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Guest Gary Loughran
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Guest Gary Loughran

From the thread on CIA family jewels

So now we have Henry Kiss Kissinger, Dick Helms, Ed Lansdale and LBJ's AG Ramsey Clark all saying, in three part harmony, that RFK was behind a Castro assassination operation.

Over a decade ago, when Tom Waldman of Ultimate Sac, wanted to give a talk to COPA, John Judge said that the next layer of the cover story was that RFK approved the Castro hit that killed JFK in the blowback.

Judge noted that the designed cover story had many levels, beginning with Castro responsible (PDS Phase One), replaced by Lone-nut (P2), and the multitude of conspiracy (CIA, Mafia, KGB), eventually getting to the RFK scenario.

Judge said then that "when it gets to the point that they have to acknowledge a political conspiracy, then they're going to say that Bobby ordered Castro killed and they were sons of bitches anyway, and deserved to die."

BK

I have been thinking along these lines too of late. I believe that in the 'next phase' RFK is going to take the rap for training the anti-Castro Cubans who eventually turned and killed JFK. Some CIA handlers (Morales perhaps, among others) may be hung out to dry as 'rogue' CIA men who were involved. This way the CIA admits conspiracy albeit not one which as an organisation they were aware of - with the added get out clause that these men were originally working for the attorney general at the time.

LBJ will then be seen to have ordered the coverup to avoid nuclear war as the inevitable outcome of any retribution by the US against Cuba. Again the CIA/FBI etc can say that, whilst disagreeing fundamentally with performing a coverup, they were acting on orders from the President and ultimately performing a worthy service of preventing war.

This way some salient facts about the conspiracies of the assassination and coverup can become public domain whilst limiting the actions of intelligence services (in fact making these intelligence services seem like the good guys). It also dovetails with EHH's 'deathbed confession'. I think David Talbot's book also lends a certain credence to this story.

Is it also possible that Bugliosi's book is a deliberate ploy to reinvigorate interest in the case. It seems that with all the water that has travelled under the bridge, his book is contemporaneously unique in clinging so rigidly to the WR and LHO stories as to make it unbelievable - this boat cannot float with what is known de facto about the assassination. Couple this with Talbot's reasoned approach and manner in interview and perhaps we see that the roles are being flipped and the WR supporters shown to be little more than kooky, historically retarded ostriches with their heads in the sand (among other places).

Just some thoughts I've been having. FWIW - anyone following the Pat Finucane case in Northern Ireland will see essentially the same game plan used be intelligence services here. There comes a time when the truth is all that's wanted and if timed correctly the blame and anger are fleeting and the crimes accepted. Gauging the acceptable tolerances of the public may be the only consideration in this. Preparing the constituency indeed.

Edited by Gary Loughran
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From the thread on CIA family jewels
So now we have Henry Kiss Kissinger, Dick Helms, Ed Lansdale and LBJ's AG Ramsey Clark all saying, in three part harmony, that RFK was behind a Castro assassination operation.

Over a decade ago, when Tom Waldman of Ultimate Sac, wanted to give a talk to COPA, John Judge said that the next layer of the cover story was that RFK approved the Castro hit that killed JFK in the blowback.

Judge noted that the designed cover story had many levels, beginning with Castro responsible (PDS Phase One), replaced by Lone-nut (P2), and the multitude of conspiracy (CIA, Mafia, KGB), eventually getting to the RFK scenario.

Judge said then that "when it gets to the point that they have to acknowledge a political conspiracy, then they're going to say that Bobby ordered Castro killed and they were sons of bitches anyway, and deserved to die."

BK

I have been thinking along these lines too of late. I believe that in the 'next phase' RFK is going to take the rap for training the anti-Castro Cubans who eventually turned and killed JFK. Some CIA handlers (Morales perhaps, among others) may be hung out to dry as 'rogue' CIA men who were involved. This way the CIA admits conspiracy albeit not one which as an organisation they were aware of - with the added get out clause that these men were originally working for the attorney general at the time.

LBJ will then be seen to have ordered the coverup to avoid nuclear war as the inevitable outcome of any retribution by the US against Cuba. Again the CIA/FBI etc can say that, whilst disagreeing fundamentally with performing a coverup, they were acting on orders from the President and ultimately performing a worthy service of preventing war.

This way some salient facts about the conspiracies of the assassination and coverup can become public domain whilst limiting the actions of intelligence services (in fact making these intelligence services seem like the good guys). It also dovetails with EHH's 'deathbed confession'. I think David Talbot's book also lends a certain credence to this story.

Is it also possible that Bugliosi's book is a deliberate ploy to reinvigorate interest in the case. It seems that with all the water that has travelled under the bridge, his book is contemporaneously unique in clinging so rigidly to the WR and LHO stories as to make it unbelievable - this boat cannot float with what is known de facto about the assassination. Couple this with Talbot's reasoned approach and manner in interview and perhaps we see that the roles are being flipped and the WR supporters shown to be little more than kooky, historically retarded ostriches with their heads in the sand (among other places).

Just some thoughts I've been having. FWIW - anyone following the Pat Finucane case in Northern Ireland will see essentially the same game plan used be intelligence services here. There comes a time when the truth is all that's wanted and if timed correctly the blame and anger are fleeting and the crimes accepted. Gauging the acceptable tolerances of the public may be the only consideration in this. Preparing the constituency indeed.

Hi Gary,

Of course I meant Lamar Waldron, rather than Tom, as a major proponent of the RFK thesis, which was first published by Jack Anderson - March 3, 1966, based on a story leaked to DC attorney Edward Morgan by John Roselli, whose original story went: "The last of the sniper teams dispatched by Robert Kennedy (to Cuba) in 1963 to assassinate Fidel Castro were [sic] captured in Havana. Under torture they broke and confessed to being sponsored by the CIA and the US government. At that point, Castro remarked that, if that was the way President Kennedy wanted it, Cuba would engage in the same tactics."

(From Larry Hancock's excellent SWHT, p. 150)

Larry also points out that "....When he (Shackley) was questioned by the Church Committee as to authorization of these activities, the same investigation showed Desmond Fitzgerald representing himself falsely as Robert Kennedy's personal agent in meeting with Cubela, Shackley insisted he did not recall authorizing the shipments."

The most recent reports of Helms/Kissinger allegations also mention the marine commando operations as the focus on specific teams and missions that were sent into Cuba.

Of these, those commando missions directly connected to the Dealey Plaza operation were the Bayo/Pawley/TILT mission was not an official JM/WAVE op, but one they knew of and approved, and the Rex mission of Oct.30-Nov.1 (per Collins Radio conexions)

Both led to missing men in Cuba.

Bradley E. Ayers, in his book Zenith Secret, gives details of his participation in a mission to Cuba aboard the Rex and mentions his After Action Report, which has yet to be released by the CIA.

BEA also mentions the paramilitary training of separate groups which included Tony Sforza, also a character in LH's book, and Julio Fernandez, of Clare Luce Booth fame.

The Sforza mission, to attack a coastal oil refinery, was aborted, or was it possibly redirected elsewhere, like Dallas?

BEA says that he met RFK twice in Florida, once at a JM/WAVE cocktail party, and also at a remote Everglades camp, where RFK helicoptered in to meet with and offer encouragement to commandos before a mission.

While BEA seems to offer support to the thesis that RFK personally oversaw missions, these operations were discussed and approved by the Special Group Augumented, which did not include assassinations.

The bottom line is, RFK was set up by the anti-Castro Cubans he was directing out of the SGA, who he thought were involved in economic sabatoge of Cuban targets. While they would have us believe the Cubans captured these commandos, tortured, turned them, and sent them back to kill JFK, it is apparent that they were redirected to target JFK by their own commanders.

BK

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Here's What Brad Ayers has to say about RFK at JM/WAVE:

The Zenith Secret – A CIA Insider Exposes the Secret War Against Cuba and the Plot that Killed the Kennedy Brothers, by Bradley E. Ayers (Vox Pop/Drench Kiss Media Corportation, 1022 Corelyou Road, Brooklyn, NY 11218. [www.voxpopnet.net]

……At a social gathering at Key Biscayne, "After chatting for a few minutes, Colonel Bond….introduced me to some of the guests. I shook hands with Mr. Harvey and Mr. O'Connell. Both addressed me by my first name. There were several people I recognized from Zenith….I met Mr. Hunt, one of the few present there who looked the part of the classic intellectual espionage type. With Hunt was a Cuban introduced as Mr. Artime. I spotted Mr. Fitzgerald and he acknowledged me with a nod of his head. Colonel Bond told me it was Richard Helms, head of CIA covert operations, standing next to him. Relaxing from the Manhattans, I laughed, realizing that most of the people looked gentle and conservative. Yet when they pulled a string, men lived or died. These men around me were guiding our national policy toward Cuba."

"Suddenly there was a stir of activity near the courtyard door. The reception line was breaking up. Apparently the VIPs, whoever they were, were leaving. As they passed through the living room, they talked amiably with some of the guests. One man, his back to me, caught my eye. He was younger than the rest, and his full head of hair was conspicuously longer, reaching his collar. He was slim, with a wiry, catlike stance. He wore a sports coat and loose, baggy slacks. His hands were thrust into his pockets and his shoulders slumped forward, casual, almost sloppy. There was something about him I remembered from somewhere….It was Robert Kennedy, the president's brother, the attorney general! I wedged my way even closer, and as he began to walk toward the front door, I thrust out my hand, Robert Kennedy shook it, smiling warmly."

"Good to see you."

"It wasn't every day that one met the attorney general of the United States….I believed that President Kennedy's promise to the Bay of Pigs survivors was more than just an effort to pacify the exiles. There was something special going on. I was thrilled to have some small part of it….."

"My good friend Ed Roderick….was coming for dinner….Rod had been drinking before he got to the house that night. In fact, he confided, he and the recently arrived Colonel Rosselli were working on a plan to ambush Fidel Castro and had been on a weekend binge together. They'd become close friends as they spent time together; their drinking friendship was a natural extension of their on-duty relationship."

"…He told me Rosselli had high level Mafia and Havana connections….The last American attempts to penetrate with larger craft such as the Rex and Leda had ended in disaster….In the future, Rod said, operations hoped to rely on smaller, faster, lightly armed boats that could make it all the way across the Florida Straights…Several new V-20s had been developed with a fuel capacity sufficient to assure at least a one way crossing of the straights…."

p. 86:

"…We were going to a meeting place in the Everglades….We pulled into a truck stop at the junction of Tamiami Trail and Hightway 27, and another man – a Cuban who I had never seen before – checked the license of the car and climbed in. No one spoke as we drove down the long, slightly traveled highway and eventually turned onto a dirt road bordered by canal. After about a mile, the driver pulled over. An airboat was waiting in the canal, and in moments we were noisily skimming across the saw grass as dusk settled over the glades…..After nearly 30 minutes of travel across open swampland and deep canals, we turned under some overhanging trees and pulled up to a small dock behind another airboat. A sign on the rotting timbers read 'Waloos Glades Hunting Camp – No Tresspassing.' It was nearly dark, but I could see two small Quonsets with lights burning in the windows. Some men were standing around a campfire in the middle of the clearing, and in its flickering light I could see two helicopter parked in the shadows. One was a military Bell H-13 with the identification numbers taped over, and the other was a civilian chopper with the name West Palm Beach air service on the tail rotor boom."

"We walked to the fire and a young man handed us cups of coffee. I had never seen the men before. Soon the door to one of the Quonsets swung open and four men emerged. As they moved into the circle of firelight I recognized Gordon Campbell. I had seen him only a few times since my brief meeting with him, but had been impressed with his polished, slightly flamboyant executive manner. I caught my breath at the appearance of the second man. It was the attorney general, Robert Kennedy."

"The four men talked in low voices for a few minutes, and then the attorney general came over and shook hands with each of us, wishing us good luck and God's speed on our mission."

"Hell, I didn't even know what my mission was. His white teeth flashed and sparkled, and I felt a strange sense of strength and resolve when he grasped my hand. Then he and one of the Cubans went to the civilian helicopter, an din minutes it took off. Now I understood the need for extra secrecy. If the president felt strongly enough to send his brother, something very big was being planned."

"When the helicopter was gone, the deputy chief of station came over….he said, 'The reason we've got you here and the reason for all the secrecy is that we just got the green light from upstairs to go ahead on some missions we've been planning for some time.'"

"We entered the Quonset….Campbell closed the door behind us and turned to face me. 'We're very pleased with the way you've handled the training setup for the station so far, and we've made that known to your people at the Pentagon. We know it hasn't been easy for you and your family….You'll be happy to know that the Special Group has finally given us permission to use two-man submarines to strike Castro's ships in the harbors. Some of your UDT people will be involved in that. And next week Rip's boys are going to Elgin for parachute training, so an airborne commando raid may not be far off. But right now we've got the go-ahead to hit one of the major oil refineries from on the island. All we've got to do is get a commando force in shape to do the job."

Edited by William Kelly
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From the thread on CIA family jewels
So now we have Henry Kiss Kissinger, Dick Helms, Ed Lansdale and LBJ's AG Ramsey Clark all saying, in three part harmony, that RFK was behind a Castro assassination operation.

Over a decade ago, when Tom Waldman of Ultimate Sac, wanted to give a talk to COPA, John Judge said that the next layer of the cover story was that RFK approved the Castro hit that killed JFK in the blowback.

Judge noted that the designed cover story had many levels, beginning with Castro responsible (PDS Phase One), replaced by Lone-nut (P2), and the multitude of conspiracy (CIA, Mafia, KGB), eventually getting to the RFK scenario.

Judge said then that "when it gets to the point that they have to acknowledge a political conspiracy, then they're going to say that Bobby ordered Castro killed and they were sons of bitches anyway, and deserved to die."

BK

I have been thinking along these lines too of late. I believe that in the 'next phase' RFK is going to take the rap for training the anti-Castro Cubans who eventually turned and killed JFK. Some CIA handlers (Morales perhaps, among others) may be hung out to dry as 'rogue' CIA men who were involved. This way the CIA admits conspiracy albeit not one which as an organisation they were aware of - with the added get out clause that these men were originally working for the attorney general at the time.

LBJ will then be seen to have ordered the coverup to avoid nuclear war as the inevitable outcome of any retribution by the US against Cuba. Again the CIA/FBI etc can say that, whilst disagreeing fundamentally with performing a coverup, they were acting on orders from the President and ultimately performing a worthy service of preventing war.

This way some salient facts about the conspiracies of the assassination and coverup can become public domain whilst limiting the actions of intelligence services (in fact making these intelligence services seem like the good guys). It also dovetails with EHH's 'deathbed confession'. I think David Talbot's book also lends a certain credence to this story.

I think the two of you, Gary and BK, have described exactly what happened in the Assassination. Two questions:

1. Did Bobby Kennedy have a small enclave of Cuban Exiles who still liked the President and who were going to kill Castro, possibly without the President's knowledge, on Dec 1? If I remember correctly, this was the theory Joan Mellen described in A Farewell to Justice?

2. If there was going to be a "triangle of fire" to kill Castro, how were the Exiles going to get into Cuba to pull this off? Instead they turned the method around 180 degrees and trained it on Kennedy, failing twice, but ultimately achieving one of the most momentous unsolved murders in history.

Kathy

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Here's What Brad Ayers has to say about RFK at JM/WAVE:

The Zenith Secret – A CIA Insider Exposes the Secret War Against Cuba and the Plot that Killed the Kennedy Brothers, by Bradley E. Ayers (Vox Pop/Drench Kiss Media Corportation, 1022 Corelyou Road, Brooklyn, NY 11218. [www.voxpopnet.net]

……At a social gathering at Key Biscayne, “After chatting for a few minutes, Colonel Bond….introduced me to some of the guests. I shook hands with Mr. Harvey and Mr. O’Connell. Both addressed me by my first name. There were several people I recognized from Zenith….I met Mr. Hunt, one of the few present there who looked the part of the classic intellectual espionage type. With Hunt was a Cuban introduced as Mr. Artime. I spotted Mr. Fitzgerald and he acknowledged me with a nod of his head. Colonel Bond told me it was Richard Helms, head of CIA covert operations, standing next to him. Relaxing from the Manhattans, I laughed, realizing that most of the people looked gentle and conservative. Yet when they pulled a string, men lived or died. These men around me were guiding our national policy toward Cuba.”

“Suddenly there was a stir of activity near the courtyard door. The reception line was breaking up. Apparently the VIPs, whoever they were, were leaving. As they passed through the living room, they talked amiably with some of the guests. One man, his back to me, caught my eye. He was younger than the rest, and his full head of hair was conspicuously longer, reaching his collar. He was slim, with a wiry, catlike stance. He wore a sports coat and loose, baggy slacks. His hands were thrust into his pockets and his shoulders slumped forward, casual, almost sloppy. There was something about him I remembered from somewhere….It was Robert Kennedy, the president’s brother, the attorney general! I wedged my way even closer, and as he began to walk toward the front door, I thrust out my hand, Robert Kennedy shook it, smiling warmly.”

“Good to see you.”

“It wasn’t every day that one met the attorney general of the United States….I believed that President Kennedy’s promise to the Bay of Pigs survivors was more than just an effort to pacify the exiles. There was something special going on. I was thrilled to have some small part of it…..”

“My good friend Ed Roderick….was coming for dinner….Rod had been drinking before he got to the house that night. In fact, he confided, he and the recently arrived Colonel Rosselli were working on a plan to ambush Fidel Castro and had been on a weekend binge together. They’d become close friends as they spent time together; their drinking friendship was a natural extension of their on-duty relationship.”

“…He told me Rosselli had high level Mafia and Havana connections….The last American attempts to penetrate with larger craft such as the Rex and Leda had ended in disaster….In the future, Rod said, operations hoped to rely on smaller, faster, lightly armed boats that could make it all the way across the Florida Straights…Several new V-20s had been developed with a fuel capacity sufficient to assure at least a one way crossing of the straights….”

p. 86:

“…We were going to a meeting place in the Everglades….We pulled into a truck stop at the junction of Tamiami Trail and Hightway 27, and another man – a Cuban who I had never seen before – checked the license of the car and climbed in. No one spoke as we drove down the long, slightly traveled highway and eventually turned onto a dirt road bordered by canal. After about a mile, the driver pulled over. An airboat was waiting in the canal, and in moments we were noisily skimming across the saw grass as dusk settled over the glades…..After nearly 30 minutes of travel across open swampland and deep canals, we turned under some overhanging trees and pulled up to a small dock behind another airboat. A sign on the rotting timbers read ‘Waloos Glades Hunting Camp – No Tresspassing.’ It was nearly dark, but I could see two small Quonsets with lights burning in the windows. Some men were standing around a campfire in the middle of the clearing, and in its flickering light I could see two helicopter parked in the shadows. One was a military Bell H-13 with the identification numbers taped over, and the other was a civilian chopper with the name West Palm Beach air service on the tail rotor boom.”

“We walked to the fire and a young man handed us cups of coffee. I had never seen the men before. Soon the door to one of the Quonsets swung open and four men emerged. As they moved into the circle of firelight I recognized Gordon Campbell. I had seen him only a few times since my brief meeting with him, but had been impressed with his polished, slightly flamboyant executive manner. I caught my breath at the appearance of the second man. It was the attorney general, Robert Kennedy.”

“The four men talked in low voices for a few minutes, and then the attorney general came over and shook hands with each of us, wishing us good luck and God’s speed on our mission.”

“Hell, I didn’t even know what my mission was. His white teeth flashed and sparkled, and I felt a strange sense of strength and resolve when he grasped my hand. Then he and one of the Cubans went to the civilian helicopter, an din minutes it took off. Now I understood the need for extra secrecy. If the president felt strongly enough to send his brother, something very big was being planned.”

“When the helicopter was gone, the deputy chief of station came over….he said, ‘The reason we’ve got you here and the reason for all the secrecy is that we just got the green light from upstairs to go ahead on some missions we’ve been planning for some time.’”

“We entered the Quonset….Campbell closed the door behind us and turned to face me. ‘We’re very pleased with the way you’ve handled the training setup for the station so far, and we’ve made that known to your people at the Pentagon. We know it hasn’t been easy for you and your family….You’ll be happy to know that the Special Group has finally given us permission to use two-man submarines to strike Castro’s ships in the harbors. Some of your UDT people will be involved in that. And next week Rip’s boys are going to Elgin for parachute training, so an airborne commando raid may not be far off. But right now we’ve got the go-ahead to hit one of the major oil refineries from on the island. All we’ve got to do is get a commando force in shape to do the job.”

Chilling, especially when you think how it all went wrong. The expression on RFK's face, when LBJ gave his first state of the union address. The man he hated the most was now President, giving a speech on his brother, about whose death Robert had complicity, albeit unknowingly, at the time.

With this information out in recent books, I wonder if the Kennedy family will ever admit to a plan overseen by Robert Kennedy to kill Castro that backfired.

Kathy

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Here's What Brad Ayers has to say about RFK at JM/WAVE:

The Zenith Secret – A CIA Insider Exposes the Secret War Against Cuba and the Plot that Killed the Kennedy Brothers, by Bradley E. Ayers (Vox Pop/Drench Kiss Media Corportation, 1022 Corelyou Road, Brooklyn, NY 11218. [www.voxpopnet.net]

.........

Chilling, especially when you think how it all went wrong. The expression on RFK's face, when LBJ gave his first state of the union address. The man he hated the most was now President, giving a speech on his brother, about whose death Robert had complicity, albeit unknowingly, at the time.

With this information out in recent books, I wonder if the Kennedy family will ever admit to a plan overseen by Robert Kennedy to kill Castro that backfired.

Kathy

Kathy, the plans "overseen by Robert Kennedy," that we know about so far - and approved by his Special Group Augmented - include economic sabatog, parachute commandos, oil rig demolitions, - where's the "plot to kill Castro that backfired."

While I am no fan of RFK and don't consider him a candidate for sainthood, I don't see him ordering a hit team to Cuba to kill Castro.

Roselli talks about it to lawyer Ed Morgan and Jack Anderson, Fitzgerald claimes it in convincing Cubans to try to kill Castro, Helms repeats it to Kiss Kiss, and the National Security Archives repeats it as fact, but there doesn't seem to be a basis in fact for RFK's intention and orders to anyone to kill Castro.

Of course you get an entirely different picture of reality if you just read Kissinger, Lansdale, Ramsey Clark, Gus Russo and Lamar Waldron, all Kennedy haters who are trying to pin the tail on the donkey, while blindfolded.

BK

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Here's What Brad Ayers has to say about RFK at JM/WAVE:

The Zenith Secret – A CIA Insider Exposes the Secret War Against Cuba and the Plot that Killed the Kennedy Brothers, by Bradley E. Ayers (Vox Pop/Drench Kiss Media Corportation, 1022 Corelyou Road, Brooklyn, NY 11218. [www.voxpopnet.net]

.........

Chilling, especially when you think how it all went wrong. The expression on RFK's face, when LBJ gave his first state of the union address. The man he hated the most was now President, giving a speech on his brother, about whose death Robert had complicity, albeit unknowingly, at the time.

With this information out in recent books, I wonder if the Kennedy family will ever admit to a plan overseen by Robert Kennedy to kill Castro that backfired.

Kathy

Kathy, the plans "overseen by Robert Kennedy," that we know about so far - and approved by his Special Group Augmented - include economic sabatog, parachute commandos, oil rig demolitions, - where's the "plot to kill Castro that backfired."

While I am no fan of RFK and don't consider him a candidate for sainthood, I don't see him ordering a hit team to Cuba to kill Castro.

Roselli talks about it to lawyer Ed Morgan and Jack Anderson, Fitzgerald claimes it in convincing Cubans to try to kill Castro, Helms repeats it to Kiss Kiss, and the National Security Archives repeats it as fact, but there doesn't seem to be a basis in fact for RFK's intention and orders to anyone to kill Castro.

Of course you get an entirely different picture of reality if you just read Kissinger, Lansdale, Ramsey Clark, Gus Russo and Lamar Waldron, all Kennedy haters who are trying to pin the tail on the donkey, while blindfolded.

BK

And after scanning 700 + pages without finding one that mentions RFK's operations to kill Castro, it appears that Dr. Kiss was repeating the CIA director's hearsay about RFK and Castro plots in order to ensure that the records remained sealed.

This was the same tactic used to keep the MLK records of the HSCA and DOD After Action Reports sealed, - because they contained reports of King's hanky panky with white women.

If anyone reading these recently released pages of the Family Jewels actually comes across a reference to RFK and Castro assassination plots, please share.

BK

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Here's What Brad Ayers has to say about RFK at JM/WAVE:

The Zenith Secret – A CIA Insider Exposes the Secret War Against Cuba and the Plot that Killed the Kennedy Brothers, by Bradley E. Ayers (Vox Pop/Drench Kiss Media Corportation, 1022 Corelyou Road, Brooklyn, NY 11218. [www.voxpopnet.net]

.........

Chilling, especially when you think how it all went wrong. The expression on RFK's face, when LBJ gave his first state of the union address. The man he hated the most was now President, giving a speech on his brother, about whose death Robert had complicity, albeit unknowingly, at the time.

With this information out in recent books, I wonder if the Kennedy family will ever admit to a plan overseen by Robert Kennedy to kill Castro that backfired.

Kathy

Kathy, the plans "overseen by Robert Kennedy," that we know about so far - and approved by his Special Group Augmented - include economic sabatog, parachute commandos, oil rig demolitions, - where's the "plot to kill Castro that backfired."

While I am no fan of RFK and don't consider him a candidate for sainthood, I don't see him ordering a hit team to Cuba to kill Castro.

Roselli talks about it to lawyer Ed Morgan and Jack Anderson, Fitzgerald claimes it in convincing Cubans to try to kill Castro, Helms repeats it to Kiss Kiss, and the National Security Archives repeats it as fact, but there doesn't seem to be a basis in fact for RFK's intention and orders to anyone to kill Castro.

Of course you get an entirely different picture of reality if you just read Kissinger, Lansdale, Ramsey Clark, Gus Russo and Lamar Waldron, all Kennedy haters who are trying to pin the tail on the donkey, while blindfolded.

BK

And after scanning 700 + pages without finding one that mentions RFK's operations to kill Castro, it appears that Dr. Kiss was repeating the CIA director's hearsay about RFK and Castro plots in order to ensure that the records remained sealed.

This was the same tactic used to keep the MLK records of the HSCA and DOD After Action Reports sealed, - because they contained reports of King's hanky panky with white women.

If anyone reading these recently released pages of the Family Jewels actually comes across a reference to RFK and Castro assassination plots, please share.

BK

Then what was your point in posting those excerpts about Bobby Kennedy if he had nothing to do with assassinating Castro?

Kathy

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Here's What Brad Ayers has to say about RFK at JM/WAVE:

The Zenith Secret – A CIA Insider Exposes the Secret War Against Cuba and the Plot that Killed the Kennedy Brothers, by Bradley E. Ayers (Vox Pop/Drench Kiss Media Corportation, 1022 Corelyou Road, Brooklyn, NY 11218. [www.voxpopnet.net]

.........

Chilling, especially when you think how it all went wrong. The expression on RFK's face, when LBJ gave his first state of the union address. The man he hated the most was now President, giving a speech on his brother, about whose death Robert had complicity, albeit unknowingly, at the time.

With this information out in recent books, I wonder if the Kennedy family will ever admit to a plan overseen by Robert Kennedy to kill Castro that backfired.

Kathy

Kathy, the plans "overseen by Robert Kennedy," that we know about so far - and approved by his Special Group Augmented - include economic sabatog, parachute commandos, oil rig demolitions, - where's the "plot to kill Castro that backfired."

While I am no fan of RFK and don't consider him a candidate for sainthood, I don't see him ordering a hit team to Cuba to kill Castro.

Roselli talks about it to lawyer Ed Morgan and Jack Anderson, Fitzgerald claimes it in convincing Cubans to try to kill Castro, Helms repeats it to Kiss Kiss, and the National Security Archives repeats it as fact, but there doesn't seem to be a basis in fact for RFK's intention and orders to anyone to kill Castro.

Of course you get an entirely different picture of reality if you just read Kissinger, Lansdale, Ramsey Clark, Gus Russo and Lamar Waldron, all Kennedy haters who are trying to pin the tail on the donkey, while blindfolded.

BK

And after scanning 700 + pages without finding one that mentions RFK's operations to kill Castro, it appears that Dr. Kiss was repeating the CIA director's hearsay about RFK and Castro plots in order to ensure that the records remained sealed.

This was the same tactic used to keep the MLK records of the HSCA and DOD After Action Reports sealed, - because they contained reports of King's hanky panky with white women.

If anyone reading these recently released pages of the Family Jewels actually comes across a reference to RFK and Castro assassination plots, please share.

BK

Then what was your point in posting those excerpts about Bobby Kennedy if he had nothing to do with assassinating Castro?

Kathy

Kathy,

Did you read the excerpts?

Bradley Ayers doesn't say anything about Bobby and killing Castro, that's Roselli talking.

Bradley Ayers says that RFK approved the economic sabatoge operations, the paratroop operations, etc., nothing about killing Castro.

Kissinger says Helms said the Family Jewels has RFK trying to kill Castro, but now we're reading the Family Jewels and there's nothing there about RFK killing Castro.

There's RFK saying stuff like, "If you go out and hire the mafia to kill Castro in exchange for wiretapping some girlfriend Vegas bedroom, I hope you'll tell the Attorney General about it," but nothing about RFK ordering maritime missions to Cuba to kill Castro, like Kiss said there was, and Helms and Lansdale and Ramsey Clark said there was. "Blood will flow in the streets." BS.

Where's the smoking gun documnents on this? They don't exist, because if they did we'd have them by now. Just like EHH having to fake JFK and Diem coup docs. If they existed, he wouldn't have had to fake them.

They tease us for years, float a balloon days before the release of the Family Jewels, and then when they're released - nothing there. Where's the beef?

The Kennedys must be censoring it.

BK

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I may take some flak for this, but...

Much as I don't want to believe it, there seems to be a lot of evidence that Jack and Bobby really wanted the CIA to "do something" about Castro, or even "get rid of" him, and that both may have been aware of plots to harm him.

It seems that a large number of knowledgable CIA people indicate that at least Bobby was aware of at least some of the plots and gave some measure of approval. This dates as far back as the CIA IG report of 1967. CIA people suggest that, while there is no existing paper approval, it was understood by CIA that this was what Bobby wanted.The CIA people say that they are loathe be the one to go on record as saying Bobby approved it. Even LBJ said the Kennedys were trying to get Castro.

It sems to me that, in the face of all these recollections, it would be hard to be certain that Bobby did not give some sort of consent to what went on. I wish it were not true, but I wouldn't blame Bobby, given the tenor of the times.

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According to someone who was there at the time but wants to remain anonymous, in the early summer of 1963, a detailed and apparently workable plan was presented to Robert Kennedy by Tony Izquierdo. It was essentially designed to 'get Cuba back' and this was to be done with the assassinations of Fidel Castro, Raul Castro and Che Guevara.

Supposedly this plan had the support of some Agency case officers and was also proposed to see how serious the administration was about dealing with the 'problem in Cuba'.

Anyway, the plan was rejected which apparently made some folk quite angry.

Just thought I would throw it into the mix for what ever it is worth.

James

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Here's What Brad Ayers has to say about RFK at JM/WAVE:

The Zenith Secret – A CIA Insider Exposes the Secret War Against Cuba and the Plot that Killed the Kennedy Brothers, by Bradley E. Ayers (Vox Pop/Drench Kiss Media Corportation, 1022 Corelyou Road, Brooklyn, NY 11218. [www.voxpopnet.net]

.........

Chilling, especially when you think how it all went wrong. The expression on RFK's face, when LBJ gave his first state of the union address. The man he hated the most was now President, giving a speech on his brother, about whose death Robert had complicity, albeit unknowingly, at the time.

With this information out in recent books, I wonder if the Kennedy family will ever admit to a plan overseen by Robert Kennedy to kill Castro that backfired.

Kathy

Kathy, the plans "overseen by Robert Kennedy," that we know about so far - and approved by his Special Group Augmented - include economic sabatog, parachute commandos, oil rig demolitions, - where's the "plot to kill Castro that backfired."

While I am no fan of RFK and don't consider him a candidate for sainthood, I don't see him ordering a hit team to Cuba to kill Castro.

Roselli talks about it to lawyer Ed Morgan and Jack Anderson, Fitzgerald claimes it in convincing Cubans to try to kill Castro, Helms repeats it to Kiss Kiss, and the National Security Archives repeats it as fact, but there doesn't seem to be a basis in fact for RFK's intention and orders to anyone to kill Castro.

Of course you get an entirely different picture of reality if you just read Kissinger, Lansdale, Ramsey Clark, Gus Russo and Lamar Waldron, all Kennedy haters who are trying to pin the tail on the donkey, while blindfolded.

BK

And after scanning 700 + pages without finding one that mentions RFK's operations to kill Castro, it appears that Dr. Kiss was repeating the CIA director's hearsay about RFK and Castro plots in order to ensure that the records remained sealed.

This was the same tactic used to keep the MLK records of the HSCA and DOD After Action Reports sealed, - because they contained reports of King's hanky panky with white women.

If anyone reading these recently released pages of the Family Jewels actually comes across a reference to RFK and Castro assassination plots, please share.

BK

Then what was your point in posting those excerpts about Bobby Kennedy if he had nothing to do with assassinating Castro?

Kathy

Kathy,

Did you read the excerpts?

Bradley Ayers doesn't say anything about Bobby and killing Castro, that's Roselli talking.

Bradley Ayers says that RFK approved the economic sabatoge operations, the paratroop operations, etc., nothing about killing Castro.

Kissinger says Helms said the Family Jewels has RFK trying to kill Castro, but now we're reading the Family Jewels and there's nothing there about RFK killing Castro.

There's RFK saying stuff like, "If you go out and hire the mafia to kill Castro in exchange for wiretapping some girlfriend Vegas bedroom, I hope you'll tell the Attorney General about it," but nothing about RFK ordering maritime missions to Cuba to kill Castro, like Kiss said there was, and Helms and Lansdale and Ramsey Clark said there was. "Blood will flow in the streets." BS.

Where's the smoking gun documnents on this? They don't exist, because if they did we'd have them by now. Just like EHH having to fake JFK and Diem coup docs. If they existed, he wouldn't have had to fake them.

They tease us for years, float a balloon days before the release of the Family Jewels, and then when they're released - nothing there. Where's the beef?

The Kennedys must be censoring it.

BK

Sorry, Bill. I did miss what you said in your post. Maybe I could use a rest. Tomorrow I'll rent a charter boat from Donald O. Norton...

Kathy

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Guest Gary Loughran
According to someone who was there at the time but wants to remain anonymous, in the early summer of 1963, a detailed and apparently workable plan was presented to Robert Kennedy by Tony Izquierdo. It was essentially designed to 'get Cuba back' and this was to be done with the assassinations of Fidel Castro, Raul Castro and Che Guevara.

Supposedly this plan had the support of some Agency case officers and was also proposed to see how serious the administration was about dealing with the 'problem in Cuba'.

Anyway, the plan was rejected which apparently made some folk quite angry.

Just thought I would throw it into the mix for what ever it is worth.

James

It's worth quite a bit James as you well know ;)

So not only are some folk angry about BOP this is now fomented by what is seen as 'being lead down the garden path' by the administration - who were at the time giving mixed signals to the anti-Castro crowd. The administration failed the test, the rest is history.

Whilst I've read about the many plans devised to assassinate Castro, this one seems much more significant when one considers the messenger, the support of agency case officers (the usual suspects I presume Morales, Robertston etc.) and the extent of the plan they had in mind. A rejection of this plan could very well be viewed as the last straw, thus changing the object of the assasination plan, IMO.

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