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Depatron Service : The Italian Connection & the Carcano Rifle


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Hi all.

Take the occasion to thank John Simkin for the access.

I am the author of the Ansa reportage at Terni about the Carcano. Premise: I am not a conspiracy, nor a LN, theorist.

Write here as an individual, nothing to do with my work - journalist for Ansa.

Someone has an idea about this ''Depatron service''?

It is the service , look at video 5, Italian minister of Defense Andreotti asked a report on the rifle.

It is the same service wrote: "the rifle in the pictures is a 7.35".

Forsure it is an Italian service. It could be a way of coding from FBI or CIA in Rome.

Thanks for your attention.

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Ciao Claudio,

questo 'Depatron' service e molto interessante! I have not heard it before but seeing as it appears connected to William Harvey I am intrigued! Soon I will translate the video you made which talks of the Depatron service I just haven't had a chance to do it yet. But I did look on the Mary Ferrell site and searched for any documents on 'Depatron' but it came back with nothing. (ho guardato sul sito di Mary Ferrell che ha molti documenti sul caso e ho fatto un 'search' per qualsiasi documento che parla del 'Depatron', ma non c'era niente.)

However, I also did a search under Presland' and quite a few documents about 'Daniel Presland come up. (ho trovato documenti che parlano di Daniel Presland'). Going off topic a bit, there are quite a few which seem to show Presland aka Harvey had dealings with QJ/WIN which I thought interesting.

I will try and post some later. I don't have time to find them again now as I'm off to the seaside today, on what may be the only day of summer we get. Quite a shock to wake up today and find it actually hot and sunny in August. ......

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Ciao Claudio,

questo 'Depatron' service e molto interessante! I have not heard it before but seeing as it appears connected to William Harvey I am intrigued! Soon I will translate the video you made which talks of the Depatron service

Francesca,

This is splendid - can you explain to me what the Depatron service was; and how it connects to Harvey?

A further couple of questions: when did Harvey arrive in Rome and what did he do while there?

Paul

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Ciao Claudio,

questo 'Depatron' service e molto interessante! I have not heard it before but seeing as it appears connected to William Harvey I am intrigued! Soon I will translate the video you made which talks of the Depatron service

Francesca,

This is splendid - can you explain to me what the Depatron service was; and how it connects to Harvey?

A further couple of questions: when did Harvey arrive in Rome and what did he do while there?

Paul

MF, NAra, everything will give you no answers.

Harvey arrived in Rome in january 1963 - dont know the date exactly.

As you know, he was moved there after Helms intervention (RFK wanted him out of Cia, they say).

CE1977 is cited by WC report as the prove of Sifar confirmation about the fact the C2766 ''was unique'' in the world, with that kind of serial.

But, in many years, I found only a document (signed by Presland-Harvey) that talks about an italian inquiry on the rifle.

The italian minister of Defense Andreotti - said the dispatch - asked this report to "DEPATRON SERVICE".

The report talked of an 7.35 instead of 6.5 and so on...

Becouse Harvey suggested at the end to pass the report to Odenvy and Odfoam, it is clear Depatron Service is an italian service (that is why the document was deleted in parts, "not to reveal foreign services way of conduct").

More, it will be helpfull to know some more on Harvey activities in Rome:

was he linked to Demagnetize plan?

had he a role in Gladio/Stay Behind forces build up, and in the Nasco boxes (full of guns) sent to allow counterinsougency measures in case of Urss invasion?

And, why some documents from Rome are still postponed or in ''1A-1B" classification?

lol, forget to say on QJWIN.

He was reported to have some business with an italian crime figure - Aldo Barletta - in Milan, north of italy.

They spoke about some burglring, in a cassaforte somewhere...

Harvey stayed in Rome also after he went out of Cia. He was friend of Filippo Sacco-Roselli, and... i dont think actually Sacco was born in Esperia, but somewhere else :)

ciao

Edited by Accogli Claudio
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MF, NAra, everything will give you no answers.

Sounds just like British archives...

Harvey arrived in Rome in january 1963 - dont know the date exactly. As you know, he was moved there after Helms intervention (RFK wanted him out of Cia, they say)...More, it will be helpfull to know some more on Harvey activities in Rome: was he linked to Demagnetize plan? Had he a role in Gladio/Stay Behind forces build up, and in the Nasco boxes (full of guns) sent to allow counterinsougency measures in case of Urss invasion?

And so RFK did, sir, but the last place on earth he would have wanted WKH was in Italy as the Kennedy-inspired apertura a sinistra was in finely balanced motion. Was Harvey sent there to help co-ordinate its sabotage? I struggle to see what other value he had in Rome: his particular expertise was not in the field of paramilitary/Gladio actions, as far as I understand his career, but political sabotage. (Thinking aloud, however, was Harvey mixed up in the German gladio ops exposed in 52-53? Can't remember...)

CE1977 is cited by WC report as the prove of Sifar confirmation about the fact the C2766 ''was unique'' in the world, with that kind of serial.

But, in many years, I found only a document (signed by Presland-Harvey) that talks about an italian inquiry on the rifle.

The italian minister of Defense Andreotti...

You mean the Andreotti?

Delighted to get an Italian viewpoint: please stick around!

Paul

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Ciao Claudio,

questo 'Depatron' service e molto interessante! I have not heard it before but seeing as it appears connected to William Harvey I am intrigued! Soon I will translate the video you made which talks of the Depatron service

Francesca,

This is splendid - can you explain to me what the Depatron service was; and how it connects to Harvey?

A further couple of questions: when did Harvey arrive in Rome and what did he do while there?

Paul

I think Claudio beat me to it Also he knows more about it than me. I never really looked into Harvey and his Italian connections to the case. Guess I should do. I always tended to be more interested in the Cubans though for some reason and why they always have to have such long names. :-).

Good post Claudio thanks! I didn't realise that Harvey had connections to other Italian crime figures. I saw Aldo Barletta's name mentioned in one of the documents on the MF site. I 'll find them and post links to the relevant ones. Do you know whereabouts in Milan he was operating? I have relatives there who've lived in the area for over 40 years- perhaps they would know something more about this story.

I hope to get to the Depatron video soon to do the transcript!

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lol, forget to say on QJWIN.

He was reported to have some business with an italian crime figure - Aldo Barletta - in Milan, north of italy.

They spoke about some burglring, in a cassaforte somewhere..

I just found some more details on Barletta relating to Milan: seems he worked for a ceramics firm in Milan but this was used as a cover for illegal activity:

Wonder who 'Besta' is?

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=2

By the way - anyone know who/what ODFOAM is?

Edited by Francesca Akhtar
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Today I was reading from John Prados Bio of William Colby, Lost Crusade; it also made me think about Harvey in Rome. Funny thing how many books emphasise him coming back to the US for some visits with Rosselli. But what I read today for the first time that Rome was may not have been banishment but an important node in the conspiracy. ( In some ways like Helms in Iran after 1973, working with Shak in Langley behind 2 directors' backs?)

Prados emphasises that when Colby got to Italy, in 1956? he took a different approach than had Angleton when he was in Rome. He says that Angleton still had his finger in the pie and worked with Ambassador Clare Booth Luce to support far right groups (he doesn't mention P2, but could be implying it, so as not to become vulgar).

Prados depicts Colby as favoring an approach to stregnthen the center in a coalition with some of the socialists, if they left thier coalition with the Italian communists. He also says that Colby found several instances of Angleton having direct contact with old associates in Italy, and these reports "were bing pouched direct to Washington, outside embasy and even CIA channels. That was a typical Angleton touch" (p. 57)

Might this direct line to Angleton have been used in some way when Harvey was sent to Rome in January 1963? Would it have been useful somehow in

maintaing compartmentalization, but a partial convergence of the Oswald dangle and the CIA's Castro assassination plan?

Prados suggests that the dispute between Angleton and Colby had some long running implications:

There is no evidence that COlby and Angleton began to war against each other at this stage, but there would be other times

that they crossed swords. A growing antipathy betweeen Colby and Angleton would ahve repercussions in Southeast Asia

and Washington. Moreover, the view on counteitelligence that Colby developed, whih later had a striong impacto on CIA

practice, were conditioned by his dislike for Angleton. Those sore began to fester in Rome, where not everything was

la dolce vita (p. 57

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There's a book on Harvey that went out in 2006 and gave some more informations.

Unfortunately was not translated in italian. And also was censored.

By the way: what I recall is that Barletta worked for QJWIN for his personal business (somewhere you can find a sort of permission).

they talked of a cassaforte to open, for stealing documents. They met in a bar in Milan, and QJWIN reported the meeting.

Gladio/Stay Behind.

This is not ''paramilitary forces''. These were counter-insurgency forces, modelled later on Landsdale project. So infiltrate people, provocate incidents..

But the project to investigate is ''DEMAGNETIZE"" a Cia-Sifar program to stop center-left way to government (created in late '50 by De Lorenzo and Walters or Karamessines). Vernon Walthers was reported to treat a Us invasion in 1960 in case of center-left government (in 1960 there was the Tambroni one).

Andreotti,

yes, the same minister of Defense that in 1959 gave the ok to the ''Carcano traffic''.

Then, he was re-elected in the same role in 1962 and in 1963 (in the center-left government led by Aldo Moro and supported by Nenni).

Mlf

A good point to start in viewing Jfk policy effects in Europe is the Multilateral Force, and the nuclear problem. But this is really off topic. One day will open a post.

Cia Station Rome

That is correct. Schlesinger gave more details: in '56-'59 there were light apertures of Langley to the center-left. Infact Jfk found some of that analysis in the dossier about Italy he received not late than february 1961.

After '59, Rome came back to the ancient positions built by the X-2 man, JJA. In '59 also, Sifar began collecting illegal dossiers on politicinas and people... 157.000 dossiers were found.... yes it was quite the same period of the start of HTLingual....

(francesca, ODFOAM is cia, Odenvy Fbi, or the opposite.. dont remember well :D)

ciao

Edited by Accogli Claudio
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The fact that the report refers to the rifle as a 7.35 recalls the claim of Robert Morrow that the CIA's Tracy Barnes had him purchase "four Mannlicher 7.35 mm surplus rifles" (First Hand Knowledge, p. 204). Three were delivered. Oswald's of course was 6.5 mm. Twyman writes, "This can be partially explained by the fact that the manufacturer had re-barreled the 7.35 mm model with 6.5 mm barrel because there was a plentiful supply of 6.5 mm ammunition" (Bloody Treason p. 618). I suppose it would still look like a 7.35 in photos.

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The fact that the report refers to the rifle as a 7.35 recalls the claim of Robert Morrow that the CIA's Tracy Barnes had him purchase "four Mannlicher 7.35 mm surplus rifles" (First Hand Knowledge, p. 204). Three were delivered. Oswald's of course was 6.5 mm. Twyman writes, "This can be partially explained by the fact that the manufacturer had re-barreled the 7.35 mm model with 6.5 mm barrel because there was a plentiful supply of 6.5 mm ammunition" (Bloody Treason p. 618). I suppose it would still look like a 7.35 in photos.

this is a big issue: 7.35 were originally created in late '30, but due to the lack of ammunition were reconverted by the italian Factories in the years later.

7.35 remained with the cal. just for Moschetto del duce, about 10.000 pieces.

Also, Carlo Riva ''shortened some barrels'', but did not reconvert them.

7.35 and 6.5 look like identical: you can only understand the caliber reading what is stamped on the rifle.

TS Moschetto 91 7.35 instead... is 4 inches short than the 91/38.... it is 36 inches long (:D) and 3,26 in weight...

On video 3, the italian expert say: the Carcano was the only gun in the world with the serial on the barrel.

So, if someone changed it, should change also the serial number...

Edited by Accogli Claudio
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Guest Stephen Turner
Gladio/Stay Behind.

This is not ''paramilitary forces''. These were counter-insurgency forces, modelled later on Landsdale project. So infiltrate people, provocate incidents..

But the project to investigate is ''DEMAGNETIZE"" a Cia-Sifar program to stop center-left way to government (created in late '50 by De Lorenzo and Walters or Karamessines). Vernon Walthers was reported to treat a Us invasion in 1960 in case of center-left government (in 1960 there was the Tambroni one).

ciao

Accogli, welcome. I started a thread on strategy of tension/stay behind/Gladio, on the political conspiracies forum. Be good to have your thoughts.

Steve.

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(francesca, ODFOAM is cia, Odenvy Fbi, or the opposite.. dont remember well :D)

Grazie mille! It must be ODFOAM is the CIA as I remember ODENVY is FBI. Hm.....then did they have two codes for referring to themselves? I thought 'KUBARK' was CIA? Or is that referring to a specific department of the agency?

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some corrections:

A) it cant be known the exact number of 7.35 producted in Italy

B) in 1959 were sold some 7.35 to Adam Consolidated, also with 6.5 and the C2766

C) Moschetto del duce were designed for Mussolini personal guard, and had some particular things - color black and so on.

Add a picture of a 7.35 advert in Us in late '50s

Going back to Depatron service... this could be a sort of crypt... or it could be the result of a ''sanitization''??

How could some researchers in the past have a look to some papers from Rome (like the one on Browder traffic in 1958 in Victoria Hotel of Rome) describing the text, if these papers are still classified or ''referred postponed'' at Nara?

ri-ciao

ca

post-5727-1186421935_thumb.jpg

Edited by Accogli Claudio
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Today I was reading from John Prados Bio of William Colby, Lost Crusade; it also made me think about Harvey in Rome. Funny thing how many books emphasise him coming back to the US for some visits with Rosselli. But what I read today for the first time that Rome was may not have been banishment but an important node in the conspiracy. ( In some ways like Helms in Iran after 1973, working with Shak in Langley behind 2 directors' backs?)

Prados emphasises that when Colby got to Italy, in 1956? he took a different approach than had Angleton when he was in Rome. He says that Angleton still had his finger in the pie and worked with Ambassador Clare Booth Luce to support far right groups (he doesn't mention P2, but could be implying it, so as not to become vulgar).

Prados depicts Colby as favoring an approach to stregnthen the center in a coalition with some of the socialists, if they left thier coalition with the Italian communists. He also says that Colby found several instances of Angleton having direct contact with old associates in Italy, and these reports "were bing pouched direct to Washington, outside embasy and even CIA channels. That was a typical Angleton touch" (p. 57)

Might this direct line to Angleton have been used in some way when Harvey was sent to Rome in January 1963? Would it have been useful somehow in

maintaing compartmentalization, but a partial convergence of the Oswald dangle and the CIA's Castro assassination plan?

Prados suggests that the dispute between Angleton and Colby had some long running implications:

There is no evidence that COlby and Angleton began to war against each other at this stage, but there would be other times

that they crossed swords. A growing antipathy betweeen Colby and Angleton would ahve repercussions in Southeast Asia

and Washington. Moreover, the view on counteitelligence that Colby developed, whih later had a striong impacto on CIA

practice, were conditioned by his dislike for Angleton. Those sore began to fester in Rome, where not everything was

la dolce vita (p. 57

Hi Nathaniel,

thanks for an informaive post. I'd of course forgotten about Colby and Angleton's links to Rome. I think you may well be right about Italy being more important than perhaps appears, in the case.

I didn't realise that QJ/WIN seems to have had 'assignments' linking him to Rome. I found this rather interesting document (note it is still redacted in parts):

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=1

I am wondering who this American contact in Rome would have been? I know Harvey didn't officially arrive there til 63 but is it possible that he may have been making 'unofficial' visits there before then? It seems the type of shadowy business he might have had a hand in but not being that knowledgeable about him I don't know. It does seem that there were some strange 'goings on' there in the lead up to 63, involving Harvey, and QJ/WIN among others.

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