Paul Jolliffe

Paul, It seems highly probable that a sniper team was in the sixth floor SE corner window of the TSBD. Were any shots actually fired from that location? I don't know - it is possible, I suppose. A rifle was found later on the sixth floor, but whether it was really the notorious MC Italian rifle is another question. Many researchers have long mused that the sixth floor team was meant to pose (hang out a window) with a rifle before, during and briefly after the assassination. Given their obvious visibility to witnesses on the ground before the shooting, that scenario seems pretty likely. In any event, the medical and photographic evidence seems to indicate strongly that at least one shot struck the president in the head from the front.

Pat, In Truly's own words (under oath) he swore that he both noticed and acted on "Oswald's" absence within "moments or minutes" after arriving back on the first floor with Baker. Truly did this even though he did not know where all of "his boys" were at that moment. Some were missing, and he knew that, but he was concerned with and acted only because of "Oswald." Truly did not wait an hour - he was determined to act within "moments or minutes". And since he estimated that he and Baker had arrived back on the first floor withing five to ten minutes of their ascent, then it follows that Truly had "noticed" "Oswald's" absence by 12:40 or so. Long before Fritz was notified. Even before Inspector Sawyer's infamous 12:45 suspect description call to the DPD dispatchers. As early as 12:40, according to his own testimony, Roy Truly was concerned only with "Oswald." Why? Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got back to the first floor, or what did you see?Mr. TRULY. When I got back to the first floor, at first I didn't see anything except officers running around, reporters in the place. There was a regular madhouse.Mr. BELIN. Had they sealed off the building yet, do you know?Mr. TRULY. I am sure they had.Mr. BELIN. Then what?Mr. TRULY. Then in a few minutes--it could have been moments or minutes at a time like that--I noticed some of my boys were over in the west corner of the shipping department, and there were several officers over there taking their names and addresses, and so forth.There were other officers in other parts of the building taking other employees, like office people's names. I noticed that Lee Oswald was not among these boys.So I picked up the telephone and called Mr. Aiken down at the other warehouse who keeps our application blanks. Back up there.First I mentioned to Mr. Campbell--I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him, he looked around and said no.Mr. BELIN. When you asked Bill Shelley if he had seen whom?Mr. TRULY. Lee Oswald. I said, "Have you seen him around lately," and he said no.So Mr. Campbell is standing there, and I said, "I have a boy over here missing. I don't know whether to report it or not." Because I had another one or two out then. I didn't know whether they were all there or not. He said, "What do you think"? And I got to thinking. He said, "Well, we better do it anyway." It was so quick after that.

Pat, I tend to agree with your theory that the west freight elevator was very possibly an escape route for at least one of the upper floor conspirators. I agree that if Jack Dougherty was actually on the first floor in the bathroom at the time of the assassination, then he must have ridden an elevator up to the fifth floor in order to be seen by Truly later. If so, then as I pointed out before, Dougherty almost certainly came face-to-face with at least one escaping conspirator when the elevator opened on the first floor. For you and everyone else here, is there any evidence that BOTH of the freight elevators were actually locked in place on the fifth floor, other than Roy Truly's say-so? Truly looked up the elevator shaft and claimed to see that both elevators were on the SAME floor. Is it possible that he was mistaken (or something else) and that the west freight elevator was actually locked on the sixth floor? Is there any evidence that BOTH of the freight elevators were on the fifth floor at the same time before the assassination? If not, then how did an escaping assassin get on the fifth floor elevator without being seen or heard by Junior Jarman, Bonnie Ray Williams and Harold Norman? If those three really ran down the stairs before an escaping assassin arrived on the fifth floor, then how did Jarman, Williams and Norman elude Truly and Baker? I suspect Jarman, Williams and Norman did not immediately leave the fifth floor, but instead lingered for a little bit. So how did they miss an assassin using the west freight elevator, if that elevator really was on the fifth floor the whole time? Somebody took the elevator down. But from which floor? By the time Truly and Baker reached the fifth floor, that west freight elevator wasn't there. Beyond Truly's statement, how do we know it was really on the fifth floor to begin with? (Was it actually on the sixth floor the whole time, locked in place until needed for the sixth floor assassins?)

It is impossible to say for certain whether this man in New Orleans is William Hoyt Shelley of TSBD fame, but either way, it is beyond doubt that our man "Oswald" was in the immediate presence in two different cities (Dallas and New Orleans) of a man who greatly resembled Shelley.

Pat, You and I agree that Truly may not have notified Fritz until roughly an hour had passed. But that's not the point. The key point is that Truly had made the decision very, very quickly to identify "Oswald", and "Oswald" alone, as a suspect. Even at a time when he, Truly, knew that some other of "his boys" were missing! He said it! He knew others were missing, yet he went after "Oswald" only! Read his own words. (Cited in post above.) Truly said he believed "Oswald" was missing within minutes (or maybe "moments") of returning to the first floor. He said he consulted Shelley and Campbell and then "It was so quick after that." How did Truly come to suspect only "Oswald" so soon, long before Truly later talked to Fritz?

Joe, Here is a picture of Bonnie Ray Williams, Danny Arce and William Shelley entering a squad car. I don't know exactly the time. What is curious to me is that Bonnie Ray Williams first day statement said nothing about being on the sixth floor around 12:00 noon. It was only AFTER Wiliams was interviewed by the FBI did the sixth floor scenario emerge.

I agree, Roger. Harold Weisberg once told me the same thing - namely he claimed he had told his wife before "Oswald" was shot that the case was being "railroaded" (Weisberg's term.)

Truly admitted under oath that he did not know the whereabouts of all of "his boys": "Because I had another one or two out then. I didn't know whether they were all there or not . . ." So why "Oswald", especially within "moments or minutes"?

The question is not whether "Oswald" left or was the only to do so, the question is how in such a short time ("moments or minutes") did Truly know that with such certainty?

Forgive me everyone for belaboring this point, but I just don't see how anyone can read the relevant portions of Roy Truly's WC testimony and not suspect that Truly had a hidden agenda. As Truly himself said, he singled out "Oswald" not because he was the only one missing, but because as soon as Truly returned to the first floor ("it could have been moments or minutes at a time like that"), "Oswald" was the only one "that I could be certain right then was missing." How Roy? How could you be "certain"? Mr. TRULY. Then in a few minutes--it could have been moments or minutes at a time like that--I noticed some of my boys were over in the west corner of the shipping department, and there were several officers over there taking their names and addresses, and so forth.There were other officers in other parts of the building taking other employees, like office people's names. I noticed that Lee Oswald was not among these boys.So I picked up the telephone and called Mr. Aiken down at the other warehouse who keeps our application blanks. Back up there.First I mentioned to Mr. Campbell--I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him, he looked around and said no.Mr. BELIN. When you asked Bill Shelley if he had seen whom?Mr. TRULY. Lee Oswald. I said, "Have you seen him around lately," and he said no.So Mr. Campbell is standing there, and I said, "I have a boy over here missing. I don't know whether to report it or not." Because I had another one or two out then. I didn't know whether they were all there or not. He said, "What do you think"? And I got to thinking. He said, "Well, we better do it anyway." It was so quick after that.So I picked the phone up then and called Mr. Aiken, at the warehouse, and got the boy's name and general description and telephone number and address at Irving.Mr. BELIN. Did you have any address for him in Dallas, or did you just have an address in Irving?Mr. TRULY. Just the address in Irving. I knew nothing of this Dallas address. I didn't know he was living away from his family.Mr. BELIN. Now, would that be the address and the description as shown on this application, Exhibit 496?Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.Mr. BELIN. Did you ask for the name and addresses of any other employees who might have been missing?Mr. TRULY. No, sir.Mr. BELIN. Why didn't you ask for any other employees?Mr. TRULY. That is the only one that I could be certain right then was missing.

Pat Speer said: "Because Oswald had been in the building, and had been the employee he'd (Roy Truly) last observed before he went up to the roof." "Oswald" was not the last employee Truly passed before he and Baker went to the roof of the TSBD. We all agree that Dorothy Garner saw Truly and Baker as they came up to the fourth floor. If he missed her because he was intent on getting to the roof as quickly as possible, then how could he know who was or was not on the upper floors? There were several employees, male and female, on the fourth floor. We all agree (I think) that Williams, Jarman and Norman were on the fifth floor. (Whether Bonnie Ray Williams was ever on the sixth floor after 12:00 noon is doubtful, but that's another topic.) While racing up the stairs with Baker, Truly may or may not have observed any of them on the upper floors of the TSBD, but they were there, and Truly had good reason to believe they were there: he was the supervisor of the TSBD. By his own admission, Truly had not done made a thorough accounting of each and every possible male employee at the time he decided to alert the DPD to "Oswald's" absence. My question remains: at a time when Truly knew there were many people on the upper floors of the TSBD, not all of whom could he account for, why did he single out "Oswald"?

Well said, Jim. We are all (well, most of us here, anyway) in danger of getting derailed when the real point is simple: Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles were on the stairs at a time when "Oswald" also had to have been on the stairs. They neither saw nor heard him. He wasn't there. And because the Warren Commission weasels (oops) "lawyers" went to enormous lengths to cover that up, they could then promote their false "solution" to the assassination. A politically expedient "solution" that satisfied all major powers in Washington, D.C., regardless of whether any were active conspirators or not.

But Pat, By Truly's own admission, he had not made a complete check of his employees. He did not know who was and who was not "milling around" and who was actually missing. He cleared Charles Givens because Truly had seen him shortly before the shots, walking on Elm. So why didn't he clear our "Oswald" with whom he had just (supposedly) had a memorable encounter on the second floor, far from the sniper's nest? Truly singled out "Oswald" at a time when he admitted he did not know who was and who was not accounted for. Why?

Gene, What has always seemed bizarre at best (or deeply conspiratorial at worst) was Truly's behavior right then: Roy Truly himself had just cleared "Oswald" (supposedly) if we believe the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter story. So why did Truly within just a matter of a few minutes - WITHOUT A COMPLETE "ROLL CALL"! - decide that "Oswald" should be a suspect in the eyes of the Dallas Police? We are expected to believe that Truly decided within 10 -12 minutes after seeing "Oswald" in the lunchroom (allegedly) that Truly asked Mr. Akin in the records department to find "Oswald's" home address so he, Truly, could give it to the DPD. Why? So he "could be more accurate than I otherwise would be." WTF? Mr. TRULY. When I noticed this boy was missing, I told Chief Lumpkin that "We have a man here that's missing." I said, "It my not mean anything, but he isn't here." I first called down to the other warehouse and had Mr. Akin pull the application of the boy so I could get--quickly get his address in Irving and his general description, so I could be more accurate than I would be.Mr. BALL. Was he the only man missing?Mr. TRULY. The only one I noticed at that time. Now, I think there was one or two more, possibly Charles Givens, but I had seen him out in front walking up the street just before the firing of the gun.Mr. BALL. But walking which way?Mr. TRULY. The last time I saw him, he was walking across Houston Street, east on Elm.Mr. BALL. Did you make a check of your employees afterwards?Mr. TRULY. No, no; not complete. No, I just saw the group of the employees over there on the floor and I noticed this boy wasn't with them. With no thought in my mind except that I had seen him a short time before in the building, I noticed he wasn't there.Mr. BALL. What do you mean "a short time before"?Mr. TRULY. I would say 10 or 12 minutes.Mr. BALL. You mean that's when you saw him in the lunchroom?Mr. TRULY. In the lunchroom.Mr. BALL. And you noticed he wasn't over there?Mr. TRULY. Well, I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him around and he said "No." Roy Truly, you (allegedly) just vouched for him on the second floor! So why in the world did you point the finger at him just a very few minutes later, long before you knew for certain which of your employees were or were not still present, milling about in the crowd? Personally, I strongly suspect Truly was involved up to his eyeballs in setting up our "Oswald".

Pat, A possible simple answer is that the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter lie was the best they could do under the circumstances. I agree that placing our "Oswald" up on the 5th or 6th floor would have been much better, but Bart Kamp posited that this story was needed to cover an actual encounter with "Oswald" on the . . . first floor. "Oswald" seemed to verify during the DPD interrogations that he was confronted by a cop somewhere at some point inside the TSBD. (Whether it was really Baker, in this scenario, is unknown.) If, as we all suspect (except DVP) "Oswald" was nowhere near the sixth floor during the JFKA, then he probably was on the first floor eating lunch. Was he "Prayerman"? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. Did Roy Truly lie his eyes out about the 2nd floor? Very possibly. Was Marion Baker unable even as late as September 1964, to keep the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter story straight? Absolutely. Personally, I am inclined to take Sandy's question seriously. I think there really is a good chance it never happened that way. For what it's worth, the late Harold Weisberg told me in 1992 that he did not believe the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter happened the way the Warren Commission portrayed it. Back then, I was too ignorant and naive to appreciate fully what he meant. Now, I am (a little) wiser.

Yes, absolutely I think the WC lengthened the time in which Shelley and Lovelady arrived at the back of the TSBD. Why? Because no one could get Victoria Adams to back down in her (true!) assertion that she and Sandra Styles started down the stairs very soon after the shots. Was Jim Leavelle sent to try to intimidate her into changing her timeline? Absolutely. But it didn't work. She was adamant that she and Styles descended the stairs immediately after the shots. As far as Sandra Styles declaration to Barry Ernest forty years later, she may well be telling the truth: she did not see Shelley or Lovelady. But that does not necessarily mean they were not nearby. Neither does it mean that Adams could not have noticed them. It just means Styles did not see them. As to Adams' missing 1963 letter detailing her movements that day, well, it could have been swiped by the FBI, but I doubt it. It is very hard to steal an outgoing letter - the surveillance required to intercept incoming mail is easy, but almost impossible on an outgoing letter. How could the FBI have known in advance what she was going to put on paper, let alone when and where she might post it, if at all? Did it get lost in the mail? I don't know, but since we don't have it, it doesn't matter - we don't know what she wrote. This really isn't that hard, Roger: the WC had to crack Adams one way or another and getting Shelley and Lovelady to stretch their timelines was it. Therefore, because Adams was brave and truthful (and stubborn), the WC had no choice but to find other, more malleable witnesses. Ergo the changing timeframes of Shelley and Lovelady.

"Baker" not "Truly" noticed the two white men by the elevator. Typo.

Well, we will have to disagree on this minor point. The evidence shows that Victoria Adams did claim to have seen Shelley and Lovelady - she marked up and corrected her own transcript in which she said exactly that in 1964. She made no corrections nor objections to her transcript in which she said that! Anyway, I do NOT accept as "fact" that Shelley and Lovelady took 5 - 10 minutes to return to the back of the TSBD. You do. OK, that's your prerogative. But I see no reason to believe that - their first day statements belie that timeline, they changed stories repeatedly in 1964 and Lovelady's garbled admission to the HSCA in 1978 about seeing Truly and Baker seems to undermine that, too. I think they got to the back of the TSBD within about a minute or so. I am convinced that Shelley and Lovelady were pressured to change (lengthen) their estimates so as to damage Victoria Adams' credibility. That is exactly what the gradual change in their own stories would indicate. Anyway, as Pat Speer already pointed out in this very thread, Shelley and Lovelady could well have walked at a fast pace around the south side of the TSBD and up to the west side entrance in time to be adjacent to freight elevators before Baker and Truly arrived. Such a walk could have been done in less than a minute. If that is correct, and I believe it is, then the timing is perfect - Adams and Styles arrive on the first floor the stairs just seconds after Shelley and Lovelady. Adams and Styles then leave just moments before Truly and Baker arrive. Truly notices "two white men", but the Warren Commission doesn't dare follow up, Why not? Because further investigation would have (almost certainly) revealed that the two men were indeed Shelley and Lovelady, just as Victoria Adams claimed. Their immediate presence would have buttressed her credibility, not undermined it. And supporting Victoria Adams and her timeline would have destroyed the Warren Commission's false "solution".

Roger, You and I and almost everyone else here all agree that Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles came down the stairs very soon (within a matter of 30 seconds or so) after the shots were fired, and that this presented a major (if not completely insurmountable) timing problem for the Warren Commission. Their only real chance of keeping their false "solution" alive was to discredit Adams (and ignore Styles and Garner.) But Roger, she really did testify in 1964 that she saw Shelley and Lovelady. If this is not so, then she said nothing for four decades about what the Warren Commission printed in Volume 6, page 389 and 390 of her testimony in 1964: John F. Kennedy Assassination Homepage :: Warren Commission :: Hearings :: Volume VI :: Page 389 (jfk-assassination.eu) Roger, we all know the Warren Commission destroyed the original steno tape. But so what? They published this version of her testimony in 1964! And Victoria Adams had no problem with it - she even hand-corrected and initialed the original stenographic typewritten transcript of her own testimony in 1964. In short, she acknowledged in 1964 that she really had seen Shelley and Lovelady at the foot of the stairs as soon as she came down. If this was all a big lie by the Warren Commission, then it was incumbent on Barry Ernest forty years later to confront her with her with that copy of her own testimony with her own handwriting on it. But he did not do so. He let her off the hook. I like Barry Ernest and I admire the hard work he did. But he did not force her to deny her own handwritten corrections on her own testimony - probably because he was just too nice a guy. So you and I will have to disagree on your last point - it certainly is possible to believe that Victoria Adams both destroyed the WC's "solution" and that she really did see Shelley and Lovelady when she came down, just as the WC quoted her in sworn testimony first published in 1964.

Jean Paul, I believe that Ball's failure to ask Shelley about Dougherty's statement (about Shelley's alleged claim that "Oswald" brought a large package to work) was deliberate and very careful. Many of us here suspect that Shelley played some role in setting up "Oswald" on at least some level. Ball may have been aware of similar suspicions and was not going there. Further, it is impossible that Dougherty made up that story out of the blue. It is highly likely that Shelley did indeed belatedly tell Dougherty about "Oswald's package". (This is NOT to say that Shelley told Dougherty the truth.) No. I think it is probable that Shelley lied to Dougherty to keep Dougherty in line, so to speak. If, as Pat Speer has demonstrated, at least one conspirator left the upper floors by way of the west freight elevator, while Dougherty really was on the first floor waiting to take an elevator up to go back to work, then it is almost certain that Jack Dougherty came face-to-face with an escaping assassin. Dougherty may or may not have been mildly retarded. But even so, he needed to be "reminded" of "Oswald's" guilt - and Shelley's belated remark to him would have been just the thing. But Ball didn't dare ask Shelley about "Oswald's" package because it never existed. "Oswald" did not enter the TSBD that morning with anything in his hands. Jack Dougherty himself said so! No one saw him in the TSBD on that day or ever with anything resembling the infamous rifle bag. (Troy West explicitly denied that it was even theoretically possible for "Oswald" or anyone else to have constructed such a bag.) If Ball had asked Shelley about Dougherty's statement, it is highly probable that Shelley would have perjured himself. But Ball was stuck - he knew it wasn't true. And if he, Ball, took that testimony then he himself was guilty of suborning perjury, and risked disbarment! Therefore Ball took the only out available to him - he did not ask Shelley about it.

Roger, I'm not sold on that. Yes, she explicitly told Barry Ernest 40 years after the fact that she did not see Shelley and Lovelady, and she now claimed that she never did, but consider: She did mark up in 1964 the extant transcript of her testimony in which she was quoted about seeing Shelley and Lovelady. I have great regard for Barry Ernest, but honestly, he should have made her explain the 1964 transcript, the one with her handwriting on it. If it wasn't her handwriting, he should have made her say so. He did not. After all, her testimony had been part of the public record since 1964, and she never once told anyone the Shelley/Lovelady sighting was a complete lie by the WC until four decades later. She thought the WC disbelieved her because of the Shelley/Lovelady bit. What she didn't realize was that they were going to discredit her no matter what she said. For decades she stewed over the Shelley/Lovelady thing, unaware it was a red herring. After forty years, she'd convinced herself she'd never said it. On that minor point I think she was mistaken, but it doesn't really make much difference: we all agree that the WC was desperate to discredit her by any means necessary because their "solution" was to pin it all on "Oswald". And Victoria Adams (and Sandra Styles, and Dorothy Garner) stood in their way.

Yeah, I have long suspected that the WC failure to question Inspector Sawyer about the man exiting the passenger elevator as he, Sawyer, rushed in was a deliberate failure to pursue a lead. After all, Sawyer is in the building very quickly, and some unknown male is leaving the passenger elevator from an upper floor at that very moment. If that was an innocent employee, the WC would have tasked the FBI with tracking that man. But the WC ignored this mystery man instead. Which leads to my own theory about the escape of the two sixth - floor conspirators: one took the west freight elevator down, and the other took the passenger elevator from the fourth floor down. (Now how that conspirator got to the fourth - floor passenger elevator on the east side of the TSBD is a topic for another thread.)

Great summary, Pat. I've long suspected the 5th floor west elevator was the "getaway" vehicle for at least one of the sixth - floor conspirators, but you have raised the bar enormously. All of these failures by highly competent lawyers were not "oversights." These were deliberate omissions, designed to conceal rather than reveal the truth. The WC lawyers were afraid to ask the relevant questions lest testimony be introduced that would undermine the official, false, solution to the crime.

All true, Roger. We all agree (Dave Von Pein loudly excepted) that our man "Oswald" did NOT run down the stairs from the sixth floor after the shooting. Whatever the origin of the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter story, there is no doubt in my mind that Baker did indeed confront a suspect near the stairs inside the TSBD on about the "3rd or 4th floor." After all, that is exactly what Baker wrote in his first day affidavit late in the afternoon of the 22nd. Baker, as we all know, wrote that affidavit describing the suspect while he, Baker, could see our "Oswald" in plain view in Fritz's office at that very moment. Yet Baker did NOT identify our "Oswald" as the suspect he confronted inside the TSBD! Instead, Baker went to some length to provide a physical description of the man - not "Oswald" - he confronted. Why? Because Baker believed that the man he confronted, the man vouched for by Truly, was in fact, a conspirator, one who was still on the loose. There is no other possible explanation for why Baker wrote what he wrote on the afternoon in Fritz's office. [Affidavit of M. L. Baker, November 22, 1963] - Page 1 of 2 - The Portal to Texas History (unt.edu)