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"No Evidence of Conspiracy" Ha!


Tim Gratz
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It is clear, is it not, my friends, that if CE399 was planted in Parkland Hospital by anyone then the assassination WAS indeed a conspiracy.

I just looked at the 1988 Nova program on the assassination courtesy of You Tube. In Part II re "The Single Bullet Theory" Darrell Tomlinson tells CBS that he found CE399 on a stretcher that was NOT--I repeat NOT--connected with the assassination (i.e. it was not a stetcher that had been used to transport EITHER Kennedy or Connally).

If Tomlinson was correct, then ergo, the bullet must have been planted. Thus a conspiracy. The planting of the bullet if it occured establishes beyond ANY doubt a conspiracy.

According to Nova (I have not yet reviewed it) the HSCA simply concluded that Tomklinson was mistaken. I suspect the HSCA may have relied largely on the NAA.

Bugliosi places great emphasis on the NAA. He writes: Guinn's "most important conclusion by far, scientifically defeating the notion that the bullet found on Connally's stretcher had been planted, was that the elemental compisition and concentration of trace elements of the three bullet fragments removed from Governor Connally's wrist matched those of . . .the stretcher bullet." ("Reclaiming History", page 814.)

Of course, as we all know, a new scientific study MAY disprove the NAA and thus destroy the conclusion that the Connally bullet fragments came from the stretcher bullet. (And of course there are other reasons e.g. the "relatively pristine" condition of CE 399 to doubt the NAA even absent the new scientific analysis.) Bugliosi can of course be forgiven for not discussing the refutation of the NAA since his book was in print before the new study was important.

BUT--and this I think is VERY important--and least from my reading of VB, at least in the book itself, he completely ignores Tomlinson's statement and flat out asserts the bullet came from Connally's stretcher (apparently because it CAN be demonstrated it did not come from Kennedy's stretcher).

NOW if it did NOT come from Kennedy's stretcher, it either came from Connally's or, as Tomlinson maintains, from a stretcher not connected with the case.

Is the case for conspiracy then as simple as this: unless Darrell Tomlinson was MISTAKEN about where he found CE399, it was PLANTED and thus there MUST have been a conaspiracy presumably beyond ANY doubt!

If I am missing something in this analysis, let me know.

Now if VB was presenting a fair discussion of the case, should he not have discussed the controversy surrounding where Tomlinson found the bullet and then argued that because of points (he'd probably come up with at least 20) Tomilinson had to be mistaken?

I also suggest that IF Tomlinson was right, that should have told us the NAA analysis was WRONG. The reasoning for this is as follows: Tomlinson states the bullet did not come from Connally's stretcher but the NAA shows that the stretcher bullet matched the fragments in Connally. Hence, Tomlinson HAD to be wrong. But if we ASSUME Tomlinson was correct, then the Guinn NAA analysis HAD to be wrong. Any scientific analysis that falsifies a fact known to be true must be in error. Thus, if we assume Tomlinson was right, it means not only that the bullet was planted but also that the NAA HAD to be wrong.

I understand law enforcement is now beginning to doubt the 100% reliability of fingerprint evidence. If you were an innocent person convicted of a crime based solely on the existence of your fingerprints at the crime scene, YOU would know beyond ANY doubt that unless your fingerprints were planted, the "scientific" identification of those fingerprints as yours HAD to be in error.

If Bugliosi redoes his book, he ought to add a caveat at the very outset:

IF (AND ONLY IF) THE NEW ATTACK ON THE RELIABILITY OF THE NAA IS CORRECT, AND ALSO IF (AND ONLY IF) DARRELL TOMLINSON WAS CORRECT RE WHERE HE FOUND CE 399, THEN THERE INDEED WAS A CONSPIRACY BEYOND ALMOST ANY DOUBT AND THEREFORE ALL OF MY ANTI-CONSPIRACY ARGUMENTS MUST BE IN ERROR.

Note, of course, I think VB was right in his reasoning in rejecting certain conspiracy theories (e.g. "the Secret Service participated") but although he does make some strong anti-conspiracy arguments, I am convinced his ultimate conclusion is false. Moreover, as I discover how he plays loose with the facts (e.g. not even mentioning in the book itself what Tomlinson said) it is easier to doubt the rest of his arguments.

But as long as we are on the bullet testimony, let us assume the SBT was wrong and let us further assume CE399 was planted. VB raises these points and I would appreciate comment on them:

1. If the bullet that struck Kennedy in the back did not pass through him and strike Connally, what happened to it?

2. If Connally did not receive a bullet that passed through Kennedy, then just how could he have been hit where he was hit?

Edited by Tim Gratz
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Is there ANY possibility that CE399 had entered JFK's back without for whatever reason transversing his body or hitting any bones or organs, and it did indeed fall out on Kennedy's stretcher? This would answer one of VB's arguments but is anyone aware of any evidence that CE399 could have been found on a stretcher that JFK had been on if only for a brief time?

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1. If the bullet that struck Kennedy in the back did not pass through him and strike Connally, what happened to it?

2. If Connally did not receive a bullet that passed through Kennedy, then just how could he have been hit where he was hit?

1. According to the FBI men at the autopsy, there was a "general feeling" among

the prosectors immediately following the autopsy that JFK was hit with blood soluble

rounds, a suspicion supported by the neck x-ray and the Zapruder film. This preceded

their becoming aware of the Magic Bullet-CE399-Q1, at which point their perceptions

became tainted by the political decision in Washington to blame a lone shooter/3-shots.

Personally, I go with first day first hand accounts, and I wonder why such are so

readily dismissed by so many.

2. The western corner of the TSBD 6th fl may have allowed the Connally shot.

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Well when Tomlinson was deposed by--guess who--during the WC hearings, he certainly seemed a LOT less sure where he found CE399 than he did on the 1988 Nova show:

Mr. Specter. Now, just before we started this deposition, before I placed you under oath and before the court reporter started to take down my questions and your answers, you and I had a brief talk, did we not?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And at the time we started our discussion, it was your recollection at that point that the bullet came off of stretcher A, was it not?

Mr. Tomlinson. B

Mr. Specter. Pardon me, stretcher B, but it was stretcher A that you took off of the elevator.

Mr. Tomlinson. I believe that’s right.

Mr. Specter. But there is no question but that at the time we started our discussion a few minutes before the court reporter started to take it down, that your best recollection was that it was stretcher A which came off of the elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes, I believe that it was—yes.

Mr. Specter. Have you been interviewed about this matter by any other Federal representative?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Who interviewed you about it?

Mr. Tomlinson. I don’t remember the name of either one of them, but one was the FBI and one was the Secret Service man.

Mr. Specter. How many times did the FBI interview you?

Mr. Tomlinson. Once.

Mr. Specter. How many times did the Secret Service interview you?

Mr. Tomlinson. Once.

Mr. Specter. When did the FBI interview you?

Mr. Tomlinson. I believe they were the first to do it.

Mr. Specter. Approximately when was that?

Mr. Tomlinson. I think that was the latter part of November.

Mr. Specter. And when did the Secret Service interview you?

Mr. Tomlinson. Approximately a week later, the first part of December.

Mr. Specter. Now, do you recollect what the FBI man asked you about?

Mr. Tomlinson. Just about where I found the bullet.

Mr. Specter. Did he ask you about these stretchers?

Mr. Tomlinson. Well, he asked me about the stretchers, yes, just about the same thing we’ve gone over here.

Mr. Specter. What did the Secret Service man ask you about?

Mr. Tomlinson. Approximately the same thing, only, we’ve gone into more detail here.

Mr. Specter. What did you tell the Secret Service man about which stretcher you took off of the elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. I told him that I was not sure, and I am not—I’m not sure of it, but as I said, I would be going against the oath which I took a while ago, because I am definitely not sure.

Mr. Specter. Do you remember if you told the Secret Service man which stretcher you thought you took off of the elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. Well, we talked about taking a stretcher off of the elevator. but when it comes down on an oath, I wouldn’t say for sure, I really don’t remember.

Mr. Specter. And do you recollect whether or not you told the Secret Service man which stretcher you took off of the elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. What do you mean?

Mr. Specter. You say you can’t really take an oath today to be sure whether it was stretcher A or stretcher B that you took off the elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. Well, today or any other day, I’m just not sure of it, whether it was A or B that I took off.

Mr. Specter. Well, has your recollection always been the same about the situation, that is, today, and when you talked to the Secret Service man and when you talked to the FBI man?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes; I told him that I wasn’t sure.

Mr. Specter. So, what you told the Secret Service man was just about the same thing as you have told me today?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. When I first started to ask you about this, Mr. Tomlinson, you initially identified stretcher A as the one which came off of the elevator car?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes; I think it’s just like that.

Mr. Specter. And, then, when—

Mr. Tomlinson (interrupting). Here’s the deal—I rolled that thing off, we got a call, and went to second floor, picked the man up and brought him down. He went on over across, to clear out of the emergency area, but across from it, and picked up two pints of, I believe it was, blood. He told me to hold for him, he had to get right back to the operating room, so I held, and the minute he hit there, we took off for the second floor and I came back to the ground. Now, I don’t know how many people went through that—I don’t know how many people hit them—I don’t know anything about what could have happened to them in between the time I was gone, and I made several trips before I discovered the bullet on the end of it there.

Mr. Specter. You think, then, that this could have been either, you took out of the elevator as you sit here at this moment, or you just can’t be sure?

Mr. Tomlinson. It could be, but I can’t be positive or positively sure—I think it was A, but I’m not sure.

Mr. Specter. That you took off of the elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Now, before I started to ask you questions under oath, which have been taken down here, I told you. did I not, that the Secret Service man wrote a report where he said that the bullet was found on the stretcher which you took off of the elevator—I called that to your attention, didn’t I?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes; you told me that.

Mr. Specter. Now, after I tell you that, does that have any effect on refreshing your recollection of what you told the Secret Service man?

Mr. Tomlinson. No; it really doesn’t—it really doesn’t.

Mr. Specter. So, would it be a fair summary to say that when I first started to talk to you about it, your first view was that the stretcher you took off of the elevator was stretcher A, and then I told you that the Secret Service man said it was—that you had said the stretcher you took off of the elevator was the one that you found the bullet off, and when we talked about the whole matter and talked over the entire situation, you really can’t be completely sure about which stretcher you took off of the elevator, because you didn’t push the stretcher that you took off of the elevator right against the wall at first?

Mr. Tomlinson. That’s right.

Mr. Specter. And, there was a lot of confusion that day, which is what you told me before?

Mr. Tomlinson. Absolutely. And now, honestly, I don’t remember telling him definitely—I know we talked about it, and I told him that it could have been. Now, he might have drawed his own conclusion on that.

Mr. Specter. You told the Secret Service agent that you didn’t know where—

Mr. Tomlinson (interrupting). He asked me if it could have been brought down from the second floor.

Mr. Specter. You got the stretcher from where the bullet came from, whether it was brought down from the second floor?

Mr. Tomlinson. It could have been—I’m not sure whether it was A I took off.

Mr. Specter. But did you tell the Secret Service man which one you thought it was you took off of the elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. I’m not clear on that—whether I absolutely made a positive statement to that effect.

Mr. Specter. You told him that it could have been B you took off of the elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. That’s right.

Mr. Specter. But you don’t remember whether you told him it was A you took off of the elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. I think it was A—I’m not really sure.

Mr. Specter. Which did you tell the Secret Service agent—that you thought it was A that you took off of the elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. Really, I couldn’t be real truthful in saying I told him this or that.

Mr. Specter. You just don’t remember for sure whether you told him you thought it was A or not?

Mr. Tomlinson. No, sir; I really don’t remember. I’m not accustomed to being questioned by the Secret Service and the FBI and by you and they are writing down everything, I mean.

Mr. Specter. That’s all right. I understand exactly what you are saying and I appreciate it and I really just want to get your best recollection.

We understand it isn’t easy to remember all that went on, on a day like November 22d, and that a man’s recollection is not perfect like every other part of a man, but I want you to tell me just what you remember, and that’s the best you can do today, and I appreciate that, and so does the President’s Commission, and that’s all we can ask a man.

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes, I’m going to tell you all I can, and I’m not going to tell you something I can’t lay down and sleep at night with either.

I REPEAT MY MAIN POINT: VB SHOULD HAVE MENTIONED THE CONTROVERSY ABOUT WHERE CE399 WAS FOUND, AND WHY IT WAS OF SUCH CRITICAL IMPORTANCE, AND HE THEN COULD HAVE USED TOMLINSON's WC TESTIMONY TO MINIMIZE THE CONFLICT.

MOREOVER DOES IT NOT SEEM QUITE CLEAR FROM THE FIRST FEW QUESTIONS THAT TOMLINSON SOFTENED HIS MEMORY RE WHERE HE FOUND THE BULLET AFTER SPECTOR HAD A "BRIEF TALK" WITH HIM BEFORE HIS TESTIMONY STARTED?

SPECTOR'S "BRIEF TALK" WITH TOMLINSON MAY HAVE CHANGED THE COURSE OF HISTORY!!

Edited by Tim Gratz
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Cliff, thank you for your quick and helpful response.

Re #1, most interesting! Do you have references to that? I also think your point about the "first day recollections" is quite good

Re #2, as many may be aware, Gerry Hemming claims there was a gunman firing from the west window of the sixth floor of the TSND, aimining ONLY at Connally. He does not believe anyone was shooting at JFK from the east window.

Has any expert opined whether Connally's wounds could have come from the west window given his position in SS100 at the time? Would he have been hit in the front or the rear?

Also do I correctly read the new challenge to the NAA that there could have been a group on MC bullets with the same composition? Does this mean, then, that the fragments in JC came from a MC bullet, whether or not it was the bullet that first hit JFK?

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Cliff, thank you for your quick and helpful response.

Re #1, most interesting! Do you have references to that? I also think your point about the "first day recollections" is quite good

Re #2, as many may be aware, Gerry Hemming claims there was a gunman firing from the west window of the sixth floor of the TSND, aimining ONLY at Connally. He does not believe anyone was shooting at JFK from the east window.

Has any expert opined whether Connally's wounds could have come from the west window given his position in SS100 at the time? Would he have been hit in the front or the rear?

Also do I correctly read the new challenge to the NAA that there could have been a group on MC bullets with the same composition? Does this mean, then, that the fragments in JC came from a MC bullet, whether or not it was the bullet that first hit JFK?

Tim, the angle through Connally was a little steeper than an angle from the SN, leading some to suspect he was shot from the West window. As the bullet was undoubtedly deflected upon entry, however, this is a stretch. A better argument for the West window might be made by noting the shape of Connally's back wound. Shaw said that the shape indicated the bullet came in at an angle. His words were twisted by others, including Baden, etc. to suggest Connally was hit by a tumbling bullet. Shaw believed no such thing. BTW, when one looks at the WC re-enactment photos, it's easy to see that a bullet passing just over Kennedy's right shoulder could very well hit Connally in his armpit. The oft-repeated argument that the bullet hitting Connally MUST have come through JFK is garbage.

FWIW, I believe the bullet was planted, but that it probably has little to do with a conspiracy to kill Kennedy. When one looks at the photos and reads the recollections of eyewitnesses, it's clear the SS cleaned up the limo outside Parkland. This is not mentioned in any report. The only bullet fragments found in the limo were found in the front seat, and beneath Nellie's seat. This makes me suspect evidence was collected outside Parkland, but was, for some reason, never entered into the record. Perhaps the two agents involved, Kinney and Hickey, realized they'd screwed up and compromised a crime scene and opted to just pretend it never happened. If so, they may have planted what they thought was important--CE 399--where someone else would find it, and hoped for the best. Kinney flew back with the limo to Washington, and supposedly discovered the large skull fragment on the floor of the car en route. This sounds like bs, as Kinney and Hickey admittedly put the top back on the car outside Parkland, and almost certainly noticed the skull fragment at that time. (Several newsman claimed to have seen the skull fragment in the back seat outside Parkland--so why wouldn't have Kinney?) Anyhow, it seems likely Kinney found the skull fragment during the clean-up and only pretended he'd found it later, in order to deflect any discussion of the clean-up.

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Pat, your theory about inexperienced agents who messed up and tried to cover for their mistake by placing the bullett on what they thought was a stretcher involved in the assassination is very interesting and IMO has a "ring of truth" to it.

Do you think that perhaps CE399 was the bullet that hit JFK in the back and then came out perhaps even when he was being placed on the stretcher?

Is it possible that a bullet that has gone an inch or two into a body can just fall out?

What is your take that there was no blood or human tissue found on CE399, if my recollection of the evidence is correct? Does that say that CE399 hit neither JFK nor Connally?

I assume you agree with my criticism of Buglioso for ignoring the statements of Tomlinson that he found the bullet on a stretcher not involved in the assassination?

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My comments in burgundy.

Cliff, thank you for your quick and helpful response.

Re #1, most interesting! Do you have references to that?

Of course. I cited this in your "And the Answers Are:" thread.

From autopsy-attendee FBI SA Francis O'Neill's sworn affidavit:

(quote on)

Some discussion did occur concerning the disintegration of the bullet. A general

feeling existed that a soft-nosed bullet struck JFK. There was discussion concerning

the back wound that the bullet could have been a "plastic" type or an "Ice" (sic)

bullet, one which dissolves after contact.

(quote off)

From autopsy-attendee FBI SA James Sibert's sworn affidavit:

(quote on)

The doctors also discussed a possible deflection of the bullet in the body caused

by striking bone. Consideration was also given to a type of bullet which fragments

completely....Following discussion among the doctors relating to the back injury, I

left the autopsy room to call the FBI Laboratory and spoke with Agent Chuch (sic)

Killion. I asked if he could furnish any information regarding a type of bullet that

would almost completely fragmentize (sic).

(quote off)

I also think your point about the "first day recollections" is quite good

I'm of the opinion that 95% of the first day recollections are credible.

Re #2, as many may be aware, Gerry Hemming claims there was a gunman firing from the west window of the sixth floor of the TSND, aimining ONLY at Connally. He does not believe anyone was shooting at JFK from the east window.

Has any expert opined whether Connally's wounds could have come from the west window given his position in SS100 at the time? Would he have been hit in the front or the rear?

Also do I correctly read the new challenge to the NAA that there could have been a group on MC bullets with the same composition? Does this mean, then, that the fragments in JC came from a MC bullet, whether or not it was the bullet that first hit JFK?

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Well when Tomlinson was deposed by--guess who--during the WC hearings, he certainly seemed a LOT less sure where he found CE399 than he did on the 1988 Nova show:

Mr. Specter. Now, just before we started this deposition, before I placed you under oath and before the court reporter started to take down my questions and your answers, you and I had a brief talk, did we not?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. And at the time we started our discussion, it was your recollection at that point that the bullet came off of stretcher A, was it not?

Mr. Tomlinson. B

Mr. Specter. Pardon me, stretcher B, but it was stretcher A that you took off of the elevator.

Mr. Tomlinson. I believe that’s right.

Mr. Specter. But there is no question but that at the time we started our discussion a few minutes before the court reporter started to take it down, that your best recollection was that it was stretcher A which came off of the elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes, I believe that it was—yes.

Mr. Specter. Have you been interviewed about this matter by any other Federal representative?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Who interviewed you about it?

Mr. Tomlinson. I don’t remember the name of either one of them, but one was the FBI and one was the Secret Service man.

Mr. Specter. How many times did the FBI interview you?

Mr. Tomlinson. Once.

Mr. Specter. How many times did the Secret Service interview you?

Mr. Tomlinson. Once.

Mr. Specter. When did the FBI interview you?

Mr. Tomlinson. I believe they were the first to do it.

Mr. Specter. Approximately when was that?

Mr. Tomlinson. I think that was the latter part of November.

Mr. Specter. And when did the Secret Service interview you?

Mr. Tomlinson. Approximately a week later, the first part of December.

Mr. Specter. Now, do you recollect what the FBI man asked you about?

Mr. Tomlinson. Just about where I found the bullet.

Mr. Specter. Did he ask you about these stretchers?

Mr. Tomlinson. Well, he asked me about the stretchers, yes, just about the same thing we’ve gone over here.

Mr. Specter. What did the Secret Service man ask you about?

Mr. Tomlinson. Approximately the same thing, only, we’ve gone into more detail here.

Mr. Specter. What did you tell the Secret Service man about which stretcher you took off of the elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. I told him that I was not sure, and I am not—I’m not sure of it, but as I said, I would be going against the oath which I took a while ago, because I am definitely not sure.

Mr. Specter. Do you remember if you told the Secret Service man which stretcher you thought you took off of the elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. Well, we talked about taking a stretcher off of the elevator. but when it comes down on an oath, I wouldn’t say for sure, I really don’t remember.

Mr. Specter. And do you recollect whether or not you told the Secret Service man which stretcher you took off of the elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. What do you mean?

Mr. Specter. You say you can’t really take an oath today to be sure whether it was stretcher A or stretcher B that you took off the elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. Well, today or any other day, I’m just not sure of it, whether it was A or B that I took off.

Mr. Specter. Well, has your recollection always been the same about the situation, that is, today, and when you talked to the Secret Service man and when you talked to the FBI man?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes; I told him that I wasn’t sure.

Mr. Specter. So, what you told the Secret Service man was just about the same thing as you have told me today?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Specter. When I first started to ask you about this, Mr. Tomlinson, you initially identified stretcher A as the one which came off of the elevator car?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes; I think it’s just like that.

Mr. Specter. And, then, when—

Mr. Tomlinson (interrupting). Here’s the deal—I rolled that thing off, we got a call, and went to second floor, picked the man up and brought him down. He went on over across, to clear out of the emergency area, but across from it, and picked up two pints of, I believe it was, blood. He told me to hold for him, he had to get right back to the operating room, so I held, and the minute he hit there, we took off for the second floor and I came back to the ground. Now, I don’t know how many people went through that—I don’t know how many people hit them—I don’t know anything about what could have happened to them in between the time I was gone, and I made several trips before I discovered the bullet on the end of it there.

Mr. Specter. You think, then, that this could have been either, you took out of the elevator as you sit here at this moment, or you just can’t be sure?

Mr. Tomlinson. It could be, but I can’t be positive or positively sure—I think it was A, but I’m not sure.

Mr. Specter. That you took off of the elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes.

Mr. Specter. Now, before I started to ask you questions under oath, which have been taken down here, I told you. did I not, that the Secret Service man wrote a report where he said that the bullet was found on the stretcher which you took off of the elevator—I called that to your attention, didn’t I?

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes; you told me that.

Mr. Specter. Now, after I tell you that, does that have any effect on refreshing your recollection of what you told the Secret Service man?

Mr. Tomlinson. No; it really doesn’t—it really doesn’t.

Mr. Specter. So, would it be a fair summary to say that when I first started to talk to you about it, your first view was that the stretcher you took off of the elevator was stretcher A, and then I told you that the Secret Service man said it was—that you had said the stretcher you took off of the elevator was the one that you found the bullet off, and when we talked about the whole matter and talked over the entire situation, you really can’t be completely sure about which stretcher you took off of the elevator, because you didn’t push the stretcher that you took off of the elevator right against the wall at first?

Mr. Tomlinson. That’s right.

Mr. Specter. And, there was a lot of confusion that day, which is what you told me before?

Mr. Tomlinson. Absolutely. And now, honestly, I don’t remember telling him definitely—I know we talked about it, and I told him that it could have been. Now, he might have drawed his own conclusion on that.

Mr. Specter. You told the Secret Service agent that you didn’t know where—

Mr. Tomlinson (interrupting). He asked me if it could have been brought down from the second floor.

Mr. Specter. You got the stretcher from where the bullet came from, whether it was brought down from the second floor?

Mr. Tomlinson. It could have been—I’m not sure whether it was A I took off.

Mr. Specter. But did you tell the Secret Service man which one you thought it was you took off of the elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. I’m not clear on that—whether I absolutely made a positive statement to that effect.

Mr. Specter. You told him that it could have been B you took off of the elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. That’s right.

Mr. Specter. But you don’t remember whether you told him it was A you took off of the elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. I think it was A—I’m not really sure.

Mr. Specter. Which did you tell the Secret Service agent—that you thought it was A that you took off of the elevator?

Mr. Tomlinson. Really, I couldn’t be real truthful in saying I told him this or that.

Mr. Specter. You just don’t remember for sure whether you told him you thought it was A or not?

Mr. Tomlinson. No, sir; I really don’t remember. I’m not accustomed to being questioned by the Secret Service and the FBI and by you and they are writing down everything, I mean.

Mr. Specter. That’s all right. I understand exactly what you are saying and I appreciate it and I really just want to get your best recollection.

We understand it isn’t easy to remember all that went on, on a day like November 22d, and that a man’s recollection is not perfect like every other part of a man, but I want you to tell me just what you remember, and that’s the best you can do today, and I appreciate that, and so does the President’s Commission, and that’s all we can ask a man.

Mr. Tomlinson. Yes, I’m going to tell you all I can, and I’m not going to tell you something I can’t lay down and sleep at night with either.

I REPEAT MY MAIN POINT: VB SHOULD HAVE MENTIONED THE CONTROVERSY ABOUT WHERE CE399 WAS FOUND, AND WHY IT WAS OF SUCH CRITICAL IMPORTANCE, AND HE THEN COULD HAVE USED TOMLINSON's WC TESTIMONY TO MINIMIZE THE CONFLICT.

MOREOVER DOES IT NOT SEEM QUITE CLEAR FROM THE FIRST FEW QUESTIONS THAT TOMLINSON SOFTENED HIS MEMORY RE WHERE HE FOUND THE BULLET AFTER SPECTOR HAD A "BRIEF TALK" WITH HIM BEFORE HIS TESTIMONY STARTED?

SPECTOR'S "BRIEF TALK" WITH TOMLINSON MAY HAVE CHANGED THE COURSE OF HISTORY!!

******************************************************************************

"MOREOVER DOES IT NOT SEEM QUITE CLEAR FROM THE FIRST FEW QUESTIONS THAT TOMLINSON SOFTENED HIS MEMORY RE WHERE HE FOUND THE BULLET AFTER SPECTOR HAD A "BRIEF TALK" WITH HIM BEFORE HIS TESTIMONY STARTED?

SPECTOR'S "BRIEF TALK" WITH TOMLINSON MAY HAVE CHANGED THE COURSE OF HISTORY!!!"

Well, hell yeah! And, how about throwing in a few licks like, BADGERING A WITNESS? HARRASSING A WITNESS? How about, COERCING A WITNESS ABOUT TO BE DEPOSED BY POSSIBLY INTIMATING A THREAT OF PERJURY, ON SAID WITNESS' PART, IF HIS DEPOSITION DIDN'T COMPLETELY JIBE WITH THE ONE HE GAVE TO THE S.S., or the F.B.I.? This, of course, resulted in a case of Alzheimer's due to the sheer fear of being jailed, for perjuring himself.

Specter and Tomlinson reminded me of Bud Abbott and Lou Costello in their skit, "Who's On First?"

Specter is a xxxx and a faker. He got where he is today by lying his ass off.

Your femme Nikita :box

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Re #2, as many may be aware, Gerry Hemming claims there was a gunman firing from the west window of the sixth floor of the TSND, aimining ONLY at Connally. He does not believe anyone was shooting at JFK from the east window.

Hemming spun this very yarn to me. He had a Skorzeny SS Rat Line sniper doing the deed with a weapon "on full automatic."

Why, Hemming claimed to have asked him, was Connally targeted?

[thick German accent] "He didn't bid high enough."

Eine kleine fruitcake, if you ask me.

Karl

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Pat, your theory about inexperienced agents who messed up and tried to cover for their mistake by placing the bullett on what they thought was a stretcher involved in the assassination is very interesting and IMO has a "ring of truth" to it.

Do you think that perhaps CE399 was the bullet that hit JFK in the back and then came out perhaps even when he was being placed on the stretcher?

Is it possible that a bullet that has gone an inch or two into a body can just fall out?

What is your take that there was no blood or human tissue found on CE399, if my recollection of the evidence is correct? Does that say that CE399 hit neither JFK nor Connally?

I assume you agree with my criticism of Buglioso for ignoring the statements of Tomlinson that he found the bullet on a stretcher not involved in the assassination?

Tim, while LNers insist their case is built squarely on the evidence, and without speculation, they are, in fact, as guilty of speculation as the worst conspiracy theorist. They speculate that the bag was in fact long enough to hold the rifle, even though the only eyewitnesses to see the bag swore that, to their recollection, it was far too short. They also speculate that the bullet was found on Connally's stretcher, when everyone to handle the stretcher prior to Tomlinson saw no such bullet, and Tomlinson was virtually certain he found the bullet on another stretcher.

While some might conclude by one or more of them planting the bullet that Hickey and Kinney were part of a plot to cover up the evidence for conspiracy, I have come to disagree. In their statements, both Kinney and Hickey described the shots in a manner inconsistent with their being fired by a bolt action rifle. They each recalled the last two shots coming right on top of each other. Ditto Kellerman and Greer. I just don't see them saying as much if they were trying to make people think Oswald acted alone. Kinney and Kellerman's widow, if I recall, would later admit they always suspected a conspiracy. Their original statements bear this out.

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Cliff, thanks for that posting. Great stuff indeed.

Pat, thanks also for your analysis.

I've read more of VB on CE399 and its possible planting. He makes some good points that if Oswald was a patsy and some sinister force had used his rifle (or a rifle they had falsely connected to him), left the rifle and spent shells in the sniper's nest, etc., plus of course they would have also had to fake the famous backyard photos, their "frame" of LHO was quite complete. Why would they then risk getting caught by having a member of the conspiracy "plant" a bullet (whether it was our friend Jack Ruby or someone else) in the hospital? Had the "planter" been caught he (she?) could have started to topple their whole house of cards. Plus, VB argues, if JFK and/or JC were in fact shot with the MC, how could the conspirators not be concerned the planted bullet might be one too many? There is logic to these arguments and they might tend to indicate that Pat's theory is correct.

But if I can expand this scope of this thread a bit: the whole thing about CE399 is puzzling if, as I have read, there was no blood or human tissue on it. Even aside from its "relatively" pristine condition, how could it have penetrated JFK's back, let alone wounded both JFK AND JC (if you assume the ludicrous SBT) and have no blood or tissue on it? On the other hand, how could a conspirator of any amount of intelligence believe he (or she) could plant such a bullet and anyone would believe it had wounded anyone?

I assume that LNers have (and the HSCA had) some theory re why CE399 had no blood or human tissue on it but it seems quite illogical to me. And on the other hand why would a conspirator plant such a bullet?

(I don't think anyone has yet answered this question (which might require a doctor to answer): Could a bullet enter Kennedy's back a few inches and then just "fall out" of his body (perhaps in the limousine as Pat seems to suggest))?

Given the condition of the bullet, the most logical explanation seems to be that it was the one that hit JFK in the back, penetrated a few inches and then did fall out (whether in the limousine or on JFK's stretcher) but I am still troubled if it indeed had no blood or tissue on it.

Edited by Tim Gratz
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The problem with the problems with CE 399 is lack of context.

Dallas that day was as controlled an environment as conspirators possibly could have wished for. Including Parkland.

Think about it. If you saw a bullet being planted, what were your options?

You couldn't call the cops. The bad guys were the cops.

In terms of its value as evidence, the planted bullet was as good as it needed to be.

It still is.

It's official.

Our righteous, self-indulgent protestations to the contrary notwithstanding.

Charles

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Cliff, thanks for that posting. Great stuff indeed.

Pat, thanks also for your analysis.

I've read more of VB on CE399 and its possible planting. He makes some good points that if Oswald was a patsy and some sinister force had used his rifle (or a rifle they had falsely connected to him), left the rifle and spent shells in the sniper's nest, etc., plus of course they would have also had to fake the famous backyard photos, their "frame" of LHO was quite complete. Why would they then risk getting caught by having a member of the conspiracy "plant" a bullet (whether it was our friend Jack Ruby or someone else) in the hospital? Had the "planter" been caught he (she?) could have started to topple their whole house of cards. Plus, VB argues, if JFK and/or JC were in fact shot with the MC, how could the conspirators not be concerned the planted bullet might be one too many? There is logic to these arguments and they might tend to indicate that Pat's theory is correct.

But if I can expand this scope of this thread a bit: the whole thing about CE399 is puzzling if, as I have read, there was no blood or human tissue on it. Even aside from its "relatively" pristine condition, how could it have penetrated JFK's back, let alone wounded both JFK AND JC (if you assume the ludicrous SBT) and have no blood or tissue on it? On the other hand, how could a conspirator of any amount of intelligence believe he (or she) could plant such a bullet and anyone would believe it had wounded anyone?

I assume that LNers have (and the HSCA had) some theory re why CE399 had no blood or human tissue on it but it seems quite illogical to me. And on the other hand why would a conspirator plant such a bullet?

(I don't think anyone has yet answered this question (which might require a doctor to answer): Could a bullet enter Kennedy's back a few inches and then just "fall out" of his body (perhaps in the limousine as Pat seems to suggest))?

Given the condition of the bullet, the most logical explanation seems to be that it was the one that hit JFK in the back, penetrated a few inches and then did fall out (whether in the limousine or on JFK's stretcher) but I am still troubled if it indeed had no blood or tissue on it.

Tim, I'm not sure the bullet should have had blood on it. It was not found in situ. It was handled by a number of men, and carried around in their pockets for hours. I think John Hunt found that the FBI did briefly test it for blood, but that their tests was not as extensive as it could have been. In any event, if the bullet was found in the clean-up, it would probably have been wiped clean of blood and fingerprints.

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Charles wrote:

The problem with the problems with CE 399 is lack of context.

Dallas that day was as controlled an environment as conspirators possibly could have wished for. Including Parkland.

Think about it. If you saw a bullet being planted, what were your options?

You couldn't call the cops. The bad guys were the cops.

In terms of its value as evidence, the planted bullet was as good as it needed to be.

It still is.

It's official.

How does one respond to this?

If I recall right. Tomlinson found the bullet within an hour after the accident.

Is it your position that every member of the Parkland staff was part of the conspiracy?

Or is it simply your position that within hours after the assassination, every member of the Parkland staff somehow knew that the "cops" were the "bad guys"?

Do you mean every SINGLE member of the DPD was in on the conspiracy?

By the way, who DID Tomlinson give the bullet to, after all?

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