HSCA

[Miles Scull]

Thomas,

Thanks for posting the Speed data. I ran out of time. Your copy is far superior.

I found an aerial shot of DP in the WC report.

So I went ahead and composited the West survey over the aerial.

It seems to fit very nicely except for the Schoolbook Depository marker.

Anything to be concerned with?

chris

-------------------------------------------------------

Chris

Although I only have a limited knowledge of aerial photography, I dont think there is anything to be concerned about. Because of camera angle / tilt, lens distortion and ground relief or elevation, an aerial photograph is not a true geometric representation of what is on the ground.

When using aerial photography for survey purposes (i.e. placing digital lines, geographic symbols, etc) it must first be orthorectified. Software is used to remove the effects described above and the result is a geometrically corrected image (orthoimagery) which can be used to measure distances, etc.

When overlaying onto an aerial photograph one should always expect an accurate trace to differ slightly from the photograph.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thx Russ,

You mention rendering software for corrections.

Do you have a link or name for such software?

Miles

I don't pretend to be an expert on this at all, but from what I understand it is a very complicated process requiring difficult to acquire information and equipment. I don't think knowing the name of the software will help, as we only have a single image to work with and no supporting data about the image.

In order to orthorectify a photograph, you need to have a digital elevation model to "drape" the photograph over. In the most basic terms, what usually happens is that a set of equally distributed and accurate Ground Control Points (elevation points) are taken from all over the area photographed - this is carried out using GPS stations to acquire very accurate height data. This is the Digital Elevation Model.

The area in question also needs to be photographed to produce a series of overlapping photographs, which are then scanned using a very accurate flatbed scanner. Various algorithms must be applied to each pixel on the scan to rectify it with the real features on the ground - using supporting data such as the camera location (in relation to the ground), film resolution, etc. The scan is then digitised and becomes an orthoimage.

For information purposes, 'Arc Info' is one of the more popular pieces of software but I am sure there are many others.

Russ

Russ

Thx for exegesis & lead. Nor am I expert, but orthorectification programs are interesting & possibly useful in future. Thx again.

Miles

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Chris & John;

Unless there are additional questions, this will most probably be the last posting on this subject matter.

There are far to many topics in which I have not entered into in my subversive attempt to create hate; dissention; and attempt to confuse all with the facts.

Having basically revealed the "key" to the mystical code of the Drommer survey plat, might I recommend that one take a look at the elevation "91.5" in the center of Elm St., and thereafter draw themselves a line from the Z-position to this location as well.

91.5 + 329.6 = elevation 421.1

Survey elevation for location of JFK at Z255:-----------el 421.19

If that "red flag" & arrow means anything of importance in the big scheme of things.

Tom

P.S. I would most probably also take a look at all of the elevations of the Drommer survey plat, and certainly wonder exactly what and/or who they are supposed to represent.

[Chris Davidson]

Thomas,

Thanks for posting the Speed data. I ran out of time. Your copy is far superior.

I found an aerial shot of DP in the WC report.

So I went ahead and composited the West survey over the aerial.

It seems to fit very nicely except for the Schoolbook Depository marker.

Anything to be concerned with?

chris

Chris

Although I only have a limited knowledge of aerial photography, I dont think there is anything to be concerned about. Because of camera angle / tilt, lens distortion and ground relief or elevation, an aerial photograph is not a true geometric representation of what is on the ground.

When using aerial photography for survey purposes (i.e. placing digital lines, geographic symbols, etc) it must first be orthorectified. Software is used to remove the effects described above and the result is a geometrically corrected image (orthoimagery) which can be used to measure distances, etc.

When overlaying onto an aerial photograph one should always expect an accurate trace to differ slightly from the photograph.

Russ, thank you for filling in the details.

Miles,

Here are the individual photos from the composite.

Thomas, looks like I've got some work to do.

chris

[John Dolva]

John D: "The Z film has Kennedy's head moving forward at this point as well, but it really looks to me that it is Jackie that pushes it forward or out of the way as she rises to reach over the trunk. (or boot) of the Limo. One needs to localise the stabilisation/alignment of frames at this point to see it clearly happening."

right click and save/open 600kb

http://www.mediamax.com/yanndee/Hosted/final.mpg

Edited June 15, 2007 by John Dolva

[Miles Scull]

John D: "The Z film has Kennedy's head moving forward at this point as well, but it really looks to me that it is Jackie that pushes it forward or out of the way as she rises to reach over the trunk. (or boot) of the Limo. One needs to localise the stabilisation/alignment of frames at this point to see it clearly happening."

right click and save/open 600kb

http://www.mediamax.com/yanndee/Hosted/final.mpg

John,

Got the .mpg just fine. Please indicate a time line here; perhaps via Z frame sequencing. "forward at this point as well" Which point? Thx

[John Dolva]

John D: "The Z film has Kennedy's head moving forward at this point as well, but it really looks to me that it is Jackie that pushes it forward or out of the way as she rises to reach over the trunk. (or boot) of the Limo. One needs to localise the stabilisation/alignment of frames at this point to see it clearly happening."

right click and save/open 600kb

http://www.mediamax.com/yanndee/Hosted/final.mpg

John,

Got the .mpg just fine. Please indicate a time line here; perhaps via Z frame sequencing. "forward at this point as well" Which point? Thx

Great. If you look at the left area you can see that Clint jumps and fumbles. This highest point his head reaches is seen in other films. (see "missing Nix frames") The Z film IMO is wrongly numbered because of splices that has removed frames partially or wholly(IMO). The work on synching (mostly by Frank and I with many contributions) the films is unfinished for various reasons, so rather than mentioning numbers one can look at events. The point here is to see the moment when the Limo passes Altgens. (one can use infranview for example to rip frames from the clip and check/compare for the WC numbers).

[Miles Scull]

John D: "The Z film has Kennedy's head moving forward at this point as well, but it really looks to me that it is Jackie that pushes it forward or out of the way as she rises to reach over the trunk. (or boot) of the Limo. One needs to localise the stabilisation/alignment of frames at this point to see it clearly happening."

right click and save/open 600kb

http://www.mediamax.com/yanndee/Hosted/final.mpg

John,

Got the .mpg just fine. Please indicate a time line here; perhaps via Z frame sequencing. "forward at this point as well" Which point? Thx

Great. If you look at the left area you can see that Clint jumps and fumbles. This highest point his head reaches is seen in other films. (see "missing Nix frames") The Z film IMO is wrongly numbered because of splices that has removed frames partially or wholly(IMO). The work on synching (mostly by Frank and I with many contributions) the films is unfinished for various reasons, so rather than mentioning numbers one can look at events. The point here is to see the moment when the Limo passes Altgens. (one can use infranview for example to rip frames from the clip and check/compare for the WC numbers).

Right... Oh, BTW, is there some ancillary implication that the famous forward head snap immediately preceding the "back & to the left" thrust was not necessarily caused by a rear bullet impact, or was not consistent with or not comporting with a rear bullet strike to the head?

[Thomas H. Purvis]

John & Chris;

Hopefully for the last comment (unless there are questions).

Not wanting to leave this subject with anyone thinking that I have again been "keeping secrets", if one will look back in history, they just may find that they have been told far more than then recognize.

================================================================================

===

El. 91.8

Hint:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...=8300&st=30

Post #42

The Testimony of Emmett Hudson was taken on July 22, 1964.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Which really does not mean much to most.

However, when one takes into consideration the fact that Mr. Hudon's position on the steps was surveyed in by Robert West during the WC survey work of May 1964, then Mr. Hudson's attempt to describe his position takes on an entirely different meaning. Not unlike the attempt by Mr. Altgens.

Mr. West was totally unaware of why he was informed to survey in Point "A" (Pt A) on the steps which lead down to Elm St.

Nevertheless, he did as told.

I have taken the liberty to transfer from the Survey notes of Mr. West, "Pt A" , and thereafter place it onto the full size copy of the survey plat.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. LIEBELER - I show you another picture which we will mark as Hudson Exhibit No. 1. I have put my initials on the back of the picture. Would you do that too so we can identify the picture before we start to talk about it, so we don't get confused?

Mr. HUDSON - You mean - put my name?

Mr. LIEBELER - Just your initials.

Mr. HUDSON - [Marked picture as requested.] Is that all right?

Mr. LIEBELER - Now, let's take a look at that picture, Mr. Hudson, and let me ask you if you can see in that picture, where you were standing?

Mr. HUDSON -(no response.)

Mr. LIEBELER - Now, this picture, Hudson Exhibit No. 1, has a sign in it that says "Stemmons Freeway, keep right." doesn't it?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol20_0102a.htm

And, just in case anyone has yet to figure out exactly how this game is played:

Critical evidence (Willis Photo) is entered into evidence during the questioning of Hudson, and is "passed" off to the unwary as merely an attempt to establish the location of Mr. Hudson. (as if it were truly some difficult problem)

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/hudson.htm

The Testimony of Emmet J. Hudson was taken at 10:40 a.m., on July 22, 1964,

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/gauthier.htm

Mr. GAUTHIER. The survey was made on May 24, 1964, by Robert H. West, county surveyor

Methinks that the WC knew relatively well the exact location of Mr. Hudson, since they had his location surveyed in.

Is there anyone who has yet to figure out the rules of the game and how it is played?

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/hudson.htm

I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot.

Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that correct?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it looked like it ht him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear.

Mr. LIEBELER - On the right-hand side or the left-hand side?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere right along in there

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, if recalled, in addition to having provided a copy of the West Survey Plat which demonstrated the position of James Altgens, as well as how to locate the yellow mark on the curb where he was standing.

In that, I gave distances, etc; and referenced the extension of a line from the concrete curb of the steps at the bottom of the slope on the opposite side of the road from Altgens, and those steps which Mr. Hudson referenced.

The extension of this line to run from the concrete on the Hudson side of the street, parallel with the sidewalk, and thus extend across the street to the Altgens side.

In that regards, one might want to connect the "dots" from elevations:

88.1 to

88.2 T/C to

86.1 to Center Elm St

86.2 to T/C to

alignment with the curb section along the walkway coming down from Mr. Hudson's position.

It gives on a relative exact location on Altgens/the yellow mark side of the street in which to begin measurements to locate the 3-foot long yellow mark as well as the exact position of James Altgens.

Tom

The way is now well lighted and marked! No more help unless asked for. (promise)

[John Dolva]

"is there some ancillary implication that the famous forward head snap immediately preceding the "back & to the left" thrust was not necessarily caused by a rear bullet impact, or was not consistent with or not comporting with a rear bullet strike to the head?"

strictly IMO: as a 'sculptor' (wood carving) of heads I'm aware of the head having a series of well defined planes. This means that simply turning the head can make it look wider or narrower. Certain head movements, plus the apparent movements as the limo moves down the street and the camera pans can make one movement look like something else.

One example: if the head tilts towards Z it can 'look' as if it moves forward. The shoulder is raised and the trapezoid muscle may act as a spring board contributing to a left movement. The damage to the vertabrae could be a whiplash injury. Unlikely. Yet the different head planes are a factor to consider.

If Jackie had not been sitting there with her hands on Kennedy and her body in the way perhaps the following movement could have been less back and more left. I don't know.

Edited June 15, 2007 by John Dolva

[Thomas H. Purvis]

John D: "The Z film has Kennedy's head moving forward at this point as well, but it really looks to me that it is Jackie that pushes it forward or out of the way as she rises to reach over the trunk. (or boot) of the Limo. One needs to localise the stabilisation/alignment of frames at this point to see it clearly happening."

right click and save/open 600kb

http://www.mediamax.com/yanndee/Hosted/final.mpg

John,

Got the .mpg just fine. Please indicate a time line here; perhaps via Z frame sequencing. "forward at this point as well" Which point? Thx

Great. If you look at the left area you can see that Clint jumps and fumbles. This highest point his head reaches is seen in other films. (see "missing Nix frames") The Z film IMO is wrongly numbered because of splices that has removed frames partially or wholly(IMO). The work on synching (mostly by Frank and I with many contributions) the films is unfinished for various reasons, s

o rather than mentioning numbers one can look at events. The point here is to see the moment when the Limo passes Altgens. (one can use infranview for example to rip frames from the clip and check/compare for the WC numbers).

Great. If you look at the left area you can see that Clint jumps and fumbles. This highest point his head reaches is seen in other films. (see "missing Nix frames") The Z film IMO is wrongly numbered because of splices that has removed frames partially or wholly(IMO).

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...=8300&st=45

Post #48

It's Clint Hill, but don't worry about it, we all get that way at times.

And, not unlike my advice to others, when the running/jumping man reveals ALL of his secrets, then the final pieces of the puzzle will begin to come into place as regards the Z-film and the Limo speed between Z313 and Altgens position.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When ya hot, your hot!

And you most certainly should be beginning to feel some heat there John.

[John Dolva]

I think definitely that something conclusive can be arrived at. Because I like to work on a pixel level on very large images there are error margins in the available plats because of line thicknesses and not knowing certain peripheral points as they were in Nov '63 to use to line up photographers and filmers and prescicely locating them at prescice moments, that apart from feeling some 'heat', one is simultaneously hamstrung. Beyond this it enters the speculative. I don't mind. Much is so. Still, solid advances are made when the work of one is on a level playing field with regards to data and then people need no longer believe one way or an other as it is a reproducible result by anyone.

Edited June 15, 2007 by John Dolva

[Guest Mark Valenti]

A note of encouragement and solidarity with you, John. Rock on!

[Thomas H. Purvis]

I think definitely that something conclusive can be arrived at. Because I like to work on a pixel level on very large images there are error margins in the available plats because of line thicknesses and not knowing certain peripheral points as they were in Nov '63 to use to line up photographers and filmers and prescicely locating them at prescice moments, that apart from feeling some 'heat', one is simultaneously hamstrung. Beyond this it enters the speculative. I don't mind. Much is so. Still, solid advances are made when the work of one is on a level playing field with regards to data and then people need no longer believe one way or an other as it is a reproducible result by anyone.

Just perhaps you have now found that you are in fact in possesion of far more of the survey data than even you were aware.

Even "madness" often has it's own logic and reasons for actions!

In many ways, a man after my own heart. Can not allow a puzzle to go unresolved!

[Chris Davidson]

I think definitely that something conclusive can be arrived at. Because I like to work on a pixel level on very large images there are error margins in the available plats because of line thicknesses and not knowing certain peripheral points as they were in Nov '63 to use to line up photographers and filmers and prescicely locating them at prescice moments, that apart from feeling some 'heat', one is simultaneously hamstrung. Beyond this it enters the speculative. I don't mind. Much is so. Still, solid advances are made when the work of one is on a level playing field with regards to data and then people need no longer believe one way or an other as it is a reproducible result by anyone.

Quote from John Dolva:

Great. If you look at the left area you can see that Clint jumps and fumbles. This highest point his head reaches is seen in other films. (see "missing Nix frames") The Z film IMO is wrongly numbered because of splices that has removed frames partially or wholly(IMO). The work on synching (mostly by Frank and I with many contributions) the films is unfinished for various reasons, so rather than mentioning numbers one can look at events. The point here is to see the moment when the Limo passes Altgens. (one can use infranview for example to rip frames from the clip and check/compare for the WC numbers).

John,

Nice job on the Altgen's clip.

Listen to Altgen's description of the head-shot either by mp3 audio or mov video. (Supplied) Change .mov video extension to .mp4 if necessary.

Watch your clip again and the headshot sequence (stabilized if possible).

Altgen's describes JFK moving ONLY forward from the headshot and dropping into Jackie's lap.

In your clip, as the limo is approaching Altgen's, JFK's movement seems to be more indicative of Altgen's description on the video/audio I have

furnished.

In other words, only Frame313 would actually belong near the beginning of your clip.

This way you have the headshot, JFK moving forward, falling into Jackie's lap and NO backward movement as the limo passes by Ike. Just as Altgen's describes and THOMAS PURVIS has shown us.

chris

P.S.

How does the backwards movement footage fit in?

[Pat Speer]

I think definitely that something conclusive can be arrived at. Because I like to work on a pixel level on very large images there are error margins in the available plats because of line thicknesses and not knowing certain peripheral points as they were in Nov '63 to use to line up photographers and filmers and prescicely locating them at prescice moments, that apart from feeling some 'heat', one is simultaneously hamstrung. Beyond this it enters the speculative. I don't mind. Much is so. Still, solid advances are made when the work of one is on a level playing field with regards to data and then people need no longer believe one way or an other as it is a reproducible result by anyone.

Quote from John Dolva:

Great. If you look at the left area you can see that Clint jumps and fumbles. This highest point his head reaches is seen in other films. (see "missing Nix frames") The Z film IMO is wrongly numbered because of splices that has removed frames partially or wholly(IMO). The work on synching (mostly by Frank and I with many contributions) the films is unfinished for various reasons, so rather than mentioning numbers one can look at events. The point here is to see the moment when the Limo passes Altgens. (one can use infranview for example to rip frames from the clip and check/compare for the WC numbers).

John,

Nice job on the Altg

en's clip.

Listen to Altgen's description of the head-shot either by mp3 audio or mov video. (Supplied) Change .mov video extension to .mp4 if necessary.

Watch your clip again and the headshot sequence (stabilized if possible).

Altgen's describes JFK moving ONLY forward from the headshot and dropping into Jackie's lap.

In your clip, as the limo is approaching Altgen's, JFK's movement seems to be more indicative of Altgen's description on the video/audio I have

furnished.

In other words, only Frame313 would actually belong near the beginning of your clip.

This way you have the headshot, JFK moving forward, falling into Jackie's lap and NO backward movement as the limo passes by Ike. Just as Altgen's describes and THOMAS PURVIS has shown us.

chris

P.S.

How does the backwards movement footage fit in?

Chris, do you remember where you got the Altgens audio clip? And when it was recorded? I hadn't heard that before.