Paul Jolliffe

I think Greg has presented a solid case that the second car seen by Kirk Coleman was indeed Robert Surrey's 1961 Ford Sunliner, and that Surrey himself drove it out of the church parking lot within a minute or so after the Walker shot. Coupled with the tantalizing information from Gayle Nix-Jackson that both David and William Surrey claimed to have been eyewitnesses to the father's acquaintance with "Lee", the "attempted" Walker shooting was certainly some sort of false-flag action by provocateurs, probably with Surrey's knowledge. But since there was in 1963 (and remains to this day) exactly zero physical evidence that Marina's husband fired at Walker on the evening of April 10, 1963, then her belated statements concerning her husband's "involvement" should be viewed very skeptically . . .

Stamped by the Warren Commission "INDEXED" "Date" (hand-written) "2 - 1964"

The only date we have for the Revill/Gannaway memo in which Teofil Meller stated that the FBI had declared "Oswald" "all right", is hazy. It was "indexed" by the Warren Commission and part of Commission document 950. The hand-written date appears as "2 - 1964". Liebeler questioned Anna Mellor five weeks later on March 5, 1964. In his questioning, Liebeler asked Anna about how many times she had been interviewed by various agencies. She had been interrogated by the FBI, the Secret Service and the Dallas P.D.! Liebeler then danced right up to the key question ("What did Teofil think the FBI meant when they told him that "Oswald" was "all right"?) and then scooted away into the "safe" territory of wife-beating . . . Liebeler knew - the Commission published the damning memo months later without a word of comment from Liebeler or anyone else on that lying commission. Note how close Liebeler to asking Anna Meller about the taboo ("Oswald's" relationship to the FBI) before deftly changing the subject: Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember being interviewed by the FBI?Mrs. MELLER - Yes, sir; three times.Mr. LIEBELER - Three times?Mrs. MELLER - Yes, sir - oh, I mean from FBI one time; Secret Service another time, and third time it was from police. I cannot recall name but it was three times together.Mr. LIEBELER - As far as you can remember the FBI only interviewed you once?Mrs. MELLER - Yes; once FBI, once Secret Service, and once Dallas group.Mr. LIEBELER - Was it the Dallas police force?Mrs. MELLER - Yes.Mr. LIEBELER - Dallas police officers?Mrs. MELLER - Yes, yes.Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever form an opinion as to who was responsible for these marital difficulties the Oswalds were having? Did you think it was mostly Lee Harvey's fault or did you think it was partly her fault, or what?Mrs. MELLER - It was not easy to judge but I think since we do not know them very close and very long, let's say this way but it seems to me again that Lee Oswald was not normal because later I heard. from somebody that Liebeler knew.

Are you really implyng that the Meller's somehow conspired to hide Teofil Meller's call to the FBI from Liebeler? Liebeler's job was to know and ask about everything relating to his witnesses. The Warren Commission had the DPD memo titled "Criminal Intelligence: Teofil Meller". If Liebeler truly did not know, then he was incompetent and stupid, and nothing of value can ever be learned of any witness he questioned in any context. However, Liebeler was neither incompetent nor stupid. He (and all of the Warren Commission attorneys) knew what they had to find: no conspiracy, come hell or high water. When Anna Meller testified that seeing "Das Kapital" in the "Oswald" home made her "real upset", rather than asking her the natural follow-up question ("What did you then do?"), Liebeler changed the subject. I don't see any way to read that except that Liebeler was well aware that he was on dangerous ground and needed to tread carefully. Mrs. MELLER - I said to Marina "What's this book doing here", something like that. I mentioned something and she said Lee takes all those books from the library and reading them. I did not say much after but I was real upset.Mr. LIEBELER - Was that the last time that you saw him?Mrs. MELLER - It was maybe last time that we visited Marina in her house.

Liebeler questioned Anna Meller about the very same "Das Kapital" incident as referenced in the Revill DPD memo. Remember, the subject of that Revill memo was "Criminal Intelligence: Teofil Meller", and Liebeler had Teofil sitting right there. Mr. LIEBELER - Let's go on and establish the other times that you saw Oswaldand the circumstances and then I will ask you some questions about his experiences in Russia and you can tell me whether he ever told you about any thing or when you learned about anything. When did you next see Oswald?Mrs. MELLER - Later on, probably in the next month, we visited Marina Oswald about two or three times and during this time, couple times, probably one time we did not see him at all. He started to work somewhere and two times we met him we came close to five or probably close to six, to Fort Worth and he come straight from work, still in work clothes and we speak little bit this time. We brought - always for Marina, we brought some groceries for Marina, George Bouhe and I, some clothes to wear and for baby and I saw baby didn't have bed. Baby was sleeping on two suit cases, old suit cases. It was a made baby bed. I never talk much to Lee Oswald and he was pretty quiet most of the time. However, probably on the last time I went over their house, we stayed for hour there or maybe even less, give those things and, come back home. On the third time probably, I noticed in the living room on what you will call that table that the lamp was sitting near the divan. I notice several books; it was "Kapital" book Karl Marx and literature about Communism. It caught my eye and I we real upset.Mr. LIEBELER - Did you say anything to Oswald?Mrs. MELLER - I said to Marina "What's this book doing here", something like that. I mentioned something and she said Lee takes all those books from the library and reading them. I did not say much after but I was real upset. Gerry, you and I agree (I think) that the Warren Commission did not want any evidence that would "create problems" - they were determined to find "no conspiracy", no matter where the truth lay.

Thanks, Jim for posting that. As I read it, I was reminded that the Warren Commission was incredibly highly selective about the questions posed to various witnesses. Anna and Teofil Meller, mentioned in RCD's article, both appeared in person before Wesley Liebler in the spring of 1964. However, a search of the Warren Commission's testimony reveals that only Anna's name shows up as a witness. Hmm. Why? Because Teofil Meller had told the Dallas P.D. that in the summer of 1962 he had seen a copy of Karl Marx's "Das Capital" in "Oswald's" apartment and became so worried about "Oswald's" political leanings that he, Meller, called the FBI. The kicker? The FBI assured Teofil Meller that "Oswald" was "all right." Huh. Now that comment should have elicited some questions from Liebler to Teofil Meller - what exactly did Meller think that meant? With whom exactly had he spoken? Did Meller believe that "Oswald" was working for the FBI? If not, how else to interpret that? And so on. Instead, Liebeler did not want to know. How do we know that? Because Liebeler had Teofil Meller right there in person in front of him as Liebeler questioned Anna Meller and he asked Teofil Meller exactly nothing about anything. He wanted to stay as far away as possible from any "Oswald"/FBI connections. If Teofil Meller had good reason to believe that "Oswald" was OK with the anti-communist FBI, then the rest of the White Russian community did as well. Jack Revill's memo in which Teofil Meller told the DPD that the FBI cleared "Oswald" in 1962: Liebeler's weasel questioning of Anna Meller and his refusal to clear up or ask anything at all of Teofil Meller about the FBI and "Oswald". Liebeler avoided Teofil Meller like the plague even though he was right there in front of him! TESTIMONY OF ANNA N. MELLER The testimony of Anna N. Meller was taken at 9 a.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Mr. LIEBELER - Come in, Mr. and Mrs. Meller, and sit down. Before we start I want to make a statement for the record and for your information. Mrs. Meller, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff counsel such as myself have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. Last week, I believe Mr. Rankin sent to you, Mrs. Meller, a letter and told you I would be in touch with you this week and he sent with that letter copies of the Executive order and of the Resolution I just referred to as well as copies of the rules of procedure related to the taking of testimony. You did receive copies of those documents with that letter? Mrs. MELLER - Yes, sir. Mr. LIEBELER - We want to take your testimony this morning, Mrs. Meller, concerning your knowledge of the Oswalds that you obtained as a result of Marina Oswald living with you in your home for a period in October or November of 1962, and whatever other knowledge you may have concerning the background of the Oswalds or any facts relating to the assassination and the subsequent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

"On the other hand, LHO was arrested in front of multiple witnesses, who said he was armed. The story about him drawing his weapon may be hyperbole. It could be the witnesses are lying." Ben, I agree with you that our man "Oswald" almost certainly did have some firearm on him when he was confronted by the DPD in the Texas Theater. However, I strongly doubt his story as to how he came to have it (he went to 1026 N. Beckley to retrieve it because "that is what boys do.") No, that is NOT how he came to have it - there is exactly zero evidence he ever ordered, paid for, received (and stored any gun at that address) ever. So how did "Oswald" wind up with a handgun inside the theater? My guess is that he was given it by his contact in the theater, the person he was seeking. He did not know this person by sight - thus his seat-hopping before the movie routine - but he connected with this person, and they slipped it to him. Who was it? Well, the only evidence we have is the statement by patron Jack Davis who said that "Oswald" last sat next to a pregnant woman who then walked back to the lobby. We know that the DPD received numerous calls from inside the theater claiming that their suspect had arrived, armed with a shotgun over his shoulder. (We also know that the DPD tapes of those calls have disappeared, of course.) Ludicrous, yet those repeated calls (not from Julia Postal) prompted the DPD to react quickly. Did the pregnant woman make these calls to the DPD, once our "Oswald" had safely arrived and once she had slipped him the revolver? That's my guess. After all, what kind of actual "pregnant woman" goes to see a war movie on a matinee Friday by herself? None - she was an intelligence operative, whoever she was, and her assignment was to get a revolver into our "Oswald's" hands so the DPD could confront an armed suspect. Our "Oswald" figured that part out - that's why he claimed later that it had been "planted" on him. (Whether it was the revolver used in the Tippit killing is doubtful - I agree with Tom Gramm above that the Texas Theater revolver was probably swapped later with the Tippit revolver once the DPD had their hands on both guns.)

Joe, A couple of things: I also think it is likely that our man "Oswald" really was at Sylvia Odio's apartment, although with precisely who is unknown. I have written before about the startling contrast between what was said in his immediate presence and what was said the next day about him during the infamous phone call to Sylvia Odio. ("Leopoldo" only mentioned "Oswald's" crazy intensity when he, "Oswald", was no longer in earshot. In other words, "Oswald" did not know that his Latin companions were eager to label him a potential assassin to Sylvia Odio.) As to Orestes Pena and the incident in the Habana Bar in New Orleans, Pena claimed that "Oswald" was often accompanied at other times by a local FBI agent. The "lemonade" incident is well-known, but what is relatively unknown is that Pena himself was lead-piped in the head in 1968 when he was to meet Harold Weisberg to identify the FBI agent with "Oswald." Pena never made it to that meeting, and Weisberg was unable to ferret an identity from Pena later. As far as I know, Pena never said that Warren DeBrueys was the agent in question, but Weisberg strongly suspected it. So, your theory (which has been around a long time) that "Oswald's" drink was deliberately poisoned might be correct. After all, Pena and his buddies were staunch anti-Castro Cubans and they probably believed "Oswald" was a federal snitch/informant/source/etc. sent to spy on their activities. I think most people here probably agree with that theory. I do, anyway.

Manuel Garcia Gonzales. Hmm. What does Paul Bleau have to say about him?

Matthew, Weisberg's key point was correct: the rifle was not merely "thrown" or worse "tossed" into position. No, it had to be placed carefully on the floor between the boxes because there was a box "bridge" above it which both partially obscured it and prevented anyone from dropping it into position. Weisberg noted that the Secret Service "re-enactment" of "Oswald's" alleged movements after the shooting including throwing the rifle into position. Weisberg argued that the rifle simply could not have been thrown - it must have been placed there, carefully. So why was that distinction "tossed" versus "placed" important? Because every second counted in the official version of the crime. Any additional movements by "Oswald" meant additional seconds, and neither the Secret Service nor the FBI nor the Warren Commission wanted any evidence that it was impossible for "Oswald" (or anyone else) to have put that rifle into position and still to have made it to the second floor within 72-75 seconds (their timing.) They could not afford even the few extra seconds for "Oswald" to place the rifle in that spot. They had to have him throw it! No matter what anyone may think about the validity (or lack thereof) of the "Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter", all of us should agree that the Warren Commission relied heavily on it, if only to try to demonstrate that it was possible for "Oswald" to made it there in time and still be the only shooter. Weisberg was outraged that their "reconstruction" was not honest at all - it was a frame-up from the start. And that, I hope, is something on which we all can agree.

Good point, Tony. Many researchers for decades have long suspected that the FBI deliberately "modified" witness statements to fit a "no-conspiracy" scenario. In this case, they altered the length of time Wiliams spent on the sixth floor. They claimed he was only up there for three minutes - and therefore, if he left around 12:03, it would seem plausible to anyone reading their account of the interview, that Williams did NOT cross paths with the mechanics/conspirators. The FBI feared/knew that if they quoted Williams' own time estimate accurately, then it was virtually impossible for him not have seen or heard anyone else on the sixth floor. I am virtually certain that not only did Bonnie Ray Williams come face-to-face with some of the conspirators, but that the FBI also suspected it and intentionally shortened in their report the length of time Williams actually spent on the sixth floor.

Pat, Do you agree with me that if Bonnie Ray Williams left the sixth floor of his own accord sometime after 12:00 noon without seeing anyone, then it was a remarkably lucky coincidence for the sixth-floor conspirators? I don't put much stock in "lucky coincidence" in this case. I don't believe the sixth-floor conspirators would have relied on waiting out Bonnie Ray Williams. They were there to play a role in the assassination, and they surely weren't going to mess around and hope that BRW would leave on his own. I think it is highly likely they confronted him and shooed him off the floor under some "security" pretext. And he wouldn't have realized the significance of their presence until later.

Thanks for the link to Pat's stuff. There are some good quotes there. Check this out from a witness who knew Bonnie Ray Williams: (7-28-95 Sixth Floor Museum oral history of assassination witness John Templin) (When asked if he ever discussed the assassination with other eyewitnesses) "Over the years, I have. I met a gentleman named Williams. No, Bonnie Ray Williams was his name. Bonnie worked here at the building. I met him at General Motors, parts depot, after I started driving for Merchant’s Freight Lines here in Dallas and had some conversation with him. And Bonnie Ray, he was always... he was scared because so many people had died that had anything to do with that thing mysteriously. And he was a little bit leery all the time about it...He really didn’t offer anything other than he was here, and he was on the fifth floor. And that’s about it. He didn’t elaborate on it that much." If Bonnie Ray Williams really did see and/or was "ordered" off the sixth floor while eating his lunch before the assassination, then I'll bet he was scared . . .

Good question, Jean Paul. It is remarkable that Bonnie Ray Williams was on the very floor from which at least one, and probably two men were seen by witnesses on the ground just a few minutes later. Williams alleged that the sixth floor was very quiet: so quiet was "one of the reasons he left." Mr. DULLES. I would like to ask one question here. When you were on the sixth floor eating your lunch, did you hear anything that made you feel that there was anybody else on the sixth floor with you?Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I didn't hear anything. Mr. DULLES. You did not see anything?Mr. WILLIAMS. I did not see anything.Mr. DULLES. You were all alone as far as you knew at that time on the sixth floor?Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.Mr. DULLES. During that period of from 12 o'clock about to--10 or 15 minutes after?Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I felt like I was all alone. That is one of the reasons I left--because it was so quiet. "One of the reasons"? ("Do tell us what the other reasons were, Mr. Williams". Just joking, of course. Joseph Ball did not ask.) Further, according to Williams, the FBI had shortened the time he spent on the sixth floor - he claimed he never told them he was up there for only three minutes. Mr. WILLIAMS. It was after I had left the sixth floor, after I had eaten the chicken sandwich. I finished the chicken sandwich maybe 10 or 15 minutes after 12. I could say approximately what time it was.Mr. BALL. Approximately what time was it?Mr. WILLIAMS. Approximately 12:20, maybe.Mr. BALL. Well, now, when you talked to the FBI on the 23d day of November, you said that you went up to the sixth floor about 12 noon with your lunch, and you stayed only about 3 minutes, and seeing no one you came down to the fifth floor, using the stairs at the west end of the building. Now, do you think you stayed longer than 3 minutes up there?Mr. WILLIAMS. I am sure I stayed longer than 3 minutes.Mr. BALL. Do you remember telling the FBI you only stayed 3 minutes up there?Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not remember telling them I only stayed 3 minutes. Williams testified that he could NOT see the "sniper's nest" from his lunch spot on the sixth floor- the boxes were stacked nearly to the top of the window. Mr. DULLES. How much of the room could you see as you finished your lunch there? Was your view obstructed by boxes of books, or could you see a good bit of the sixth floor?Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I couldn't see too much of the sixth floor, because the books at the time were stacked so high. I could see only in the path that I was standing--as I remember, I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building. But just one aisle, the aisle I was standing in I could see just about to the west side of the building. So far as seeing to the east and behind me, I could only see down the aisle behind me and the aisle to the west of me. Yet we know that there were men on the sixth floor within moments of Williams' departure. Were they there before he left? How could they not be? After all, they were conspirators, and their job was to plant the evidence and arrange the scene of the sniper's nest. How hard could it have been for conspirators to act in an officious manner and intimidate a 23-year-old, not very well educated (but observant and maybe quite savvy) black man such as Bonnie Ray Williams in Dallas in 1963? The assassination had not yet happened at that moment, so as far as Williams knew, these men were legitimate - maybe something to do with the president's security team. (Just a guess, but I bet that would have worked before the arrival of the motorcade.) How did these men get to the sixth floor? My guess is by the west freight elevator - the same one used by Jarman and Norman to get to the fifth floor. But remember, the west elevator was the one which could be "called", that is, someone on a different floor (the ground floor, say) could press a button and it would respond. Unlike the east elevator which required the operator to be in the elevator itself. Curiously, Allen Dulles himself nearly let the cat out of the bag when he asked Williams whether the elevators were sufficiently noisy that Williams would have noticed if someone else brought the west elevator to the sixth floor: Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question in connection with your last question? Did you hear either of the elevators going up or down while you were eating your meal?Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I did not.Mr. DULLES. You didn't hear the elevators at all?Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.Mr. DULLES. If an elevator had come to that floor, would you have heard it then?Mr. WILLIAMS. That all depends--Mr. DULLES. Were they noisy elevators? The operation of the doors and so forth?Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. The elevator that I came up on to the sixth floor, if you would listen--say you were listening for the boss, you could hear, because you would be paying attention. The elevator is worked by hand pedal. When you release the hand pedal it makes a noise. It bangs or maybe you can hear the old elevator when it is first coming up. But at that time I did not hear anything. Note that Dulles interrupted Williams just as Williams was about to distinguish between the noise levels of the east and west freight elevators. Dulles did not want Williams to state on the record that the west elevator was quieter and would not necessarily be heard ("That all depends--") Finally, when asked the key question three different times, Williams refused to swear that the west elevator was on the fifth floor when he descended via the east freight elevator from the sixth floor around 12:15: Mr. BALL. The other day, when I talked to you in Dallas, on Friday 20 March--Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.Mr. BALL. And at that time were you able did you remember which elevator it was?Mr. WILLIAMS. Which elevator I had?Mr. BALL. What you had come down from six to five on.Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember, I first said I wasn't sure. After the fellows said they brought the west elevator up, I said I must have the east elevator.Mr. BALL. Is it fair to say now that you don't have any definite memory as to whether it was the east or west elevator?Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I believe that would be true.Mr. BALL. But you did bring an elevator up?Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I did.Mr. BALL. Now, when you came down there and got off that elevator, did you notice that the other elevator was also on that floor?Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I didn't notice it.Mr. BALL. Did you, later? Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; as I remember. Mr. BALL. You don't remember? Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't remember. So, from Williams own testimony, there was no confirmation that the west freight elevator, the one which could be "called" independently, the quiet one, was on the fifth floor just before the assassination. Further, Williams claimed he could not have seen anyone in the sixth-floor southeast corner, and when he was about to explain why he wouldn't have necessarily heard anyone's arrival via the west freight elevator, Allen Dulles cut him off! So yes, Jean Paul, I would say there is a very real possibility men arrived on the sixth floor via the west freight elevator, that Bonnie Ray Williams was smart enough after the fact to tailor his testimony to the emerging "official" narrative, but that he really had seen or heard someone or something on the sixth floor around 12:15.

Well stated, Pat. Harold Weisberg put it simply over 57 years ago: the Warren Commission was a "Whitewash" (thus the title of his series of books.) The crime never was investigated honestly by the proper authorities. Their "solution" was mere sophistry, nothing but political expediency. Blame the dead guy - the "evidence" will never be tested in court. Neither LBJ nor J. Edgar Hoover nor anyone else in Washington D.C. wanted a real investigation. Earl Warren couldn't stomach the idea that powerful forces, accountable to no one had killed JFK. He was, after all, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States, but a finding of conspiracy meant that his whole career paled in comparison to the true (dark) powers in the country. A real investigation would determine that there was a conspiracy, and LBJ and J. Edgar Hoover knew that the fingers of suspicion would be forever pointed at them, regardless of their respective innocence. Same with the Secret Service. Any "solution" beyond a lone nut meant that they had failed in their most basic duty. So, the three bodies most in charge of telling the nation what happened on November 22, 1963 had no incentive to tell the truth, and very powerful incentives to lie. And they did.

Never mind. You and I agree that Sawyer went up the passenger elevator. But do we agree that Dougherty heard some kind of loud noise as soon as he arrived on the fifth floor, and that could not have been a gun shot?

Interesting analysis and could be correct. One question: I thought Shelley and Sawyer went up not on the freight elevator, but the passenger elevator on the east side of the first floor? Have I been wrong about that?

Gene, I was a subscriber to Jerry Rose's "The Third Decade" and to his "The Fourth Decade". I read both of Weston's original articles back then as well as the 2020 follow-up article in "Kennedy's and King." (And I listened to Len Osanic's interview with William Weston on Black Op Radio.) I agree with all those who suspect that the TSBD at 411 Elm was more than a mere schoolbook depository. And, it may well have been a CIA safe site to stash clandestine weapons and drugs, both coming in and out of the country. OK. But on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, how could the conspirators be sure that honest cops/investigators/employees etc. would confine a post-assassination search to only those boxes and areas that were "safe"? Guns and drugs could have been in big boxes before the assassination on the sixth floor, but surely there were not any in the boxes the afternoon of the assassination, were there? After all, the accidental discovery of either rifles or drugs in schoolbook boxes would raise enormous alarm. How could that have been contained? While weapons and/or drugs may have been secretly stored there before the assassination, I think it is very unlikely that any contraband was actually present in any of the big boxes on that Friday afternoon. Too much of a risk. Getting back to our man, Roy Truly, William Manchester wrote that Truly "disapproved strongly of Kennedy's policies abroad and believed he was a "race-mixer" at home." Death of a President, page 49: The Death Of A President : Manchester, William : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Tony, You make a good point, but we do agree that Baker was up on the roof of the TSBD with Truly, right? If so, then I don't see how Baker could have been up there much before 12:35. After all, by the WC's own admission, the (supposed) Baker/"Oswald" confrontation could not have completed before 12:32. Baker and Truly still had to run up three more flights of stairs with a momentary pause on each one as Baker surveyed the immediate area, no matter how briefly. Baker and Truly still had to take the 5th floor elevator to the 7th floor and then ascend to the roof. They then had to surveil the roof, peek over and make a quick check for any possible hiding places, and then leave. Are you saying that was completed before 12:36? How much less time? 12:35, maybe? And if it took more time, then how on his way back down could Baker have run into Sawyer on the 4th floor in time for Sawyer to get back down to his cruiser by 12:40 or so? I still think that Pat Speer's hypothesis is very possible - that the loud noise heard by Dougherty ("backfire") was not a rifle shot but was actually a noise made by Baker and Truly on the roof.

Gene, I too have long been suspicious of William Shelley for all the reasons listed above. However, I doubt that Billy Nolan Lovelady was a witting conspirator. I believe (but I can't prove) that he was naive, gullible and used by Shelley. Lovelady was harassed by unnamed outsiders every day for the rest of his life. How do I know? Because his wife said so and the New York Times quoted her: A Look‐Alike of Oswald Is Reported Dead at 41 - The New York Times (nytimes.com) What is especially curious to me is the man who was the "lawyer who spoke for the family", Kenneth Brooten. Who was Kenneth Brooten? He was the acting chief counsel for the HSCA. (Mr. Lovelady died in Colorado at the age of 41 in January of 1979, just as the HSCA published its findings. No cause of death listed.) Mr. Brooten started his legal career as an assistant to several congressmen between 1962 and 1967. He was an insider. Kenneth Edward Brooten Edit Profile lawyer Kenneth Edward Brooten, American Lawyer. Bar: Florida, District of Columbia, United States District Court (northern, middle and southern districts) Florida, United States.Dist. Court District of Columbia, United States Tax Court, United States Court Appeals (5th, 9th, 11th and District of Columbia circs.), Supreme Court of the United States Court, Trial Counsel Her Majesty's Government of United Kingdom. Assistant to several congressmen, United States House of Representatives, Washington, 1962-1967; administrative assistant, VA Center Office, Washington, 1967; administrative officer, Veterans Administration Hospital., Gainesville, Florida, 1967-1972; partner, Carter & Brooten, P.A., Gainesville, Florida, 1975-1978; partner, Brooten & Fleisher, Chartered, Washington and Gainesville, Florida, 1978-1980; private practice,, Washington and Gainesville, 1980-1986; private practice,, Washington, 1987-1988; private practice,, Washington and Orlando, Florida, 1988-1991; private practice,, Washington and Winter Park, Florida, since 1991. Permanent special counsel, acting chief counsel, director Select Committee Assassinations United States House of Representatives, 1976-1977. Counsel Her Majesty's Government of United Kingdom (in the United States). So why was a powerful bigwig speaking on behalf of the family of a nobody, reassuring the world through the NYT that there was nothing else to ask of or say about Billy Lovelady? Did Mr. Lovelady's untimely demise have anything to do with whatever he saw back in 1963?

Dougherty's testimony is full of contradictions and oddities. He comes off as a simple, easily confused man. But what is curious is this exchange between Ball and Dougherty: Mr. Ball: Did you see any strangers in the building that day? Mr. Dougherty: No, sir. Mr. Ball: Did you ever see Lee Oswald carry any sort of large package? Mr. Dougherty: Well, I didn't, but some of the fellows said they did. Mr. Ball: Who said that? Mr. Dougherty: Well, Bill Shelley, he told me that he thought he saw him carrying a fairy good-sized package. Mr. Ball: When did Shelley tell you that? Mr. Dougherty: Well, it was - the day after it happened. Tony, since Ball had yet to depose Shelley, one might think that an honest investigator would ask a witness to confirm or refute an alleged statement indicating the possible guilt of "Oswald." But, for reasons I've previously explained, Ball neither would nor could ask Shelley about it. (It was a lie, Ball knew it was a lie, and if Shelley then lied about it under oath, not only would Shelley have perjured himself, but Ball might be guilty of suborning perjury. No, Balls only possible solution was to ignore Dougherty's statement and ask Shelley nothing about it. So that's exactly what Ball did. Nothing.) Why did Shelley lie to Dougherty? Because Dougherty needed to be "convinced" of "Oswald's" guilt. Especially if Dougherty had accidentally witnessed the escape of one of the conspirators from the upper floors.

Tony, I am not so sure about that. You may be right but if the "backfire" heard by Dougherty (and assumed by the FBI the DPD, the Warren Commission and everyone else to be a shot) was really made by Baker and Truly on the roof, then the timing might work. I don't think Baker and Truly could have arrived on the roof before 12:35. If they spent a minute or so poking their heads over the wall and looking around, then a loud "bang" at 12:36/37 seems plausible to me. Whatever else Dougherty was, he was adamant about his own location when he heard the mysterious noise - he was just west of the 5th floor freight elevator. A loud bang at that time seems to fit the probable movements of Baker and Truly. Pat is correct that much of this should have been cleared up decades ago, but we all know that the authorities were determined NOT to investigate. Instead, they had to reach the only politically acceptable "solution", namely LHO did it all by himself for reasons known solely to him. Evidence be damned.

Pat, This is a little off topic but: I suspect you have already thought this through, but if (as you've speculated elsewhere) Shelley and Lovelady arrived back in the TSBD from the west entrance within a minute or so and if they saw Eddie Piper walking from the front toward the middle of the first floor, then isn't it possible that Baker and Truly did not arrive back at the freight elevators quite as quickly as we've been led to believe? (I'm not suggesting the Baker/Truly timeline is grossly in error here, merely that it may be a little longer, perhaps because it is incomplete.)

"Retarded" is not the way Truly put it. But clearly Truly wanted to convey that all was not quite right with Dougherty. Why? Well, if (IF) Dougherty really did come face-to-face with an escaping assassin on the first floor when the west freight elevator opened (before Dougherty went back upstairs), then Dougherty's credibility would need massaging. Especially since Dougherty told Ball in his WC testimony that Shelley told Dougherty that Shelley had seen "Oswald" that morning with a large package in his hands. Of course, no one ever saw "Oswald" with a large package - Shelley lied to Dougherty. And the kicker is that when Ball questioned Shelley later, Ball DID NOT ASK SHELLEY ONE THING ABOUT THAT SHELLEY'S LIE TO DOUGHERTY! So Joe, tell me: why did Shelley lie to Dougherty and why didn't Ball dare ask about that lie? Here is Roy Truly's sworn description about Dougherty: Mr. BELIN. Could you tell us a little bit about Jack Dougherty?Mr. TRULY. Jack Dougherty has been working for us 12 or 14 years. Until we moved into this building, he has been mostly in our State Department, the building at 1917 North Houston. He would fill orders for--that called for many cartons of books on a three-textbook-order basis to the various schools in Texas. And he seemed to be intelligent and smart and a hard worker. The main thing is he just worked all the time.I have never had any occasion to have any hard words for Jack. A few times he would get a little bit---maybe do a little something wrong, and I would mention it to him, and he would just go to pieces--not anything--but anything the rest of the day or the next day would not be right. [Deletion.] He is a great big husky fellow. I think he is 39 years old. He has never been married. He has no interest in women. He gets flustered, has a small word for it, at times. He has never had any trouble. He is a good, loyal, hardworking employee. He always has been.Mr. BELIN. Would you _consider him of average intelligence?Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. I think what is wrong with him mostly is his emotional makeup. I would say that for the work he is doing, he is of average intelligence. Here is Dougherty's own testimony to the Warren Commission. Note how disjointed and confused Dougherty is about even the simplest things. It's worth reading in full: History Matters Archive - Warren Commission Hearings, Volume VI, pg (history-matters.com)

Well done, Gil. Thanks for posting.