Bill Fite
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Posts posted by Bill Fite
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6 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:
I was thinking the same thing.
Planted bullets?
or 1 falls out of the back wound and 1 falls from the skull wound or wounds.
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And there's another bullet found in the car according to Navy Dr James Young:
from Dr. Young's letter to then president G Ford:
QuoteMy particular problem is a description of what occurred at the autopsy. During the autopsy examination, Dr. Jim Humes, then the Chief of Pathology at Bethesda Naval Hospital, and two other pathologists stated that some pieces of President Kennedy’s skull bones were missing. In order to reconstruct the President’s head for burial, Dr. Humes wanted to find those pieces which were missing. Dr. Burkley and I requested two of our corpsmen who were assigned to our White House medical unit, to go to the Executive Office Building where the Secret Service had placed the “Queen Mary,” [sic] the open convertible in which President Kennedy had been shot, for bone fragments.
Two of the corpsmen left and returned sometime later with three varying sized pieces of President Kennedy’s skull bones. In addition, they brought back in an envelope a spent misshapen bullet which they had found on the back floor of the “Queen Mary”[sic] where they had found the pieces of skull bones. The bullet and pieces of skull were given to Dr. Jim Humes.
I have never seen anything written about that spent bullet in the Warren Report or elsewhere. Do you recall any testimony or comments which would clarify my concerns?
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20 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:
I cannot see it.
But I always have to ask this question: What dynasty?
If a guy is president for less than three years, how is that a dynasty? I mean outside of Joan Collins.
The whole point of this forum and this area of exploration is that its pretty clear the the Powers That Be did not want a dynasty and took lethal measures to be sure it would not happen.
Hi - the last day on Arte was yesterday.
The main idea of the 'dynasty' was that family dynasties last for only 3 generations. So from JFK / RFK siblings back 2 generations to their grandparents. The 4th generation isn't part of it and goes off in their own directions. The Bush family was brought up as another example.
So the documentary follows those 3 generations - primarily focusing on the last set of siblings. It was pretty interesting and covered a lot of history that I didn't know. JFK's first trip to Ireland to the family house & was really quite informative about Eunice and her contributions to handicap rights and the special olympics. Had quite a lot of info about the sisters and their lives.
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I just watched The Kennedy Dynasty on Arte. The credits say that it is a German documentary from 2023.
QuoteThe mighty American political dynasty played a major role in twentieth century America. This is the story of nine siblings who lived truly remarkable lives touched by greatness as well as tragedy.
I found it a very interesting 90 minutes.
Here's the link, if anyone is interested, to it on Arte.tv (the Franco German cultural channel). Unfortunately, this is the last day it's available and if you are in the US you will probably need a VPN connection to watch it. It is in English by the way.
https://www.arte.tv/en/videos/112560-000-A/the-kennedy-dynasty/
It covers the 3 generations from JFK's grandparents to his siblings.
Interestingly, it's not JFK who is given most credit for lasting changes in the end.
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1 hour ago, Tom Gram said:
Basically, I’m curious if there exists a perfect combination of variables that can reconcile the WC head shot scenario with the extant medical evidence. You’ve shown conclusively that JFK’s head wounds are not in any way typical of FMJ rifle shots to the head, including shots from the same rifle and ammo, but there’s a big difference between improbable and flat out impossible.
It's that improbable part that is the key. It's interesting when you start to think about it this way.
Lone assassin theorists look at each event that would occur in isolation then claim that the event discussed - no matter how improbable is possible without looking at the probability of the event.
If you start with the single assassin assumption and then put together the string of probabilities - some estimated experimentally & some estimated subjectively if experimental evidence isn't available - you get an estimate of the probability of a lone gunman.
The probabilities for each event that has to occur for the lone gunman hypothesis not to be rejected are multiplied together if they are independent events to get the final probability estimate.
To test the hypothesis of a lone assassin you would set it up as a test of the null hypothesis that a lone assassin murdered JFK against the alternative hypothesis that 2 or more were involved. The probability estimate is then used to see if you have enough evidence to reject the null hypo.
So starting with the head wound under discussion - assuming atypical as a 1 in 10 chance - the probability of a lone gunman in 0.1.
100 MC rounds were fired into goat carcasses & cadaver wrist bones all were more significantly deformed than the magic bullet. So, 1 in 100 would be a conservative probability estimate for this event.
p(lone gunman) = 0.1 * 0.01 = 0.001
Add in a subjective probability for gunman going down steps in TSBD w/o detection on stairs by other employees of 0.5 -- 50 50 chance.
p(lone gunman) = 0.001 * 0.5 = 0.0005
Add in the probability of the shooter getting off the 3 shots in the allotted time and hitting the target from the CBS recreation of 2 out of 13.
p(lone gunman) = 0.0005 * 2 / 13 = 0.0000769 or about 1 in 13,000.
etc...
Which would lead to a rejection of the null hypothesis of a lone gunman for most.
There is, of course, some evidence that by itself would disprove the lone gunman hypothesis if accepted.
If one is discussing this with a LN supporter, it would be interesting to get their subjective probabilities for a list of independent events that would have to happen for the hypothesis test and compute the probability which can also be thought of as an estimate for their belief in the LN theory.
Apologies for the aside.
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17 hours ago, Micah Mileto said:
Thanks - but doesn't the exit on the torso being far lower than on the face sheet actually provide more evidence that the assumption / hypothesis of a lone gunman on the 6th floor TSBD being false?
If the height of the window, distance, and position of the target are close to being correct an exit wound in the chest area falsifies that assumption.
Or am I missing something?
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2 hours ago, Micah Mileto said:
Beyond the Magic Bullet had incorrect geometry.
What was at fault in the setup?
Seems like the Aussies and the Discovery Channel would have checked, double checked and triple checked.
But - still it would be better to assume a lone assassin in the TSBD window and then use experimental recreations of all the events that would have had to happened.
I think filmed experiments would be more effective than articles or mock trials.
I think it would be an easy assumption / hypothesis to reject.
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6 hours ago, Mervyn Hagger said:
What is missing from this work is any reference to Occam's Razor and the notion that "the simplest explanation is preferable to one that is more complex."
I
Shouldn't it be "the simplest explanation that agrees with all the evidence is preferable to one that is more complex."?
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On 7/21/2021 at 4:13 PM, Micah Mileto said:
Not necessary? Scientifically proving a conspiracy in the JFK assassination would be a big deal! Is there any way somebody could make money off of that - investing all of their money on commissioning separate, independent 3D models of Dealey Plaza? Any potential prizes involved?
I think that mock trials and articles only go so far.
To create momentum a TV special with experiments & measurements showing the impossibilities / extremely low probabilities of some of the WC evidence would work better.
For example - the 'Beyond the Magic Bullet' program on the Discovery channel illustrated the impossibility of the magic bullet shot exiting the throat.
Others that could be used include:
* NAA tests on paraffin from the cheeks of subjects who fired the MC rifle or an MC and comparing those results with LHO's paraffin NAA test.
* Firing 100 rounds of MC ammunition through goat carcasses or the like, then measure the deformities and compare to CE 399.
* etc.
Also - I don't think the approach should be to prove a conspiracy but rather to reject the hypothesis that the JFK's murder was the work of a lone assassin. (Scientific method).
Anyway, my 2$ worth (used to be 2 cents... but inflation.)
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On 7/27/2023 at 3:15 PM, Michael Griffith said:
we did indeed effectively have the war won in 1970 (and 1971) in South Vietnam.
I was 18 then.
Did I miss the victory parades?
When exactly did N Vietnam & the Vietcong surrender?
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58 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:
April 1936
Who would sit in a box with Hitler in 1936?
And then LBJ appoints McCloy to the WC? After McCloy had set many Nazis free?
You can't make this stuff up.
If the only Nazi McCloy set free was Barbie - that alone would be 1 too many. Barbie was responsible for the torturing and death of Jean Moulin, hero of the French resistance among others.
Then to recommend Ghelan as the head of W Germany's secret service.
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I've often wondered about McCloy due to his attending the 1936 Berlin Olympics as a guest.
So back to McCloy - according to: https://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread754325/pg1
- McCloy continued to specialize in German cases and in 1936 Mccloy traveled to Berlin where he had a meeting with Rudolf Hess. This was followed by McCloy sharing a box with with Adolf Hitler and Herman Goering at the Berlin Olympics. McCloy's law firm also represented I.G. Farben and its affiliates during this period. Note: at the time I.G Farben was 4th LARGEST company in the world. It was also absolutely vital for German war-machine.
Second World War - working in the FDR admin
On April 22, 1941, he was made Assistant Secretary of War but held only civilian responsibilities, especially the purchase of war materials for the Army, Lend Lease, the draft, and issues of intelligence and sabotage.[10] Once the war started, McCloy was a crucial voice in setting US military priorities and played a key role in several notable decisions. (Wiki)
From the original link:
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In first year's McCloy strongly backed up Congressman Leland M. Ford of Los Angeles who had called for "all Japanese, whether citizens or not, be placed in inland concentration camps". The record shows that he ignored F.B.I. and naval intelligence reports that backed Japanese-American loyalty, and kept these reports from the Supreme Court. Army officials urged in early 1944 that McCloy end the internment, but he cited "political rather than military" reasons for extending it another eight months. source NYT
Thats when he said famous words "The Constitution is just a scrap of paper." - Before the Presidential commission in 1981, he defended the internment as "retribution" for the Pearl Harbor attack.
- McCloy blocked efforts to stop Standard Oil from ceasing shipments of strategic materials to Nazi Germany on the grounds that it would 'hinder the war effort'. I.G. Farben was second biggest stockholder of Standard Oil. They were also all clients or employers of McCloy (so will Ford Company in future).
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On 29th June, 1944, the 32-page Vrba-Wetzler (escapees from Auschwitz) Report was sent to John McCloy. Attached to it was a note requesting the bombing of vital sections of the rail lines that transported the Jews to Auschwitz. McCloy investigated the request and then told his personal aide, Colonel Al Gerhardt, to "kill" the matter.
McCloy received several requests to take military action against the death camps. He always sent the following letter: "The War Department is of the opinion that the suggested air operation is impracticable. It could be executed only by the diversion of considerable air support essential to the success of our forces now engaged in decisive operations and would in any case be of such very doubtful efficacy that it would not amount to a practical project."
Post War
- McCloy immediatily after war was invited by Nelson Rockefeller to join the family law firm. He accepted the offer and the firm became known as Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy . The law firm's most important client was the Rockefeller family's bank, and Chase National.
- in 1949 he replaced Lucius Clay, as High Commissioner for Germany, he was back on familiar grounds with nearly dictatorial power.
- He was person mainly responsible for letting nazi Lyon's overseer Klaus Barbie, known from his sadistic interrogations he was often performing himself.
- In March 1950, McCloy was given the task of appointing a new head of the West German Secret Service. After discussing the matter with Frank Wisner of the CIA, McCloy decided on Reinhard Gehlen, the Nazi war criminal.
- 1950 McCloy began process of releasing people convicted in Nurymberg Trials, all for very serious crimes, all also connected to McCloy and people he represented. That was absolute violation of any given international law. First to go were Alfried Kruppe (fromKruppe AG ) and Friedrich Flick, both convicted for crimes against humanity, plunder and slave labour.
- In October 1950, he commuted the five-year sentence of Baron Ernst von Weizsacker, who as a Nazi Foreign Office official had been convicted of complicity in the deportation of some six thousand Jews from France to Poland. In January of the following year, McCloy announced that five of the fifteen death sentences from the Nuremburg judgements would be carried out. He then reduced the sentences of sixty four of the remaining seventy four war criminals. One third of these were to be released immediately. He also reduced the sentences of all the remaining convicted doctors who had experimented on concentration camp inmates.
- After leaving Germany in 1953 McCloy became chairman of the Chase National (1953-60) and the Ford Foundation (1958-65).
- Then in 1956 McCloy participated in removing federal price control over natural gas. Thanks to Lyndon B. Johnson, huge advocate of Rockefellers interests already bill was pushed through, with participation of Sam Rayburn, but Eisenhower vetoed it and harshly criticized.
- In 1961, he was President Kennedy's chief disarmament adviser and negotiator.
Warren Commission:
- In 1961, he was President Kennedy's chief disarmament adviser and negotiator. He was chairman of the General Advisory Committee on Disarmament of the United States Arms Control and Disarmament Agency for next 12 years in matter of fact.
- After president Kennedy was assasinated in Dallas, Lyndon B. Johnson discusses on telephone including John McCloy into newly formed investigation commision with J. Edgar Hoover. Hoover is sceptic, he points out he might be able to seek publicity. Here's recording of a conversation:
- Now, this recording was what really stirred (the author's) interest in John McCloy initially. First of all, Hoover worrying about public opinion on such a matter? Secondly, nothing in McCloy's career would even indicates it, opposite, McCloy was deeply involved in intelligence operations in past and high-up in Rockefeller's empire, little known to public really, which suited him well. So I found this rather suspicious.
- But only thread (the author) found was this: In 50's McCloys lawyer's company aquired a client, the Nobel oil firm, whose interests in Czarist Russia had been managed by the father of George de Mohrenschildt, Lee and Marina Oswald's "best friend" in Dallas. Nobel Oil is still existing vast corporation, focused on drillings in Russia.
- Interestingly McCloy DID NOT believe in theory of lone-gunman. At least that's what he expressed in conversation with his away, he also thought it was suspicious how swiftly Oswald got back into country after defecting. McCloy openly said to his wife that he had heard “a very realistic rumor” that Oswald was not a genuine defector and that he was sent to the Soviet Union by the CIA.
There are links to articles at the original link. I have not chased them down. But I thought this was interesting enough to post.
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On 6/16/2023 at 10:14 PM, Joe Bauer said:
Even if it was a bag...it had to be taped...right?
Yes that's another good question that as far as I know wasn't asked of Frazier:
Was the bag Oswald had that morning taped?
Given that he said it was like a normal supermarket bag, it's easy to see why it wasn't asked.
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Ever wonder - IF the bag in question - was used to transport the rifle:
How & when did LHO get the bag to the Paine house?
Was Frazier questioned about this? Did you see Oswald take a bag from work to the Paine's when you gave him the ride home?
What about the vigilant Mrs Paine - was she asked if she ever saw a bag like the one in question in her house or garage?
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I remember listening to C2C that night and being stunned by Velma's call.
What was puzzling was why the call screener or host would wait until the very end of the hour to put her on then cut her off without time for questioning her or suggesting actions that she could take to get her story out. So, there is no verification of her age or presence in Dallas that day.
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4 minutes ago, Dave Chrisman said:
That "experiment" is about as useful as setting a tire on top of the ladder and shooting it to see which way a car would veer off the road. No torso attached to the head equals no conclusive or accurate results. You must replicate the actual event as close as possible for real scientific results. This is a joke and a sham.
In the book Head Shot - The Science Behind the JFK Assassination - Paul Chambers makes exactly that point.
To replicate the shot a melon (or suitable target) must be suspended from above by a rope or below by a spring replicating the support and connection to the neck.
Otherwise - other forces including backspin can be generated.
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5 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:
Hi Gil
Yes - all experiments & tests would have to be as accurate as possible and most would have to be redone.
I picked 2 that I found links to to illustrate the process.
Run experiments as close as possible to accepted facts and use the laws of probability to compute the probability of all the individual experiments having a success - where success is defined as a lone assassin could succeed.
For that to happen you would have to multiply all the individual probabilities together - for example
p(rifle doesn't malfunction) * p(test shooters get shots off in time) * p(2 or more hits) *p(bullets shot into cadavers aren't significantly deformed) .... and on.
I think it would be really informative.
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17 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:
Where in any of this gibberish is the actual physical evidence taken into account?
At 4 inches below the bottom of the collars, the bullet holes in the back of JFK’s clothes prove the shot is impossible.
I hate to be a killjoy but this tripe is absurd.
The physical evidence has been argued over for 60 years without convincing an overwhelming majority, no?
And it's quite easy to either deny it or use it to claim 'possibility' or 'impossibility'.
If as discussed, carefully constructed experiments are set up and run and results filmed and documented and broadcasted it might do more to convince people.
Why haven't the bullet holes in the back of JFK's clothes convinced everyone there was a conspiracy?
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I've been interested in the experimental evidence for a while. I recently watched a video on YouTube where the presenter (who debunks conspiracy theories) started off saying the JFK assassination was weird then in going over the evidence presented he used the word unlikely several times before arriving at no real conclusion.
When some argue the LN side experimental evidence is used to show that their favorite LN could possibly have committed the murder all by himself. There are many anecdotal accounts on the internet stating how easy the shot would be and claims of having recreated it easily. On the other hand there are frequent quotes from some attributed to Carlos Hathcock (IIRC) that the shot would have been extremely difficult if not impossible, highly unlikely.
As an example For Illustration:
Restricting ourselves to the experimental evidence Dan Rather and CBS supplied an experiment by setting up a track, tower and target and then having 11 test shooters simulate the shots.
Experimental Setup:
- 11 volunteers familiar with bolt action rifles but unfamiliar with MC
- given time to practice with MC similar to one found in TSB
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results - assuming Dan Rather only reported successes
- 2 of the test shooters had 2 or more hits in < 6 seconds
- 1 had 1 hit + 2 'near misses'
Assumptions include:
- setup accurate
- the experience of the rifleman doesn't bias the experiment
- Rather reported only the most successful tests
Probability:
So, given the small sample size, we could model the probability of success using a Bayesian approach where we update the probability of some Lone Nut being able to pull off the shot from the rear.
Starting with an agnostic prior probability of 1 success, 1 failure the results of the experiment are added to the counts to get 4 successes, 9 failures.
This results in a probability of a LN success of 4/13 or 0.308. (note: the agnostic prior increases this probability)
an aside:
If you watch the C-Span video linked above to the end - you miss some information - here's the rest of the info Dan R gave at the end of this one.
More Data:
* 37 attempts in total by the 11 marksmen
* 17 failed due to MC rifle problems
* so, assuming Dan R reported successes as above
p(LN successful shots) = (1 + 3) / (20 + 2) = 0.189
At this point, if we assume the rifle tested was representative of the MC population (like we assumed the marksmen were representative of a LN shooter)
p(MC rifle functions) = (1+20) / (2+39) -- again using the agnostic 1 success, 1 failure prior probability
p(MC rifle functions) = 21 / 41 = 0.512
For the LN hypothesis to be true - events tested by both experiments would have to be successful. This can be estimated by multiplying the 2 probabilities together - assuming the rifle tested by CBS was representative & the marksmen were of similar skill to the LN shooter in the rear.
p(LN success) = p(LN successful shots) * p(MC rifle functions) = 0.189 * 0.512 = 0.093
Experiment 2: Don Thomas presentation of acoustic evidence
Setup:
- Experts identified 5 sound impulses on the dicta belt recording as indicating shots
- 32 microphones were set up along the parade route
- 5 shots were fired in Dealey Plaza
- the test recorded impulses were then matched to the microphone w the best match
Results:
- No matter which microphone picked up the first shot - there are only 120 different ways the sequence can occur. examples ABCDE, BDCAE etc.
- Only 1 way for the matches to occur in sequence along the parade route where the mic sequence is always increasing from the first mic to the last
- so 1 in 120 chance that the matches would be in a sequence matching the motorcycles path over time along the parade route - ABCDE.
- The sequence matched the 1 in 120.
- note: mic sequence diagram and explanation @20 minute mark or so
- note2: Thomas misspeaks in presentation and says 1 in 125. I'm pretty sure that's wrong. 5*4*3*2*1 = 120
For LN 3-shot success we would need a random match here with probability of 0.0083 assuming the impulses are from shots. Here we are trying to reject the 5-shot acoustic evidence and would by chance have a (1- 0.0083) chance of doing so. The expectation is that the 5 impulses will be randomly ordered across time but they show up in the sequence matching the motorcycles progress along the route. Given that a lone nut was responsible the sequence is most probably one of the other 119 out of 120 sequences.
So far then the p(LN ) = 0.189 * 0.512 * 0.0083 = 0.00077 or approximately 1 in 1288. -- based on the experiments and assumptions used in this example. Other experiments or more results from experiments that were run could be included easily.
So.... as illustrated above it's interesting to think about the experimental evidece in terms of probabilities. It's easy to state what assumptions are made and count the results then compute the probabilities.
I hope I haven't made a numerical error - if someone finds one I'll correct the above.
It might be very interesting for the 60th year since JFK's murder to see someone do a documentary recreating past experiments.
Other experiments might include:
* suspending watermelons from above by string or rope or below by spring then shooting them to test which way they move
* having test witnesses sit across the street from the TSBD then have people of different sizes appear at the partially closed window for 5 or 10 seconds and seeing how many of the test witnesses could correctly (with some bounds for error) describe their sex, hair color, weight, height, etc.
I do know that lots of people who have explored the murder have evidence that proves a conspiracy - at least to themselves and others - and yet others will reject any evidence conflicting with their beliefs.
But it could be more interesting if people would state a probability and list the assumptions experiments are based on rather than relying on possibilities. Well at least for me.
Hope this was interesting example of how this could be done (maybe by an expert in designing experiments and modelling experimental probabilities) and an interesting read.
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I've implemented some of Hinton's algorithms from papers in programs.
I think he's probably right to be concerned about the disinformation aspect.
https://www.wired.com/story/geoffrey-hinton-ai-chatgpt-dangers/
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7 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:
Fact is, Hillary Clinton won the primary fair and square.... the superdelegates helped her do so. Superdelegates have been a part of the Democratic Party since the 1980s. Their purpose is to prevent un-electable candidate from winning the primary.
Well they sure failed at that when the voted for Mrs Clinton.
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As I pointed out in the other RFKjr thread - being an outsider is an advantage.
Especially when a significant number, if not a majority, of voters are fed up with the government provided by the two party system.
Experience is no longer an advantage.
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just a recap of recent history:
- favorite is the party / insider / media favorite
- outsider - the non-favourite or non-insider
2008:
- Dem Primary - favorite: Clinton outsider: Obama
- Gen Election - insider: McCain outsider: Obama
2016:
- Dem Primary - favorite: Clinton outsider: Bernie
- Rep Primary: favorite: someone on the 'deep bench' outsider: Trump
- Gen Election - favorite: Clinton outsider: Trump
2020:
- Dem Primary: favorite: Biden outsider: Bernie
- Gen Election: favorite: Biden outsider: None - Trump running for re-election
In 2016 the Dems had to pull out all the stops to stop Bernie.
I may be wrong, but I wouldn't write off any 'outsider' at this point as it goes against the trend. Voters seem fed up with politicians.
Although, the Dem establishment will pull out all the stops against RFK jr.
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This may be of some interest wrt this topic. At the hotel parking lot in the morning after breakfast in Ft Worth:
“ [Norm] Bradford had found a spectacular location for creating an overview photo. “I went to the top of the Hotel Texas and made a shot [poor choice of words, considering the totality of Bradford’s comment] down on the parking lot across the street from the 14th floor of the Hotel. I’m still wondering why I wasn’t shot off the side of the building at that time. When I got up there and was shooting down, I just happened to glance around, and all I could see on all the roofs of the buildings around were yellow raincoats with people with high-powered rifles. There I was, standing on the 14th floor of the Hotel Texas, and not a soul, it was not protected, and it was not sealed off. I was very surprised.” (Richard Trask, Pictures of the Pain: Photography and the Assassination of President Kennedy, p. 329)
So who was on the roof? There is no documentation anywhere to suggest that the Secret Service requested any such additional security, or that such additional security was ever provided. The only such fact we have is the “Harry Weatherford atop the County Jail” story, and the only person to corroborate Weatherford was, of course, Weatherford. And he wasn’t polite about it at all.
Could they have been a team of assassins? Yeah, I know, far-fetched—but so is a group of people in yellow raincoats with high-powered rifles. There are two critical factors based on what we know from photographer Norm Bradford. The single most critical factor is that there was no such heavily armed guard atop the Hotel Texas.
Brown Ph.D, Walt. Master Chronology of JFK Assassination Book II: Death . Vigliano Books. Kindle Edition.
Paul Landis Revelation About Assassination Bullet
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
Hi David - The quote itself was from Dr Young's letter in the article. So maybe he mistook the Queen Mary as the JFK limo since in the letter he previously seems to have made that mistake:
"I requested two of our corpsmen who were assigned to our White House medical unit, to go to the Executive Office Building where the Secret Service had placed the “Queen Mary,” [sic] the open convertible in which President Kennedy had been shot, for bone fragments."