Steve Roe
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Posts posted by Steve Roe
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I have some selective memories of the weekend of the assassination as a kid. We did not see the Ruby shooting live on TV because we were at church. Service was breaking up and of course the Kennedy Assassination was the big topic among people. One of the members went out to smoke a cigarette in the parking lot and was in his car listening to the radio of the coverage. He then rushed in and told everybody Oswald got shot. Naturally in those days, folks went out to their cars and listened in to the radio to hear the news. I was standing outside my uncle's Chrysler while he dialed in the radio listening to the breaking news. Everyone of course was shocked by the news.
I did see a couple of Dallas Police cars racing up Industrial Blvd towards Parkland while milling around the parking lot, sirens on. Just not sure where we went after church, probably back to my uncle's house in South Oak Cliff to have Sunday lunch and watch TV. Later that afternoon, early evening around dusk, we jumped into my uncle's car and went downtown to view the TSBD. My uncle went down Pacific Avenue and got as far as Pacific/Houston (rear of the TSBD). We couldn't get onto Elm Street and drive in front of the TSBD due to a Police blockade. The traffic around whole area around the TSBD was bad, almost to a standstill with cops directing traffic. My uncle gave up and drove home.
Pretty surreal weekend.
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Greg, I have to correct myself here. My ID of John Timonthy Martin was wrong. Tom Scully has the correct ID with another John T. Martin from St. Paul, MN.
Both Scully's and my Martin were both too young to be in General Walker's 24th Infantry in Germany.
The fact remains, it was a coincidence that John T. Martin captured General Walker and Oswald on the same film.
I acknowledge the correction on my original article.
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15 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:
Steve you are right--I checked with Stephen Fagin of the Sixth Floor Museum and he confirms that John T. Martin worked with then-curator Gary Mack in the Museum's obtaining the film in 2007, and that John T. Martin was alive in 2007.
The Minneapolis Timmons who used the same name and died 1997 therefore is not him.
Is it possible your John T. Martin was in the military but post-1963 not under Walker, and the "Walker" was an error introduced by Schoener (perhaps caused by association with John T. Martin being in the "Minutemen" or the 1963 trip to Dallas to visit Walker himself?--easy error to make?) That would set up this relative sequence which would at least make sense: (a) Minutemen involvement; (b) Aug 1963 trip to Texas/La. to visit Walker; (c) military service; (d) becomes pacifist and exits both military and Minutemen; (e) meets Weisberg and Schoener and gives film.
With that reconstruction your John T. Martin, the son of the Swedish Lutheran pastor family, would work chronologically provided the 17 years of age Minutemen card could reflect 1961 as you suggest (no need to propose typos or intentional giving of wrong age).
Greg, you scooped me. I was going to contact Mr. Fagin as well, but you beat me to it. Anyway, good work on the confirmation. Your honesty is noteworthy and refreshing (I wish others would follow your example).
Regarding John T. Martin, it's possible that he may have been in the service post 1963. I haven't put in any effort to check that out.
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On 3/5/2023 at 11:52 AM, Greg Doudna said:
I'm going to stick my neck out here--based on how strong my hunch is I have the right guy with Timmons who d. 1997--that there is not confirmation that the donation year of 2007 means John T. Martin the filmmaker was the one personally who did that donation in 1997 or who made that condition with Gary Mack, or any other evidence John T. Martin the filmmaker was alive or anyone spoke to him after 1997. Prove me wrong Steve? 🙂
Well, if Gary Mack was still alive, then this would be a short conversation.
As per what I cited by the 6FM, Martin says the film now in the Museum’s collection is the film the FBI returned to him in 1964, but inspection shows the film’s date code shows 1977.
That means Gary Mack had talked to him or had correspondence. From personal experience dealing with the 6FM staff, they just don't accept anything without provenance. As you can see, they checked the film out closely. I'm sure Gary Mack did his homework and wouldn't accept something as important as a historical JFK film without checking the source.
My John T. Martin was still alive in 2007 (confirmed myself).
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14 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:
I am willing to be shown wrong on this but I do not follow that as a decisive point.
Greg, I always enjoy a good research discussion. I'll make a couple of points here.
1. The Minutemen Index membership card could have been from 1961. DePugh's organization was in existence then.
2. As per your Find-A-Grave on Timmons, it shows he died on May 26, 1997. I confirmed that is correct in a couple of newspaper Obit columns. However, the John T. Martin film was donated to the 6FM in 2007. The 6FM catalogs their collections with the year donated, followed by an item number. In this case the 6FM catalog number for the John T. Martin film is 2007.028.0001. You can check other 6FM collections and see the years that it was entered into the museum. (Link below)
Now something interesting about the John T. Martin film that I have overlooked, it's not the original. From the 6FM description:
Further inspection reveals that the film is not the original, but a copy of a copy, which may account for the poor quality of its images. Martin says the film now in the Museum’s collection is the film the FBI returned to him in 1964, but inspection shows the film’s date code shows 1977. The film was borrowed by the House Select Committee on Assassinations in the late 1970s and its records are stored at the National Archives (NARA) in College Park, MD. According to NARA, the Martin film is not among those records.
I wonder who has the original? This reminds me of the Nix film shenanigans.
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11 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:
But I do think I have here identified the Minneapolis filmmaker, and the issue of his age is resolved. Minor steps, but at least that little progress.
Greg, I of course disagree with that. There are other items of John Timothy Martin I did not include in my article.
Before I get into that, why Martin John Timmons? What makes you suspect that, other than the age? Do you have any proof that Martin John Timmons was in the U.S. Army 24th Infantry? Maybe you have other evidence to support your argument?
Unfortunately, I can't post pictures of this newspaper article of the marriage license notice, so I will transcribe it. Source: Star Tribune (Minneapolis) July 8, 1966
John T. Martin, 22, County Road 82, W. End St., Excelsior; Jerilyn N. Miller, 23, 6820 Pillsbury Av. S. Richfield
That would make John T. Martin born somewhere around 1944, too young to join General Walker's 24th Infantry Army. Remember Walker was relieved of his command in 1961. I believe Schoener's memory was not correct. He admitted it was many years ago.
I find it a huge stretch that the FBI would not check Martin's (or your Timmons) identification before filing their report.
Now to back up the film footage, taken on a family vacation: Reverend J. Orville Martin was John's father. He was a Lutheran minister who moved to Minnesota around 1958 from California. His family ancestors were Swedish, and J. Orville spoke the language. Again, another newspaper article from the Minneapolis Star on September 7, 1963:
The Reverend J. Orville Martin, pastor, Mount Calvery Lutheran, Excelsior: "Visiting Sweden the ancestral parishes in Sweden which our relatives attended before coming to this country. We stood in pulpits from which three generations of our people heard had the word of God preached and we took film of baptisteries and altars where they received the sacraments.
That sounds like a family trip, taking film footage, and would coincide with the Martin's family trip to Dallas, New Orleans (August 9, 1963) and eventually over to Sweden.
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1 hour ago, Pat Speer said:
Okay. How do we know this?
I mean, if a tourist came forward with footage of Osama Bin Laden, on the same role of film as the Twin Towers, one would have to be suspicious, right?
Well, I agree it does look suspicious on the surface. I looked into this sometime time ago.
It's better explained here: https://steveroeconsulting.wixsite.com/website/post/did-general-edwin-walker-plot-to-kill-president-kennedy
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15 hours ago, Pat Speer said:
Yes, it's a bit crazy. When I first got into this I was astounded that Ruby and Oswald both had connections to Vincent Lee. It turned out there were two. I was also confused as heck by the two Richard Spragues--BOTH of whom worked for the HSCA.
It's good, moreover, that you recognize the potential pearl in this deep dive: John T Martin. Some of the mucky-mucks are looking into him as his filming the Walker house and Oswald in New Orleans on the same roll of film seems WAY too big a coincidence.
Pat, it was a coincidence. There's no doubt about it. (John T. Martin)
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On 2/15/2023 at 6:53 PM, Tom Gram said:
There plenty of evidence suggesting DPD involvement in Oswald murder, so Fritz glancing in Ruby’s direction and his subsequent (non)reaction doesn’t exactly work in his favor here.
Plenty of evidence that DPD, or members thereof were involved in Oswald's murder? Seriously?????
Calling major baloney on that!
Tom show everyone here the provable evidence for that statement. Not your speculation, evidence please.
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Fred Litwin responds to Matt Douthit's silly book review.
https://www.onthetrailofdelusion.com/post/james-dieugenio-s-deflector-shields
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1 hour ago, Charles Blackmon said:
Thats how you disprove the brain evidence is by laughing at it and comparing it to a fifties sci-fi? O-K but the rest of us prefer using critical thinking.
Charles, the brain was prepared in formalin and weighed one week later. That's critical thinking, not black pajama ninja brain snatchers substituting someone's brain for the President's. Usually, the brain is weighed at the time of the autopsy before formalin prep, in this case it was not. There's no hocus pocus Bethesda conspirators doing a brain swap-a-roo.
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Somebody forgot Warren Reynolds.
WARREN REYNOLDS, part owner, Johnny Reynolds Used Car Lot, 500 Jefferson Street, Dallas, advised on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, while sitting in his office, he had observed an individual running south on Patton Avenue toward Jefferson Street and then walking at a fast rate of speed west on Jefferson. As the individual was running down Patton Avenue, he had a pistol or an automatic in his possession and was apparently attempting to conceal same in his belt while he was running. REYNOLDS advised he had previously heard shots coming from the area of Tenth and Patton Streets and, thinking that possibly a marital argument had occurred and a shooting had taken place, he attempted to follow the individual in order that he could inform the Dallas Police Department of the individual's location.
He advised he stayed at a safe distance behind the individual and last observed the individual to turn north by the Ballew Texaco Service Station, and from this point he did not again observe the individual. He advised he made inquiry at Ballew's Texaco Service Station, and they informed him the individual had gone through the parking lot.
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17 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:
Well, here are two (from just a quick glance at Matt's hit piece)....
1.) Fred Litwin never implied that O.P. Wright gave CE399 to SS Agent Richard Johnsen at 7:30 PM. That's absurd. The 7:30 time comes from Johnsen's memo that he wrote after he returned to the White House on 11/22. Johnsen wrote that memo at 7:30. That's the "7:30" that Fred Litwin is referring to in his book. Matt really blew that one in his book review.
2.) And Fred is certainly correct when he says that John Connally's account of the shooting generally supports the SBT. And that's mainly because all reasonable people know that John Connally is just about the WORST EYEwitness in Dealey Plaza when it comes to the question of: Did the first shot hit JFK? John B. Connally could not possibly have answered that knowledgeably question....because he never saw JFK during the operative timeframe. Why CTers ignore that basic fact is beyond me.
Yep David, the 7:30 was a mega-blunder and certainly Connally.
And of course, Douhit (really DiEugenio), brings up the goofiest conspiracy theory of all, the "INVASION OF THE BRAIN SNATCHERS".
The palmprint lift is very entertaining! These guys have no idea what they are talking about.
What Douhit and DiEugenio just did, was to embarrass themselves to no end with this silly article (rant).
Too late, they own it now!
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16 minutes ago, Vince Palamara said:
Oh for goodness sakes. It's a rant, not a review. So many blunders in that article, it's outright embarrassing.
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In a private conversation with Paul Gregory and two other researchers, we asked Mr. Gregory about Oswald's Russian language abilities. He remarked that Oswald spoke good passable Russian. One could characterize it as "good conversational Russian". Naturally if you live in another country for some time, you are immersed in the language of the people which forces you to learn and understand.
However, Mr. Gregory did state that Oswald's Russian grammar/spelling was extremely terrible and unrecognizable.
Just a reminder that Langley and the Monterey School of Languages Russian classes are not reliable for planting false defectors for Patsy Boys like Oswald.
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22 hours ago, Michael Kalin said:
Reminder of this thread's theme: "Two of the Warren Commission's key witnesses to the murder of Dallas Police officer J.D. Tippit, Helen Markham and Ted Callaway, give completely different descriptions of the route the murderer took after the killing, the clothing he was wearing and his physical description. Which one is correct?"
1. Markham's description of the route should receive the recognition it deserves for standing on solid ground and Callaway's dismissed because of contradiction by other evidence and general lack of support.
2. Callaway doesn't have a leg to stand on. Markham has many.
3. Markham saw Tippit's killer flee via the alley from Patton to Crawford after crossing Patton at Tenth because that's the way he went.
4. Callaway did not see Tippit's killer flee via Patton to the NW corner of Jefferson because he didn't go that way (see #3).
5. Markham's description is correct.
6. Callaway's description is incorrect (see #5).What alleyway are you referring to? There is one alley (west side of Patton) just north of Jefferson behind the shops/stores and Texaco station. Or are you saying the alleyway behind the 10th street homes on the east side of Patton?
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Johnny Brewer deserves a Congressional Medal of Honor for helping in the arrest of the murderer Oswald. Who knows how many more people he would have killed evading arrest. He almost got McDonald in the Texas.
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21 hours ago, Ron Ege said:
More on Brewer's "friends":
Any validity to them being Igor Vaganov and/or Richard Radalat/Radelet? Dunno.
Anyone?
Naw, those ROKC soldiers imagine all kinds of whacky stuff. Ask them about Oswald never lived in the Beckley Rooming house.
Brewer states in his 6fm oral history that the 2 IBM guys were part time workers on the weekend. As Ian Griggs article mentions, Johnny Brewer was working by himself on that day.
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On 2/4/2023 at 11:02 PM, Ron Bulman said:
Who were the two men in his shoe shop, from IBM that he left in charge of it that closed it down for him?
I can tell you who these "IBM" men were, but first where are you getting this info about sinister IBM guys?
I'm not saying you believe it, but rather where did this information come from?
I'm trying to pinpoint the source of this IBM mystery men.
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12 hours ago, Lance Payette said:
I find that all this cuts pretty decisively against the “false defector, CIA operative” narrative.
Lance that was an excellent post on the highly questionable "false or witting defector" theory.
I'd like to add to that, Oswald was fighting his USMC "undesirable discharge" while in Russia. As we know he kept appealing it when he returned back to the States. Also, Oswald had to pay back his State Department loan of $400+, which he did.
Apparently, the CIA or whatever Intelligence organization just couldn't find the time to help Oswald out in service to this country.
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17 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:
Now wait a minute mi amigo Steve.
You do know that Rapheal Cruz Sr. was living in New Orleans the summer of 1963 as Oswald was doing his thing there?
He had moved there from the Dallas area where he was extremely active in expatriate Cuban groups and spoke many times to them and other groups trying to raise funds for their causes.
He talked often about his fighting Castro forces and his life and death dangerous escape from the island with no money and how he went on to get a college degree in Texas.
So, he is very active in anti-Castro political group meetings in Dallas.
He then moves to a city which is one of the two most heavily populated and hot-headed Castro hating and Castro overthrow planning ones in America. Miami being the other.
And he goes completely dark there? He doesn't get involved with any of the leading anti-Castro groups and their leaders such as Carlos Bringuier?
Politically active Cruz Sr. read the New Orleans papers. He watched New Orleans TV. There is no way that he didn't hear about, read about or see the news reports of the Oswald/Bringuier dust-up in broad daylight downtown New Orleans.
I sense Cruz Sr. had some contact with the lettered agencies. His "hot spot" activities in Cuba and later in Dallas would have crossed their paths for sure.
I've looked at the Trade Mart Oswald flier passing photos many times. Oswald had helpers there with him. And some very strange looking other characters were milling around with them as well.
In my opinion there is a very thin build white Cuban looking fellow ( as Cruz Sr. was ) with Oswald that looks like a young Cruz Sr.
And remember, Cruz Sr. was the same age as Oswald.
And there is even a white Caucasian looking fellow with an Everly Brother's pronounced pompadour hair style in at least one of those photo's who looks very much like the Texas School Book Depository supervisor Bill Shelley...again in my opinion.
I know you are being facetious and making a joke but be careful some members might take this seriously.
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Well, we all know Roger Stone wrote a god-awful book blaming LBJ. Stone doesn't know that much. Heck, I saw him a few years back in a debate with Gerald Posner and somebody else and claim Judyth Baker was in the Warren Commission report.
Now it's possible that Trump tipped him off and appears now Judge Napolitano is claiming some silly stuff about it also. Add to that the outright falsehood Trump claimed about Ted Cruz's father.
It's all baloney.
I seriously doubt Carlson will disclose his source. This has cycled out of the news for the most part now.
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Recently I listened to Doug Campbell and Rob Clark's Quick Hits podcast. I should say Doug Campbell and I probably disagree on 90% of JFK stuff. However, I do enjoy listening to their podcasts (Quick Hits, Lone Gunman, Dallas Action) even though I disagree. Both Campbell and Clark have done some good debunking on conspiracy myths in the past. One of the best ones was the Fletcher Prouty myth which Campbell/Clark decimated into a thousand pieces. Yes, LNer's can agree with Conspiracy folks on certain topics.
Now Doug Campbell has another interesting possible myth breaker, the Tucker Carlson "source" of recent discussion. I believe this one has good merit as he makes a compelling argument in the recent Quick Hits podcast. I'm not all that interested in Carlson's claims, as I believe it is phony baloney. Evidently so does Doug Campbell.
I'll let you make up your own mind.
At the 88:00-minute mark, is the discussion of Tucker Carlson. It goes on for some time, and to get the full grasp of the argument, you should listen to it in entirety. You will hear how Carlson flubbed the Watergate "Who Shot John" and the possible connection to Roger Stone. Carlson on Fox has defended the huckster Roger Stone for some time, and it doesn't surprise one bit if Carlson's source was Stone, the dirty trickster. You could decide for yourself if Campbell got it right.
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15 minutes ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:
You guys know this of course, I did not : "In the late 1980s, Groden was a consultant for Oliver Stone's 1991 film JFK,[3] even appearing in two brief cameo roles: as a Parkland doctor working to save the President and as the courtroom projectionist showing the Zapruder film during the Clay Shaw trial in New Orleans (Stone, 2000)".
Groden had almost fooled me with his fake BYP without LHO (pictured in his photographic book)
I like Stone, but I sure don't like Groden...
That is true.
How Many Forum Members And Visitors actually watched Jack Ruby Shoot Oswald On Live National TV?
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
Joe, the TSBD building was familiar to us. About 2 times a week we would go down Stemmons and pass by the building and see the Hertz sign on top with the time displayed as well as the Cabana Club Hotel off Stemmons. Couldn't miss them.
Occasionally we would drive down Lemon Avenue and go past Oak Lawn. I remember seeing Ruby's Vegas Club on Oak Lawn. It had some sort of Marquee out front, either a pair of dice or cards. Been looking for a photo of it to refresh my memory. Haven't found one yet.
My mother was a part time RN at Parkland. She was not on duty during that weekend. She knew a bunch of those doctors and nurses as she would occasionally get pulled from her area to work Emergency at times.