowledge. signed LEROY BARTON PAYNE

Here's something I posted before about Hall. This is from a letter from Wiley Yates to Jim Garrison (June 28, 1967). Yates goes on to say: "He (Loran Hall) suggested to me in subsequent conversations that I help him to raid a National Guard armory to obtain the sorely needed weapons and ammunition. This I declined to do, so that he dropped the subject and never referred to it again." And "Accoring to Hall some man had given the Cubans permission to use his farm for a training site in the Dallas arear, and he (Hall) wanted me to help instruct the men in the first aid practices with with I was familiar." And "Hall spoke fluent Spanish and was supposed to be a personal friend of the Cuban leader Manolo Rey. During the time at our home, Hal made a great show of writing Rey about activities then under way in Dallas..." "Hall left after mentioning that he was traveling regularly between Florida and California, through both New Orelans and Dallas areas, and would contact me again."

This is kind of interesting, on page 40 of his testimony, Hall talks about going to Dallas and hooking up with Niko Crespi, "after April and before the middle of July." According to the official record, the LHO we all know and love had moved from Dallas to New Orleans on April 24th. I wonder who the "Oswald" that was going to give a pro Castro talk was. And I've never seen this public talk mentioned anywhere else. Steve Thomas Steve, If my memory is still working, Hall later changed this date to Oct. '63 in his interview with Dick Russell. This is in his The Man Who Knew Too Much. Dave

James, If I was to speculate, I'd say that Hall was a sometimes informant. Hall and Seymour were arrested (this is all from memory) in Dallas (Oct 17?) for towing a trailer with no plates. The police found dexadrine in their car. If I recall, they were on their way back to Dallas from Miami to pick up some weapons that they left at Lester Logue's father's place. These weapons that they picked up at Clint Wheat's house in California needed to be converted rfom semi-auto to full auto. This is where masen came in. He contacted Nonte about spare parts for conversion. Notice that Seymour was questioned and soon released but they held onto Hall for a few days before Hall could contact Logue and have Logue call Robert Morris. But hey, it's all speculation and I've been known to be wrong...:-)

Hey James, This is something I looked at some years ago and came to the conclusion that it was Hosty, Ellsworh and Coyle. They were working together on the Nonte/Masen weapons thing. Dave

I've read the opposite, eye movement up and to the left is created scenarios (lies). I don't know if it matters if the person is right or left handed. Either way I wouldn't consider it particularly reliable. Though I would try not to look up and to the left if I was in a big meeting with my boss or something. Myra, I should have been clearer. His right, our left. :-) A little more research on my part shows that this is indeed an "imagined" or "created" image although it is not 100% but only a trend. So who knows...

Thanks for that Gil. Does anyone know any NLP? What little I've read indicates that an eye movement from center to upper right is a "created" memory. Vecianan seems to be doing this when he mentions Oswald and Dallas.

Douglas, Thanks for coming here and answering some hard questions. I'm not sure that all of us recognise this unique opportunity. Dave

Gordon Hall, along with his friend, Grace Hoag, were long time..er...monitors of the right and left wing extremists. Gordon was very close to some of them. Hell, when George Lincoln Rockwell was arrested, who was the first person he called? Gordon Hall. Gordon was also very much aware of Oswald, most likely through Banister. Otepka was close to Julien Sourwine, Robert Morris, and Ray Rocca.